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Comments
You are correct in concluding that you have a U.S. model. But the news that it is an XFI is a surprise. I don't doubt that, but it complicates the situation. XFIs were relatively rare. They were designed to give the highest possible fuel economy. To achieve that, the engine was designed with one less piston ring than the standard engine (for lower friction) and the camshaft had a shorter duration and lower lift. This moved the power curve down to a lower RPM, but it also made less peak power than the standard engine. Those differences were small enough that it wouldn't be a bother to most drivers; but they did require the computer to be calibrated differently. The throttle body also had slightly different (leaner) calibrations, and the spark advance curve was different.
So, once you get it running; a standard engine with XFI tuning will not run quite like it was intended to. I have an XFI throttle body on my standard Metro, and it has taken a bit of work to get the mixture where it belongs, and to keep the check engine light from protesting. But I now prefer the way it runs.
If you get it running, and there is a problem with the computer, the check engine light will come on and stay on. That light is supposed to briefly light when you first turn the key, but it should go out when the engine starts. If there is a computer problem, the computer will generate a trouble code, which will cause the check engine light to flash a coded sequence when the key is turned on (before cranking the starter). The sequence can be read and then the explanation can be looked up in a chart. This information is in the service manual. If the engine runs, and the check engine light stays off, then the computer is OK (assuming the check engine light comes on momentarily when the key is first turned on).
Parts stores are not equipped to test computers. Dealerships can, but they charge a lot to do so, and sometimes the results are misleading. I've seen trouble codes which said one thing, when the problem was something else. Not for the faint hearted, or those who are short of money. In that kind of work, it would be preferable to work with a dealership who was liberal and customer friendly about adjusting their charges to keep things fair; rather than one which charged for everything they did, whether it worked or not.
But don't forget the ignition pick up unit. If it is bad, you definitely will not get a spark.
Also, it is not a good idea to use an ohmmeter to test fuses. I've seen too many misleading results. A self powered continuity test light is a much more appropriate tool for that purpose. Connecting a 12 volt light bulb in series with the fuse and the vehicle battery will also work comparably; providing the bulb does not draw more current than the rating of the fuse (a bulb with a rating of between 5watts and 25 watts is preferable). And that same light bulb is the absolute best tool for checking the fuse box to see if each of the fuse sockets can supply enough current to light the bulb; when the other end of the bulb filament is grounded.
Joel
Dan
All Geo Metro engines had throttle body fuel injection. Metros were never made with carburetors. The 3 cylinder Chevy Sprint, which was the preceding model to the Geo Metro, and was also designed and produced by Suzuki (although GM sold them in the U.S. under the Chevy and Geo name) had a carburetor, except fuel injection was used on the turbo model, and on the standard engine in 1988, the last year of its model run. Anyway, my point is that the throttle body looks sort of like a carburetor, which leads many people to mistake it for one. So I believe the engine you bought may have been mislabeled as "carbureted."
I don't believe they made XFIs with automatics, although I'm not absolutely sure. The automatic transmission equipped standard Metros got about TEN miles per gallon less than the manuals. That was the worst possible combination on that car.
XFIs usually had all black rear bumpers, while standards and LSIs had a strip on the top edge of the bumper which was white. XFIs also had a decal reading "XFI" above the right tail light.
But now I need to know: Does your car have an automatic transmission???
Joel
I wanted to mention that there is another option to sort out this problem. There is a brand of repair manual called Mitchell, which is used by shops which specialize in fuel injection and electrical work. They publish a huge, thick, book each model year, which covers each individual brand of car in complete detail. This is the Mother Lode of diagnostic information. For example, I was working on a 1993 Acura Integra the other day, which also had a 'no spark' condition that could not be fixed by replacing the usual components. So I drove to the Mountain View, CA public library, which has in their reference section a full set of Mitchell manuals for every recent model year. I looked through the 1993 Acura Integra information, and ended up photocopying 75 pages of wiring diagrams, logic trees, computer trouble codes, and self diagnostic procedures. Included in that information was the Acura part number of a factory diagnostic tool called a 'break-out box.' This part is normally found only at dealerships, but can be ordered through the dealership parts department, by using the part number listed in the Mitchell manual. It is a special electrical adapter, which plugs in to the computer, and to the wiring harness plug which normally goes into the computer. It has several rows of numbered terminals, perhaps 60 pins in all, to which you can connect a digital voltmeter and read the voltage on each individual wire in the vehicle harness. This custom made tool makes it possible to troubleshoot the entire wiring harness, without cutting into it. AND IT COST ONLY ABOUT $8 FROM THE DEALERSHIP. This is what it takes to sort out a 'no spark' problem when the fault is not in the usual components.
So if you have access to a digital voltmeter, and are willing to put the time into it, this is the way to save the massive labor charges which you'd have to pay at a dealership or specialist shop, to fix this problem. Of course, you might be able to fix it by replacing every major part in the ignition system, but since there has been lots of corrosion in the wiring harness, I think there is a substantial chance that the problem is NOT a defective component, but is instead a fault in the wiring. But, without being to 'see' the overall condition of the electrical system; you would just be playing Russian Roulette.
Very few libraries have a full set of Mitchell Manuals, but some can order them, or can tell you where they can be found. It might also be possible that a friendly local electrical and fuel injection shop will let you copy pages from a Mitchell Manual that they have. Or you might be able to buy one online. I don't know whether there is a break-out box available for Geo Metros, but I do know that the information you need to fix this problem is in that manual. And if you do take it on; the experience and confidence you thereby gain will benefit you for the rest of your life.
Joel
Yes, that is another option that I may have to pursue. To answer your question, yes, I do have an automatic trans. It also has all black bumpers but, no XFI badges to speak of. The car was wrecked then repainted so, that may be why. The only reason I think I have an XFI is because on Rock Auto's website they have a picture of an XFI ignition control module or "ignitor" and it looks just like mine with the #'s J121 on it. The standard module doesn't look like mine. I think I'll take my vin # to the dealership and see what they can come up with as far as what model I have. A few posts ago you mentioned seeing if I have spark coming from the coil. How do I do that? I know the obvious way is to hold the coil wire close to a ground and crank the engine but, I don't want to fry any other electrical parts! So, if there is another way I'd like to know. Thanks again!
Dan
The all black bumper, plus the ignition control module pretty clearly cinch the issue that it is an XFI. I don't think any further investigation is needed there. So they did make XFIs with automatics!! The reason I asked about the transmission type is that the throttle position switch is different on 5 speed cars than on automatics.
A safe method of checking the spark at the coil would be to borrow one of the plug wires from the distributor, along with a clean spark plug. Attach the plug wire directly to the coil, and plug the other end of the wire onto a spark plug. Clamp the metal body of the spark plug so that it is held firmly against a grounded metal object. Turn on the key and crank the engine, while watching the plug electrodes. If the coil is producing a spark, you'll see it jump across the plug gap.
Joel
------------------------------------------------Firewall------------------------- - - ------
plug
no wire> X O O
O-O O
/\
jump these two terminals
I hope that's clear.
Steve B.
My exhaust pipe is fluffy black with a black ring around the outside.
Looking for at least 50 mpg,
Steve B.
two rings per cylinder, special economy cam, no passenger mirror, no air conditioning unless installed by dealer, a low final drive albeit higher than the 4 cyl sohc.
A little less hp BUT sooo economical.
You can still get that FE by dropping in a XFi cam and swapping your final drive gear and pinion. I did it and don't regret it one bit. Augment tire pressure also. Advance timing (at the distributor level) by at least 6 degrees, it should get rid of soot.
I wish you success. Check metrompg.com
My new metro runs great and starts fine after it warms up. But on a cold start, it won't or has trouble turning over, the timing belt squeals on rev and it putters out and dies on idle and when engaging 1st gear. Any thoughts on where I might start to fix this/these problems?
Also, anyone have thoughts on the original service manual versus the Chilton Paper Repair Manual as to which one is better?
Thanks!
Mljwire here; (Les)
I have done your suggested testing on the rough idle and loss of gas mileage on my 95 Geo. I am not sure about the issues I found with the TPS and I now believe the rough idle is actual slow idle as described in the idle air valve check.
1995 Geo Metro
1.0
Manual 5 speed
A/C
VIN# 2C1MR2267S6785502
Manufactured in Canada.
6/94
Complies to US.
Throttle Body 13400 50G11
197930-0421
1. Throttle position sensor. (Denso 13420-50G00, 198500 3090) It is adjustable. When checking I do not see the switching terminals as you mentioned and as the diagram and set up procedure shows in the Haynes Repair Manual for 1985 to 2001. I marked the TPS position and removed it and rechecked it by rotating the coupling fully CW & CCW. I do not see the switch. I do see the resistor and the wiper. The feller gauge between the stop-screw could not be set. I went to Advanced Auto and compared a new TPS of the same manufacture and part# and it tested exactly the same. I have included the resistance readings of the TPS. Please let me know if I am doing something wrong.
Pins CCW CW
1-2 Inf. Inf.
1-3 .004ohm 3.31ohm
1-4 3.65ohm 3.65ohm
2-3 Inf. Inf.
2-4 Iinf. Inf.
3-4 3.67ohm .49ohm
2. Spark Plugs. New in 2007. I started with Champion RN12YC. I checked the Champion website and confirms the correct application. The plugs are nice and tan, no carbon or oil and gap measured good. I changed them to Autolite AP63 and set the gap to .041”.
3. Cap and Rotor. New in 2007. I inspected the cap and rotor and found no carbon tracking. I cleaned the slight oxidation on the conductor pins in the cap. The leading edge of the rotor looks like new. I noticed what looks to be hairline cracks in the top of the cap plastic at the point where the three conductor pins mount. The cracks migrating toward the rotor contactor. I was going to replace it but when I inspected the cap from Advanced Auto I noticed the exact same condition. I plan to get a different brand.
4. MAP Sensor. I checked the electrical connections for corrosion and did not see any. I checked the electrical connector for bad wires/connections, ok. I replaced the vacuum line to the TB and checked the conection spigot, ok. I checked the voltage of the MAP sensor and from the
OBK to GBK wires
The voltage measured 3.66v with the key on and not running.
@ Idle 2.13v
Reeve engine 1.6v
5. Idle Air control Valve. The Haynes manual say the idle air control valve is pre 94 models. I have a 95 which has idle speed control motor I tested the motor by placing 6v on the ISC motor terminals and the motor extended and retracted. I do not see the ISC motor on the wiring diagram. I found an idle up from the A/C control amplifier on the heating and A/C diagram but I have not located the module yet. There is also a 15a IG fuse that I also did not locate. I checked all the 15a fuses under the dash, they are ok. Under the passenger side dash there are two boxes a metal case which I believe is the ECM and a black plastic box, is this the PCM?
I believe this could be a good possibility because I noticed that the idle speed does not change when I turn the A/C on and off or when I step on the brake. At this point I believe that my rough idle may actual be low RPM. I tried to do a check of the RPM but it is rudimentary at best as I used my old tach/dwell meter set on 4cyl and calculating about ¾ of the value which I am sure is inaccurate but I was hoping it would be close.
RPM (0.75 of actual reading on 4cyl tach)
Cold 600rpm
Hot 350rpm sounds extremely slow and it looks slow.
6. Dirty Fuel. Changed fuel filter annually. Changed it again. The rough idle seems to have started a 1 ½ years ago progressively getting worse. I have used the Techroline cleaner.
7. EGR Valve. I removed and cleaned the EGR valve again. It was still pretty clean. I checked all diaphragms and vacuum lines for leaks and operation. Last time I went through and did all of the operational checks in the manual. This time I confirmed that the diaphragm was moving when revving the engine.
8. Timing. I have owned this car since 3K miles and have never adjusted the timing. The timing is specified under the hood as 5deg at idle.850rpm. I checked it by jumping the test terminal as specified and it is at 5deg BTDC at idle although the manual says to check it at various RPM I do not have the correct tach so this check is also rudimentary but at idle it is correct.
9. PVC valve. Replaced.
I also;
Changed the air cleaner.
Checked and repaired all vacuum lines.
Replaced Timing belt.
Sorry about the length. I want you to have details. I am thinking I need to figure out this idle speed control motor control circuit because that is supposed to increase the idle with the A/C on and I believe it used to increase when the brake was depressed. The idle does not increase for any conditions that I see.
Thanks for all the detail. It was very helpful. But I'll be brief here, for simplicity's sake.
1> It sounds like either TPS pins 1-3, or 3-4 are the ones that switch. I'd use whichever pair's reading changes abruptly between the low and high figures when the throttle is opened a little above idle, with the housing set about midway in its travel. Then lock the housing in the position where the switching takes place when the throttle linkage opens .018" from fully closed throttle.
2> I'd stay with the Autolite plugs, as you have them set, and would definitely search around for a distributor cap without manufacturing cracks (try a NAPA parts store).
3> It sounds like the idle air control circuit is not working. I suppose it may just require more extreme conditions to activate it; but I expect it is inoperative. I can't help you with the repair procedure, but there should be an explanation in a 1995 Mitchell electrical systems manual (a huge, thick book that covers all brands of cars). The trick is to find one. Local library reference desk would be a start. A good fuel injection repair specialist will probably also have one, but may or may not cooperate with your need for information.
4> I wouldn't try this until all of the above items are resolved, (PARTICULARLY THE IDLE SPEED CONTROL MECHANISM) but sometimes the idle air bypass screw in the throttle body has to be reset. This cross head brass screw is hidden inside a boss, on the driver's side of the throttle body, near the rear edge of the casting, perhaps halfway up between the throttle body mounting flange and the air filter housing. There is a black rubber plug covering the screw when they are new. Turning the screw in (clockwise) enriches the mixture, and usually slows down the idle. Loosening the screw leans the mixture and speeds up the idle. There will be a range of adjustment over which the idle quality is pretty good, and there should be a sharp peak of smoothness within that range. But the throttle position must be set right before you can find that spot, and that means either fixing the idle speed control, or resetting the throttle stop to a further open position.
5> I assume you've checked the compression pressure. It should be very close to 195psi (which is a lot more than it is on most cars). Anything less than 180 fails.
Everything else you mentioned sounds good.
Best Wishes,
Joel
Les
Engine will fire one time each time the key is cycled. Will do it as long as I want to keep trying. If you continue to hold the key in the start position after it has fired it will not fire again until key is recyled. I have checked wiring harness plugs in the engine compartment. Checked crank sensor,installed known good distributor, coil, ignitor,computor. Engine was changed in this car by previous owner. I bought it not running. What am I missing?
The engine is cranking over normally. It fires the number three cyl one time only each time the ign key is cycled from off to start/run. Also this is a 1.0 3 cyl. 5 speed. The timing belt has been checked and it is timed correctly.
Ignition fuse 20 A? not likely
Ignition switch? more likely
imho of course...
Steve B.
1> Cracks or carbon tracking in distributor cap or rotor. (Try checking for spark directly from coil, instead of from distributor cap)
2> Firing order of plug wires in cap incorrect.
3> Misaligned or defective ignition pick up unit or air gap between reluctor and pick up not set correctly.
4> Computer or igniter intended for car with automatic transmission, or for wrong year model.
I marked the original position, and backed it up a little bit. I drove it a couple of miles to see how it acted. At first, the idle speed was quite high, but it corrected itself after a mile or so. After repeating the above procedure two times, I tried it all the way counterclockwise just to see what it would do. After the engine heated up to normal, the idle went into a hunting mode, speeding up and returning to normal. I then readjusted it clockwise just slightly to the point where the hunting ceased. I now have a peppy car with a CLEAN exhaust pipe! Thanks to everyone for suggestions, especially to Joel (zaken1)
Steve B.
A weak spark could also prevent it from starting. If your battery is old, or run down, that alone could cause this problem. You might try hooking up a good set of jumper cables from another vehicle, and then running the engine in that vehicle for 5 to 10 minutes, and then leave it running while trying to start the Metro.
Metros used different parts in the ignition systems of cars that had 5 speeds; and those that had automatic transmissions. Some of those parts will not work well if they are mixed and used in the wrong type vehicle. Similarly, you can't substitute any other type of coil for the stock unit. In order for it to work properly, it must be a coil intended for that year and model car.
And the spark plugs on Metros can easily foul, if the car is attempted to be started too many times. Try removing the plugs and seeing if the center porcelain has become wet with gasoline, or black with carbon. The plugs must all be clean and dry, be of the proper heat range, and the gap should be set to .041".
It also might be that when the plug wires were installed in the new cap, the firing order was accidentally changed. That would do it... And if the distributor has been removed and replaced, then the ignition timing may have changed. Just to be safe, I would position the distributor so that the mounting bolts are in the center of their slots. If you've already done that, then try turning the distributor more clockwise from that center position; and be sure the mounting bolts are securely tightened before trying to start the motor.
I hope this helps,
Joel
If anyone has used this product, I'd very much appreciate your input.
Thanks, Joel
So thanks for the "heads up!!!"
Joel
I envision the car sitting for 7 years and the the oil forming varnish or sludge and binding synchros up. Is that possible? If so, is it realistic to suppose that a solvent or additive could break this up, and if so, what would it be?
I was told by a mechanic they could be freed up by removing pan and moving them around by hand, but am hoping to avoid this, also wondering if anyone has tried this.
Also, have a used trans but know nothing of its history. Is there a way to check its functions before I go to the trouble of installing it?
I think the synchro is just worn out.
I have bought a new part but haven't installed it.
Steve B.
I've found that the 5 speed transmission in my Metro is extremely sensitive to the type of lubricant I use in it. Metros have a special situation in that respect, because the transmission and the differential share the same lubricant. But most differential oil contains extreme pressure friction reducing additives, which if used in the Metro transaxle, will interfere with the operation of the synchros. Red Line makes a synthetic gear oil which does not have those friction modifiers in it. I used it for many years, but found it still did not shift smoothly when the transmission was cold. I eventually found that a special purpose lubricant called Golden Spectro 75W-90; GL-5 full synthetic gear oil, worked better than anything else I've ever seen. It can be found at many motorcycle shops. And I add about 3 ounces of Tufoil additive to it, when I fill the transaxle. That further improved the shifting, and also quieted the transmission.
Incidentally, Suzuki also recognizes the synchro problem. Their recommendation, in the Metro owner's manual, is to briefly pause in neutral during each shift. I do that, and find it helps a lot; but many of today's drivers are not happy when they are behind someone who shifts like that.
Joel
Joel
I removed the seats, carpet, side panels and pressure washed everything.
I let it all dry a couple of days.
Next, I used spray glue and put down 2 layers of a closed cell foam carpet pad which I got for free from the local carpet store's dumpster. They were glad to give it to me.
After that, I installed the pressure washed original carpets and seats.
The car's not as quiet as our Chrysler 300M, but it's a lot quieter than before and easy to carry on a conversation at 50 mph.
The additional weight is probably only about 30 lbs, and I think, worth every bit.
Sorry for the rambling post,
Steve B.
I hope this helps,
Joel
Incidentally, while it might be good insurance to keep the old belt around in case something unexpected happens; I definitely wouldn't re-use the old belt as anything other than an emergency band aid. A new belt can reliably be used for 90,000-110,000 miles, but at that mileage, even though it looks great; it has endured enough thermal and mechanical stress that it is unsafe to depend on it further.
Joel