Mazda Protege Maintenance and Repair

mdaffron · October 2001

In layman's terms, when your "check engine" light comes on, it means the car's computer has recorded an out-of-normal reading on one of the many sensors your engine has (throttle position sensor, mass airflow sensor, camshaft position sensor, etc.). Even if the light goes back off, the computer has stored a "code" that a technician, or you, if you have a code reader, can read. The code will indicate what sensor took the bad reading and help diagnose what may need to be replaced. Warning ... disconnecting your battery for a few seconds will normally "clear" the codes stored in the computer's memory. So if you want to find out what's wrong, take it to a mechanic and don't do anything like decide now is the time for a new battery in your Protege!

Meade

speedypt · October 2001

Does it run roughly all the time or only under heavy "load". By load I mean...does it do it under very heavy throttle and not under very light throttle? I had the same issue with both of my '92 Pro LX's. The culprit was the plug wires and it only happened with more than 1/4 throttle. I was suprised to find out it was the plug wires. It happened within 1 month on both of my '92s. Diagnosing it the 2nd time was easy!

If it does it all the time I'm not sure it's the plug wires. Have the codes read like everyone else says...

Regards,

Pete

gibber · November 2001

Well I have to take it to the dealer for the codes. Sometimes it runs OK, but other times the idle is very low(threatening to stall) and the engine seems to have very little power. If running really poorly, it emits smoke, etc. Its inconsistent. I had an Escort GT which did something very similar, which was fixed by the wires. Unfortunately, the wires are not carried by anyone! Except probably the dealer, 20 miles away. One thing about Mazda is that the availability of parts and service is fairly poor. How much should a diagnostic test cost(for reading the codes)? One place quoted $195, which seems to me pretty outrageous since you can buy a PC based analyzer for $200. I'm hoping by some miracle that the repair is covered by the emissions warranty.

mdaffron · November 2001

I'm almost willing to lay money on it being the plug wires. You're at 52,000 miles, which means the wires you replaced at 30,000 miles have almost run their entire life.

And BTW, a Firestone shop charged me $75 to pull the codes on my wife's 1995 Cavalier after the dealership's service department quoted me a price of $95.

Meade

alcan · November 2001

$195 is a heavy hit. Most shops around here charge 1 hour labour to retrieve stored trouble codes. Keep us posted as to what the codes were. Defective plugs or wires should set one of more of these codes:
P0300 = random/multiple cylinder misfire detected
P0301 through 304 = cylinder 1 through 4 misfire detected

black01coupev6 · November 2001

try getting any factory repair manual and pulling the codes yourself. There should be some backup way to pull the codes. My fiance did this for a couple of his cars.

alcan · November 2001

There are ways to access stored trouble codes on most older cars, but if it's a '96 or newer it's OBD II compliant and the only way to retrieve codes is with a scanner or code reader.

gibber · November 2001

Took it to the dealer- estimate is $415 for the "coil pack" and plug wires. I don't have much choice but it seems like an outrageous charge to me. By the way, even the dealer did not have the plug wires right away. I'm not too happy.

maltb · November 2001

if it run's well, don't change the coil pack.

With a few rare exceptions, either they work or they don't.

gibber · November 2001

It runs OK sometimes, but runs really rough, almost stalling with no power at others, obviously misfiring. I think I'm stuck with the dealer repair. I believe the "engine" light was put there to increase repair costs by reducing or eliminating owner repairs. Besides, you can't get any parts for the Protege at your local auto parts store, other than oil filters, etc.

maltb · November 2001

don't replace the coils if the car runs. Just try the wires first.

gibber · November 2001

Unfortunately, I'm stuck with the dealer, since it is far away and I can't get the wires until tommorrow anyway. Then it would be just the wires and if that didn't do it I would be without the car for even more time. However, the dealer's explanation for the coil was that it is shorting out when it gets hot. It has been my experience that it runs OK when cold, but when restarted after running for awhile, gets the blinking or full on engine light and barely runs. Unfortunately, at this time I can't afford(in time) to experiment. But it really sucks that I couldn't have just gone to Kragen's or whatever and tried out a new set of wires to satisfy myself.

jskho · November 2001

Since this is the same engine as on the 626, I wonder if it has the same notorious Ford CD4E auto transmission. Since Protege/5s are built in Japan, does this mean that they have Mazda trannies?

maltb · November 2001

dennisjhs · November 2001

I'm here in the San Francisco Bay Area, where labour is amoungst the highest in the nation. To pull codes with the scanner, charges here run from 100.00 - 140.00, not including repairs. Although I don't work with Mazda's currently, I have in the past and normally recommend replacment of ignition cables at 50K miles. It appears that for most vehicles, that's about as much life as you can reasonably expect from them.
dennisjhs in SF

gibber · November 2001

Well, now I got the car back, $415 later and sure enough, the engine light comes on a day later. I look under the hood and there are the new plug wires(a nice blue) and one of the old ones lying there as well. Now I get to go back to complain and be lucky to get off with another $100.

alcan · November 2001

Stored DTC's identify the circuit or system whose operation is/was outside specified parameters and has triggered the MIL. Even then, stored codes don't specify what the problem component is, only the affected circuit. Did the dealer specify which DTC's were present?

gibber · November 2001

Back to the dealer-failure was catalytic converter. Fortunately, a warranty item.

alcan · November 2001

If the plug wires were defective and causing a misfire, that often damages a catalytic converter. All the excess hydrocarbons from the unburned fuel make the catalyst work overtime and can overheat it, causing the bed to melt down. Glad to hear you got it resolved.

sunbyrne · November 2001

So, today I drove to work in a rented Dodge Neon. Why? Well, lemme tell ya...

A couple months ago we brought my wife's 1999 Protege LX in to the dealer for it's 30K service. They did it quickly and without hassle, which was nice.

But a few weeks ago, her car was sputtering and she was experiencing power losses. I popped the hood and told her to rev the engine. One of the spark plugs popped out. I took a look at it, and the threads were discolored halfway up--looks like someone forgot to tighten the plug all the way. Probably the dealer's fault, but not a huge problem so I just put it back in and tightened it myself. Everything seemed fine so I forgot about it.

Thursday morning my wife was driving to work and the car started sputtering again and the "check engine" light came on. She pulled into the nearest service place (a Goodyear) and had them look at it.

The Goodyear guys said that a bunch of stuff was wrong. First, the car had the WRONG spark plugs in it. It had the spark plugs rated for the 1.8 (that would be the ES), not the 1.6. Second, three of the four spark plugs were loose, apparently only hand tightened. Third, and this is the kicker, one of the plug had literally come apart, and the electrode was now rattling around in the cylinder, damaging the piston!

Needless to say I immediately called the dealer. They were willing to send a truck to tow the car to the dealer so they could look at it, but they would not send out a loaner. My wife had meetings she had to get to, so she rented a car. The dealer picked up the car and also the plugs. Needless to say, at this point I was pretty miffed.

The dealer is now claiming that the correct plugs were installed, and installed correctly. This is BS. However, they are calling this a part failure under warranty, so they are paying for all the work, including (ulp) a new engine block--the electrode that had been rattling around damaged the cylinder. They say they're going to pay for the rental car as well, though I still haven't nailed them down on who's supposed to be paying the Goodyear bill.

So, my question to you guys is, if they really do pay for everything, should I just be glad it all got paid for and let the obvious labor error on their part slide, or what? I'm sure they want it to read as a part failure so they can charge Mazda for it, which is their concern and not mine, but since I don't have the plugs anymore, I'm not sure how much leverage I have if they give me any trouble over this. Any suggestions?

sfrat · November 2001

That sounds awful. I would guess the goodyear people were probably right, and the dealership is trying to cover up their mistakes and classify it as a warranty problem so that they won't have to pay for it themselves out of their pocket. That's just a guess. At this point, you really don't have much choice but to let them fix it, but next time it needs to go in for routine service, go elsewhere.

mazdafun · November 2001

Untrained monkeys, some of these guys.

Really sorry you had such a horrible experience.

I'd get them to give you an extended warranty on the powertrain (engine, transmission etc.), at their expense.

Too bad you let go of the spark plugs. 20/20 hindsight. Service providers used to present you with the used parts (supposedly from your vehicle), giving you the option of either holding onto them or tossing them out. Nowadays, they don't even bother saving them to give you the option unless you demand up-front to be shown them after the service. Just CYA behavior, if you ask me.

Get the paperwork. Make sure the repairs are documented. If you're still PO'd and won't go back to that dealership, then I'd complain to HQ.

maltb · November 2001

"I'd get them to give you an extended warranty on the powertrain (engine, transmission etc.), at their expense."

Do you really think they would do that? I don't think they are sitting around ready to hand out free insurance plans for a 2 year old car. After all, he's already getting an engine out of the deal.

mazdafun · November 2001

What's $700 if they stay out of trouble (i.e. small claims court)? Based upon the experience he's had, I'd be suspect of any work they do on his car, and I'd want coverage for it. Who says they won't slightly misalign the interface between the engine and tranny (resulting in both being trashed) when they fix it?

For the labor rates dealer service departments charge, they should really be properly trained and QA should be enforced by the service managers to make sure work is properly done. That's why we go there instead of to independent of non-dealer chains. They're supposed to be "a step above."

Sorry for being so blunt, but I've had my share of bad service, mostly due to carelessness (such as when they forgot to put the grease seals back on my hubs after replacing the bearings...geez!).

Of course, they'd probably be more willing if he'd retained the spark plugs. I guess the mechanics at the Goodyear might be willing to be witnesses should it come to litigation. Speaking of which, where's twistinlemon (pardon me if I spelled that wrong)?

duh_ster · November 2001

i've notice a bit of rust accumulating on my disc brakes (specifically, the discs). i've been told this is normal, still...it bothers me...is there any way to remove it??
'duh'

maltb · November 2001

but the dealer said they were going to fix it so there's nothing to be litigated. The stop at Goodyear wont be covered as they can claim that he should have called the dealer 1st.

Nobody is in business to lose money: not Mazda, not the dealer and not Mazdafun.

sfrat · November 2001

The "disks" you are talking about are probably your rotors. Perfectly normal. If you drive the car, it should just wear off as you use the brakes. HTH

Steve

mazdafun · November 2001

The rust is normal.

I wouldn't spray them with anything oily.

You might try removing them and having them chemically cleaned or sand-blasted. You could then have them plated with something to resist oxidation (such as nickel or chrome) and then machining the plating off the brake surfaces....or you could look around for after-market ones that already have rust-resistant coatings on the non-braking surfaces...or accept it like I do (I'm cheap).

Seriously, the rust shouldn't be a problem. It wears off the braking surfaces right after you first apply the brakes. Rust on the rest of the disc shouldn't affect the performance (unless you live downwind of the ocean...you lucky guy, you).

If you don't like the appearance, you can remove the more visible portions with pipe cleaners and soft metal brushes (such as those with brass bristles, not steel), such as those used to clean BBQ grilles. Don't use metal brushes on a power tool. You can do damage before you know it.

maltb · November 2001

if it's on the brake surface, you can't do much about it besides brake more...lol. If the looks bother you, you can mask the braking surface off and spray the rotors with high temp paint. It's purely cosmetic though.

alcan · November 2001

Braking surfaces of rotors tend to corrode after some time, usually more evident on the inner surface and extending from the inner edge of the braking surface outwards. Eventually the corrosion buildup will cause a brake pedal pulsation, at which point it's time for fresh rotors and pads. Part of the cost of maintenance.

sunbyrne · November 2001

I think maltb has it right--I think the dealer is covering the cost of the repairs (and rental car) to avoid litigation, or at least the possibility of it. I'm sure they know they screwed up and that they're open to legal action if I wanted to go that route. Frankly, I'd rather not. I'll be interested to see what they say about the Goodyear bill, though we haven't gotten to that stage of the discussion just yet. My wife talked to them today and they are still maintaining that the correct type of spark plugs were installed, which I'm not sure about.

I'm actually kinda bummed to have this happen with this particular dealer, because I had a great sales experience this year when I bought my Pro5 there. Grr.

maltb · November 2001

"Eventually the corrosion buildup will cause a brake pedal pulsation, at which point it's time for fresh rotors and pads."

corrosion causes pulsation? must be some serious rust!

I'm of the belief that high temps cause the rotors to warp and therefore result in pulsation. Many times they can be resurfaced depending on how bad they warp.

alcan · November 2001

No question that the most common cause of pedal pulsation is rotor runout (usually from severe usage or an impact gun tightening the lug nuts), but corrosion is becoming a pretty close second with the vehicles I service. The last 2 front brake complaints I've had were for a bouncing pedal, and in each case about 1/2 of the inner braking surfaces was corroded to the point where the contact from the rust scabs was clearly evident on the brake pads. The other brake problem I've been finding more often recently is metallic pads separating from their backing plates after rusting through at the pad/plate attachment rivet area.
Maybe living in a low humidity place like Arizona has hidden benefits, although cooling system service would be a killer. LOL

maltb · November 2001

The joys of living in a salt free/snow free environment.

alcan · November 2001

I envy you, but don't you sometimes get sick of that eternally glorious weather?

)

maltb · November 2001

chikoo · November 2001

If you scream "intelligently" enough, you WILL get a 7yr/100,000 mile extended warranty with 0 deductible.

That is the law in the land of USA.

Believe me.
Beentheredonethat.

sunbyrne · November 2001

For the advice. I will be talking to the dealer on Monday, and I'll certainly ask for the extended warranty.

Where, chikoo, is some documentation of this law so I can be as informed as possible when talking to the dealer? I'd love to see that...

chikoo · November 2001

I am not talking about laws.
The very fact that you had such a big problem in the first weeks of your car should pressurize the dealer enough. Represent your thoughts to MNAO too. Give a fair indication on how YOU feel about mazda and reliability.......since YOU(sunbryne) is already scorched once, how can you trust the car?....and blah blah long those lines.

This will certainly help you.

maltb · November 2001

read it again Chikoo...this is his '99 that he had a 30k done on.

I too was wondering about these "laws".

mazdafun · November 2001

Still, the careless service reflects badly upon the Mazda brand. If they make a mistake, they should take responsibility and make it up to you for the trouble they caused if they want to keep you a happy customer.

gandrigo · November 2001

I have a 99 Dx with a rough Idle. Has been checked by the dealer (NFF) and the plugs were just changed. Gets noticeably worse as electrical load is increased by turning up the fan and engaging the defroster. You can feel the vibration through the seat and steering wheel. typically the idle smooths out as I approach the dealership. My old 323 idled better than this after 10 years of abuse. Any ideas?
Thanks

mazdafun · November 2001

They may have set the idle speed too low. This can make the engine run on the verge of stalling, and create a rough idle. It gets worse as you put more demands on the electrical system (less current for the sparks).

Does it idle roughly if you give it a little gas (i.e., run it at a slightly higher speed)? Hard to put numbers on it w/o a tachometer. If it runs smoothly, then I'd ask they raise the idle speed a little. This will consume a bit more gas when you idle, but you'll be happier.

ashutoshsm · December 2001

Have them checked (or do so yourself) for excesive wear. The 'electrical load' you talk of is transmitted to the engine (conversely the accessories are driven by the engine) using these belts. worn belts will be ineffcient and possibly noisy too - and lack of smooth motion may cause the rough idle.

In a friends Buick (don't know if this would be the case for the Protege), his belts were so bad at one stage, that cranking the engine using the key to statr it, wouldn't work because of overload due to the bad belts! And with a brand new battery and fine starting system/solenoids etc.

mdaffron · December 2001

Just two more days and we would've been a MONTH without a post here!!!

Meade

ashutoshsm · December 2001

I got some alone time at my aunt's home PC, finally (cousins had no homework) so I decided to catch up on the 'other' Protege boards!

Saw this message, and posted a reply without checking the date!
Hmm, we're (again) posting non-problem-related messages here, and increasing the message count :-)

the_big_h · December 2001

loudly when driving over this one particular speedbump in front of my apartment complex.

Never happened before until this week. Every morning when I exit the apartment complex to go to work I have to drive over the bump. Before the suspension would just make a solid THUD sound when driving over the bump, but now when it goes over, it makes this nasty SQEEEEEK sound, first the front wheels, then the back wheels as the car goes over the bump.

This only happens when exiting the complex in the morning, when I come back from work I also have to go over the bump from the other side, and everything is fine.

Any idea as to why it's making this sound all of a sudden?

Car still drives the same as before, except when crossing this particular bump...

fritz1224 · December 2001

My guess is that in the morning your hearing is slightly better than in the evening after a day of constant noise assaults from the typical noise polluting activities. A nice quiet night of sleep tends to refresh body and mind. Also, there's probably less background noises during the early hours and the squeaking isn't drowned out like in the evening. Hard to imagine this squeaking would be "direction specific".

tomciviletti · December 2001

I think the biggest variable in squeeks, buzzes, and rattles made by a car is temperature. clearances change significantly [especially in plastics] and lubricants change viscosity. I find that my pro makes more noises in cold weather and when it has not been running for a while, and so heating up itself.

chikoo · December 2001

same here for squeaking/creeking over bumps.

Me thinks it has to do with temperature.
my car makes more noise when I start it up first time in winter. Takes about 7-10 miles to warm up nicely. Till then it shifts funny, makes lot of engine noise, et al.
But once it is warmed up....man O man. It's a joy to see the tach go up 4000+

Mazda Protege Maintenance and Repair

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