Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
What is your experience with 2000-2001 Golf tdi's vs Honda Civic's ? (Civic Si's, or Civic EX/GX since they, unfortunately, quit making the hatchback) Civic's get much better consumer ratings.
I want an economical, no maintenance hassels, car. I'm considering a Golf tdi for conversion to vegi-oil. Apparently it costs about $ 850 for a 2 tank kit, plus installation and oil access. I'd pay that off very soon in saved gasoline, but 'm not comfortable reading about all the Golf tdi electrical, etc., problems.
Am I better off buying a Civic Si, or Civic EX/GX and waiting for alternative fuel options to improve? (Will the Ford Focus ZX hold up at 200,000 miles? Many say no.) Getting an old '84 Mercedes 300 Turbodiesel suggests the mileage and wear and tear on that old dear would also be a maintenance headache.
Prius, Insight and Honda hybrid's are too expensive just now. Especially with the $5000 battery replacement down the road. The first Prius also may have challenges on windy mountain roads and high wind bridges like we have here in the San Francisco Bay area.
Tell us your experience!
I'm sure many people would be interested.
The tires are still good for another year. No engine timing belts to replace since this motor has a timing chain. No valve adjustments have been necessary.
The car was purchased for aprox. US$ 11000.
The only repair was the horn (got some water in it and rusted). Got a new one for $ 12 and installed it myself.
Would I buy the car again? You bet! There is no cheaper more reliable alternative out there in my opinion.
The only cheaper option would be a little used Corolla, Civic or Protege.
I am looking forward to the next problem-free 200k miles (at least).
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with a few words about your experience and your daytime contact info by Monday, November 1, 2004.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
But if we are talking about inexpensive transportation, the Echo is tough to beat. My average MPG over the last almost 4 years is 41.9 and YES, that US gallons.
You could, if you have nothing better do to, test drive both the Golf TDI and the Civic. Neither one of those is as quiet as the Echo. Neither one can touch the Echo when it comes to trunk space. Last week I picked up some friend from the airport and they had 4 big pieces of luggage and it all fit in the trunk with no problems. We were very close to overloading the car with four large people and their belongings, but that is a different story.
The biggest shortcoming of this car is the seats that are not fir for long distance traveling. I fixed this by installing two Recaro seats and now it is a pleasure to drive.
And when it comes to the geek factor, wow, unbelievable. There is no uglier car on the road but over time I have come to appreciate this car for waht it is, an extermely echonomical and reliable appliance used for personal transportation. For real fun I commute to work with my motorcycle, once a week.
The Golf fells very sturdy on the highway and its fun to drive. I've never driven an automatic VW but I dont really see the point.
Did you compare the 99 Civic hatchback to 99 VW golf or civic sedan/coupe? Coupe has the least headroom of the civic line. I do have to agree that VW's and Honda's are best suited for long legged drivers. I had both, but keep coming back to the Honda after a very unpleasant and costly experience with a VW in the past. But, thanks to that VW, I learnt how to fix cars, because it was literally eating me out of the house with numerous repairs after the warranty expired.
I've been lucky with the golf and find it feels a little more solid on the road. We spend 4 months a year driving in snow and ice.
If they bring the new Jazz, as mentioned in another thread. I was under impression that the Stream was coming to US.
i work for VW and if u want quality go for a civic
if u want dependability and performance go for a civic.
VW this year improved on there base model Jetta and GTI because of there new R32, it was suppose to be the VW's S2000.
sales picked up a year and a half after the release but back to what i was saying hp for a honda doesn't go head to head with a VW: 1. u have to think about weight if u are a big gear buff u would know HPq=(0.00426xMPH)3xWeight.
in order for a car to go 110mph in a 1/4mile the car has to be less that 3200pounds and have 329 hp's so think about the weight and the hp's for each car, 2.wheel diameter theres a lot of factors that play a role.
i say this much if u are into mod's then u might have an advantage(yes i said might)u have to understand what helps what and play with it when i went to school for nascar i didnt understand when they said the term stock car....lol
just think of this my civic has taking on a porsche boxter and is300 and won...... lol
but not to say its a regular civic..... lol
If everyone at VW spells/talks like you, it would explain the quality issues!
Change the word "quality" to "reliability", then you will have a stronger argument... The build quality is not in question - it's the reliability (primarily of VW's suppliers) that should be in question...
The Civic is more reliable, but the VWs do have better build quality. The two don't necessarily go together. I define "build quality" as not having an ugly visible weld joint as is the case on the Civic's interior door where the window frame meets the body of the door close to the side mirror. That same joint on the Golf is smooth and attractive. It's these minor differences that make VWs seem first class and Hondas seem third world (although more reliable).
In Kanos techings in quality there is a paragraph about expectations and delight. Customer expects a car to start every morning, having all the bells and whistles is just a delight factor. Those bells and whistles are useless if the car does not perform its primary function, e.g. starting and driving.
But Honda isn't known for any engine technology at all. Nooooo. Not recnetly. Hybrids, specific output in NA engines etc. in cars you can actually afford. Not $40k Passats.
Civic is also a best pic in the safety area with airbags all around standard. Wait what was the point. And the best part is a reputation for not needing the service center in the first place.
The 1.8T engine's peak torque starts at 1950 rpm and stays there until 5000 rpm. To get low end torque out of a turbocharged engine is what I would definitely call advanced.
And the upcoming 2.0T engine with its direct injection and 10.3:1 compression ratio has basically eliminated the dreaded turbo lag. And also, VW has been making the TDI engine (Turborcharged Direct Injection) for several years. So in a way, they are advanced.
Hondas engines are advanced as well (especially with its VVT technology), you just have to wind the engine up to the 3000 - 4000 rpm range to reach its peak torque (a byproduct of its racing technology). And their hybrid technology is advanced as well - although the jury is still out on how they hold up during a long term of ownership - 150,000+ miles. The gas engine of the hybrid equation will make and exceed that mileage interval very easily. The question mark will be how long the electric motor/battery portion will last.
To sum it up:
Golf - More durable, but not as reliable as the Honda
Honda - More reliable, but not as durable as the Golf.
Different strokes for different folks...
aside from minor repairs: tune ups, oil change, torn CV boots, etc. they have been wonderful and CHEAP to maintain!
The issue with VW is the cost of maintenence is higher, sometimes alot! axles for my 92 civic? 46.00 each, complete! oil change? 9.95! etc...
The VW has 'imagined' reliability. not sure why everyone loves them so...and everyone just keeps saying how much they fix them!
I sell cars, Honda's last 2 years, now I manage our Nissan store...and the trade value is horrendous in a VW! you generally pay more, and get much less in the long run.
It's amazing how much more they do cost new to purchase than a Honda. And they really arent' that good (as far as reliablity goes)
my 2 cents....
--
Bill
Sure some may have rust on the rear wheel wells, most cars being used as a primary vehicle throughout it's entire life tends to. But, the interior remains durable. Plastic doesn't peel, seats don't wear out, door handles don't break off, etc etc. While YMMV, I don't think durability is a civic issue just like it's reliability rating.
"As evidence I would point to the enormous number of 15 or even 20 year old civics I see on my way to work being used as commuter cars (not just a college/ high school kid that may drive 100 miles per week). "
You're kidding, right? If you're not, I'll throw in my anecdotal observations as well. I live in a large metropolitan area and I rarely see older civics on the roads - and the ones that are...are rusted out - and not in harmless areas, ie, the lower part of hatch on a hatchback that allows toxic gasses into the cabin. No thanks.
But VW placing in the bottom of nearly any longevity study speaks more volumes than any anecdotal story anyone can conjure. And the fact that the VW loses value like a sieve would also spell doom for longevity since any major repair to a aged VW could easily end up costing more than the car is worth. The only place that situation leads is to the auto crusher.
I don't know what area you live in, but on both coasts (East Coast and West Coast), there is an abundance of old VWs, Hondas, etc... So I guess the car crusher is pretty hungry at the moment...
When you consider VW had 8 model lines in 1990 and Honda only had 4, the difference is even more obvious. The Fox, Corrado, and even the popular Cabriolet are noexistent on the roads these days. Whereas Civics, Accord, and even Preludes from that era are pretty commonplace. At least around here.
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/retained_value/RetainedValue.jsp?make=Volkswag- en&model=Passat
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/retained_value/RetainedValue.jsp?make=Honda&mo- del=Accord+Sedan
They sold a lot of Foxes though. And they were cheap. And they are now nearly extinct. The 87 bodystyle Civic went out of production in 1991 and they are still everywhere. I know they sold a lot of them but they also sold a lot of Ford Tauruses back then and they are nearly gone too. Reliable cheap to run cars stay on the road longer. A durable body does you no good if you can't keep the engine running.
Civics are numerous in your area because they don't salt the roads (during the winter) as heavily as the Northeast/Mid Atlantic (where I live) or Midwest. Plus, the frequency of certain automobiles are lower in your area because of population - The Northeast/MidAtlantic region (extending from Boston to Richmond, VA) has a higher population density than the Southeast - therefore, the more people there are, the more drivers there are, and a higher frequency of a given automobile model is seen on the roads.
No matter what side of the issue you're on - it's been a good discussion all the way around :shades:
I'm actually kind of curious to see cars of my vintage ('98) will hold up body-wise over time as I'm sure they've improved rust tolerance over time.
Now as far as the other off the wall stuff (coil cracking issues, window regulator issues, and mass airflow sensor) - those I'm familiar with - That's why they're handled via Technical Service Bulletins. My 1987 Golf GT only stranded me once due to an electrically-related issue - the fuel pump that went out at the 375,000 mile mark... Preventative maintenance took care of the rest - over the years I've developed a knack for troubleshooting the wearable components in my car (starter, altenator, voltage regulator, etc.) to make sure they're not at the end of their service life. Those components that are nearing their end, I replace. That instinct has kept me out of trouble during my 20+ years of car ownership.
http://autoextremist.com/page2.shtml
Things may not be as happy in Honda-land as they may seem.
VW isn't the only manufacturer having problems...
http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/81036.htm
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2004/07/23/ap1467132.html
as opposed to
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a.M8UZJYEuo8&refer=top_world_news
Which company would you rather buy a car from?
Click on this link and read Item #10. So in the long run VW is in good hands. As much as you seem to want them to go away, any news of their demise is greatly exaggerated... :shades:
http://autoextremist.com/page2.shtml
I couldn't care less if they stayed or left by the way. They are a non-issue to me.
VW was nice enough to send me a $50 voucher for a test drive of the new Jetta though. Hope they stay in business long enough to pay up.
On the reverse side you have the EXTREMELY successful Honda and Toyota. Heck..you even have Toyota considering increasing their prices on US cars just to help out the floundering US makes (read GM). Why are Honda and Toyota successful......QUALITY Product!!!!
I have my fingers crossed for VW!!! :confuse: