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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

bonnie_rickbonnie_rick Member Posts: 115
in Subaru
your discussion from Subaru Crew - Future Models
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Bonnie Rick
Conferences Manager, Edmunds.com Town Hall
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Comments

  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Very interesting on those US Spec cars from new-impreza.com

    Remote-release gas fillers (no tab to open em from the outside noted in the pics)

    Other than the headlights they look quite sharp, but thos headllights are down-right ugly Neon looking...

    -mike
  • kostamojenkostamojen Member Posts: 55
    Everyone says they are nothing like the Neon... Theyre a new breed entirely... Which can be a bad or good thing depending on how conservitive you are with what you like in cars.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If everyone said they were jumping off a bridge would you believe em? :)

    We'll see what they look like in real life, but they appear to be the same bug-eyed kiddie car looking headlights of the neon.

    -mike
    http://www.iace.com/ia/trooper
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    Mercedes Benz puts strange-looking oval headlights in their cars, even going as far as making the latest iterations look like they're pregnant or growing a goiter, and I don't see anyone saying "ugh" about those. Yet Subaru mimics that look on the Impreza and folks pick on them for it! I don't get it.

    Some new stuff looks different to the point of taking time to get used to it. I put the Mercedes headlight treatment in that category; I haven't decided yet whether I find it attractive or not. Personally I'm withholding a decision on the looks of the new Impreza until I see one in 3space. (But I have to admit that I'm trying to come with a way to rationalize trading in my year-old GT on one.)

    Cheers,
    -wdb
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The Impreza is a compact, the Benz is an expensive fuller sized car. (I don't like em on the benz either) They can get away with that, because no one is gonna mistake a Benz for a neon! :)

    Personally it wouldn't stop me from buying one cause I'm all go, no show type, so if they sold me a pea green WRX with chocolate Brown interior, i'd buy it! (if i had the $)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Re: headlights: I agree. There are a number of vehicles that use, or have used, oval headlights; Mercedes, Porsche to name two. Nobody's complained that I aware of.

    As to the Neon reference, I've always liked the "looks" of the Neon - especially the headlights. I've never been impressed with the vehicle per say, but I've always thought it was one of the better looking cars to come out of Detroit in the past ten years.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    In all the JDM literature, Subaru keeps mentioning how they went with the latest trend in Europe for round headlights.

    Ken
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    I'm all about go. If that bug eyed WRX goes like stink and can smack the 3 series like a red headed stepchild, I'll buy it. With a few dollars of mods, you are looking to spank the S4s too. And it would be even sweeter cus those drivers would be wondering what the heck was that thing that just blew past me? hehehehe....
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    The oval headlamps (in the E-class, for example) that MB uses are supposed to be retro. from the E-class built in the 1960's/70's, and even before them. I guess MB felt that the buyers of that car (who are typically middle aged, successful, etc.) could remember the old design (which also had a turn signal above the low beam area) and be drawn to the new vehicle.

    This nostalgy is typically lost on the younger people, which would explain why I absolutely hated the design when I first saw it in the fall of 1995. However, it grew on me (took a couple of years) and now I have one in my garage :-).

    I think it's also important to note that all MB vehicles with the circular headlamps also have a smaller circular (inner) foglamp/high beam located next to the low beams - another retro thing, whereas the new Impreza a single circular headlamp on each side. If only North America could get the HID Xenons. Even the VW Beetle is getting this (optional) for MY2001!

    The horizontal peanut-shaped design of the new C-class is actually surprisingly good when seen in person. I didn't like it when I saw the pictures, but the actual product turned out much better. Hopefully, I'll have the same impression of the new Impreza. Is it just me, or does the hood look rather plain without the hood scoop?

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Also, the new Mini will have oval headlights.
    I'm with Drew on the plain hoods. I'll miss even the non-functional hood scoop. That's something my wife likes on her 99 OB that's no longer on our new Legacy's.
    Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    all this concern over the Impreza's oval headlamps is way overblown. I think, once you see the vehicle in person, they will look fine.

    They're different, and that takes some getting used to.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I like the clean look. :) If it isn't functional, it shouldn't be there, that's my opinion on all car stuffs... Same goes for spoilers.

    -mike
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    This was one of the main reasons that I ruled out buying an OBS. It was my first choice for size and price, but I just couldn't get past the phony "boy-racer" looks.

    Ross
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    What? phony boy racer looks? THe dealer told me its good for 15hp?! Arrrghhh!!! I've been had!!! =D
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    15hp on the scoop? My dealer said 10hp for the wing on the RS! Then you add the "vents" on the hood and you are really cooking (5hp for each of those)

    :) HAAAAAAAAA!

    -mike
  • kostamojenkostamojen Member Posts: 55
    LOL!

    No seriously though, the Oval headlights on the WRX actually are 3-Dimensional and not just straight circles, they blend backwards with the lines of the car like the Mercades as you said.

    Plus, they go better with the big round Foglights that we all love :P Everythings anatomically correct now! :D
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    The new Impreza with no scoops is back in the running. I will reserve judgement but I like the new headlights from the pictures, I've always thought that the Impreza had more European styling cues than Japanese ones.

    Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why is everyone so down on the Neon? Did you actually prefer the Shadow it replaced? The first gen was actually pretty cute, and it was a giant leap in terms of improvements. For a Dodge, of course.

    As for the WRX, I'm sure people will buy it anyways, the lines will just be shorter. Also, how much you wanna bet the tuners come out with vinyl stickers for the tops of the headlights that make them look more aggressive?

    I liked the hood scoops. With cheap group buys for the turbos, lots of people made them functional.

    Borrego seems like an interesting idea, but if they produced it, they'd water it down so much it would look nothing like the concept.

    wdb: is it too late to offer my vote of support? The wife could use a quick, stealthy GT-A...

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    about Neon comments Juice. Yes, it is light years better than the car it replaced.

    Bob
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Well, kinda going OT about the Neon but -
    The Shadow had good reliability according to Consumer Reports. My first new car was a '95 Neon. Bad car (yeah, I know, first year) and really bad dealer experiences. I read a year or so ago that Automobile regretted naming it COY. They said any minute it felt like something would come apart on the dash. Exactly the way I felt.

    Traded the Neon for my 97 OBS. Great car and much better dealer experience.
    Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I had an '85 Lebaron GTS Turbo 2.5l That thing was way better than the neon! Reliable, and screaming fast! It was the pre-cursor to the shadow I believe.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Shadow (yet another K-car) had a shorter wheel base and some cost cutting measures.

    My friend has owned two, mostly out of necessity, because they kept falling apart. His turbo was fast when it was running.

    -juice
  • kostamojenkostamojen Member Posts: 55
    I had a '89 Lebarron for 3 years... After fixing the shocks, it actually drove pretty well (only 100hp though). That car was jynzed though, things kept running into it: Rearended at an innersection, Sideswiped while driving down the street, hit in the parkinglot twice. I finally sold it this year for $700 w/ damage... (already spent $1500 on body repairs, car was worth about that much)

    Im driving my moms old car now ('92 Achieva), after she bought her '00 Legacy GT Limited Sedan (white w/ spoiler). I miss the LeBarron even though the Achieva is a 3.3l V6, cause it handles like crap...

    The best American small car in decades though is definatly the Focus. Cant wait to see the Focus-RS when it comes out...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How 'bout some fatter no-sway bars for that UndaAchieva? That plus some sportier tires could help a bit.

    At least you can look forward to that GT eventually. :) Hey - tell your mom to get the turbo or H6 model when those come out, then you keep the GT...

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    pfft! juice made a funny, and a good one!

    That whole platform blows. Actually, I think the newer one does too (Malibu etc). GM has yet to figure out they need to do something about torque steer if they want to keep building FWD cars. I never drove a FORD FWD model that pulled as badly as the half dozen or so Cavaliers, Luminas, etc. I have driven.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've only driven an Intrigue (at Edmunds Live with Hutch). It was so lame, he didn't even bother to drive it. We both liked the V6 Camry much better.

    In most cases we took turns driving each car.

    -juice
  • aakersonaakerson Member Posts: 71
    Drove a friend's Seville once, and made the mistake or flooring it (per his suggestion) to get a sense of its power. what I got a sense of was the most violent torque steer imaginable. Suddenly I was in a fight with the car on where the car was headed -- straight ahead or left. that wheel jerked to the left and took my unprepared hands with it. And this car costs $46-$50K!

    Why no torque steer with Subarus -- longitudinal engine? Maybe they should turn the Cadillac over to the Subaru engineers. In fact, maybe GM should turn the WHOLE COMPANY over to Subaru.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    See when u mesh the gas pedal, the initial weight transfer is shifter to the rear which if your car is FWD, the rears are just along for the ride and to support the rear seats. So the nose of your car will lift up. You get alot less traction when the driving wheels are lifter off the ground. That my friend invites torque steer to your car.
    Our AWD cars will still get the weight transfer. But since (5spd) is 50/50 power bias so there's power at the rear anyways so the car just scoots. But I've lighted all 4 of my tires for a very brief second once. I accidentally dumped the clutch at 6000 rpm and it hit the rev limiter. Tires screeched for a blink of an eye and the car takes off. Not good for tranny. But loads fun.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    The big causes of torque steer are suspension design and halfshaft length. Because the engine is longitudinally mounted (and centered in the engine bay, ahem to older Audi models) equal length half-shafts are easy. For most transverse mounted FWD or AWD vehicles it's not so easy, but many foreign makes have bothered to go through to effort to make it so. Cadillac may have not... and if the half-shafts aren't equal length, the shorter one gets more torque to the wheels. (It's a U joint, not a lever arm.)

    The suspension also plays a very large role but that's not as easy to explain. I'll wimp out and have you trust me, or ask someone else to take up the gauntlet.

    Anyway, Subaru has addressed both. ;-)

    -Colin
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I experienced it when I drove my cousin's Grand Am GT. I let out a big "Whoa!" Man, am I spoiled with AWD. :-)
    Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    V8 torque + FWD = recipe for torque steer. Cadillac always seems to be a step behind the trend of the times - most luxury cars are going RWD.

    Even the Passat has torque steer, though VW hypes the "virtual axis" front suspension.

    Put simply, you're simply asking the front wheels to do too much! Carry 60% of the weight, steer, and oh, by the way, apply torque to the pavement at the same time!

    Soobs divide the traction duties, and the weight distribution is better to boot.

    -juice
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    I'm with Colin, it ain't just AWD. Tauruses don't do it, neither do Camrys or Accords, because they have put the money into the engineering Colin described. Only in high HP cars is it acceptable, IMHO, like the 9-3 Viggen
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The caddys refered to above are kinda high horsepower and torque... I just hate FWD in general...

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    More problems for Ford...

    Besides just having the 5th recall (the largest yet!) for the Escape, it's now reported that the all-new OHC 4.6 alloy block V-8, scheduled for the soon to be released 2002 Explorer 4-door has been delayed due to problems.

    Will it ever end??

    Bob

    http://www.blueovalnews.com/
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    High HP? Uh yeah, if you consider 275-300 HP "kinda high". ;-)

    For the weight of the vehicle and the size of the tires, it shouldn't have the torque steer problem that it does if it were engineered properly. A better solution though would be RWD.

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    A better solution still would be AWD. :-{)

    Bob
  • kostamojenkostamojen Member Posts: 55
    I got to drive my moms GT Limited to class today cause the Old's had some stalling problems yesterday (It doesnt happen to me for some reason, just when other people drive it) and plus it was raining today, and I do love the AWD in rain :)

    Anyway, theres this zig-zag on a 4 lane road I go on every day (S curve, 35mph, very tight) and the Achieva goes about 50-55 before it starts seriously peeling out and the front of the car starts to give away (its really scary too, the opposite of fishtailing) while the '00 Legacy can go about 60 without peeling out.

    However, the Legacy is seriously out-powered by the achieva (3.3 V6 vs. 2.5 H4) which I could easily beat a stock RS with (And these civics just love challenging me, and I just play along staying right next to them without even trying... its hilarious). The Legacy has this really nasty "stall" thing it does when accellerating from a stop (Its impossible to peel out with...), but its got good enough umph when accellerating when your already moving for sure... Anyone notice how funky the steering wheels position is though? You just cant get close enough without seriously bending your legs (im 5'10"), its hard to get in a good brasive posture... (the slick leather and flatness of the seat backs dont help)

    Dont get me wrong, the Legacy is a damn good car, in fact, I got a little to close to a curbing while parking and the car just hopped right up without hesitation (!) like it wasnt even there... I still like the RS better, and cant wait for the new Impreza line...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That phenomenon is called severe understeer. Though some Soob owners may not be very familiar with that... ;)

    I believe the stalling you're referring has to do with the AWD drivetrain. There is more mechanical resistance in sending power to four wheels, and so it takes more to get it going. Once on the move, you hardly notice.

    Try the tilt wheel feature if you haven't. Can't help with the leather - that's why I choose cloth.

    Bob: I'm surprised. The mod V8 has been in the Crown Vic for years, and it's been quite reliable. Ford seems to be in a down cycle.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    And when pre-tell in the past 20 years has it been in an up-cycle :)

    I love Blue Oval News!

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I've also heard that the slight delay in automatic Subes is due to the size of the torque converter. Anyone else want to add to that? Colin?
    Dennis
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Some one mentioned that tauruses , camrys and accords don't have them. Well they might be equiped with traction control where by the ecu will retard engine timing to cut power thus limiting tq steer from happening.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I can't speak for Accords or Camrys, but traction control was not on the 94 SHO we used to own. 220hp with no torque steer. Also no transmission or engine problems over 120,000 miles.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    have front LSD? Wow. 220hp no TQ steer. Our old 95 V6 Probe with 165hp creates TQ steer like mad when you step on the gas hard....
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    Torque steer doesn't happen on the Fords mentioned because it has been engineered out, not because someone pulled some kind of software stunt. There is a right way and a wrong way to fix certain things, and hardware and hard engineering is the way to fix torque steer. Like Ford did.

    The Explorer/Firestone controversy that seemed to ignite the current flamefest aimed at Ford is being scrutinized by people looking at hard numbers. Those numbers indicate some interesting things, such as the fact that the failure rate of the tires can be pinpointed to a particular factory and even a particular time period. Those numbers also indicate that the death rate in Explorers is 28 percent BELOW the national average for all vehicles combined.

    Of course the damage is already done, and the fear mongers and the media outlets that sell advertising by catering to their cravings have already made their money on the basis of such questionable statistics and Naderesque, kill-the-Corvair, hatchet-job tactics. Now they are looking for the next hatchet target. Shame on us for feeding that awful machine, because it is aimed right at us.

    -wdb
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    How dare you inject a note of sanity into the proceedings. I have a strong (somewhat irrational) dislike of Fords based upon my past experiences. It's fun to bash them! :-) You are correct however and I feel properly chastened. Mea culpa.

    Ross
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    link to Car and Driver's explorer tire testhttp://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/2001/January/200101_steeringcolumn.xml
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I've (and many people I know) been burnt by FORD, I feel it's my god given right to be able to bash on em. And like he said it's fun! ;)

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    It was fun to bash them also, but I refrain from doing so on this list.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I won't be offended, I don't know anyone who has had the troubles that i've seen across the board on Fords.

    You don't know the agony that many of us on here have been through with various Fords...

    -mike
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