VW Golf vs Honda Civic

only1harry · April 2000

Well I got 96k mi. on my '97 Civic DX htbk now and I 've replaced the following:

0-83K mi. - NOTHING replaced (just did a minor
tune-up)

83K mi. Speed sensor went and blew the alternator
Both were replaced under the extended
warranty I had purchased.

83K - 96K present - NOTHING! car runs great!
Even the battery is factory..

Of course I did replace the timing belt at 91K mi. as part of the maintenance and I replaced the brake pads at 75k mi. (no cylinder, just pads)
Oil is replaced every 3500 mi. Radiator was flushed once at 55K mi. - ALL regular maintenance stuff - cheap..

All my friends have had similar experiences with their '92-'99 Civics as I have (so far).
I drive my Civic very hard and very fast. I average 80mph all the time going to work and back home and I often hit a 100mph for a few seconds (I then remember that I 'm not in my Integra GSR and I slow down). The engine sounds and feels like when I first bought the car and after I tuned up around 83K mi. it's even faster now!
Sounds like you just had bad luck with your Civic but it wasn't too bad. I 've seen a lot worse with VWs. My friend got rid of his '89 Jetta when it had 80K mi. He replaced almost everything in the car except for the motor!! He had to replace the water pump at least twice! Starter, oil pump, voltage regulators, alternators, radiator, you name it! I 'm sure the VWs are better now but I just got a phobia and stay away from them after seeing what my friend went through. I wouldn't blame you either if you didn't buy another Honda but if you had a VW it might 've been worse. You definitely didn't have "your average" Honda but again I don't think your problems were that great either IMO.

nasaboy · April 2000

Structural rust causing the car to fall apart is not trivial. Working at a large facility, I see lots of parked cars. Hondas have the worst rust of any Japanese brand. My favorite is that stupid strip they still put on the inside of Civic rear fenders and used to put on Accords. Is it because the paint can't handle junk from the road being tossed up there? In any event, that rubber traps water and causes rust at either end of the strip. Without exception. I have yet to see European stuff of any ilk that rusts like a Honda.

Back to the rest, being towed is not trivial. As far as the other stuff goes, my point is that Hondas are NOT bulletproof. My brother has spent more to maintain his Accord than his Blazer. On the subject of that Accord (63 K), its an '87. I have driven it up windy canyon roads in Utah and though it was a great handling vehicle, better than my Civic. I test drove an Accord EX a couple of weeks ago and thought it handled much worse than my Civic. I think Honda engineers have some work to do.

mnn · April 2000

Today I test-drove the 1.8T 5-speed, and boy, I am in love - big time!!! But there is one problem, the dealer stands so firm on the MSRP and would not knock off a cent! It is a supply and demand problem, here in Canada, there are only a couple around (in Toronto, at least) and the average waiting time is about 2-3 months. Does anyone know what the invoice price for the 1.8T?? I don't seem to be able to find it anywhere (including this site). Plus, one dealer offer me a Jetta 1.8T at a Golf 1.8T price, is that a good deal?

My test car comes with sun-roof and alloy wheels and heated seats, and the going price is CDN$30050 on the road with a CD thrown in. I think it is absurd. Any opinion on what the fair price for the car should be?? Do I have more bargaining power if I am willing to wait longer?

One more thing, the dealer told me that any Golf 1.8T that is now in stock is German made,and anything after mid-May would be made in Brazil; is there any truth in that statement??? Does it REALLY matter as in where the car is made (quality-wise)?

My heart is still pounding after the drive, and I feel intoxicated, unable to think straight, please help!!

isellhondas · April 2000

Your experience is pretty typical and that's why I like (and sell) Hondas. Are they "bulletproof"?

Of course not! They are pretty predictable however.

Since I live in Seattle where it rains constantly but seldom snows and the roads aren't salted, I can't respond to the rust issue.

I have seen older Hondas with some rust but no more than other cars.

Nasaboy...whatever you drive, you will need to open your wallet once in awhile!

only1harry · April 2000

I know how you feel. I felt the same the first time I drove an Integra Type-R (195hp) and the first time I redlined my GSR (8100 RPM).
Unfortunately if there are not that many Golf 1.8Ts around the dealers can charge whatever they want.
I 'm pretty sure I saw the Jetta 1.8T pricing here at Edmund's and the sticker was around $19,800 US (invoice about $2K less) which is around $26-27K Canadian. The Golf 1.8T should be less or the same as Jetta at the most. So the $30K Can. is way too much. Integra Type-Rs go for $32.5K over there!
Looks like your dealer added $3-4K on top of sticker. The car is not worth that much. You should wait and get a better price.

ultra · April 2000

If anyone lives in the Denver area and are looking to buy any sort of Honda, stay away from Planet Honda. My story: My wife and I test drove a CRV from Planet Honda. This was the first time we drove one. We made it very clear to the salesperson that we were not interested in buying that day, but were looking to do something in about 3 weeks. Everything went fine until we were almost back to the dealership. The salesperson asked us why we wouldn't buy that day. We said we were waiting for our tax refund so that we could put down a larger downpayment. He said we should lease instead of purchase. I informed him that we keep our vehicles more than a few years. This pressure from him kept up even after we returned to the dealership. He even asked us after we told him "no" several times if he should get the CRV all cleaned up for us to take delivery that day! We just walked away. That night we emailed the dealership our experience with this salesperson b/c we had talked to someone different several months before and had a totally opposite experience. The dealer's response was to have the internet salespeople contact us, who never addressed the problem we encountered, but were very eager to sell us a vehicle. We were contacted 3 different times by the internet salespeople.

There are several other dealers in the Denver area who do not use high pressure sales tactics. We purchased our CRV from Fisher Honda in Boulder. Ask for Suzi Smith or Craig Sweeney.

only1harry · April 2000

I live in New York but have seen many other people say bad things about Planet Honda in Denver. Some had the same experience as you too..

ultra · April 2000

Thanks for the feedback. If anyone is interested, you can email Planet Honda. This will make them realize they can't make people mad who have access to a computer. They are located at: http://www.planethonda.com

superben · April 2000

i am in the market for either a civic hb or a golf. i have done some homework on the specs but would like to hear some opinions on which is better. i see more hondas on the road but the vw offers lots more standard options. which do you prefer and why. i currently own a toyota p/u and am pleased with it but would like a more economical car and a little newer.

offham · April 2000

Just reading this site for first time as thinking of a Civic Hatchback as a commuter car.

We have a Planet Honda in NJ, and when looking for the Ody wanted high markup over sticker and a long wait. Even over the phone these guys really push, so have to conclude a high commission based operation. We never got the Ody as mark up over sticker and long wait.

only1harry · May 2000

The Golf is probably a little "better" car in the sense that you get a safer car that comes with ABS, has a weight advantage over the Civic (weighs 400+lbs more thus a little safer), has a better stereo and more standard options.
On the other hand you get what you pay for. The Golf is at least $3K more than the Civic HB and being heavier, it doesn't get as good gas mileage as the Civic. I average 35mpg on the highway with 96K miles on my '97 Civic 5-sp (going 75mph)
The Golf is also slower than a Civic because its 9HP advantage (and more torque) does not make up for the 400+lb difference but that may not be important to a lot of people.
I think that a Golf GLS with the Luxury package (sunroof and 15" alloy wheels) or a GTI GLS (both still with a measly 115hp) is in Acura Integra price territory and if it came down to an Integra LS (5-sp) or a Golf, the Integra is clearly the winner (which you can now get for about $17K - less than a GLS, due to factory-dealer incentives)

tenbones · May 2000

I don't own a civic hb, but my sister does. it's a '96 hb. No troubles to report about. While it may not have the horsepower of other vehicles it has enough power and space for the average college student.

She's driven it around los angeles and has had enough power to merge and quick moves that may be necessary..

Just got back from europe...and boy do they love their hatchbacks. They've got to ,since gas costs so much and they charge by the liter...ouch

jsbx · May 2000

Ok, then ZX3 vs. civic hatch...

I am a first time car buyer and collecting info. I know I should go with the old "proven" civic even tho it's more expensive and costs more to insure, resale value is proven. But having driven one...all I can say is, it was a bit dull. Plus, I am short, so I have to scoot the seat way up. I felt like I was pressed against the windsheild. Plus, god forbid the airbag deploys....my head would snap off I sit so close to the wheel.

the focus was fun. sure, I am sucked in by the new design, I won't lie...but I enjoyed to the ride, felt comfortable and I wasnt even squished with the seat all the way up.

I am a first time new car buyer...I have a 125 mile a day roundtrip commute, so I have to have something reliable, but all that time is more depressing in something I am just "ok" with.

I just dont know....

any thoughts?

mzn · May 2000

Friends, if you'd like to compare the Focus ZX3 and the Honda Civic hatchback, please start a new topic so we can keep our topics straight. I'm interested in the comparison and look forward to seeing what folks think. Thanks!

carlady/host

jsbx · May 2000

How do you start a new topic?

mzn · May 2000

To start a new topic, go to the main conference page. You can do that by using the Return to Topic List button (just above and to the right of this reply box) or the Topic List button at the top of the topic page.

So, when you are on the Hatchbacks conference page, look to the left of the bold word "Hatchbacks." You will see two buttons. If you select Create Topic, you will get a dialogue box similar to this one. It will allow you to name the new topic. Choose well, as topic names cannot be changed by anyone, even hosts.

After you've chosen the topic title and written the first post in the box, I recommend Spellcheck. Make any necessary corrections and then click Post. And you've done it! You've created a new topic.

If you have more questions, please feel free to ask. I'm looking forward to your new topic!

carlady/host

only1harry · May 2000

I will 100K mi. today on my way home on my '97 Civic and knock on wood I 've had no problems with the car.
For fun you can throw out those boring tires and steel rims and put some 14x6" or 15x7" alloy wheels (must be light - 15lbs or less) with some 195-60 or 205-50 all season high performance tires and you 're set. I like my car a lot more now. It handles much better and is much more stable on the highway and at high speeds.
BUT, you should always go with the car you like and feel good sitting in. The Civic is my basic transportation since I have a 160mi daily commute and my sports car is for fun on the weekends.

181kmiles · May 2000

im sorry this is so late but im just reading this post for the first time.

i have a question about planet honda in denver.

how is there service dpeartment rated. please tell me if you know.

im going to college out in denver next year and i was planning on getting a job there. i heard only good things about there service depanrtment but then again when you call the dealership you dont hear bad things. ill be attending an automotive college in denevr and i need a job. i drive a honda, i love hondas, in my opinion there is no better car then a honda. so it would be a good place for me to work ( not planet honda nessesarily but any honda dealership) so if you can get me some info about that dealerships service department and let me know via email

t_kastanza@hotmail.com

i would really appriciate any help you can give me because the consumer is the best source of information. also if you could give me some advice on which honda dealerships service department is the best in the denver area.

thanx a million

181kmiles · May 2000

sorry for going off the subject i just needed to know about the dealerships reputations because my future depends on it

thanx for being understanding

181k miles

dieselrules · May 2000

Civic Si vw. Golf 1.8 Turbo

There is a magazine review (I have it at home) comparing these machines.
The Honda has 200 horses (versus 150 for the VW).
The Honda is a couple hundred pounds lighter.
So the Honda is quicker, right? WRONG.
The VW beats it in 0-60 times over and over.
Why? German horse-power vs. Japanese HP!!!
Japanese HP is almost a "theoretical" figure because you can't use it. Its always at MAX RPM and exists for a micro-second before you shift.
German cars have torque at useable RPM. You are in the power band ALL THE TIME, not hitting 200 HP for a micro-second.

PERFORMANCE ADD-ONS:
For $1000- you can replace the entire exhaust on a Honda and get another 10% power ... 15% if you're lucky.
For $500- you can bump a VW turbo to 200 H.P. and BLOW AWAY ANY STOCK JAPANESE CAR FOR SALE UNDER $50,000- (many companies make "chip upgrades" for this). This is the same engine that puts out 225 HP in the Audi TT (with a bigger turbo on it) and is used in Audi A4 rally cars putting out over 350 HP reliably! (see http://www.tap1.com for VW/Audi turbo race cars) It is one of the toughest engines in production.
But even stock, its monstrous torque from less than 2000 RPM means it will launch from a stop-light while a Japanese car is either:
1. puttering up towards its power-band
or
2. smoking one tire while the other slowly accelerates the car.

Even my diesel Beetle embarasses Honda and Toyota V6s off the stop lights and its only rated at 90 HP! (but by the other side of the intersection, while I'm shifting to 2nd they're just hitting their power-band in 1st and would rocket past ... if the traffic wasn't sitting still up ahead ... this is Seattle after all!)

mzn · May 2000

181kmiles, in addition to the responses you get here, please be sure to check out the Smart Shopper conference. I believe they have a topic on best dealers that could be helpful to you.

carlady/host

only1harry · May 2000

There is no Civic stock with 200hp.
Motortrend just test drove the Jetta 1.8L (turbo) with 150hp and put it up against the Nissan Sentra. The VW did 0-60 in 7.8s and the Civic Si with 160hp (it's the fastest Civic there is in the US) does it in 7.2sec.
Tell us which magazine you saw this in, what month and the page# please.

qword · June 2000

I've seen two different specs on the 1.8t Golf. SportCompact which was 8.2, and European Car which was the lowest at 7.3. In European Car they compared a 1.8t Beetle to an Si a few months back. They were able to launch the Beetle to 60 mph in 7.2 seconds. While getting the Si to 60 mph in 7.5 seconds. The Golf was supposed to be faster than the beetle because of aerodynamics and weight. I could be wrong but I do believe that the little Golf has always been just a tad faster than the Jetta.

alfaromeo · June 2000

However, simply looking at the numbers doesn't tell you much about a car's real potential. No one will argue that the Si is a powerful, performing little fun car. But in order to accelerate properly, like only1harry points to, you have to rev up the Honda engine a lot, to the point that it's the clutch which 'gradually' transfers the power to the wheels (not very elegant, makes a lot of noise, and wears out both tires and clutch in a fast time). It's exactly the same if you compare a Ferrari and a Porsche. Both are great (and fast) cars, but if your aim is to scratch other cars at green lights, go for the Porsche. I am not saying that car is better, it just has a lot more torque than the latin competitor. Interestingly, in Europe, high revving cars are associated with Southern Europe and 'torquey' engines with Northern Europe. Having spent much time in both regions, I am still undecided, and would love to see both a Ferrari AND a Porsche in my garage!
Formula One cars, I believe have a 1.5 liter engine from which they churn out 600-800 bhp. Weighing in at about 1000lbs, they will do the 0-60'' in about 2.5 seconds I believe, although their torque is absolutely miserable (these cars rev up to 16,000 rpm)

snakrich · June 2000

alfaromeo, for the good and enjoyable information!

alfaromeo · June 2000

You're welcome! My technical knowledge is not as thorough as that of many who participate in this column.
By reading some posts (and not only in this column) I get the impression that people get all worked up in trying to define the better car.
To me, that's nonsense.
Setting 'everything' aside, choosing between Honda or Wolksvagen is a question of what sort of driver you are. One is high revving, the other is 'germanic', i.e. low torque.
Assuming you drive a stick shift, this means that a Honda will require you to 'pull' through the gears, and to some that contributes to driving pleasure (more 'sporty'). You also need to down shift a lot more. Again, some like that style.
VW, on the other hand appeals mostly to people who like a 'no-nonsense' ride, with power and torque in the low range.
Better? More fun? There is no absolute answer to those questions.
Again, to make a proper analogy, Honda's roadster (I can't remember the name) is very powerful, yet produces very little torque. That is why it addresses another buyer than the guy who would buy a Mercedes roadster with the same power.
Blondes? Brunettes?
American food? French?
Italian ...shoes? or English?
Need we say more?

qword · June 2000

I completely understand where your coming from alfaromeo; however in my opinion the specs produced by the magazines can be pretty helpful in giving a person some type of an idea on the performance capability of a particular car. Take for instance any sport bike (which cost a heck of a whole lot less than any Formula One race car) which can be propelled from 0-60 mph in less than 3.0 seconds. Now I know for a fact that the best I can do 0-60 mph on a bike is about 4-5 seconds; however it gives me one heck of an ego boost to know that my bike is capable of reaching 60 mph in less than 3.0 seconds. I know that I don't have a way with words like most people, but hopefully you can see my point.
Only1harry, this months issue of Sport Compact has a VW Golf 1.8t vs Honda Si article which is pretty interesting I think.

only1harry · June 2000

I 'll try and get hold of one. Until I do can you summarize the tests a little? I 'm sure they liked the VW better. I would too because of the torque. I 'd take a 1.8L over a 1.6 which is why I chose the Integra GSR after looking at the SI.
I 'm really glad there is a mid-level VW now. The gap was too big before between the 115 & 170 V6 motors.

liwen · June 2000

I'm interested in the Golf GLS and the Civic EX. I'm leaning towards the Golf after I test drove it (it was a lot of fun to drive!), but I still have some questions:

1)Is the Golf GLS is a good investment?
2) How reliable is it? I plan to keep it for awhile
3) Any great deals? Great warranties?

Thanks,

only1harry · June 2000

My '97 Civic just hit 100K mi. The car has been back to the dealer once for a warranty repair (stupid speed sensor). That 's it!
Most of my friend's that have owned a VW have spent a lot more time at the dealer before and after the warranty is over. This is my reason from staying away from VWs. I 've also seen a few new ones on flat bed tow trucks with the temporary registration and plates on them! But I 'm sure there are some good ones out there. I don't think all of them are like that. I think the new Golfs are built a little better than the Civic as far as the chassis, stability, stuff like that (hek they 're 400-500lbs heavier, they ought to be) but a Civic will always blow away a regular 115hp Golf or Jetta due to its power to weight ratio. The '01 Civics will be a lot more comparable to the Golfs and other cars with more standard options, better handling and even more power but with the same or better gas mileage! If you can wait, fine. If not, you can't go wrong with an EX and you 'll have amazing resale value and reliability. My friend's '95 EX just hit 130K mi. and he 's never had a problem (has kept up with the maintenance of course, you have to) and a guy at work has almost 240K mi. on it but he just recently paid for a new head gasket which is normal at such high mileage (normal for a Civic, most cars blow a head gasket much earlier). The Golf will be more fun to drive, a little safer probably due to ABS, better stereo, etc. Good luck.

cdyer · June 2000

Both the Honda & Golf are great, here are my opinions/answers to liwen's questions:

1. NO car, and I mean no car, is a "good investment." New, used, classic, whatever. Car ownership is a losing proposition. You simply have to weigh your preferences vs. your budget. (like "should I buy used and save money, but expect repairs, or buy new & have a warranty?") If you "need" a new car, typically leasing is the best alternative for many folks.

2. Since the new Golf/Jetta family is totally new as of last year, I wouldn't worry about reliability. VWs totally turned around in the last 2 years.

3. Check Honda's & VW's websites for their warranties. Typically the best time to buy in fall to year-end, when dealers want to max their balance sheets and clear old inventory. Also, check your local weekend paper & online buying services.

To all, I've been following this thread, interesting. But keep in mind that VW is consciencely trying to move their products & company upscale, hence their slightly more luxurious look n' feel & higher prices (according to their CEO Ferdinand Piech). Honda, however, is perfectly happy where they are.

There's also a lot of bunk here (mine included!

), so I suggest: "Car n' Driver" as the best, most objective car rag. Great for helping decide what vehicle is right. (no, I don't work for 'em!)

That's my $.02.

dieselrules · June 2000

I've been off-line for a while (put 1000 miles on my Beetle TDI this last week alone).

Although Only1Harry says VWs have lots of problems, he refers to the older ones.
They are no longer competing with Honda, they are competing with Mercedes now. (see the V8 Passat at the next Detroit Auto Show).

As for value, if you look at 15-year old cars for sale, there are as many VWs as Hondas even though there were a lot more Hondas sold. The VWs last longer. But if you're in the market for a new car the value when its 15-years old is irrelevant. You'll have traded it long ago.

Honda makes awesome cars too, but I have a bias.
I'm 6'5" tall and I don't fit in any Honda!
Or the Golf ... only the Beetle and Passat.

The Golf is roomier and safer, but thousands of dollars more than a Civic ... its not an even comparison. All VW cars have 4-whl discs with ABS, and 4 air-bags which is part of the price difference. High end models have stuff like rain-sensitive automatic wipers ... I don't think that an option on ANY Honda/Acura model yet.

But they are very different cars in handling, seating position, response, etc.

Try them both and buy whatever you like and can afford.
You can't go wrong with either of them!

(IMO - I don't think there are any Japanese or European made cars sold in North America that are "bad" cars ... but some of the Korean stuff I'm not so sure of)

dieselrules · June 2000

Unless you barely drive a car, I think the VW base 2.0 liter is a dud of an engine.

If you want performance, you NEED the 1.8 turbo.
Chip-it and you have 200 reliable HP.
Its much more economical than the V6 and faster.

If you want economy get the TDI diesel.
Its faster than the base gas engine too!
At some Canadian dealers (where gas is a bit pricier) sales of Diesel Golfs is now greater than gas powered models (and VW does NOT advertise their diesel engines).

sentra20ser · June 2000

Check out the lastest SCC(sports car compact). It has a comparision between the 2 cars. The Honda had a slight edge in handling. 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are almost equal. They both agreed that the VW had a better motor. In the end they said it really was a choice. The GTI was 2 grand more. The GTI is more of a car then the 2 grand difference. I myself would choose a GTI. I race both a '97 GSR and '84 VW GTI at weekend autocrosses. For the 80 more horsepower the GSR produces it really is not any faster around a sea of cones. The GTI is always within a second of the GSR. If the GTI was setup nearly as well as the GSR it would be faster. German cars rule!!!!!

goop · June 2000

Hi All - these are all great cars, it's true. Civics are fine cars - I came close to buying an Si but got a GTI 1.8t. My reasons are many, but personality is one of them. Yes, the Civic is a fine car, but hello? Personality? Those things are as bland as English cooking - in my humble opinion, that is.
Which is not to say that I'm one of those new Mk IV owners who's been swayed by VW's new upscale image - I unabashedly love the cars and the company. What has Honda put out to match the likes of a Scirocco or Corrado? That's what I mean by personality.
Again - I'm not trying to put down Hondas at all. I'm firmly convinced they are more reliable (less stuff to break). My $.02...

snakrich · June 2000

How do you mean, my friend? After all, the base Civic has 16 valves, the Golf a mere 8; the Civic and independent rear suspension, the Golf a mere twist axle which certainly enploys fewer parts. Perhaps Hondas are more reliable for, shall we say, substantial reasons. Now, substantiate yourself!

goop · June 2000

Hiya - I guess I'm coming from an electrical/gadget perspective. German cars have an unfortunate reputation for occassionally being a bit finicky in the electrical department. A friend of mine with a '00 GTI GLX has had some problems with his power windows, and I've read more than a few posts about similar issues over at the vortex. I'm not sure how substantial that is since that does boil down to hearsay, but just the fact that that VW is more feature laden than the Honda gives it more opportunities to break.

And after rereading the topic of this thread I see it's about the Golf versus a Civic DX, but the GTI 1.8t has 20 valves.

Which one are you looking at - the 1.8t or the VR6? I guarantee you'll be thrilled. After almost 2000 miles I still sometimes crank the up the Average White Band and drive for an hour after work, and it always puts a smile on my face despite crappy Houston roads.

eludwig · June 2000

If you'd rather spend time with your friends and family than your dealer's service department, buy a Civic. Sure, Golfs are loaded with equipment, but they have a sketchy service record, get embarrasing mileage for a car in this class, handle like a Buick (these days), and come at a totally unjustified price. Oh, I forgot to mention that dealers can't guarantee getting you the car you want. Overall, the Civic is a much better deal, is more fun to drive since it has a far superior 5-speed and motor, and is guaranteed to last 200k miles if serviced regularly.

only1harry · June 2000

My friend is up to 240k mi. on his '91 Civic. He replaced the head gasket at about 210k mi. and the car 's been doing fine. He 's on the original clutch!
I 'll hit 102k mi. on my way home today,
('97 DX htbk) and my exhaust hasn't even begun to rust. I 'll be really happy with another 50K troublefree miles and then I 'll buy another Civic.

rjjensen · June 2000

crack 200K sometime in August. I am planning on keeping it after I buy something else. I have only changed the timing belt once and the clutch is the original.

What can I get a new civic hatchback for? An SI in particular? What are people paying?

Thanks in advance!

rjj

sentra20ser · June 2000

I have drove Honda's since I first got my license.
I loved them. They are reliable. They are fun,
but they are also a little on the cheap side.
After owning a VW you will feel the same way about
Honda's as you do about Toyota's now. They are
good cars, but just lack a little personality. The VW price is very reasonable. There is nothing under 20 grand that will touch the quality of the interior in a VW. If Honda was smart they would have made a SI version of the hatchback. We all know Honda could do it, but instead they put the good motor in the coupe. Another thing I don't like about Honda is the idea of running a 1.6L. Why not bump it up to 1.8L or 2.0l? It is amazing what kind of difference a little displacement will make. I owned a '94 GSR coupe with the 1.8 VTEC. It was a fun car. It had enough low-end to keep me from redlining it in every gear to get around, but was a monster above 6000 rpm. I drove a friends '99 Civic Si. The motor is ok in the VTEC range, but was real boring everywhere else. VW could do something to improve their cars too. The 2.0L 8-valve is a great motor, but its time has come. Why not
bring back the 130hp 2.0L 16v of the early 90's as
the base engine? It would make the car much more appealing to performance enthusiasts. Also the VR6 is finished. We all know the GOLF 1.8T is a performance chip away from being faster then the GOLF GTI VR6. Why not replace the GOLF GTI VR6 with a TT powered Golf GTI? The 180hp and 180lbs of torque in the GTI would make the GTI a real burner. The TT motor is the same 20-valve 1.8L turbo engine. It just has a larger turbo to force more air in the motor. I will still stand by the VW as being a better buy. The reliability is very similar in both cars. My 84 GTI has 200+k on it and is still going strong. It has never been rebuilt and has been autoxed almost every weekend since new. I bought it used as the second owner. It never sees anything but track time now, but it still runs strong. If I was going to drive a car for 100k I would much rather do it in a VW. German cars Rule!!!

eludwig · June 2000

To address a few points:

Honda chooses lower displacement because their VTEC technology allows them to optimize both fuel economy and acceleration. Luckily, their cars have flawless 5-speeds to make revving a pleasure. VW has yet to accomplish either of these feats.

Honda is dropping the hatch altogether because they don't sell. VW pushes them because they're a novelty in the US and it's how they built their business.

This "personality" VW owners refer to seems to be based on quirky design. Just look at the instruments on the new VW's, the crummy HVAC controls, numerous electronics problems (posted on this site), and the Euro-breadbox exteriors. Finally, it seems so many VW owners reply to Honda fans' questions about VW shortcomings with the possibility of some ill-conceived aftermarket part that will solve the problem.

Finally, everyone talks about the "quality" of the new VW's. Funny, because they've only been around a few years. Quality is earned over time, not from your first depression of a button.

Honda still makes a better performing car. Period. VW, with corporate goals of making higher volumes of cars, appears to be headed in the wrong direction. And the sign's pointing to their troubled plants in Mexico.

goop · June 2000

1. Not all of us want to rev the crap out of our cars to elicit sporty performance. Also, some of us like to be able to climb hills.

2. Hondas hatches may not sell; VW's do. That's not saying one is better than the other. I bought my hatch not as a novelty but because it's functional and my car will be the crap out of an SUV on the road, where 90% of SUV 'drivers' take their vehicles.

3. Don't even compare the VW's interior to a Hondas. No comparison at all; the VW's interior is light years ahead of the Hondas. Ill conceived aftermarket parts? WTF? Honda has huge aftermarket support. It's not to address shortcomings but rather to tweak the vehicle to the owner's desired design. Geez, what a cheap shot to make.

4. Quirky design - sure it is. Quirky in terms of personality, something that Japanese cars are a little behind in these days. "Quality" has several metrics. Quality may refer to long term reliability, fit and finish, performance, or many other aspects of a vehicle. I know several old dubs that are still on the road, just as I know several Hondas. So?

5. Fantastic. That's your subjective opinion. The performance specs between these cars are so close that's it's ultimately up to the driver. Regardless, I like VW's much more than Civics- and I can say this without resorting to making cheap shots and saying how crappy Hondas are, 'cause they're not.

6. Quit trolling and say something useful. You ask about what makes a VW special in our eyes, say that you don't want to start an argument, and then post inflammatory remarks that show an obviously closed mind.

eludwig · June 2000

The points I raised actually weren't jabs, but points noted in both Passat and Golf forums by VW owners like yourself. My goal was to derive what this VW "personality" is, and nobody's defined it yet.

The last cool VW in my opinion was the claasic early-'80's GTI. Had to rev it high, could toss it into turns, and had "personality". I beg you to explain how you see these same qualities in the current Golf

No more remarks.

only1harry · June 2000

I don't think we need to start another war, but Eludwig was just voicing his opinion. I don't think he attacked anyone in particular. He was pointing things out about VWs that in his opinion are not so good.. How can his remarks be inflammatory if he weren't refering to anyone in particular but the Manufacturer?

I think it's all very simple. Honda puts slightly smaller displacement engines in their cars because they 're more fuel efficient and the Civics are much lighter than a Golf, in the neighborhood of 400+lbs.
VW uses bigger displacement motors to provide enough torque to compensate for the weight. But 115hp out of a 2.0L engine? Com'on.. A Neon has had more power than that with the same displacement for over 6 yrs now! The Civic EX has had 125-127hp since 1992 with only a 1.6L. The Civic's torque is very comparable to its displacement (107ft-lbs vs 122 in the 2.0L Golf)
The Integra's 1.8L engine has more torque than the Golf's 2.0L. Geez, what happened there? Simple answer, better technology my VW friends. I mean who still uses 2v per cyl. engines? That's old technology! Honda has always been able to put out more HP per liter and longer lasting torque throughout most of the rpm band than most cars except for maybe 1 car that comes to mind (Ferrari, but I think the S2000 has it beat in output per liter)
In any case look at the Golf GTI GLS. It stickers for $18,200 and you still get a 2.0L 115hp 8V motor! A 140hp Integra LS only stickers for a $1K more. You get 25hp more, a couple more lb-ft of torque and the same standard options that you get in the GLS and maybe more. The Integra's interior is top notch quality.
But forget the Integra. The 160hp Civic Si is even cheaper. It may not have the built quality of the Integra (but it's not too far behind) and ABS, but you get a lot of bang for the buck.
I think it's unfair to compare the Civic HB to a Golf because of the price difference and in my opinion they don't really compete. Had there been a Civic HB Si (127hp) like the last generation, with a couple of standard options for a couple of $K more, then it might 've been a fair comparison. The Golf's just has more standard options and sticker for a lot more than $11-12K. The best part is, a Civic CX/DX 5-sp. will blow a 2.0L Golf away.
If I paid $15-16K for my Golf, I 'd want to at least keep up if not beat $11-12K cars at the light, wouldn't you?
Sentra20ser: I agree with a lot of things you said, but honestly, would you rather drive a 130hp 16V GTI or an Integra GSR? I 've blown away many of VR6s in my '99 GSR and with some simple suspension mods I 've done, they can't keep up with me on highways (I 'm talking very high speeds) or winding back roads. They try, but none have succeeded yet. One of these days a modded VR6 may come along and maybe whip my bu*t but until that time, I 'll be whipping theirs.
PS. I also have a Cold air intake (9% more HP at the wheels, on the dyno..)

goop · June 2000

I guess I got a little riled about the aftermarket availability to address shortcomings comment. Sorry if I came off as a bit sparky.

But I am having much more fun at work with this little exchange.

Eludwig, the MkI and MkII Golfs and GTI's were pretty darn cool, and if I had the time and expertise I'd snap up a MkI GTI today. The MkIII's? Well, they got a little heavy, and the 2.0 8v is a pretty run of the mill engine that will get eaten for lunch by a lot of other cars and trucks.

However, the MkIV 1.8t's are pretty cool, especially with the GTI badge. The current crop of VW's are just very different cars than their predecessors. What they lack in spunk, though, they make up in refinement.

I don't know if I can answer your question about personality. Is it the heritage? Is it the cool dash display when the headlights are on? The lines? The silly commercials? I dunno. It's something that can't be put into words. I think the Civic is a fine car, especially the Si, but I just can't get excited about it. Again, just my opinion.

Aren't you in the new car market? Keep us posted with what you get. My GTI is my second new car after driving a Nissan pickup for seven years, so you can imagine the difference I'm experiencing.

Only1Harry, you'd better be beating the pants off those VR6's. Integras are renowned for being some of the best handling vehicles out there.

Now when I get my chip and do some suspension/tire mods of my own, let's together. I don't know that any butt whipping that will be going on, but let's see who keeps up with who.

only1harry · June 2000

You 're on goop!

Actually I like the 1.8T's engine. That's what you have right? 150hp was just what the Golf needed and that of course comes with decent torque. With some suspension mods and some good tires you might be able to keep up :-) but not before you get that chip because right now I have at least a 30hp advantage over you.
On the open highway I hope you can go over 140 because I do that often and can change lanes very easily at those speeds (couldn't before my suspension mods and tires). Now to make this all happen you have to come up from Houston to NY!

There are plenty of auto-x races here too so we can race against time and avoid public roads..
Seriously good luck with the mods. The 1.8T has a fine motor and like you said it's in the TT. Since I hate V6s, if I were in the market for a VW, I 'd get the 1.8T too. I 'm sure there will be aftermarket stuff for it soon if not already. But if I ever turbo charge or supercharge my GSR, there would be no competition between the two cars at all, chip or no chip in the GTI. Even a modest 6psi boost supercharger gives the GSR an extra 60-70hp at the wheels (add 17-18% more and you get the the advertised HP at the flywheel). A low boost turbocharger easily adds 100whp or about 300hp total at the flywheel/crank of a GSR. So for now I 'll stay naturally aspirated against your turbo to keep things a little more even. And don't forget we have the same displacement!
You gotta love VTEC :-)

eludwig · June 2000

Goop- sorry. I should know people get offended when others question what they bought for their hard earned dollars. Just look at the age old Ford vs. Chevy truck debate. For a next car, I'm all over the place. Considerations (w/ my opinions) are:

* Integra GS-R sedan: amazing for $20k, but dated styling.
* Altima SE: bargains at hurting Nissan dealers, good performance all-around, reliable, but ugly.
* Golf 1.8T: cool cause I'm German, neat motor, nice std equipment, but uncertain reliability, okay 5-speed.

I REALLY wish I could drive an Alfa Romeo 156 2L. Talk about personality! Now there's a car where the driving experience far outweighs any reliability concerns. If you ever rent a car in Europe, try one!!!

qword · June 2000

For starters, I just happen to have a copy of my title from my 1994 Golf GL. According to it the weight of the car was listed at 2200lbs. I don't think of that as being to heavy. The engine in that car to me was marvelous. It loved to be driven hard which it was constantly, and although it only had about 115hp (stock) it was still able to perform well against Civics and Neons. Have any of you Honda guys/gals ever driven a Golf? Or is all of your negative feed back about the car based mostly on hear say and magazine reports? Also check the weight on an Si and then take a look at the 1.8t, there's no 400+ weight difference, and how in tarnation could anyone call the interior of the Golf boring while in the same breath dare to praise that of the civics.

goop · June 2000

eludwig - have you thought about the Celica GT-S? Great car, new styling, and a blast to drive. Yeah, the cable link shifting in my GTI does leave a little sumfin to be desired.

only1harry - you are definitely on. If I didn't have a band here in Houston I'd be living in NYC, and I'm always up for an excuse to drive somewhere. Give me some time on the tire/wheel mods - I'm trying to build a home studio, too, and IT pays well but not that well.

My dream car - the Audi RS4. Basically an Audi A4 wagon (Avant) with a 6 speed manual tranny, 386 hp/324 torque out of a twin turbo V6 and quattro. Oh yes, and beefy 18" wheels and okay I have to stop now and come back down to reality, since this beauty will never make it to the States. I wouldn't mind a Nissan Skyline for that matter, but the thought of a WAGON that destroys 90+% of what's out there on the road is just so appealing.

Qword - the first GTI debuted(?) at 1800 pounds. Since then, the cars have gotten heavier - the price of being safer and having more features. If you think Honda people can be tough on Golf's and 'newer' VW's, try talking to an air-cooled dubber fanatic. Now those guys are tough.

VW Golf vs Honda Civic

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