SPORT SUSPENSION ON GOLF GTI

quint3 · July 2000

Yes, the 1.8t models come with SLIGHTLY more damping than the base golfs but the SPORTS suspension that was promised (possibly in tandem with a 17" wheel option) is not to be.

Plus, whatever damping the car does have is pretty much rendered useless by the 65-series tires. Still, it seems like an excellent platform to build on.

alfaromeo · July 2000

Check out the vortex pages, you'll have all the answers there...

quint3 · July 2000

What is the vortex site?

alfaromeo · July 2000

http://vwvortex.com/

It was updated today.

quint3 · July 2000

Wow, terrific site! I just read in the new SCI about the sport pkg. deletion, but the available lineup at Vortex looks tasty indeed. So who's correct?

alfaromeo · July 2000

Ok... now it's my turn... what's 'THE NEW SCI???'

It seems vortex knows their stuff. Also, I believe that the new GTIs are simply closer to the Euro specs than the 2000 predecessor. I read somewhere that they had 'softened' the suspension previously for the american market. My new GTI feels very much the same as the ones I drove back in Europe.
Again, it's not a 'racing suspension'... but my new car seems to handle the corners perfectly (I'm not pushing it, I got it yesterday!)

alfaromeo · July 2000

Maybe what you've read simply means that there is no 'option' on the GTIs, because they've made it standard. I guess it's the only possible explanation.

quint3 · July 2000

Not pushing it, it's new? It's not like you need to break-in a suspension! Just joking. SCI is Sports Car International, the August/September issue. And I would have to believe that any meaningful factory suspension upgrade would necessitate a change up from the 65-series rubber.

quint3 · July 2000

According to the latest AutoWeek, there will not be a Sports suspension on the GTIs. However, if you order the new FIVE door GTI 1.8t (or Jetta 1.8t) you can at least opt for a 17" wheel/tire package.Odd.

alfaromeo · July 2000

Hey... I don't know. My car has it, and it clearly says so on the window sticker. The Vortex forum (which seems to be well informed) says so.
But I guess it all depends what one calls 'sport suspension'...
As far as the 17'' tires... That's a bit 'much' for me and my driving requirements, but something in between would be nice.
If you REALLY race and need all the fancy sport mods, you'd have to resort to the aftermarket anyway. I don't care much for mods. I don't race!

only1harry · July 2000

tires, tires!! Tires play a big role in handling. Get a good set of VR or ZR rated tires. Does the GTI 1.8T really come with 65 series rubber? Get 50 or 55 series but make sure you keep the tire diameter about the same otherwise your speedometer will be off. Although tires won't reduce body roll, they 'll help in taking turns faster or cornering faster. Neuspeed softsprings and sports springs are fairly inexpensive. Also get a Neuspeed rear sway bar and you guys are all set. You can keep your stock shocks (Koni adustable shocks are big bucks) if you go with the Neuspeed softsprings (lower the car about .75"). Sounds like the new sports suspension is more than adequate for street use on the 2001 GTI models. I wouldn't change anything unless you intend to autocross race.
This is just some advice for those thinking of upgrading the suspension. I 'm not referring to anyone in particular. Also, stiffer springs will make the ride stiffer too and you 'll feel every bump on the road. The stiffer the springs, the less comfortable the ride will be. I 'd recommend a bigger rear sway bar (anti-roll bar) to those concerned with keep the ride pretty stock. A bigger sway bar also reduces body roll dramatically on FWD cars, eliminates most of the understeer and in some cases (depeding how wide or stiff the rear sway bar is), it produces oversteer! My FWD now has oversteer. The reason they make the cars with understeer is because your average driver can't handle that much better than oversteer. Plus understeer gives you more warning before you lose control, understeer gives you less warning and to counter the oversteer effect you have to keep your foot on the gas. Most people let off the throttle which is the wrong thing to do, like in RWD cars that have inherent oversteer. Surprisinly keeping your foot on the gas prevents the tail from coming around.. Anyway I 'm going off on another tangent again. Just make sure you consult with others that have suspension upgrades before you start modding the car on your own. There are plus and minuses when modding and you should know what they are before making any purchases..

only1harry · July 2000

"The reason they make the cars with
understeer is because your average driver can't
handle that much better than oversteer."

I meant the average driver CAN handle understeer better than oversteer. Understeer is actually much safer for most people.

"understeer gives you less warning and to
counter the oversteer effect you have..."

I meant oversteer gives you less warning.. Ok, so I can't type :-)

sentra20ser · July 2000

I drove a 2000 GTI GLX (VR6) the other day and I would have to say that the car is very nice. It is extremely quiet and feels very solid. The motor pulls hard at any RPM and isn't phased by the use of AC. (in other words I loved it.) I still need to drive a GTI 1.8T to compare. The new 2001 GTI GLS 1.8T's have the same sport suspension as the GLX. It is not overally stiff and would be ok for autoxing. The big plus is that there is a $600 option for 17inch rims with 205/45ZR14 tires. Have you checked out the APR site? They offer a chip for the 1.8T that bumps the output of the motor to 196hp and 240lbs of torque. Now that is what I like to see. If all falls into place I'll have a loaded GTI GLS 1.8T in the spring and a maybe a chip by fall.

only1harry · July 2000

I can't believe those chip gains. That's phenomenal. I did hear from a guy who said his friend got about 30hp more on the dyno which is about 35-37hp at the flywheel. That's a lot! If I had a 1.8T I 'd definitely get that chip. I heard it's about $400. If that's true, that's nothing for 35-40hp and what 70,80+ torque? That's a bargain. I can see getting 40-45hp with an aftermarket exhaust and headers, which is probably what the advertised HP of 196 comes from..
It might be smart to wait and see if any of the people with the chip out there are having any problems first. Who makes the chip? I assume it replaces the stock ECU?

sentra20ser · July 2000

APR, Garrett, Neuspeed, Etc. I know I'm leaving somebody out. Between the GSR racer and the GTI street car I will have tons of fun. Race on only1harry!!!

only1harry · July 2000

I haven't raced in 2 weeks and I 'm going nuts! It's like running out of cigarettes and you don't have a car to go out and get some. I 'm having withdrawal symptoms

only1harry · July 2000

Did you see my response to your question about the SPRINGS in the VW Golf vs. Civic HB topic? from like 2 weeks ago?

sentra20ser · July 2000

I saw your reply. We decided to wait. We are not going to go with Race Springs and after calling Neuspeed the spring ratings you gave me are incorrect. They are rated the same as the H&R springs. So basically we will just run with what we got. It is not like we need it to win our class. We are trying to catch a guy in a 911 Turbo that is blazing fast. Do you have any recommendations to improve lowend power? We are thinking about getting 14x7 up front or underdrive pulley's. Do you have any comments on either? (I wish we had the money for a JRSC)

only1harry · July 2000

and beat the 911 is to install a JRSC. There 's 4 of you right? That's only $600 each. Believe me, you 'll be fighting between you who is going to drive the car next. You 'll get over 160ft-lbs of torque at the wheels! That's almost
200ft-lbs at the flywheel. Also 210hp at the wheels with just 6psi and a fuel pump. I 'm drewling just thinking about it. High 13's in the 1/4.. very tempting. Let me see, supercharger or divorce.. hmm.. I gotta think about that one

sentra20ser · July 2000

I would love to but I'm not sure if all 3 of use are ready to drop the cash on it. We are still working out the bugs on the GSR. Plus the guy in the 911 has a lot more wheel time under his belt. It would be fun though.

only1harry · August 2000

By the way my friend called up Neuspeed and they told him the spring rates for the Sports (2" drop) are 360 front and 300 rear, which what I told you in another post. They 're not the same as the H&R Sports. The Neuspeed Softsports are the same as the H&R Sports that I have. H&R Sports are 276F/220R. The 360F/300R combination is actually the best for auto-xing! A friend has them on his Type-R and his times are unbelievable. 3 sec. better than my GSR on the average! Of course I 'm on street tires and he 's on race tires but my brother 's R that is stock with race tires is usually 1.5sec. behind him. This guy beats cars in A and B class and most modified ones and he is in the top 5% of everyone there.
Anyway, I highly recommend the Neuspeed Sports and they 're also comfortable for every day use providing you soften up the Konis a little. BTW, I just ordered the Konis - darn expensive! Now I 'm ready to kick some butt

My friend's GSR 4dr that has the same mods as me plus the Konis, handles much nicer than mine. I can't wait to get them. He does really well in DSP and has won some trophies.

sentra20ser · August 2000

I'm so excited. I finished 2nd out of 60 cars on Sunday. I lost to the defending NCCC-Midwest Region Street Prepared champ. When I called Neuspeed they told me a different rating. I think we will race with what we got for know. I'm still not sure how to pickup that last 1.5 seconds. We hope to have the rollcage mounted before the next race. When are you going to race next?

only1harry · August 2000

I haven't raced in 3 weeks now and I can't take it. This weekend 2 events were cancelled due to some regional championships going on upstate NY in Rome, NY. Too far for me (and my friends).
We may be going down to Englishtown, NJ on Saturday but that a 2hr drive and don't know if the others will make it. I usually don't like going alone. Normally 6 of us go together all the time. 3 Type-Rs, 2 GSRs and 1 Prelude SH. I 'm looking forward to Englishtown because they 're also big on Drag Racing there. The only thing is, they charge you $10 to watch the drag races because the auto-x lot is isolated from that area and they treat you like a spectator even though you paid them $30 to auto-x in the adjacent lot..

They also have Import night there like every other weekend and you get to see all kinds of cars, some of them are 10sec Civics and 11 sec. Integras! If this falls through we 're definitely racing on the 13th with the BMW club (and lots of Porsches). We like to look at their faces when we beat their times

Congrats on 2nd place! 60 cars is a lot! you race in DSP class like me right? did they index you with all 60 people? (some SCCA clubs do that for cars on street tire) there wasn't 60 people just in DSP right? (I never have more than 10 cars in DSP but that's one too many for me - too much competition)

sentra20ser · August 2000

Yes, I race DSP. The only car in our class was our GSR. I finally finished first in it. The other guy has beat me the last 3 times out. So I was glad to beat him. The fastest time of the day was a 68.0 and I had a 69.4. My buddy got a 69.6. The next closest car was 71.3. So we got whipped by the guy in a gutted '85 Corvette, but we killed the rest of the field. The local Honda dealer owner was there. He brought out his S2000. It was the first time he had ever raced and he pulled out a respectable 75.0. That car is so sweet. If you slapped a set of race rubber on it I'm sure it would kill our GSR.

only1harry · August 2000

There are two S2000s in the 2 local clubs that I usually go to. One of them is the club's president. Now the other guy just put race tires on and you see the difference between the two. Almost 2 secs! Yeah, it was funny, this other guy (not the guy running the club) came to race back in April, it was his 1st time too. His times sucked. But he got better and learned the car and now with race tires he 's up there with the Type-Rs and even beats them. Sounds like your suspension setup is working out pretty good! What tires do you have on? Kumho V700?
What pressures do you run them on?

sentra20ser · August 2000

We run between 32-30 on front and 28-26 on back. It might sound a little low, but I like to run it as low as possible on back to keep the backend from getting squirmmy. And Yes I run Kuhmo V700's.

I had a chance to drive a '00 VW GTI GLS this weekend. It is a very nice car. The interior feels very rich (with Leather). I thought it handled fine for a street car. I think it handled better then my '94 GSR Sedan. I'm sure the new suspension and better tires will help. The model I drove had 195/65VR15 allseason tires. The tires are so tall it makes me want to put whitewalls on it. The '01's have a $600 option for 17's with 225/45ZR-17 Michelin Pilot Sports. I can't wait for spring. I'm planning on ordering a '01 Reflex Silver GTI GLS with every option(monsoon sound system, leather package, and wheel package) and Black Leather interior. Check out a picture below.

http://vwvortex.com/news/index_2001VW.html

only1harry · August 2000

doesn't work.. Is the GTI GLS still the 115hp one? I 'd get the GTI GLS 1.8T. Need power!
17" wheels with ZR tires? Now not too many companies offer this kind of package on a car under $20K. VW is thinking of the enthousiats, way to go VW. Now if we can get Honda to stop putting 14 & 15" wheels with dinky tires on their cars..

alfaromeo · August 2000

Hi there... it seems you are online right now and I have been curious about this for some time: people seem to buy the GS-R / GTI type of car and then mod them to obtain higher performance. Why is it that you don't opt for a car such as the Camaro? As a European, it's not a car I know very well, but it seems that it provides a lot of 'bang for the buck' - and a much larger engine than the Acuras or VWs can offer.
Care to enlighten me???
thanks!

sentra20ser · August 2000

The '00 model year offered the GLS with the 2.0l 115hp motor in the first half and then switched to the 1.8T in the second half. In '01 there will be no 2.0 GTI.

Enlighten me.
The Camaro has a bad rap. It is a poorman's Corvette. I love the V8, but would not trade functional pocket rocket for a single function sports car. I have considered a Mustang GT, but I really like pocket rockets and need FWD for MN winters.

alfaromeo · August 2000

Fair enough. That's how I see it too. I just wasn't sure about the 'local trend'!
It's just that whenever the 1.8t is discussed, 3 out of 4 mention all the engine mods they want to buy. At the end of the day, it's not just a matter of buying a USD 500 chip... I suppose if you really want to get race performance from a 1.8t, you'd have to rake out at least 3000 USD and strip the car of excess weight (I am just guessing - have never contemplated doing it myself). Personnally, I'm more of a 'buy and forget' kind'a driver. The day I want to have a 'kick-[non-permissible content removed]' car, I suppose I'd go buy one of 'em vettes, or Porsches or whatever. But of course, functionality WILL be an issue!

thegtiman1 · August 2000

Here in the states the camaro is a long lived car. It sure does have a big engine (350cu.in. to a 302cu.in.) for the size the ammount of hp is very same for the displacement. You also have to realize power to weight ratios, gas milage, handling and so on. A cast iron block v-8 is heavy and a pushrod valve train is old Technology. A castiron v-8 up in the front of the vehicle is not always a good thing. Look at all the messages posted about the handling differences of the bigger heavier VR6 compared to the lighter 1.8t. A small light car can handle a corner alot better then a front heavy vehicle with a high curb weight.
I used to have a 1971 Pontiac T-37 muscle car and it sucked down gas and had no handling abilities AT ALL (very fun though). I got my first GTI 16V a couple months ago and loved it to death. Sold that car and now I am getting the 1.8t GTI because of the handling abilities. I got into the thought process a long time ago that bigger is not better and gas is freakn expensive......

sentra20ser · August 2000

MPG on a Z28 are 19-city and 28-highway. Also the car can pull .86 on the skidpad. Not bad for either of those. The thing that most people don't realize is that it is harder to drive a Z28 fast then it is to drive a GTI/GSR fast. A FWD car is much more forgiving.

alfaromeo · August 2000

But what if you DO want to race in your time off? Isn't a Z28 a much better (i.e. faster) car?

only1harry · August 2000

I can't believe you asked that question. What's a Camaro have to do with a higher technological machine like a GSR? Not much. The Camaro is gas guzzler straight line performance (with ok handling, really, they 're not that bad and they can be modded too, some kick butt at autocross with some suspension work) questionable reliability car. The GSR is much better on gas mileage, handles decent and is much more reliable with a huge difference in resale value than the Camaro. There are other reasons too for me. My commute is 160mi/day! I average 29-30mpg with the GSR. I think the Camaro would average around 15mpg. I used to have V8 hotrods from the early 70's back in the 80's when I was a teenager and up until I was about 22. Then the imports really got my attention with their DOHC, 4valves/cyl. and their handling. In 1986 I drove my friend's brand new Prelude Si and that was it. I was hooked on imports (primarily Honda). The Prelude really impressed me with its refinement, high revving engine and incredible handling for 1986 standards. Took it out again (2nd time it had 1500 mi.) on the highway and opened it up to about 115mph and it was extremely stable. Lane changes and manouvering at high speeds was so easy that I was convinced imports were better cars than the big 'ol American V8s I was driving (new ones too - parents' cars, friend's parent's cars - most of them V8s). Of course the Prelude was Honda's leading sports car at the time, but it blew my friend's Transam away as far as stability, handling and breaking, and other friends were complaining about squeaks and rattles in the their Camaro IROC-Zs and how they 're at the dealer all the time with mechanical failures and other warranty items. Early '90 my friend's Prelude Si had 86k mi. and he had ZERO failures and visits to the dealer. I was impressed and by that time Honda was already the leader in reliability and resale value. He sold the car w/86k mi.(mint cond. of course) for $8900 4yrs later. He had paid $14K for it almost 4yrs before. The car only depreciated $1275/yr and he had more miles on it than average. I knew then I was going to buy a Honda soon.. the rest is history.
The mods we do is because they do make the car a little faster and they 're not that expensive. If we want really good performance we can supercharge or turbocharge and blow away all stock Camaros, GTs and even Vettes! So why pay $40K+ for a Vette when for $5-6K you can blow it away with your $20K or under car? Now if you want to spend around $10-12K you can have a race car with 11sec. 1/4 mi. times. For a Vette to hit 10-11sec. (stock it's 13.xx) you have to get the twin turbo kit which is over $20K!! Most Integras with around $6K can be turbocharged and do some headwork (fuel pump, pulleys, fuel controller,etc. external stuff) to put down 300+ hp at the wheels. That's enough for them to go the 1/4 in 13sec. flat. Spend twice that much and you have a race car putting down 450-500whp doing the 1/4 in 11sec. or less.
That's why people mod their little 4cyl. cars. For most it's a project or hobby to keep them busy and they can be faster than most V8s with less money spent. I do it for the handling mostly. I don't have but 1 bolt on engine mod but that one alone gave me an extra 13hp and it was noticeable immediately. I can go on and on why we mod our cars but this post is already too long and I think I made my point

PS. Killed a 323 yesterday. Felt really good. Persistent fellow though. He didn't give up until he was doing about 125mph, but by that time I was about 5-6 car lengths ahead and pulling away (slowly but was pulling away nevertheless)

mzn · August 2000

So, how 'bout them Golfs? :-)

carlady/host

alfaromeo · August 2000

Thanks for your full and interesting reply.
I was just curious - and you made some really good points. Again, thanks.

liz28 · October 2000

I am looking to buy a new car and was considering the Jetta--however, I belong to a car club and would want to take my car to High Speed Driver Education events on some racetracks in the area. It seems that a 2001 GTI w/ the 1.8T, standard "sport suspension" and 17" wheel option would be cheaper by 1K than a comparable Jetta (which offers for 2001 a sport lux package w/ sport sus. and 17" wheels--and a sunroof!) Does the GTI just plain handle better than a Jetta? I am planning on balloon-loaning the car, so I was also wondering about value later down the line.

josky · January 2001

I bought a GI 1.8t last year with a sport suspension and there is a noticeable difference,It has bigger sway bars as well. The 1.8t is the best engine on the planet for under 20k.
If I bought now I would opt for the 17 inch wheels and better tires. check to see if the car was built in Germany!!!

sebz · January 2001

I bought 2001 GTI GLS with 17" mags I paid 400usd (600can)for the kit ,that is cheap for PILOT SPORT tire in 225/45/17, so futre owners of golf gti, buy the kit it worth every penny
I didnt bought the sport suspension cause i could not try one, and I dont trust the dealer (I trust a good combo of neuspeed sport springs and bilstein shocks)
My english is bad (I am french)

SPORT SUSPENSION ON GOLF GTI

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