VW Golf vs Honda Civic

only1harry · August 2000

Import car enthousiasts should stick together although many seem to be German car fanatics as well as Japanese. I like both because I go autocross racing a lot and have seen what a modified GTI and Civic can do at the track. I guess we also stick with what we know and have learned to trust. My '97 Civic DX HB just turned 105K mi. and has only seen the dealer once for a broken speed sensor that was under warranty (the speedometer went dead which I liked because the odometer wasn't registering!). When it reaches 150K mi. I 'll most likely trade it in for another Civic only because I 've had good luck with this one. I have a lead foot, the car's been in 2 accidents (not my fault, $1250 and $5500!), it averages 80-85mph, and it doesn't burn an ounce of oil. My friend's '92 Civic head gasket went at 210K mi. and he gave it away to the neighbor's 16yr old. The kid replaced the gasket and is still driving the car. It's all about personal experience and what people around you recommend. As far as driving experience, etc. the Gold is probably a more solid car, being heavier and everything and comes with more options but it's also a few thousand more so again this is not a fair comparison.

ham535 · August 2000

I purchased a 2000 Civic HB DX in May and have found the automatic transmission to shift rough. Sometimes it doesn't seem like it knows it should shift when going up a hill. When it shifts on a flat road it almost feels like the brakes are being applied. Sometimes when I am driving slow it seems like it down shifts and feels like I am driving over a rut in the road. Should I be concerned about these characteristics? Please help!

only1harry · August 2000

All auto-trannies do this that were built from like '94 & up. They incorporate what is called fuzzy-logic technology. When the car is uphill, the tranny keeps it in low gear to hold the car back in case you 're in bad weather or whatever and it's also safer that way. The tranny actually brakes the car back, holds it back. This can be countered by stepping on the gas and accelerating downhill, the tranny will eventually upshift.
Same thing uphill. The tranny keeps it in low gear to give you more power. If it upshifts uphill your car will start slowing down. You need the high RPMs to accelerate uphill!
Now on a flat road it should be shifting pretty smoothly, some do, some don't. But if you think it shifts too hard and abruptly, you should bring it in and have it checked. Also try and get them to let you drive another automatic Civic to see what it does. I 've never driven a '96-00 auto Civic (I have older ones) and my '97 is a 5-sp.
The uphill and downhill symtoms you describe though, are identical in both my wife's old '95 Galant (lease-gave back) and her leased '98 Galant as well as many other autos that I 've rented in the last few years.
As far as I know, the Civic auto trannies shift fairly smoothly so there maybe something that needs to be done with yours. The dealer will fight you and tell you everything is normal. Don't accept that for an answer. Ask them to prove it to you (hopefully by letting you drive another recent auto model). Go to NHSTA's site too and see if there are any "technical service bulletins" on your car.

only1harry · August 2000

This is what I found at NHTSA's web site (www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems). This is a technical service bulletin from Honda and there should be a remedied by the dealer:
Service Bulletin Number: 00012
Bulletin Sequence Number: 125
Date of Bulletin: 0004
NHTSA Item Number: SB612545
Make: HONDA
Model: CIVIC
Year: 2000
Component: POWER TRAIN:TRANSMISSION:AUTOMATIC
Summary: VEHICLE MAY EXPERIENCE SYMPTOMS OF TRANSMISSION SHIFTING HARSHLY, OR STAYING IN FIRST GEAR. *MJS

This is why I went with the 5-sp. Honda has always had mediocre auto trannies. Even the Integra ones had problems up until 2-3 yrs ago. Honda makes one of the best manual gear boxes..
Mention this technical bulletin or printi it out and show it to the dealer if you decide to go see them about it.

ferdula · August 2000

I think I read on a web site that they are not making honda civic hatchbacks next year!!!
The horror of it all. Has anyone else heard this?

robg7 · August 2000

So. I agonize for months over whether to buy another Honda Civic (old one lasted 13 years without a problem) or a Golf.

I buy the Golf despite reservations about their reliability.

The day after I buy it I notice the automatic
transmission is very jerky. It gives my girlfriend a headache. That's not relevant, but it gives the story a mood of aggravation.

I take it back to the dealer.

They say "It needs a software reset". I say
"reset that software!".

Later they say "It needs automatic transmission
fluid". I say "pour in that fluid!".

Later they say "it needs a new automatic
transmission". I say "this totally sucks".

So I call VW of America and say "This is not what
I paid for. if I wanted a car with a repaired transmission I would have saved money and bought a used car. give me a new car". They say "Warranty" and put in a new automatic transmission.

I understand their view. The cant give out a new car everytime one of them has a substantial defect. Also, though I'm p.o.-ed, everyone from VW was very nice on the phone and probably a
good person.

In the end, however, I have a car that I don't have a lot of confidence in, already has a repair history to cough up when I sell the car, and generally dont want.

Tough beans for me.

Next time a Civic.

isellhondas · August 2000

Any new car can have a problem.

That is why warranties exist. It sounds like they took care of things for you.

You do not have to "cough up" the repair history....who would care anyway?

I am not a VW lover as the regulars here are aware.

Still, I'm sure it was an isolated problem.

Enjoy your car!

And...It's true...the last Civic Hatchbacks have been built. Too bad although the hatchback market is a declining one.

alfaromeo · August 2000

Here in NJ I see more and more and more...

For obvious reasons most of the newer ones are Golfs and Foci (plural of Focus).

I am certain that the hatch segment of the market is far from dead. Hatchbacks need not be 'inexpensive' cars to the point where the manufacturers view it as a thin-margin segment.

Golfs, Acura, Saabs, all those brand prove that you can market hatches in several different price categories.

On the other hand, I bet that 5 years down the road, the 'SUV years' will be a bad memory and most of those brontosaurs will be impossible to sell.

only1harry · August 2000

"On the other hand, I bet that 5 years down the
road, the 'SUV years' will be a bad memory and most of those brontosaurs will be impossible to sell."

AMEN again!

My neighbor has a green '00 Golf TDI and he 's already having problems with intermittent "engine" lights and stuff and they may be replacing the computer because the dealer doesn't really know what's wrong! His pissed because he 's only had the car since Feb. and he 's been to the dealer too many times. He raves about the gas mileage though but complains it's too slow (automatic). I told him there is a chip for it but would void the warranty. He said "that's the last thing I need right now"!

I feel sorry for him because he is a very passive guy and doesn't yell at the VW dealer as much as he should to get his problem fixed.

dudka · August 2000

i had two honda's before i bought a vw. let me tell you, the civic with 250 000 miles on the odo didn't need as much attention as the vw with little over 100 000 miles. thank god i didn't encounter any electrical problems that i have heard can be a real headache. but, i needed to replace water pump three times in three years that i owned it. a couple of times the car would overheat at highway speeds, but when i tested the thermostat it was fine. once i lost the sparks completely, then they reappeared the next morning when came up to the car with hands full of tools. the car wouldn;t start when hot, i had to replace the temperature sensor twice. i had to carry tools with me and spare parts when i drove long distance. that is how paranoid the car has made me. it wasn't funny when i was coming back from canada, and the custom's officer thought i was carrying the contraband. then he laughed when he saw that there were tools, and spare parts in the trunk.
i do admire vw's handling and an immpresive torque from an 8V engine.
when it was time to get a new car i had no doubts that i was getting a honda.

have you seen new audi's and vw's and for some reason the rear left brake light is always on. i see alot of the german cars with that problem. not only vw's and audi's but mercedes' and porche's as well. i wonder if it has anything to do that they share wiring harness made by the same company (bosch i think)

alfaromeo · August 2000

To me, although I have never owned any, there is no question that most japanese cars surpass the competition as far as reliability is concerned. I have owned three VWs without a single problem, and my present car is a new 2001 GTI 1.8t (so far so good). The cars that really make my heart go 'bang' are alfas, ...not exactly renowned for their reliability either - but as far as driving thrills, they are simply unsurpassed in my experience.

But then, I am not (yet) concerned about reliability to the point where it makes me buy Honda or Toyota. Sure, some of their cars (Civic Si, Integra, Celica) are both fairly exciting and original. But you cannot say that about the rest of the range. Some will retort 'RELIABILITY'!!! But, again, TO ME, that's not enough.

And at the end of the day, I am a little skeptical about posts like the own preceding this one. NO, I have not noticed that Audis and VWs and Mercedes and Porsches drive around with a brake light on. Give ME a ...brake! There is no arguing that those cars will not be as trouble free as a Honda Civic or Accord - but you are comparing apples and oranges!!!

On the other hand, I see thirty (or forty) year old Beemers, Porsches, Mercedes, - and yes, even VWs just about everyday. How many Japanese cars from the same period do I see? Nada, zilch, zero. Some will argue that 'they' only made motorcycles back then, but I still see more old BMW bikes than Kawasakis!!!

Mercedes, with its E-Class produces the arguably absolute reference of reliability as far as I know (in my home country, they are the only cars which cab owners buy, with a lifetime horizon of well into 400K miles).

The Golf is the best selling car on a stand-alone basis in Europe. It certainly wouldn't have achieved that status with a flawed reliability image.

Now, to set things straight: I don't dislike Japanese cars. In fact, every now and then, we see some true original cars coming from the land of the rising sun. I love the Miata. I really like the Nissan ZX 280 and 300s. I think the Mazda Millenium is beautifully styled. The Acura is an elegant and no-nonsense sporty hatch. The small Civic hatches have always had a warm place in my heart (not the US stripped-down version though). The Mazda rotary engined sportscars had my fancy for a while.

So again, apples and oranges. We all welcome the Japanese cars for their reliability. We should also give 'other' car manufacturers their due, for being bold enough to be creative and producing cars which light up our passion. I say thank you Enzo and Ferdinand!

hprickettx · August 2000

That's not a brake light, but rather, a parking light. Those cars must have been produced in Germany and imported. There is some kind of law in Germany (or used to be?) that cars parked overnight on the street must have parking lights on the traffic side. So German cars have a switch to turn on either side of the parking lights. Owners of those vehicles you have seen must not realize the switch is on or what it is for.

alfaromeo · August 2000

I remember forgetting that light myself when I drove a rented Merc back in Germany. That explains it.

only1harry · August 2000

You have an '87 Integra with 275K mi. on it and you 're on the original gear box and everything? wow! What about the clutch? Is it auto or 5-sp?
I love g1 Integras (actually like all gens)
My friend had bought a new '88 Integra LS. I would drive his car every chance I got. It was pretty similar to my friend's '86 Prelude Si which held a special place in my heart, with similar engine and handling characteristics, (Prelude was a little better) etc. In '94 he sold it with around 95k mi. on it because he though it might start giving him problems since it's nearing 100k mi. I told him he is crazy.. I wanted to buy it but since my car at the time was only a couple of years old and was paying for 2 cars (wife's too), I couldn't afford it. He sold it to a mutual friend who still drives the car today with over 200K mi. on it. He did have to replace the clutch and pressure plate though about a year ago but that's about it. Oh I think the radiator had a leak and he got a used one recently. I think that's because he drives on dirt roads a lot to get to his log cabin (vacation home). A couple of the doors are starting to rust though. 275k though is an accomplishment with almost no problems like you said. We 'd be courious to know when you hit 300K. Please let us know!

sunilb · August 2000

>The Golf is the best selling car on a stand-alone
>basis in Europe. It certainly wouldn't have
>achieved that status with a flawed reliability
>image.

Let's not forget the quotas and tariffs that the EU places on imports... thereby limiting the saleability of Japanese vehicles. Just my $0.02

dudka · August 2000

vw is doing great in europe because they selll them cheaper there than they do here. no one would pay $18G in germany for a VW.

only1harry · August 2000

They transport them much cheaper too. They put them on a train and they can get to like 90% of Europe that way. In my last trip to Greece, people were drooling over the Civic VTI hatcback with 170hp (GSR engine!) but it was too expensive compared to the Golfs and GTIs due to the heavy tarrifs on anything that's not European made. The Type-R's sticker over there (called Honda not Acura) was $30K, compared to $24,8K here in the US! That oughta tell you something..

alfaromeo · August 2000

Europe has long since dropped the 3% import quota on Japanese cars (which was in retaliation to a near-total ban on imports into Japan). And today, Japanese cars sell very well in Europe, thank you. Many - if not most - Japanese cars sold in Europe today are made there (GB, Netherlands, France...). For those models made in Japan, transportation costs are really not much of an issue. I know: I've worked in shipping for many years. The Japanese have some of the worlds 'ro-ro' (roll-on/roll off) carriers in the world, and believe me, the shipping cost per unit is just about nothing. And at the end of the day, it is any manufacturers choice to overcome shipping by localizing production - again, the Japanese manufacturers have all done that.
At the end of the day, the European market and the US market are very different. To appreciate those differences, I guess you'd have to live 'over there' for some time. Small cars are the norm for many reasons. Hatches are often considered more appealing than small sedans. There are about 40 different hatches to choose from, with at least 5 new models coming out every year. So it's not like here, where you have a handfull of offerings in terms of hatches or fastbacks. You have PLENTY!
In short, it's within the confines of an extremely competitive market that VAG (Volkswagen Audi Gruppe) are succesful: that's what I meant by my former post. They may not produce the MOST reliable cars, granted, but they would never sell as well as they do if their cars were unreliable. Simple as that.
As far as pricing - someone mentioned that noone would pay 18 grand for a VW in Germany. Well, if you're referring to a basic model, you're right. But I believe the 4-motion kick-[non-permissible content removed] Golf sells around that price if not more. Anyway, comparing prices is rather ludicrous. Currency fluctuations and pricing policy on the part of manufacturers are just a few factors which make up for the difference. With today's strong dollar, most imports should be cheaper than a few years ago. But hey... that's a completely different discussion.
As to why Hondas don't sell even more cars in Euroe than they actually do, I could explain that in a new post. But it has little to do with reliability issues (mainly bad marketing, high service costs and a few more things...)

alfaromeo · August 2000

I couldn't help but come with ONE explanation on Honda's main issue in Europe: it lies at the heart of their cars: a high-revving engine. While most Europeans will agree that Honda has extremely good engines, they have a major drawback: engine noise. Just about every commuter in Europe will drive at 100mph to work, each way, every workday of the year. And while a high revver can be a lot of fun, it's also tireing day after day after day.
Remember that of all European makes, the German ones are those which have specialized in high-torque-at-low-rpms engines. No wonder, it's called the 'autobahn-effect'.
On the other hand, the Italians are much 'closer' to Honda in their taste for high revving engines. Less autobahns, and a lot more curvy roads which invite spirited driving...
If you guys wanna have a few more reasons, just for the hell of it... I can give them to you.

I really think that Japanese companies should hand over marketing management to 'locals' at the end of the day. Unfortunate but true, good marketing is also important!

dudka · August 2000

i would disagree with you (alfa) you are right about honda's revving high, but the engine noise is not that bad. i dirve to work every day at 80 mph (yes i have tons of speeding tickets, but that's another issue) and there is no engine noise in my civic ex. now look at ford's best selling small car, focus, it is the noisiest 16 valve engine in the history of over head camshaft engines. when i drive my girlfriend's ford, the engine noise at 3000 rpm in ford is much greater than engine noise of a honda engine (ex in particular) at 7000 rpm. i used to have a 91 vw jetta (8V) it was much noisier than my civic. and it revved higher at 70 mph (more engine noise). honestly, my 85 civic without an exhaust system (exhaust header emptied out in the air) was just as loud at highway speeds as ford or VW. it was thunderous at take off but once at speed it was quiet.
so, i don't think it is the reason. what are the other reasons you had in mind?

alfaromeo · August 2000

You're right. The whole market buying patterns can be argued based on your civic ex, the new Focus and some 10-year old VW. I should have known!

only1harry · August 2000

The Civic DX/LX and EX coupes and sedans are pretty quiet. The CX & DX hatchbacks (like I have) on the other hand have a little more road noise due to the open hatch area, where the coupes/sedans' interior is isolated from the trunk..
I have heard from several people that the ZX3 is not that quiet inside at highway speeds, but I do know that an EX is relatively quite at 65-75mph because many friends & relatives have '93-99 EX coupes and I 've been in and also driven many of them. Don't know why Honda's don't sell too good. If I lived in Europe I 'd probably buy a VW too just because it's European and made by a neighboring European country. Before the Golfs and GTIs, all of Europe was full of Mercedes Benz. Europeans are used to seeing German cars and Mercedes has always been reliable and a symbol for german automotive excellence. Oh, BTW, I was born in Europe, Athens Greece and lived there for 14yrs before I came to the states. I 've also been to Germany 4 times, Austria twice, Switcherland twice, Italy twice, France once (Paris) and England once.
So anyway, it's only natural for Europeans to relate to German cars because everyone was raised with Mercedes all over the place. I 'm 34 and lived in Greece until 1979. All you saw there were Mercedes Benz (most taxis too) and VW bugs. The only Japanese cars exported to Europe then, were Toyota and Datsun pickup trucks. Japanese hatchbacks and sedans didn't start hitting Europe till the late 70s and early 80's. We know the VW bug was the most popular car in the world for over 4 decades and we all grew up with them. So it's very natural and logical that the VW Golfs and GTIs sell well in Europe and better than Japanese. That 's my explanation and I don't really think the "high revving" theory would be my first choice.. It's an image thing and something Europeans grew up with: German cars

alfaromeo · August 2000

But Mercedes hardly dominates the market today. And the German cars, though very much respected (c'mon let's face it, some of the more exciting cars on the roads are still made in Stuttgart or Munich).
But the European car market is also French, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, English, ...even Polish nowadays.
The Japanese have a lot more quality cars to fight against.
The French have produced some exciting small cars over the past few years. The 205 GTI took over VW's 'gti lead' some years ago, and their 306 GTI with 2.0 / 176bhp car is still leading the pack in what would be the sub-20 grand class in the US.
There are NO artificial barriers to Japanese cars in Europe, just a lot more competition.
As far as Honda, yes, I do believe that they 'suffer' from the fact the Europeans (especially in Northern Europe) tend to prefer torquey engines. But I am also convinced that good marketing techniques could vastly improve their sales.
The Japanese may be good at producing reliable cars, but that just doesn't cut it in Europe. The competition is fierce and offers a lot more exciting machinery.
Someone will respond 'Peugeot' ha! or Italian cars" yeah, fix it again tony... But those people are really not up to date.
Peugeot and Alfa (and Renault, and probably a few others) HAVE burned their fingers in the us in the past and personally, I doubt that they will return (actually, Renault controls Nissan, so that's not entirely true). But that was 10 years ago. It's an entirely different product those companies are selling today.

Also, Harry, why doesn't Honda sell the GS-R in Europe??? If ONE of their coupes should be sold there, THAT would be the one! (instead, they chose the prelude with what is considered cheap styling back on the continent).

alfaromeo · August 2000

I realize that my posts are completely off topic in this forum, and I shall gladly take it where it belongs! (i.e. news)

mzn · August 2000

Thank you alfaromeo, please continue the conversation in the topic I created especially for you. :-) That would be European vs. Japanese vs. US Hatchbacks.

carlady/host

only1harry · August 2000

They sell the Integra Type-R in Europe but again in very limited #s. This is mainly because the Type-R's engine is hand built and they can't produce too many of them. What really slows them down is that they have to weigh the piston rods and many other engine parts to make sure the weight is identical with no weight variations like you find in mass produced cars where all the parts are mass produced by robots and go directly to the assembly factory where the cars are assembled by robots and only get checked out at the end by a human (quality assurance). The ITR assembly process is totally different and a lot more personalized/humanised.. Anyway the few Type-Rs they ship to Europe (and England) are quickly sold but like here, most people have never even seen one. The Type-R is also very popular in Australia where I read they had 20 times more orders than the # of ITRs that were actually shipped there. GSRs are also popular in Australia. I think the Prelude is considered a little big by Europeans. Europeans like light small pocket rockets. The Prelude is a compact to mid-size sports car and big by European standards. When I was in Greece though and my cousins asked me what I drive in the US I said a Honda. They both looked at me and asked if I had the Prelude and their faces lit up.. I told them no I only have a lowly Civic HB. They said well the Civic HB is great too with a lot of power. I said no it only has 106hp. They thought I had the 170hp Civic HB VTi that comes with the GSR engine because they only have the 160 & 170hp HBs over there.. Europeans seem to be a lot more performance oriented than Americans which is why Honda ships all their high end models over there.
There is also a Euro-Accord there with 215hp and near Type-R suspension and brakes.

only1harry · August 2000

These rankings were released recently by J.D. Power & Assoc. and rank the auto manufacturers by individual problems experienced per 100 vehicles.
As you can see, Acura leads everyone.

Results of J.D. Power's Initial Quality Study. Problems reported per 100 vehicles.
Be sure to look for VW is on the list (way way down there next to Hyundai!). Honda came in 7th with mostly luxury manufacturers ahead of it.

Acura 91
Lexus 103
Infiniti 107
BMW 118
Toyota 118
Porsche 122
Honda 126
Buick 130
Mercedes-Benz 134
Jaguar 137
Plymouth 137
Saab 138
Lincoln 139
Audi 141
Mercury 143
Cadillac 146
Volvo 150
Chrysler 151
Mazda 153
Nissan 153
Industry Average 154
Oldsmobile 162
Ford 162
Saturn 164
Mitsubishi 166
Pontiac 167
Chevrolet 168
Dodge 174
GNC 175
Jeep 188
Land Rover 192
Isuzu 193
Subaru 199
VW 200
Hyundai 203
Daewoo 211
Suzuki 224
Kia 251

alfaromeo · August 2000

In order to stay friends w/ the moderator, let's take this sort of discussion to the [non-permissible content removed]/euro/us column if u don't mind!

I am not surprised by the reliability of the Honda/Acura cars - albeit a bit by the bad score of VW. I must have been lucky w/ my cars!

alfaromeo · August 2000

Honestly, I am a bit skeptical about surveys like the aforementioned. Ok, I own two VWs and have owned some before, and personally I haven't had pbms with 'em. But that's not the issue, since it's not ...relevant (a statistician would say 'not representative', right!?) So don't counter argue with me on those terms! :-)

But when you think about it, HOW on earth do they make certain that the standard by which people answer is comparable?
It may well be that the 'VW' buyer profile is that of a person who is more likely to report minor 'glitches' (small rattle, knocking wipers, and so on) than a person who goes and buys a less expensive car like a Hyunday.
Also, it surprises me that two brands like Audi and VW, which share so many parts and platforms, are so far apart on the score. - Not to mention Saab (!) which is not known to be particularly reliable back in Europe...

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind regarding the merit of major Japanese brands (like Honda) and their scores are fully understandable.

But I do believe that VW's bad score could be explained by the fact that their customers are on average more demanding with regard to quality than are buyers of cheaper cars.
The only way to make a comparable survey would be to have a similar group of people judge the cars - which is why we have the car mags to help us out!

Just my two cents, I know it's a very subjective comment, but hey... it's only a thought.

dudka · August 2000

please don't forget that europeans alos have smaller displacemtn honda's to choose from. i am not sure on the 1.3L these days, but 1.5L civic is still offered. basically they have a wider range of engines to choose from. they have 1.8L accords along with 2.4L (or 2.2L) i think we americans as a country don't give a rat's ..... behind about the perfomance and fuel economy as long as we have A/C, plush interior, and we don;t have to feel every bump on the road. there are few of us, that do enjoy tight suspention and the wining sound or high revving engines, but not enough of us to make the market. i am sure most people buy porches and ferrari's not because of their characterisitcs, but because these cars represent a status symbol

bgene · August 2000

The Civic is a quality car, however, it is not the ultimate in reliability. My Civic (1988) has left me stranded beside the side of the road 3 times over the years. All 3 times was long before it was old and worn out. Overall I was still extremely happy with the car. The new ones flood the road and have no personality. In 1998 I replaced my Civic with a Cabrio. It has personality and will be two years old next month with no problems.

qword · August 2000

J.D. Powers also says that the Golf, Jetta, and the Passat are the most appealing in their classes.

danh10 · September 2000

I have a '97 Civic CX hatchback that is a pretty good car except for its too-soft suspension. If anybody has ideas on how I can (inexpensively) make this car handle a little better, email me at dkhenley@yahoo.com. I have already put wider, lower profile tires on, I'm wondering more about suspension upgrades. BTW, I would take a Golf over a Civic in a minute if they weren't so expensive...

Cooper · September 2000

You may want to call the folds at Rapid Parts and talk about suspension options: http://www.rapidparts.com. I've used them for years for VW parts, as I've owned VWs for 20 years. But they also carry Honda Parts. If you're in the northeast, they are located northwest of New York City, and they can install parts for you.

dudka · September 2000

you can put stiffer shocks in it. it should make the car handle better. try to find nitrogen charged shocks, in addition to above you can check out www.impactparts.com i have bought parts for VW from them before, but they also cater to civic's

only1harry · September 2000

Stiffer springs will make the car handle a lot better than stiffer shocks. You might need stiffer shocks after putting performance springs on the car, but shocks never improve handling as much springs do.
Get a set of Neuspeed Softsports or H&R OE Springs that drop the car .75" (1" after they settle) and are 30% stiffer than stock. Then the next best mod you 'll ever do is a Neuspeed 19mm rear sway bar. Cost of both springs and rear sway bar is about $340 + labor (about $200). This will transform your car and it's fairly inexpensive.
If you go with the regular H&R Sports or Neuspeed Sports, you car will be dropped as much as 2" and you will need to purchase a camber kit ($150) so that your tires don't wear out quickly. Drops of 1" and 1.25" are ok. Anything more than that and your camber goes way off and rapid uneven tire wear begins to destroy your tires

dudka · November 2000

saw a vr6 golf this morning. it looked really nice, and the acceleration was good. i say good and not excellent is because even though i have a 4 cyl civic ex, i was able to keep up with the guy once we got to the highway speeds. he may have had advantage from 0 - 30 mph but then we were even.

wordman93 · December 2000

Was the guy in the GTI even paying attention to you trying to race or keep up with him? Because I seriously doubt that the EX could hang with the GTI on the highway. But, I could be wrong I guess.

trale · December 2000

Excuse me if this seems like a dumb question, but are there civic hatchbacks with automatic transmission? All the ones I've seen so far are manual

only1harry · December 2000

Civic HBs came with auto trannies too. I waited 6 weeks until one of the dealers in my area got a 5-speed in. 4 dealerships and all they had, was autos. This was in Jan-Feb. '97.
The automatic Civics are slower than 5-sp. and probably not too popular because it defeats the purpose of buying an economy or fairly inexpensive car. The automatic HBs that were in the lot were almost $14K with A/C. And this is in '97.. Their sticker was like $12.4-5K but after you added $1,000-1300 for A/C (dealer installed always- ripoff), you might as well buy an LX 4dr that comes with more options. Anyway, it might be tough finding a used auto HB (since they don't make them for '01). They didn't make that many HBs to begin with and most owners keep theirs for a long time. Mine has 116k mi. on it already but I 'm keeping it for another year or two or till 160-170k mi. or so, sorry

I put mine up for sale about a year ago and listed it in the paper. I was thinking of buying the Si.. Anyway, I got so many calls I was amazed and I thought wow, my car is worth good money and people want it. I decided to keep it, well that plus the dealers weren't dealing that much in the Si's and I didn't feel like spending $17-18K on another Civic.

sentra20ser · December 2000

It has been a long time. How are things going? We got FTD with the GSR at the last race of the season. If you are a subscriber to the SPORTS CAR you will see a picture of our car in the event of the month section. I decided to buy a '01 NB Turbo. I drove a '01 2.0 for a week and loved it. My Turbo Beetle rocks. 17 inch wheels and dealer installed VW sport springs. I guess they are really Eibach Sportslines rebadged as VW springs. Do you think I will be able to race in stock class with them? Later and have a good new year.

only1harry · December 2000

Hey, what's up buddy? Congrats on your FTD!! I 've never even come close go FTD, how did you manage that? Actually it's not hard to imagine since my friends have gotten FTD 3 or 4 times with their stock Type-Rs on Kumhos. Your car's handling is probably just as good or better than a Type-R and you guys must be pretty good drivers, no doubt.
I got 7 trophies this year, most in DSP and a couple in STS (I still race on street tires). Four 1st place, two 2nd and 1 3d place which was the regional championships. I decided to race STS at the regionals since there were too many R tires in DSP and what do you know? STS was the biggest class that day. 21 cars!!! I flipped.. Modded Preludes, VWs, Accords, you name it. It was at a new location and I didn't know most of these drivers so I thought I didn't stand a chance at a trophy since they said they would only give out 3. Well I lost 2nd place by a thousand of a second to a V6 Accord heavily sooped up with race springs, big brakes and an extra 27hp (the guy showed me his dyno runs) from headers (2), exhaust & intake. 1st place luckily was my friend with his '98 Prelude SH. It was a very slow course and tight and required good torque so I 'm surprised I even did that well. The whole course was in 1st gear and everyone hit the rev limiter a couple of times. If you put it in 2nd it really hurt you.. I always do much better in faster courses. The GSR just doesn't have the torque to do well in a slow course.
Can I get the SPORTS CAR at the news stand, is it sold at stores? You 're not talking about Sports Compact Car, are you?
BTW, I got the car so neutral now by playing around with the adjustments on the Koni Yellows that the car 3 wheels with no problem on street tires! just like the Type-Rs. Next year when I put the Kumhos on, I doubt there will be any competition for me in DSP, in the 4 clubs that we race at anyway..
That was a good question about the 17" and the sports springs on the VW. There's been a lot of controversy about that. Nobody knows yet. I guess we 'll all know next year when the season starts if they allow that in the stock class. If I were you I wouldn't say anything and play dumb to see what happens.. In my opinion, the 17" wheels and sports packages on the GTIs and Beetles
should be allowed in stock classes because it is just a dealer installed option or it comes that way from the factory.
How much did you pay for the Turbo Beetle? A friend is looking at them now, and she was asking me how much she should pay for one.. She says if it's too much money she 'll get a Celica but I don't think they 're more than Celicas..

sentra20ser · January 2001

It all depends on what she wants. A loaded Turbo Beetle with every option will run about $22k MSRP. She should be able to knock off a grand off sticker. A stripped down GL will be about $16k. You have to remember stripped down means AC, alarm, keyless entry, and more. The 2.0 will be fine for a cruiser, but the 1.8T is a blast. I never have to worry about down shifting because it makes power at any RPM.

I will fight to stay in stock class. If the car is all VW equipment it should be considered stock. Other cars were considered stock, why shouldn't my car. As for the SportsCar mag, you should be able to find it at any Barnes and Noble. It is the December 2000 issue.

New question: Is Honda going to make a new HB in the US? I really like the new Civic EX Sedan. The exterior is very stylish, but I was hoping for a little nicer interior. I think the Beetle is really spoiling me. Let me know your thoughts on the new Civic. I would like to see Honda bring over a HB with power sunroof, AC, Keyless entry, PW, PL, and 1.7L DOHC VTEC with 16inch rims.

only1harry · January 2001

Well I 'm not crazy about the new Civics, but I 've seen a bunch of coupes around in my town and I 'm beginning to get used to them.. As far as power, the EX is still stuck with 127hp which was very hard for me to believe since the displacement went up to 1.7L from 1.6L. But the DX & LX benefited with a 9hp and torque increases.

You 'd like to see the next HB with a 1.7L DOHC VTEC? Wow! I 'd be ecstatic if they put the Civic Si 160hp engine in it, which they probably won't. Most likely they 'll offer it with the 127hp 1.7L, if that! As long as the new HB is light and has some decent power I might trade in my '97 HB next year because the mileage is piling up and I 'm almost up to 120k already (trouble free I might add). By next year or late this year it should have over 150k and that's usually where I draw the line and get a new car.
The GSR is garaged for the winter and its tires (Z rated) have never seen or touched snow here in NY since I bought it in July '99. It's eagerly waiting to race soon and so am I!! Are you definitely going to auto-x with your Beetle? What if you "chip" it and don't tell anyone? :-)

sellingzx3kona · January 2001

I have placed an order for a new car so I have to unload my 2000 Focus in Silver. It has Auto, Power everything, Factory CD player, factory 16 in wheels, a/c, and cruise control. I will sell the car with the waterproof seat covers and roof rack. I may also include the bike for a few more $$$. The car was bought in June 2000 and has 9900 miles on it. It has been faithfully serviced by the Ford dealership that it was purchased at. I have all of the records. The sticker was ~$16,500 and I paid about ~$15,200. I am selling it for $13,500. It is in perfect shape with NO dents, dings or scratches. I am the fanatical guy that parks way far out at the end of a parking lot to avoid these things. . It has also been garaged for all of its short life. VIN and complete pictures of the car available by request at kprince@myfirstlink.net. The car is in the Dallas metro area. Thank you for your time and have a great day!
Ken

civichb · January 2001

Please....I don't see why or how this is a comparison. Honda is simply a classic car. They are known for durability beyond belief and if you are into imports, you can appreciate just how nice a Honda can be made too look. I have a 99 Civic HB EX. Stickshift, cold air intake, exhaust, rims, Pirelli racing tires. It has 21 K miles.Now I'm sorry, with all due respect to the VW fan out there, there is simply no comparison. And I really don't understand how anyone can say that VW are "funner" .Civics also score better in safety. I just recently read in the newspaper about 2 teens killed in a Jetta. And price, I truly think that while you pay more for the Civic, you get your money worths more. And when you think about it, just about all Hondas are reasonably priced. They just seem more expensive when compared to a little VW! For example, my mom drives a Honda Odyssey. She paid 26 K for it. I t was overall rated the best purchase in its category and the second cheapest next to the Voyager. Have a little respect........you can't get a better offer than Honda. But to be fair, I also believe that you should purchase a car based on your lifestyle. Ivé been in about 2 or 3 VW's before. Now, I can say that maybe you're a little more comfortable inside, and the seats also are raised higher than a Civic(better vision). So if you want to have fun,get good gas milaege and you want performance for your money...go with the Civic. But if you want a basic car with an engine, 4 working wheels, and a nice interior that will get you from point A to point B....go with the VW. Just have a little respect for the good old Japonese and don't act as if it's an actual close comparison.....because it's not!

sebz · January 2001

I own a 97 acura integra GSR and a vw 01 gti turbo
I raced against a lot of civic ex with my GSR o-60, 1/4 miles, highways... there is no way that a little civic would be in front of me , not even a civic SI ,(i raced a couple of SI and they where all far behind). But against a 00 gti vr6 the gti is stronger on the highway. My gti turbo as a chip (1.0 bar 203hp, 211 lb)and now I can kick the [non-permissible content removed] of a stock! VR6
I have a lot of respect for Honda in fact my gsr is my third honda(hey I'm an honda fan!)but i have to say that the MK4 golf gti is not a match to a civic and not even to a integra (140hp), its something better at any point and one of the best point is the safety, civic are to soft, VW are strong cars (trust me I have a lot of exerience in crash test!! )so civic SI or golf Turbo = Golf for sure!!
Now can someone tell me how this lunatic civic fan can keep up with a VR6 ???????????

wordman93 · January 2001

I agree that there is no comparison between Honda hatchbacks and VW Golfs. The VW has so much more to offer. Better ride and feel compared to the Honda, looks better, more standard features, and IMO performs way better than the Honda. Yea Hondas are supposed to be very reliable but I know of serveral Honda owners that have had their share of problems also. Both are classic cars, but the older GTI is a legend while the older honda is just an older honda. No comparison......Maybe there needs to be a civic hatchback/ Ford Focus comparison instead. Also I would love to see a civic of any kind (EX/SI)keep up with a VR6 considering my friends stock EX can't outrun my TDI that only has an after market intake.

civichb · January 2001

Some of the things youvé said I find hard to believe. For one, every source of car info including certain websites have stated that VW are not very safe. And what do you mean "strong cars"? I mean, I understand what you're trying to say by that but the safety of cars doesn't always depend on stiffness or strength of the frame. It also depnds on how it is built. Honda uses statistics and developes their car based on where the majority of impacts occur. VW are honestly not as safe. Now, in terms of performance, I guess I can accept certain VW running all over certain Civics(not Hondas overall). Like I said, Ivé been in 2 or 3, yet the people driving them were not exactly heavy-foot drivers, so maybe my perception was wrong. But I do find it hard to believe that this VW performed better than your 97 GSR. Now those are some strong cars! I drove my friends 96 GSR( stock) and we certainly took off! I also think that you compared a higher model VW to a stock Civic HB. I realize I'm not a bullet in my HB. It's certainly fast, but it's actually one of Hondas slower cars. It performs well in races due to it's ability to be upgraded so well and for it's weight. So maybe I should step back and realize that there are some extremely fast VW that perform well. But like I said, I still believe that overall, The Honda is far better than the VW. Far more practical. Better Milaege, safer, and very durable! I would definately drive a Civic over a VW .

sentra20ser · January 2001

What the heck is a EX hatchback? (Honda never made one in the US.) And the reason you won't be driving a VW is because you can't afford one.

VW Golf vs Honda Civic

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