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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • thecatthecat Member Posts: 535
    I only have experience with one Soob dealer - Jones Bel Air Soob. The salesman I dealt with (no longer there) was a bit of a boob but hey, he was a SALESMAN! Whadaya expect? Service dept has been well above expectations. IMHO service is truly where the "rubber meets the road".

    Now, having said all that, is there room for improvement? Sure, but Jones does a pretty good job of representing SOA.

    -hutch
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I have had bad problems with most subaru dealers service departments. The sales staff at my dealer is outstanding Mark and Ira @ SI Subaru are great. Dealers I've had problems with as far as service departments:
    SI Subaru (NYC)
    Hillside Subaru (NJ)
    Goldstein Subaru (Upstate NY)
    Bay Ridge Subaru (NYC)
    Beltway Subaru (NYC)

    Good service:
    Flemington Subaru (NJ)

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I dunno how the canadians can consider the OB an SUV, at best it's a wagon. Of course it's gonna handle better than the other ones in the running. It's lighter, smaller, and holds much less.

    It would be like comparing a porsche to a caddy Eldorado, yes they are both 2 door cars, but are not at all in the same class.

    While I'm no Durango fan, you can put the OB in the back of the Durango and take it off roading where the OB could never go, not to mention Towing capacity...

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Hey, shouldn't his be in the dealer forum? :-)
    My wife and I had a very good dealer buying experience in Central NJ. OTOH, the service dept. was bad and I had to call SoA because they were giving me different stories about fixing my clutch. Don't know if it's a coincidence but, the service manager and advisor are no longer there. I've had great service experiences at Somerset as well as Flemington Subaru.
    Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Farrish Subaru: No. Pushy, bait and switch. An Olds dealer with a Soob franchise they don't deserve to have. Service was OK (I installed cruise there) but didn't go beyond expectations.

    Fitzgerald Subaru: Yes. No haggling, low prices, excellent treatment and service. Will go there next time without a doubt, for service and sales.

    Remember, state laws prevent Subaru from selling direct in most places.

    -juice
  • yellowbikedonyellowbikedon Member Posts: 228
    Having taken delivery of my LL Bean model last week, here's a few comments:

    I would recommend Liberty Subaru (Libertyville, IL) without reservation. The staff, especially Elmer Hansen, have thorough knowledge of the marque, don't waste customer's time, and offer fair pricing. The Subaru techs (Elisha and Axel) are very experienced, like the brand and do their best to provide fast, reliable service. A pleasure. I also like the idea of being able to get a "complimentary" wash whenever I stop in. A nice touch which demonstrates Liberty Subaru's regard for its customers. The dealership sells about 40 Subarus monthly (in addition to Jeep, Buick, Mazda, Hyundai and Suzuki) and recognizes the contribution of Subaru sales to its overall profit structure.

    Filled the gas tank for the first time yesterday since taking delivery. Average mpg was 19.4. Miles included a bit of highway (80 miles) and normal city driving with temperatures ranging from upper 30s to mid teens.

    My impressions of the LL Bean model are most favorable. I am comparing the new wagon to the '96 Outback which was sold in trade. First: I cannot get over how much quieter this wagon is to the old one. It is now possible to talk in soft voices inside even at highway speeds. The '96 had only 44,000 miles and it wasn't noisey, so I thought!

    I do like the new ergonomics--it's easy to read the clock with just a glance downward, the climate control information is plainly visable and easily changed and the radio information is displayed in large characters. I know some may not care for the dash layout but I do feel significant changes have been made for the better when comparing to the former model.

    The 8 way power seat is a welcomed addition. It is not difficult to find proper seating positions for me as well as my wife with ease! I would have liked a memory setting but I guess I can keep my wife in her Impreza! Maybe not, for her car is a "stick" and I still get a charge out of going through the gears and I'd hate to be shut out! The two-toned leather seating is really classy as it the Momo steering wheel. I thought I'd prefer a leather wrapped wheel but find myself pleased with this touch. The LL Bean logos are NOT offensive. It seems as if much care was given to the execution of this.

    There is a distinct "vault" like thunk when the doors are closed. This and the basic "tightness" of the new design demonstrate the integrity of the body structure. It's pleasant!

    I have had my share of 0-60 fast cars (Alfa Romeos, Austin Healeys, etc.) and at this stage of life, I really don't care if it takes a second or two more to reach 60 mph. What I did want (and got) was faster merge acceleration. The H6 is no slouch and, in my opinion, is more than adequate for every day use.

    When we relocate to Florida next April, our Subarus will join the Mercedes, Acuras, BMWs, Lincoln Town Cars, Mercury Grand Marquis, and of course, Lexus, in a "community" of some 1,600 families. To the best of my knowledge, only one other Subaru (Outback Sport) is there. It's fun to be "different" and, anyway, at this time in my life, who cares what the country club set thinks?

    Sorry for the long post.

    Don
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    Call my OB what you want and call your Trooper what you want. The fact that my OB can handle off-road better than an average Explorer (the sales std for SUV's, BTW) tells me that the OB is more than just a "station wagon". If I wanted the gas mileage and towing capacity of your Trooper than I would have bought it. Truth is my OB fit "my" version of a SUV lifestyle better than other SUV's and certainly better than your Trooper. It's a mute point to me what the OB is called or how much of a value your Trooper is.

    Stephen
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I don't think you have the same angle of approach/departure as the Exploder, which isn't considered a serious SUV anywhere but in the US. What I was trying to say was that of course the OB is going to handle better than a truck SUV, just the sheer size will mean it will handle better. I just prefer comparing apples to apples, rather than getting all excited that an OB beat out much larger truck based SUVs in a handling competition! Now if you told me it out handled the volvo equivilent or the audi equivilent (the names escape me now) that would impress me far more than the competition it had in the Canadian review.

    Hey I almost bought an OB or a GT, but it didn't fit my needs, so I got the Trooper, and kept my XT6. To each his own.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The OB easily outhandles the Volvo XC. Take my word for it. Both ride and handling are at least a step or two above the dramamine-required Volvo.

    Haven't tasted the Audi Allroad Quattro, but the price suggests it's Grey Poupon and I'm a French's type of guy.

    Besides, Car (an Englich car rag) liked the Forester turbo just as much, and for half the price.

    -juice
  • tlbistlbis Member Posts: 25
    I never bought my OB thinking it was anything but a wagon (with AWD of course). It is classified as a passenger car/wagon. Not an SUV. I purchased it because of value and my needs. Can it do light off roading? Sure. So can a GT and L for that matter. (my Acura could too minus the exhaust). The Trooper is an SUV. Those who purchase it probably based their decision on value (and a good one at that) and needs. As Mike says, to each his own. One makes purchase decisions based on what's best you and your family.


    Tom
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    The Allroad is a nice vehicle and structurally, it's not a regular A6 Avant. For one thing, the floorpan is (I think) two or three times thicker apparently because Audi thinks that it may be taken off-road...not likely. While it is nice, it is also very expensive and I'm not too big of a fan of the gray body cladding. But, at least it doesn't have that permanent black car bra that the Volvo XC does!

    Steven, what's this I hear about chances of snow in your area (as well as my) weekend forecast!? ;-) :-)

    Drew/aling
    Edmunds.com Townhall host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, the XC's bra is "slate" (dark blue really) or dark brown, no black is available. I agree that it looks awful.

    The Allroad's suspension sounds trick, but XT's with air suspensions require a $1500 rebuild after a decade or so. And Soobs are way more reliable (and cheaper) than Audis!

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    I don't know if comparing decade old air suspension technology to the Audi's (Conti-Teves) built brand new state-of-the-art air suspension system is a good idea. However, I do agree that if something goes wrong, it could be expensive to fix. I guess only time will tell.

    Check this out:
    http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/aq0612/content.shtml

    Drew/aling
    Edmunds.com Townhall host
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    I'm definitely heading for the hills if we do get a bit of the white stuff. There's an empty parking lot on Mt. Seymour with Rufus's name on it. :)

    Ross
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    LOL! I hope Rufus doesn't write his name in yellow...heh heh

    I headed up to Seymour last weekend to (briefly) test out the Acura MDX's VTM-4 AWD system. There wasn't a lot of snow, but enough for me to get the feel of the system. Overall, I'm not particularly impressed. For the price range, give me Subaru's VDC/VTD AWD system anyday. Heck I like Subaru's standard non-VDC full-time AWD system better! The MDX's system doesn't even have a centre diffy, as far as I can tell!

    Drew/aling
    Edmunds.com Townhall host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, that just goes to show how expensive the Audi will be to fix, if ever required. True, original owners aren't likely to keep 'em that long, but it could hurt resale.

    Actually, I'm just bustin' on the Allroad because I'll never be able to afford one! 250hp and 5.6-8.2" of ground clearance sounds kind of sweet!

    Still, the 2.7T engine will do more damage in a lighter A6 Avant, or even S4 Avant.

    But show a WRX wagon so I can lust after a Soob!

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    The 4x4abc.com site is hosted by a fellow ML320 owner and an expert off-roader. Let's just say that he knows his stuff very well and has written books about the JGC and M-class. Heck, even MB asks for his expertise sometimes.

    http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/tractionturn2.html
    http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/tractionturn2.html

    Be warned Mike , Harold is not a fan of TOD systems such as the ones in the Trooper and the Acura MDX. His explanation and comparisons are in the website.

    Drew/aling
    Edmunds.com Townhall host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looks like interesting reading. I'm gonna check it out.

    Check out the 2002 Passat preview, listed on Edmunds home page.

    Looks like US customers will not get the W8 engine, nor will it get the nav system or a HID option.

    It's kind of ironic, but because VW cannot step on Audi's toes, that limits what VW can do with the Passat, while the VDC has no such limits.

    New cupholders! Mike Smith - they've heard you!

    My Miata has those chrome ringed guages. I like 'em.

    4Motion still auto only. Subaru can still be the first to offer a manual 6 cylinder.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru does offer a new coupe, as is rumored... please keep it usable for four real adults (good rear headroom and rear legroom) like the current coupe, and not like the new Celica.

    One more wish (noted many, MANY, posts back), make it a 4-door coupe, with two small doors like those found on extended-cab pickups.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    in AutoWeek that VW will be offering two different Passat models. The current one, and an updated version with a new face and other updates. They are BOTH going to be called 2001 models. Not 2001.5. Not 2002.

    Can you spell: C O N F U S I O N ?

    Bob
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    Drew,

    I hope we get some. The weatherperson (how's that for PC) is saying maybe Sunday or Monday. This AM was really foggy but the temp wasn't too cold. I went out for (you guessed it) a latte at lunch and the temp had dropped about 8 degrees. BTW, I'm going to Whistler for some skiing from Feb 7th to 11th but I would like a little practice driving in some white stuff first.

    Mike,

    I re-read my post to you. Wow, maybe it's just me but I was a little "tight" on my response, I apologize. I do, however, get tired of all the acronyms given to vehicles especially when said vehicle may not fit nicely in the letter box. It's kind of like people trying to label everything and somehow everything is supposed to conform to that label. Ok, I'm done now! :-)

    Stephen
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My Autoweek usually arrives on the Friday before the publishing date. Lucky duck.

    Are they referring to the Passat Plus? Often an older line of cars is sold as the "Classic", like the Sentra was for a while in Canada. Also, the Jeep Cherokee was supposed to go away when big brother arrived, but it didn't.

    Drew: I like that web site (4x4abc), but I can't help but think he's a little biased (very pro Benz). He never mentions the possibility of baked brakes, affordability, or the lack of smooth engagement.

    Still, a good read.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that both models would be labeled the same. :~/

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Drew, of course it's "state of the art" today! The XT6 in canada actually had an adjustment just like the All-road so that you could manually raise it up for off-road/snow use! But in 10-12 years I'm sure the all-road will have all kinds of problems. The rubber that is used in air-suspensions (Lincolns, and a number of other manufacturers use em) eventually breaks down and when it gets dried and cracked you'll need to replace em. Currently I'm converting my XT6 over. I need 1 airbag but I'll outline the parts that could go (and are likely to go) on the suspension:

    Air-Bags (4) @ $350each
    Compressor @ $300
    Computer Controller @ $400
    Check Valves (4) @ $90
    Air-tubes ?

    Grand Total before labor: $2460

    Ouch! Makes my $450 in '97 Legacy 2.5GT Front Springs and Struts and '88 XT6 rear springs and shocks seem cheap.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No problem. I just like to drop a dose of reality into the subaru forums (I got totally flamed on I-club when I suggested that the Impreza was a child of the XT6 and that the Impreza wasn't the be-all-end-all of cars) Sometimes we all get caught up in the subaru mania and don't realize there are other cars out there. I always say to someone, even if they have a yugo "Do you like your car?" if the answer is "Yes" then that is good enough for me, cause everyone has to be happy with their own cars.

    -mike
  • e_l_greene_l_green Member Posts: 30
    Re: VDC: I agree that it's a good technology. However, with only 8,000 of them sold in the U.S., it will be a maintenance nightmare (from a parts cost standpoint) 4 years down the road when the warranty runs out. Yes, Subarus are reliable. But things do break or wear out over time. The air suspensions were good technology too, but the fact that they were installed on a very small number of cars is why they are also very expensive to fix when they break today. The point being that if Subaru is going to introduce innovative technology, they have to do it on a major model line and for a number of years so that the parts suppliers and the junkyards can accumulate enough parts so that these cars will be maintainable 4 years down the road if something breaks.

    Re: Subaru and the former SAAB market: Subaru is a natural there, and the new 6-cylinder Outbacks take Subaru even further into that market. I do think that a slightly larger car, powered by that 6-cylinder engine, would bring back some of those former SAAB owners who have (reluctantly) moved to a SUV because SAAB has gone to the pits lately.

    Re: Subaru and the SUV market: I don't think that Subaru is capable of building a "me-too" car. If Subaru ever decided to build a "real" SUV (as vs. the Forester, which is a tall Impreza), it would immediately be the most technically advanced small SUV on the market. Subaru's combination of 4-wheel ABS disk brakes, limited slip rear differential, and the most sophisticated AWD system on the planet, as well as the most powerful small SUV engine on the planet (I don't consider the new Hyundai and Ford 6 cylinder SUV's to be "small", that would be territory for an SUV Outback to tread). Subaru's technologies are unmatched by any other small SUV on the market.

    The problem is that Subaru doesn't have an SUV. Subaru has a tall station wagon. It's nice to hear that Subaru is selling 50,000 of these per year. Foresters are good cars. I own one, mostly because I wanted something with more room than an Impreza but the Outback appeared a bit underpowered to me (400 pounds heavier than Forester, same engine? Yeah right). The other small SUV's were even more underpowered, e.g. a Suzuki Grand Viagra has a 165hp engine (same as Forester), but in a car that porkishly tips the scales at 3800 pounds (vs 3200 pounds for the Forester) and which manages to guzzle gas at a rate of 18 miles per gallon. I did not need the offroad capabilities of something like the Suzuki, and appreciated the technical excellence of the Forester despite its rather frumpy looks (actually, the 2001 facelift is pretty good from the rear, though the front looks even frumpier than ever).

    But I'm a minority of those who look at small SUV's. Many of them wouldn't know technical excellence if it hit them in the face. Like the guy in the main conference who ended up with a CRV because his girlfriend liked the way it looked and complained that the Forester "looks like a station wagon". A car that both a guy and his girlfriend could agree upon (geez, I'm sure I'll get flamed now for saying that most women choose cars for shallow reasons, but that's been my experience, so flame away!) would have resolved that problem. Remember, most SUV's are driven by women. Chrysler "focus groups" show that "jack it up in the air!" is a common request of these women. A hunkered-down Forester is technologically a better car than something like a Honda CRV or Ford Escape, but it doesn't have that "jack it up in the air" look to it that these women want. And the guys would appreciate real skid plates, please, instead of that plastic monstrosity under the front! (Yeah, we might occasionally want to take the SO's Forester out into the national forest to go camping, and those rough forest service roads have ROCKS on them at times, and it'd be great to know that all that'd happen if we ran over one would be a dent in a skidplate, rather than a fractured oil pan).

    Now that I've thoroughly offended both the women and the Subaru sporting advocates, I guess I'll sign off (grin).

    -Eric
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Drew,
    I read through his stuff. He unfortunatly and incorrectly lumped the Isuzu TOD system into the category where no power is sent to the non-main drive axle until slippage occurs. Since my TOD has a guage that tells me how much power is going to each axle, as soon as my car is in motion, i have 30%-40% power to the front axle, which means that power is being routed there before slippage occurs. Shall I e-mail him and correct him? :)

    -mike
  • e_l_greene_l_green Member Posts: 30
    Here in the Phoenix area, all of the Subaru dealers are primarily in the business of selling some other kind of car, and the Subarus are shoved over in the corner of the showroom and the sales folks don't know too much about them. Had that experience at Pitre and Camelback. Never made it up to Bell, because both Pitre and Camelback had very good prices (they didn't know what they were selling, but were willing to sell it cheaply, so ...). Pitre is mostly Isuzu, BTW, while Camelback is mostly Volkswagon. I don't remember what Bell's main line is (I think it's either Pontiac or Buick). No dealer in Phoenix ever advertises Subaru in the newspaper, the way that, e.g., all the Volkswagon dealers do (even if they have nothing on sale at the moment, they're sure to have that New Beetle ad in the paper encouraging people to come on down and see the new Volkswagons).

    Camelback VW is a very cramped, old, and somewhat shabby-looking place, and customer parking is almost impossible to find. Pitre is slightly better there, they have a number of customer parking spaces back behind near the service department. They have a very weird layout, but that's because of the layout of the automall they're located in.

    Camelback's service department has a shuttle service so that you can drop off the car there at 7am and the shuttle will get you to work by 8am most of the time, and will pick you up when the work is done. This was one reason I bought from Camelback rather than Pitre (the other being that they had an automatic-transmission white Forester S+ in stock at the time and Pitre did not). I haven't bought any parts from Camelback yet. I bought the front wind deflector from Pitre because they were back-ordered everywhere else and Pitre had one in stock. The parts guy gave me a steep discount after I showed him what price the Internet guys would sell it to me for. (And what's with the size of the box that thing comes in anyhow?!).

    All in all, the Subaru dealerships here in Phoenix seem to do a reasonable job considering that Subarus are definitely a sideline for them. I didn't have to beg them to sell me a car, and the parts departments do appear to know that they sell Subarus and stock a few of the more popular accessories (Pitre apparently more of them than Camelback, probably because Pitre has a bit more space than Camelback's rather cramped quarters). And really, given the marginal nature of Subaru in the Phoenix area (this is big Jeep country, every other car in the parking lot is a Jeep), it's hard to fault them.

    -Eric
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Yes! Harold is very friendly and always open to discussion. Go right ahead and contact him if you wish. I'd be interested in what he thinks...I would think not to mention that you own a Trooper initially though.

    Drew/aling
    Edmunds.com Townhall host
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Eric, I just can't let posts <193</A>> <233</A>> stand without comment. 193Outstanding!Clubs Very interesting read. Nothing to add but kudos.

    Brian, Thanks for the production numbers.

    Juice, Glad I was able to influence the design of the VW cup holders ;) <225</A>>

    Alan, <203</A>> Tischer Subaru in Silver Spring, MD. My buying experience in 91 was deplorable (bait & switch). Bought again in 00 because I was willing to give them a 2nd chance after 9 years, they are a local dealer (I'm old fashioned -- support your local retailer, or at least give them a chance to compete), they are the 233closestClubs dealer, and they were a hundred or so less (see my profile). Tischer Subaru is 30 feet from Tischer BMW/Audi/Porsche (what a delicious combo) in an auto sales park. A separate Tischer dealership sells Volkswagen.

    The salesman was almost too aloof for me. He didn't try to up or cross-sell me (good) but didn't seem interested in providing specifications about the Outback, Legacy L & GT (bad). Maybe he was taking the soft-sell approach to this enginerd, maybe he didn't know. I didn't come off as a know it all because I didn't (I ashamedly admit this was my pre-enthusiast phase of life). I would have preferred that he volunteer some specs. Since I went through a buying service, I had absolutely no haggling hassles.

    I also visited Fitzgerald Subaru, Rockville, MD. Dolly (no longer there) rode with me on Outback test drive and gently, thoughtfully delivered the specs (without distracting my driving), allowed me to digest them, and spooned me a few more. Afterward I told her she was the best salesperson I had encountered (didn't overload me with too much at once). They had no GT, so I had to go to Tischer. I let a buying service do the haggling. At the time I bought, Fitzgerald were the most expensive (even their web prices) by several hundred dollars.

    So I guess that means that the DC dealers need these improvements:

    o Stock one of every model; this is rarely the case.

    o Salespeople need to provide specs on every model. They don't have to memorize every nuance but a quick reference sheet or card would help them do their job.

    o Brochures that summarize the marketspeak in a table. For example, let's say you didn't know what the difference is between a Legacy and an Outback (A: one inch clearance, cladding, wheels, amenities). How to find out? 1) Get a Legacy brochure 2) Get an Outback brochure 3) Convince your soul mate to read you specs while 4) you transcribe each to a Legacy L or Legacy GT column in the Outback brochure. Voila! A reference table from which to make comparisons. Hmm.. I wonder if SoA could do this for me (I know, I know, Paul Hogan was supposed to steer me toward or away from the OB before I walked in; all he did was create brand awareness for Australian cars ;) Oh no, an educated consumer is our worst nightmare! Get your brochures with the program Subaru, the modest erudite are your niche. :p

    o Stock one of every color; I know this isn't possible (yes, I'm one that has to have it in just the right color).

    o Loaners for service (Tischer does this). Convenience, convenience, convenience.

    I tried but I think Eric's posts are longer and have more useful content.

    ..Mike

    PS -- Did someone say 22522 HP ClubsSTANDARD203Clubs? BOOYA!

    ..Mike

  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Yo Drew, we posted within a minute of each other. Time for bed time, I'm splittin' wood in in 5 hours (gosh I feel so manly just thinking about it).

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • kostamojenkostamojen Member Posts: 55
    I liked the forester before, but after reading some of those stats you guys threw out, there isnt a small SUV I would buy other than the Forester! (I like the new Rav but its got like no room in the back!) Although, I'd get a WRX wagon over a Forester S (only model of Forester I would get) and get more power and still can go off-road :D

    Subie Dealers:
    Maita Subaru/Hyandai- (Fulton Road)
    This is where my mom got her GT Limited Sedan at... Very good dealership, a little on the pushy side but not enough to be offensive. I'm planning on getting my Impreza here :D

    Automall Subaru/Mazda- (Rosevill Automall, the worlds FIRST true Automall!)
    This is the closest subie dealer to me, just a couple minutes from here along with all the other dealers at the Automall...
    VERY annoying salesman (Is it me, or do the older Middle Easter salesman always tend to be VERY annoying? [Just stating observation, not trying to offend]) Very pushy dealership, wont get off your back.
    BUT, if you park at the BMW dealer next door and walk back towards their Garage, you can sneek into the Subie dealers back lot and check out the cars UN-disturbed :):)
    Ive also deviced a nice test route for the Dealers at the Automall that takes cars up a hill, around some twisty fast road, and on some lumpy road and back on the freeway...

    Gold Rush Subaru- (Auburn)
    This ones a little ways away, up I80 about 15 minutes. Great dealership, very laid back. Don't have too many cars though, but at least theyre not pushy...
    We ALMOST bought a car from them, but it was sold by the time we got back there (Red RS 4-door).
    They have THE BEST Test-drive route EVER!!!!! They have this hill right next to their lot, and a road that goes right down it at about 45 degrees. From there, you go to a mountain-like twisty 2 lane road where Subaru's excellent handling shows off :) Then you wrap around up a little ways to the freeway. From there, you get on the freeway and drive just a couple miles to an exit where you get off and go back around to the dealer... Its a PERFECT Route! I recomend people go there and test drive a car JUST for that purpose!
    We took 2 cars out for 3 laps each on it (Legacy and a Impreza RS), 1 lap for Me, my mom and my dad :D

    Florin Road Subaru- (South of Sacramento)
    This ones about 30 minutes from me. Not many cars there, and not that great of a dealer, but I would buy from them cause they weren't annoying.

    Fairfield Subaru/Mazda/Ford- (Fairfield, california)
    I put this one on this list despite that its no where near Sacramento cause of the LOW LOW prices they had on the WINDSHIELDS of their cars! Its about 45 minutes from Sac...
    We stoped by there a couple of times, and they dont have much in the way of Subarus cause they said "We dont sell too many". They had a Legacy Limited w/ manual for $23k on the WINDSHIELD! And a Impreza RS Sedan auto (white) for $19.5k on the WINDSHIELD!
    Needless to say, if they had the car we wanted, we would have bought from them for sure! They werent very annoying either :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mike: I thought you didn't have a fireplace?

    paisan brings up a good point. 5-6 years is nothing, talk to me when your car is 12 years old, like his. 12 years for an air bladder seems pretty good, actually.

    Should Soob make an SUV? Careful here, because they market their vehicles as safer because they meet more stringent car standards. To make a truck would be a bit hypocritical.

    It would also be expensive to create a new platform, so they'd likely get a GM or Isuzu platform.

    I say let the SIA partnership prosper, and let Isuzu sell the trucks. Noone steps on anyone else's toes that way.

    One correction: the Grand Viagra has 155hp, and does not match the Forester. The new Grand Viagra XL7 (sounds like a hyper-potent drug, no?) will have 170hp but a bit too much weight for even that kind of power.

    Women are actually very practical buyers, much less influenced by style than men. As a group they also earn less and spend less. Take a look, though. Auto Pacific breaks down demographics for us:

    Vehicle % of female owners
    Impreza 59
    Forester 55
    Legacy 49
    Outback 46
    Outback Sport 46
    Rodeo 45
    Trooper 30

    So the data tells the opposite story. Women prefer less expensive, smaller cars. They avoid tall SUVs at all costs.

    I agree that the Forester could be beefed up slightly, just don't make it a truck. Just us the Australian market low range, more power (always!), and your skid plate idea is brilliant.

    -juice
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    Dunno Juice... I consider myself an educated buyer, but if I don't like the styling or color, I just cannot get over it. Period. However, even if I really like the styling but practicality and/or reliability is not there (JGC), I don't buy either.

    As for statistics, most Forester drivers I see on the road are males, and almost every behemoth like Excursion/Suburban/Tahoe/Expedition is driven by a female.

    I think statistics of ownership is derived from the gender of the person who's 1st on the title. My husband is listed first on all titles, so statistically he owns all 3 cars in the family.
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Here in SE Wisconsin, there are a lot of women driving the big rigs Kate mentioned. I've even begun to see more women in big 4x4 pickups - especially in Dodge Rams. Could be where I'm located though - Kenosha is an old Chrysler town. There's an engine plant next door to my workplace. Lots of JGC too - again, many driven by women.

    -brian/subearu
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I have long thought (believed!) that the Forester, or a totally new vehicle, could easily evolve into a "true" (meaning more off-road and utility oriented) SUV without sacrificing any of its on-road, or car-like abilities. I still do.

    Obviously, from all the folks indicating a desire for dual-range transmissions on these boards, I'm not alone.

    If the "production ST-X" follows the prototype's lead (dual-range tranny & increased ground clearance), then we will get such a vehicle. Hopefully those features will also make it into the 2003 Forester, along with Class II towing capability.

    I'm not talking about a hulking ground-crusher of an SUV, but one that will be within striking distance of the capabilities of most mid-size SUVs. And... certainly a vehicle that will be significantly more capable than any of the other sport-cutes out there.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Kate: are you serious? Around me, virtually every single Forester owner I've seen is female. In fact, I think the only time I've seen a male driving one is when I saw Bob, and it was borrowed!

    Auto Pacific lists Expedition owners as 70% male, but I'm sure it varies by region.

    The point about the title is interesting. I'm not sure how Auto Pacific measures ownership. Surveys?

    I've been to a Jeep Jamboree, and there are very, very few women. Even then, none were driving.

    We just talked about the Audo allroad quattro, and voila, Edmunds puts up their review. I really like the look, and it offers everything you could possibly desire. Hopefully it'll get people out of the behemoth-sized SUVs.

    Some notes: very clean underside, and 8.2" inches sounds good, but Car still said their Forester Turbo was much more at home off road. It has airbags like the XT. How much for those again, paisan? ;) Base price ain't as high as I thought, but it doesn't include heated seats or a moonroof. At least ESP is standard.

    Quick, too. Under 7s to 60? Sweet. Subaru ought to supercharge the VDC and go after Audi.

    For heaven's sake, Eagle did NOT make the first crossover. Subaru put 4WD in cars way, way before Eagle did. Here's a photo:

    http://thejuiceman.homepage.com/more.html

    Sheesh!

    -juice
  • soon2bsubeesoon2bsubee Member Posts: 137
    There are 3 delaers here in South Florida
    1) Eddie Accardi(also Mazda, Dodge, and Chrysler(had a PT Cruiser with $10k ADMU!!!)---would not budge from their price(approx $1,000 over other places, which includes $600 dealer fee for the owner's college fund. Nice salesman though

    2) Delray Subaru (also multi brand)- the original salesman was low-key but with very little interest in making a sale..when Susan went there ready to order because they didn't have what she wanted, another SMOOOOTH salesman condescendingly said"Sure, we can make you any car you want". Needless to say, we walked out at that point...why would she want to give them her money with salemen like that.

    3) William Lehman (Volvo, Jaguar, Saab also)
    salepeople had no idea what Subarus were...no knowledge at all about the car.

    We ended up placing an order with Fiztgerald Subaru in Clearwater Florida(the other side of the state, near Tampa). They are part of the Fitzgerald group in MD. Nice salesperson, Carl Anderson, worked with us on the price...Susan is flying up to Tampa tomorrow, where Carl is picking her up at the airport...She will take delivery of her 2001 White Birch Legacy GT sedan automatic and carefully drive home..... We will most likely get the car serviced at Accardi, where the Subaru guy was service manager up north...will post pictures of the new car soon...enjoy your weekends
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    i was curious why you left i club. Now I know why. Hmm.... I must've missed that thread about you saying the impreza being a child of the xt6? please elaborate. I still gawk at any XTs whenever. So don't worry. I won't flame you. I tihnk the Impreza is a great car. But not the be all and end all cars.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Interesting to note that the allroad, in addition to the 5-speed tiptronic automatic, also comes with a 6-speed manual, not a 5-speed unit.

    I really think the future for manual transmissions in this country, with the exception of "price-leaders," is for 6-speeds. Besides the obvious advantage of closer gear spacing, there is a certain "sexyness" to a 6-speed that is lacking with the "every-day 5-speed units."

    I really hope that the 6-speed unit that Subaru is standard the home-market WRX-STi, will make over here in both the (our) WRX and the H-6 Legacy/Outback. It would also help position Subaru as a legitimate "near luxury" brand, or at least the H-6 as such.

    Now that would be a hoot! :)

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the whole XT concept stands apart. If I recall, it was the first production vehicle to reach a coefficient of drag of .29. Very unique style, hunkered down look. Nothing like it then or now.

    The Impreza is way, way more mainstream. You'll also recall the platform was a shortened and stiffer Legacy platform. Perhaps the RS replaced the XT in the lineup, spiritually.

    And no, it's not the be all and end all of cars. A yello WRX wagon 6 speed WITH flares is. :)

    I agree with Bob. 6 speed is sexy, while 5 speed says "just like a stripped Kia".

    But bring the 6 speed in the GT and WRX, and a 5 speed auto for the VDC. That's what would sell best.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Too bad we're not running Subaru! :)

    Bob
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    are making me feel very old. I remember when "4-on-the-floor was considered "sexy". In 20 years will you be talking about the need for a 27 speed forward, 3 reverse? :-)

    Ross
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    how fast can you go with the reverse gear? It seemed like it's always accelerating when I reverese. But I never tested it.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well the front suspension of the XT6 is the same as the Impreza! The XT6 also was the first one to have the 5 lug subaru standard offset that they still use today, and fit into the "sporty" class of vehicles that the RS is trying to fit into today.

    I club was just too quick paced and too many little kids who would not take anyone else's opinion on anything.

    I actually had my XT6 out last night despite the suspension problems, running like a top! (except for the excessive bouncing of the car on NYC bumps)

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    My buddy used to get his maxima up to 35mph in reverse! That was when we were younger and dumber!

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You have to take I club FWIW. Plenty of good technical info, plenty of junk too.

    The group here is generally more pleasant to chat with, no question.

    Reverse has a very high ratio, higher than 1st. You'd redline pretty quick, though acceleration may actually be quicker (if you can keep it straight).

    -juice
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    There is a forum for it, people!

    Subaru Crew - Dealers and Pricing

    Furrfu ;-)

    -wdb
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I got you topped. I can remember when
    3-on-the-tree was the hot set up!

    Actually, if you remember, a few posts back, I
    suggested a tri-range transmission, rather than a
    dual-range unit; so... 6 gears x 3 ranges = 18
    gears. Not quite 27, but we're getting there! It (all these gears) seems to work for mountain bikers. I work on it :)

    Bob
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