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VW Golf

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  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    You said "Personally, I cannot understand how a bad fuelpump can 'blow' a diesel engine... would not the engine just stop running? </i "

    I am eagerly awaiting a response to your question becasue I beleive you are correct.

    Unlike a gasoline engine, a diesel engine speed is controlled by the amount of fuel injected into it.
    *)Too much fuel and it makes black smoke.
    *)Too little fuel and it has no power. (engine quits)

    Unless the fuelpump somehow shreds metal particls into the engine... it is not possible to "damage" a diesel engine with a fuelpump malfunction.

    With a gasoline engine, the same is not true. If the fuel-pressure is too low and the engine runs lean.... engine-knock could punch holes in the pistons or the resultant heat could cause aluminum pistons to melt.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    You said "Personally, I cannot understand how a bad fuelpump can 'blow' a diesel engine... would not the engine just stop running? "

    I am eagerly awaiting a response to your question becasue I beleive you are correct.

    Unlike a gasoline engine, a diesel engine speed is controlled by the amount of fuel injected into it.
    *)Too much fuel and it makes black smoke.
    *)Too little fuel and it has no power. (engine quits)

    Unless the fuelpump somehow shreds metal particls into the engine... it is not possible to "damage" a diesel engine with a fuelpump malfunction.

    With a gasoline engine, the same is not true. If the fuel-pressure is too low and the engine runs lean.... engine-knock could punch holes in the pistons or the resultant heat could cause aluminum pistons to melt.
  • Firstly, there was a problem with a part in the fuel system of a very tiny fraction of 2010 TDIs. And, because VWoA did not immediately take charge of this issue, some owners were at least temporarily inconvenienced.

    But, this did not affect the TDI engines themselves; it was not a widespread problem; and VWoA has or will be reimbursing owners who initially had to pay for repairs out of pocket.

    If I was not totally content with the Golf TDI I have now, if I was looking for a new car, I would only be in the market for another Golf TDI. I would, however, happily recommend the 2.5-liter gas-engine model for those who don't drive enough miles to justify the TDI engine.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    edited October 2010
    You said "....for those who don't drive enough miles to justify the TDI engine. "

    I have never understood the logic behind such words.... The number of miles driven per year should have absolutely no bearing on ones decsion to buy a diesel.

    Buy a diesel because
    *) better Fuel-cost-per-mile than any other vehicle on the planet.
    *) Lower maintenance costs due to no ignition system to wear out or require maintaince.
    *) Higher resale value due to high demand for TDI.
    *) Any extra cost to purchase TDI is recoverd when you sell it. (nearly break even)

    Notice miles-driven per year does not factor in at all.

    If you have some specific numbers that somehow show miles-driven per year can be a factor... please append here so we can all see it.
  • My point was that diesels make the best sense when you drive lots of miles, because the lower fuel cost per mile adds up faster. If you only drive 10k or even 15k miles a year, then the cost of fuel is a fairly insignificant part of your total cost of ownership. And, it doesn't matter so much that a diesel-powered car like a VW Golf TDI can last for 500k miles, because it would take such a driver 25-50 years to accumulate that many miles.

    I only have 317k miles on the Golf TDI I bought new in the summer of 2003. It was the best decision I ever made when buying a car. But that does not make it the best choice for everyone else.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I agree, my son just bought a 2.5. Like me, he does not put a lot of miles on.

    I drive about 7000-8000 miles per year. I have little reason to care about an engine lasting 200,000 miles and the fuel cost savings going from, say, 25 mpg to 35 mpg would be only about $250 per year or $2500 in 10 years. I would not see a TDI as being worth the extra cost. To me, it might be worth paying something like $1000 extra to get the diesel mpg.
  • vchiuvchiu Posts: 565
    I recently placed an order for a 1.6 TDI Golf with the DSG gearbox. The car will be for company use and shared with 3 other colleagues.
    Delivery is scheduled for January 2011.
    I propose to share my ownership experience on this forum, but is this thread the good place to do so, or should I go to another one?

    Forgot to add that company and myself are based in Paris / France. The Euro-Spec model I ordered is probably not sold in the US market. Would some people still be interested if I post some stories here?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    As soon as you said "1.6 TDI" , I knew it was a vehicle not available in North America.

    As far as I am concernted, you may post your 'stories' here.... but I will be jelous that you have all those optional TDI engines which we cannot get.
  • vchiuvchiu Posts: 565
    Well, this engine output is 105 HP only, which give the Golf 0-62 times comparable to that of a Prius.
    NA market has the 140 HP version which give the golf 2 seconds less on the same run without burning much more. I guess the extra MPG grabbed by the smaller 1.6 is not considered worth selling in the country of cheap gas.

    The reason we choose this very model is mainly because of French tax base on company cars. With 109g of CO2 per Km (4.2L per 100 Km which basically represent 56 mpg) Yearly tax is about 436 Euro (+/- 600 USD) per year.
    A previous 2.0 TDI Passat would command 2500 Euros (3500 USD) yearly tax as it belonged to the 160-200g/km bracket. This amount is roughly the forecasted yearly fuel bill of the new car...

    I, for one, would have prefered the smooth power of the 2.0 TDI, but the tax bracket was significantly higher.

    Ordered model was a Carat version, displayed as a high-end version. On top of the DSG, we chose heating sport power leather seats, Adaptative Xenon lights, RNS 510 GPS Navigation and rear camera + park Assist. 16inch alloy wheels on 55X205 tyres.

    Color is metallic Titan grey and black/black inside. We considered Tan color but the upper side of the dash was still black, which did not fit well.
    No sunroof
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Cheap gas (we are getting near $3 in my area currently) and also nothing like your annual car tax. In my state you pay a $75 fee per year for any car. Some states do have higher registration fees but pretty sure none would approach even $600.
  • vchiuvchiu Posts: 565
    Diesel price per Gallon is about $6 and about $7.5 for gas here. and France is right in the average European Price.

    European car tax varies a lot and definitely weights a lot on car choices. I am happy to see the US tax system is pretty soft on cars. Definitely not the same on cars.
    Hopefully individuals don't pay as much car tax as companies. Company car tax can go up to $ 5000 per year for a thirsty car.

    On top of that, you have some Bonus / Malus systems wich gives incentives on high MPG cars and strikes thirstier ones. A Prius will get like $1400 incentive, while many 6 cylinder or above engined cars may have to add up to $3700 on the purchasing bill.

    The Golf TDI we ordered belonged to the B bracket thanks to its low combined MPG of 56 (if measured by current US EPA standards, I would gess a tick below 50) So it gest an incentive of $700. The 2.0 TDI wouldn't have any.
  • puffin1puffin1 Posts: 276
    edited November 2010
    The VW Polo is coming to the U.S. next fall if it comes with a TDI I would like to get one. I have a 2.5 VW Golf only have 4000 miles on it and If I shift into 5th gear I can get 32 mpg highway around town is about 24mpgs.
    The TDI diesal 2.0 gets 34 to 42 mpg.I would have had to spend $ 5000 more for it thats alot of gas money.
    Let me know how you like your new car. :shades:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    According to fueleconomy.gov, at 15,000 miles per year the difference in fuel cost is $265 per year, so it would take 19 years (285,000 miles) to save $5000 in fuel costs.

    Another way to look at it is the $5000 will buy all your gas for 3 years.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Woah! -- You should not be trying to recoup the entire cost of TDI against the fuel-savings. There are other factors to consider.

    Do not forget that RESALE VALUE of TDIs is significantly higher than the gasser. Hence, you may wish to assume about 1/2 of the savings in fuel and the other 1/2 recouped in resale value. (or assume even MORE recoup in resale value.)

    Additionally, the TDI has LOWER maintenance costs than gasser. (No ignition system to break, no sparkplugs to replace, no ignitor nor wires to fail.... etc)

    TDI engine has ~500,000 mile life-expectancy while the gasser tends to get tired after about 200,000 miles.

    Besides, does it really matter how LONG it takes to recoup savings? As long as the rest of the vehicle lasts that long, you still come out ahead. With the 12-year/unlimited mile corrosion-warantee, the body will last and last.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    First let me say that I love oil burners. (no, not GM's effort when they tried to convert a V8 gas block to diesel)

    I don't agree with all your opinions here, tho. Hope you don't mind me elaborating a bit?

    Yes, resale value is better. Much better in cities and towns where owners do a daily commute from, to larger cities 50 miles away. And those commute miles are the ones you want on a diesel if they are numerous, as short stop and start trips in town, especially in cold wx, are not the miles you want on a used diesel purchase.

    But, I don't entirely agree that maintenance costs are, right across the board, blanket statement-like, less. Nowadays, gas engines with coil on iridium plug tech etc go well over 100000 miles with nary more than oil and air filter changes. But on the diesel you will pay more, not only for the oil filter, but the oil itself. Plus there are factors of considerable expense, way down the road. I should say 'potential' expense cuz of the varied (often ignorant) use/misuse of diesel engine components. Especially if they are turbocharged. The turbo itself, is very expensive if it starts throwing oil because it wasn't allowed to spool down most of its life on shutdowns. So expensive in fact, that in 200 to 250000 miles (when it might show its abuse) it would more than finance as many tune-ups as the equivalent gas job would incur in the same time-frame. And that is just the turbo. Injector pump repairs, make the turbo look like pocket change...(slight exaggeration) :) But you get my point. Then, there are the timing belt re and re costs every 60 to 80k miles cuz the diesels are all interference engines. (and many competitively classed cars are using chains not belts, so they are lasting very high miles also.

    And I don't agree with your 200000 mile suggestion that the gas job is tired. Some yes, but lets say its had proper oil and coolant changes, 300+ is far more likely.

    And of the two, a gas job is actually more forgiving of maintenance neglect than the diesel is. Sure, the diesel will keep on being neglected for quite a long term...even 125 to 150+ k miles, but when it says "I've had enough of this, I'm outta here" the costs will be huge. HUGE. Buy an entire dif 3 yr old small car, huge.

    And/but finally, in the right hands, driving an oil burner is just a different visceral experience than a gas job. It has an entirely dif character that is rich in low revs and gobs of torque.
    For those that don't 'get it', their loss..
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    FWIW, edmunds has nearly the same maintenance and repair cost for the diesel and gas models of the golf.

    Of course, the time to recoup the extra expense matters, as that determines the return on investment. For someone like me, who drives about 8000 miles per year the diesel is likely not worth the extra expense. For someone who drives 20,000 miles per year, they would probably come out ahead by going with the diesel.

    One problem is VW requires you to take a more equipped model to get the TDI, so the extra $5000 (if that is what it is) is paying for more than just the diesel engine. So the choice would also depend on how much you care about those extras.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I know what you mean. I like luxuries like really good seats, heated also, but I don't want a sunroof.
    And it is getting harder and harder to find a few luxuries if you want a manual tranny.
    One of the tricks they do is pkg cruise control with a bunch of other stuff that not everyone wants or needs.

    I won't let that stop me though, as I have a brand new Audiovox cruise control ready to go into the next vehicle or bike I buy that doesn't have it, or I have to pay huge to get. I already retrofitted one of these very units on my bike and it works like a charm. All electronic. Senses at the brake lights for canceling, and the tach and speed sensor for set.

    The new Cruze or Elantra is a good example. I like the old days..before "packages".
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    "FWIW, edmunds has nearly the same maintenance and repair cost for the diesel and gas models of the golf."

    I can't find this info, please send link.

    I find it hard to believe actually. For one thing it is hard to compare a gas to a dsl engine in that way. As one example, a fuel injection pump costs way more than a carb or a set of injectors or a throttle body. I know for an absolute fact that it costs way more to rebuild a dsl than a gas.

    But even routine maintenance ,I find that hard to believe.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Go through the "true cost to own" thing: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/intro.do

    and when you get the cost for a particular car you can click on "view details" to see the costs for maintenance and repair.

    This ends up showing 5 year, 75K mi total of $3148 maintenance and $930 repair for gas and $2749 and $1230 for the diesel... so both end up at about $4000 total for R&M.

    (those specific figures are for 4 door automatic, they vary a bit for other versions but still right around $4000)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited November 2010
    oh, but that is only at 75k miles. I'd much rather see the end result at about 300+ thous miles. Then you would see that some of the ones that slipped on maintenance, the dsl can really cost you. It can eat into fuel savings pretty bad. The point I was trying to make, was, if you neglect a gas and a dsl, the dsl will cost a lot more to rebuild.

    thanks for link, I will check it out.

    edit - that link isn't working, says page not found, might be a temporary glitch
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Link works for me, but you can also get there from "tips and advice" on the menu line.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    found it - thanks
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2010
    Please post your CarCostCanada Dealer Invoice (wholesale) Prices for the Golf 5 dr Wagon TDI.
    Please only post purchases made in Canada and in Cdn dollars.

    Or post the price you paid if you don't know Dealer Cost.

    - state whether Comfortline or Highline and DSG or 6 sp manual trans.
    - options, if any
    - Province and City

    For comparisons sake, this is Manufacturers Suggested List on:
    2011 Golf 5 dr Wagon TDI
    Comfortline 6 MT MSRP is 26875.
    Destination 1365.
    28240.
    + 100. A/C excise tax
    + other taxes

    If there appear to be few results, then feel free to post pricing on gas engine also, but make sure you specify the engine.

    Trying to find out just what kind of discount can be had on the TDI.
    In Cda, for 2011, the TDI is only available in the Golf 5 dr wagon.
  • vchiuvchiu Posts: 565
    I agree with your statement.

    Diesel cars are considered more expensive to maintain. Unlike earlier diesel which had no turbo nor high pressure injection, modern ones are much more "sensitive".
    For instance, they are much less tolerant to bad quality diesel. Filling-up in a supermarket (10% cheaper than in branded gas station in France) is not advised for a modern diesel, according to my dealer.

    On the contrary, a gas engine is relatively simple and not that demanding.

    As Diesel is about %15 cheaper than gas in this country and that this car is intended for 140K Miles, the extra investment over gas will be recoupped in the long term.

    We subscribed for an all-inclusive warranty and repair over a 6 -year period. Maintenance costs will be therefore set without surprise. With a regular maintenance and good quality oil, there is no reason this car could not reach 200K miles without major issue.

    On a side note, delivery of the car has been delayed to the beginning of february. This makes a delivery lead time of more than 3 months
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  • There are a few differences between France and North America. First, the fuel in the US and Canada is all pretty good; but it is important to buy from busy stations that get frequent deliveries. So avoid the lazy neighborhood stations that might only sell a thousand gallons a month, so only get one delivery. The busy stations tend to be the ones with the lowest prices, and they may get deliveries every day or even several.

    Increasingly, more gas-engine cars will have turbos and higher-pressure fuel injection for better fuel economy and performance. So maintenance and repair costs will equalize, if indeed gas engines were more expensive. Diesels are not more complicated, the main complexity is with pollution control devices.

    In the US diesel has been about 10% more expensive at the pumps, but the cost per mile for TDIs is still much less. Golf TDIs come with more features and equipment as standard equipment compared to the gassers, but if you could equalize the equipment then the TDI engine itself adds about $2000. This higher value increases over time; the resale value of TDIs holds up better than comparable gas-engine models.

    Lastly, TDIs make more sense if you drive more miles. If you only drive 10k-15k miles a year, then no matter what you drive it won't consume that much fuel. But if you drive 20k-50k miles a year, then a TDI can be the best investment you every make.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Wow, long wait..I feel bad for you. Once u decide what u plan to buy, the wait can be grueling, especially if your present car is ailing.

    I suspect we will eventually see more diesel choices in NA. For example, why we can't have the Polo here is beyond me. They are on the hybrid, and full battery kick. But no one seems to care that their efficiency goes down the farther north you live, and plummets in freezing climates.

    Like i always tell anyone who asks me what to buy if both engines are available, and they drive many miles or pull heavy loads often...if gasoline was a superior fuel with superior advantages, then railroad engines, heavy trucks and even city buses would all still use gas.
  • vchiuvchiu Posts: 565
    edited January 2011
    >Wow, long wait..

    The previous passat ordered as new took about 6 month to come. It seems a majority of German cars sold in Europe are ordered this way. I think this is because of the wealth of options.
    If one is not demanding in terms of colors or options, then one can buy an available car from the lot. But the options set we required (auto tranny + leather) is seldomly available on this class of car. Therefore, we need to place order.

    > why we can't have the Polo here is beyond me

    Actually, the top of the line Polo cost in Europe about 25K Euros, that easily exceeds 30K USD. Margins are tighter on small cars and the Euro is expensive, so there is no business case for US market to import Germany made Polos.
    Basically, the Polo is a small Golf, so I assume tooling costs are close for both models. I speculate that duplicating the tooling in order to manufacture it in Mexico may not be considered as profitable.

    I also think a reasonably priced Polo could make a hit in the US market with the latest TSI motors (I think TDI motors would be too expensive). One good option would be to build it in the future VW US plant. I don't see it coming soon, as I already have doubts about the profitability of the Honda Fit, the toyota Yaris or the Mazda 2 in this side of the pond.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Oh, I didn't realize the Polo was so expensive. I thought it had a little inline 3 cyl turbo dsl.
  • vchiuvchiu Posts: 565
    Well, there is still a debate in France on whether gas sold by oil companies is better than gas sold by supermarkets. Although there are fewer supermarket-controlled gas stations, they account for about half of all the sold petroleum in the country.

    In other words, supermarket gas station are much busier than the average brand gas station. It would make sense to consider, all things being equal, that gas bought from a busier station would be more secure. It is claimed however that oil companies follow stricter standards and quality control procedures. Other claims are that some better additives are mixed in the petrol while Supermarkets would be a step behind in that matter. This is a long debate here. But I keep in mind what you say in case I am lucky enough to travel to North America.

    >Lastly, TDIs make more sense if you drive more miles
    The "break even point" between Diesel or Gas is also considered at around
    10K miles (15k km). Given that Diesel is more expensive in the US and that diesel car command a large premium, I am surprised by how close the figure you quote is to France's.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Europe is a completely different market from the US and car prices are all much higher than in the US. It's not quite current, but according to this:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2009_volkswagen_polo-first_drive_re- view

    the Polo was starting at the equivalent of $17,000 in Germany.

    And according to this: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q4/2010_volkswagen_golf_rabbit-second_- drive

    The Golf starts at the equivalent of $22,500...and that's with a 79 HP, 1.4L engine.
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