Subaru Legacy/Outback

jeep1988 · September 2005

I am looking at buying a used 2001 L.L. Bean Outback, with the H6 engine. It recommends the 91 octane, however, can it run with 87 octane.

With gas price the way they are, it just seems to be too much.

Also, what type of gas milage does the 01' L.L.Bean get?
Thanks

P.S. I am also looking at a 2001 Toyota Highlander Limited, which would be better in your opinion and why?

rsholland · September 2005

I've been told that yes, you can run 87 octane. However I was also told that it's not a good idea to only use 87. I was told to use it for maybe a couple of tankfulls, then run 91. Bottom line is yes, but not as a steady diet.

Now this info was pertaining to new H6s, which are different than what you have. My "guess" is that this info would also hold true for older models too.

Bob

ateixeira · September 2005

That engine was tuned as aggressively. Subaru stated 212hp on premium fuel, but 208hp on regular. That they went as far as stating the HP with 87 octane, I think you'll be fine.

-juice

jeffmc · September 2005

Here's a great place to get all the specs, stats, options, etc for all the 2001 Outback models. http://www.cars101.com/outback2001.html#2001

Your yearly extra cost purchasing premium instead of regular would probably be less than $200 (assuming you drive an average amount)... maybe $15 bucks a month? Probably worth the cost.

Both are fine vehicles. Best wishes on your upcoming purchase.

jeep1988 · September 2005

jeffmc and atexieria,

Thanks for the wishes and thanks for the web link.

Is it true that Subarus, when need to be fixed are very expensive?... maybe more so than Toyota?

ateixeira · September 2005

I don't think so, in fact my dealer (Fitzgerald) has both Toyota and Subaru and the prices for service are similar.

Better yet, get a Subaru Chase credit card, and you'll earn Subaru Bucks so that service is free. Toyota doesn't offer such a card, so my Subaru card puts me well ahead of anyone who bought one of those.

Even the body shop takes them. We used $300 in Subaru bucks, then got reimbursed, and got to keep the cash! That means so far I actually have a profit from service/repair on our Legacy.

Beat that, Toyota.

-juice

joeb24 · September 2005

How do I get a Subaru Chase credit card?

occking · September 2005

Try this number (866) 393-8038 or (866) 263-7005 I am sure one of them will work. For a new card you may get $25 in Subie bucks just for opening the account

I have three cards now since I got my car in early January, and have already earned $700 in bucks & will get the other $800 by end of this year (of course you have to spend a lot of money, almost $17,000 per card to earn back 3% or $500.
I neverused to use credit cards now I use them for everything. Even gave one to wife (that may have been a mistake!)

Another tip--for those of you that do a lot of traveling consequent use a lot of gas. Open a Hess Credit Card--for first 90 days you will get 10% off all gas purchases from Hess Stations--5% afterwards.

jeffmc · September 2005

I've never owned a Toyota to directly compare, but the Subarus we've owned have been cheaper to repair than the Hondas we've owned. If you find a reputable independent mechanic in your area who specializes in Subarus, I'd guess you could save about 20% over a dealer's cost. You could try posting over in the "Subaru Crew Cafe" forum to see if anyone there can recommend a shop in your area, or try the forum "Subaru Crew: Best Service Facilities".

I have had bad experiences taking my Subies to folks who don't specialize in them, even for brakes and wheels (excluding tires), so I wouldn't recommend going just anywhere. Just my two cents.

ateixeira · September 2005

Not many Hess stations around here, but Shell has a similar card.

Shell gives 5% of Shell gas (only Shell), and 1% off everything else. Probably comes out to about a 1.05% average.

Subaru's card is better, IMO, you get 3% off everything.

Our dealer let us put $2000 down on our Legacy on the card, right then and there we accumulated $60.

-juice

xwesx · September 2005

My friend's garage, that is..... Oy. He sure does a good job on the vehicles, but I'd be amazed if he ever cleaned up after himself.

I tore the engine out of the Subie last night. Took about three hours before I actually had it hanging from the hoist - longer than I had hoped, but I also only had about 12" of clearance on three sides of the car and 6" on the fourth.... doesn't make for very good working conditions. To make the rest of the process smoother, I pushed the car back out into the driveway until I am finished with the engine. As promised, I did take some photos! They weren't overly frequent because I had to take shots only after wiping copious amounts of sludge off my hands, but enough to follow the general process. I think my favorite part is removing the hood from the vehicle because you know you're really gonna tear into the bugger when you do that! The car's mileage this time around is 192,463.

Hahah.... I went ahead and pre-skun my knuckles playing broomball on Wednesday night, so I made it through the engine removal without doing any damage to my hands. That is a good sign.... for me anyway! Typically, I only make it about 10 minutes before the first knuckle starts bleeding.

I will keep folks updated as the process progresses. I will probably take tonight off since I was up until nearly 0100 and arose for work this morning at 0530.

As always...... :sick:

occking · September 2005

Shell had a deal a few months ago--open up account with them, use it four times & get $25 off immediately. Got the card, used it four times, stopped using it, got the bill, it had the $25 off paid it, called Shell & cancelled the card then destroyed the card. Now I will use the Hess card exclusively for the next 2.5 months to continue to get 10%. When that is up will go back to my AAA Platinum Visa which can give you 5% off gas purchases, or maybe apply for another Shell Card. Plenty of Shell stations around here in New England. Same for Shell. It's a game you gotta play, if you have the time. Bought a $500 item at Home Depot, got $50 off cause I opened an account, got the bill, got the discount, paid it off then cancelled the card.

ateixeira · September 2005

That's hilarious. You beat the system.

Of course you probably spent 8 hours on hold, in which case your hourly rate was below minimum wage.

-juice

zman3 · September 2005

And your FICO score will take a hit if you keep applying for credit.

jfl · September 2005

Wes,

I know I've become a wuss...I wear rubber or latex gloves when working on cars. Clean up is a toss (into the waste basket).

I also know what you mean about the photos. Pretty soon, you're so engrossed in the work you've done twenty things before you remember "I should have taken pix of that!"

Praying for you that it all goes smoothly.

Jim

ticoar · September 2005

I second the comment about the FICO score. Any of you young people out there or people who are considering buying a home or refiniancing, if you open so many accounts and play that game too often you will take a hit when you need your credit score the most. What may save you minimal dollars through these deals could cost you thousands when you need that credit the most.

fibber2 · September 2005

Agree.....

My wife keeps being attracted to these types of offers, and I keep holding her back. We go for a card, use it for a few years, then move on. Back it the '90's it was a Ford Citibank card. Got $3k off a 2 year lease on a Windstar in '00. It basically paid for the first 8 payments or so. When Citibank broke with Ford, they invented 'Drivers Edge', and I got a $500 check when I bought the Subi. We then called Citibank and had them change it to an American Airlines card. Took the family to Florida for free earlier this summer, and have enough miles left for another family trip we are planning for the spring. Also have a Discover Card. When we hit the limits on the other card (max rebates per year), we shift to Discover and take the cash....

We charge everything, pay it off in full every month.

Steve

robr2 · September 2005

When that is up will go back to my AAA Platinum Visa which can give you 5% off gas purchases...

Double check that - they cut the rebate early in the summer if you only use for gas purchases. I know that my rebate on that card has been more like 2% recently.

xwesx · September 2005

You know, I really should wear gloves.... especially when working with the parts cleaning solvents, but the parts cleaner eats the latex (makes it as slippery as mucus) and I am too single-minded to remember to pick up a pair of solvent gloves on a pass through town. Thankfully, I am finished with the parts cleaning and I am not overly OCD, so i can get by with appropriate amounts of cleaning and not a shiny like-new engine when finished.

I disassembled the engine and reassembled it this weekend. I tell ya, there was way more carbon buildup in those cylinders than I ever imagined would be there! My friend was surprised too, but for all the old cars he tears apart, none of them have anywhere near the mileage of my Subaru! The headgaskets on it were absolute trash.... i am amazed that no coolant was penetrating into the combustion chamber. The coolant actually wasn't escaping anywhere on the HGs. There was oil leaking to the exterior and combustion gases/gunk escaping to the coolant, but no visible coolant escapement. It turns out that i was losing the coolant from the intake port on the top left of the engine... I guess the seal must have given up when I had the water pump issue back in February and it just became progressively worse as time went on.

Status as of right now: The engine is reassembled up to the cam sprockets. I *just* received a call that my timing idler pulley kit arrived, so I can pick that up this evening and hopefully have the engine back in the car before midnight..... we'll see. This 11 mpg pickup is killing my pocketbook.... Well, not as much as the parts (up to almost $800 now) for the car, but at least I have more to show for it than carbon dioxide and water for now!

One final note: Satan must have had a good laugh when the engineers at Subaru designed the right camshaft sprockets (driver's side). :mad:

I'll give a final update as to whether the engine runs, and post a link to a photo site.

-Wes-

ateixeira · September 2005

-juice

shmerham · September 2005

I've got my heart set on an h6 outback. At this point in the game, I think the cost increase of the vdc is low enough to be worth it.

Given that the H6 was released in 01 is it a bad idea to buy a used one of this year or has it been a reliable first year design? The price increase to get an 02 is pretty significant. More than I'd like to spend.

I'm in New England. Any suggestions on how to get this rare model for a low price? I've been scouring local and regional classifieds. I missed a recent deal, not sure how long it'll be till another one comes along. Been thinking about trying to get Bill Kolb Jr. in New York to find me one since they seem to have the best prices within 200 miles of me.

Lastly, I really like the macintosh system, but I'd like to replace the head unit with something that plays mp3 cd's. Can an aftermarket head unit plug into the amp? What type of inputs does the amp have?

Thanks everyone!

ateixeira · September 2005

From what we observed here on Edmunds, the H6 has always been reliable. There was one troll that whined about his but he went away and we didn't hear any other major complaints.

-juice

fibber2 · September 2005

If you scroll back thru the Outback boards, you will see some complaints of mystery coolant loss from a number of H6 owners (check the Outback VDC board as well). I believe it remains a mystery, as nobody ever really was able to tell where it went! No head gasket issues like the EJ25 4cyl engines have.

Steve

ateixeira · September 2005

Good point, though noone ever had trouble because of that. It was just an unsolved mystery - the coolant level would settle below the Low reading.

-juice

xwesx · September 2005

Wait..... wait, wait wait. The EJ25 has head gasket issues?! Why did nobody mention this before????? :P

So, I was able to get the timing system back together last night and reinstalled the engine in the car. The spark plug wires came in today as promised, so with a little luck and a few hours, I should be able to get all the accessories and manifolds reinstalled on the engine.... oh darn it. I just remembered that I need to get intake manifold gaskets! Grr..... hmm..... darn it all. I got them once but the inept service people gave me the wrong gasket and now I forgot to get them replaced. Bummer.

Well, anyhow, that car's going to be running again tonight if I can manage it. Or it will be to the point that it WOULD run if it would just run!

Good timing, too, because it has been raining for 4 days now and the "big freeze" is supposed to happen tonight accompanied by a few inches of snow to greet us in the morning. So, it should be nice and slick tomorrow and I would hate to greet my season's first snowfall in my C20.

mikenk · September 2005

I was one of the early VDC owners with the mysterious coolant loss. It is now three years later; the coolant still settles in a little low, but realistically it has never been a problem. I actually seldom check it anymore.

I have had no repairs done on the car - nor any squeeks, leaks, or rattles.

Mikenk

dged · September 2005

Hi, Dave,

I saw your posting about the plastic shield on the 2001 Outback. I have a 2004 Outback with a shield like that, and it also has a smaller screw-in section with large Phillips-head plastic screws. The whole thing is pretty beat up. Is it worth taking off and trying to epoxy it back into shape? Or, as you said about the one on the 2001 Outback, is it okay to just remove the whole thing? I figured that it was there for a purpose, but I can;t understand how it got so grungy: I never hit anything that hard.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Best,

David

ateixeira · September 2005

Thanks for the update, Mikenk, and glad to hear it never became a real problem.

I took the cover off my Forester and it's had no negative effects.

-juice

lloydl · September 2005

It has happened. The knowledgeable public-at-large is finally learning in detail about Subaru's increasingly evident QC problems, especially with the expensive engine leaks and the dreaded head gasket failures.

I just listed our immaculate (1 of 3 in family) Outback wagons -- the 1998 -- for sale in Sf Bay area, at attractive price. 80,000 total miles. All maintenance, and then some (seals, clutch!!!! thermostat, etc.). So far, of 4 "serious buyers", none have taken the car, while admitting it is in "great shape". Why? Because their mechanics, "car inspectors" and friends have warned them off 1997-20xx? models of Subaru BECAUSE OF POOR RELIABILITY and "expected major repairs". If the HG repair has not been recently done on any older model, especially DOHC models, of course -- the deal falls through. Now, admittedly, this is California and most of the buyers want something that will reliably take them to the mountains and so on plus handle a longer commute every day. But the word is most definitely out. As one put it, "heck, just google on the 'net for "head gaskets" and you'll get the bad news". He is right.

Subaru's stonewalling some sort of rebate to previous owners for these disastrous QC failures is going to pay off first in lack of a market for the clean used vvehicles, and then -- a dent in new car sales as this market reaction moves upward. No question about it.

We will probably trade this Subaru now -- for less than it's worth -- but not for another model. Cannot trust SOA for support. As our others wear out, we'll move on to other brands. We will not be alone.

bat1161 · September 2005

As someone who had the HG failure on my 2000 OBW, I can not understand how this casues Subaru to be rated poorly. They had a problem, they corrected it, and covered it under warranty. What more do you want? For those that did not have the HG failure, they added an additive to the coolant. Again, that is taking responsibility.

One last thing. I beleive the HG issue was for 2000 - early 2002 models. After that, I do not recall any issues.

Mark

ateixeira · September 2005

The opposite is true. Consumer Reports named Subaru the most reliable brand in their most recent survey.

What more do you want, given they offered 8/100k coverage? If it hasn't failed by then, it probably never will.

-juice

snowbelter · September 2005

Juice, we like our two Subarus, but I recall CU saying that Subaru was the most reliable car for the 2004 model year.

ateixeira · September 2005

That post might get deleted, you mentioned other forums (that compete with Edmunds) by name.

If you have a failue, call 800-SUBARU3 because they've helped people outside of that range with failures as well, if you can reasonably show that you kept up the maintenance.

-juice

PF_Flyer · September 2005

It's not so much that other forums are mentioned, it's how they are mentioned that matters.Let me give you some examples of what's acceptable or not with regard to the mention of other forums to help clear things up for future reference:

Acceptable: "A lot of people over at My Favorite Car Register say their Model A's do the same thing."

Bad: "Go over to http://www.myfavoritecarregister.com/forums and check out what those owners have to say."

Also Bad: "If you look over at myfavoritecarregister.com in the Forums and search for blah you will see this as well"

The second two are basically driving traffic to the other site, one with a direct link and one telling folks to look over at another site and do a search. That's really what we're trying to avoid as we're not in the business of promoting or creating traffic for other automotive forums.

Hope that's helpful!

ateixeira · September 2005

It is, thanks Bob.

-juice

zman3 · September 2005

To refresh everyone's memory, Subaru did NOT do anything to extend the warranty to the pre 2000 owners as best as I can tell. The Phase I engines had an internal leak that the additive did not address. My 98 OB had the head gaskets replaced and I never received any notice for the additive nor an extension of my warranty for the gaskets. The Phase I's are the ones overheating I believe.

xwesx · September 2005

As unfortunate as it is, the '96 - '98 owners are taking the brunt of the HG issue. I dunno though; pre 100K or even 140K failures of the gaskets represent real problems with reliability - after 150K, it's just normal maintenance. The unfortunate part is that these engines are so sensitive to heat, etc., that any failure of the gaskets typically results in a massive repair bill.

I think the best course of action is preventative maintenance - if someone else is doing it, it becomes very EXPENSIVE maintenance but will result in a car that provides continuing reliability. I'm not sure why anyone who currently owns a car of that vintage would be overly interested in the resale value of it anyway. Shoot, if you have it now, you've long since decided that you were going to keep it through its reasonable useful life (~10 years). Who knows, keep it another 15-20 years and you might get lucky.... it's resale value could go up! :P

The "general public's" reactions are very twitchy and you cannot prevent people from giving into their fears....

goosegog · September 2005

Well, I've never had the HG problem but at only 53,000 km (33,000 miles) my 2000 OB clutch is slipping. We never had the juddering. The dealer says this is not unusual and they simply don't last as long as the old asbestos clutches. At $500 for labour and $500 for parts this is a royal pain, especially as I'm currently locked out by my employer.

Every 5 years on a car that only does about 11,000 km a year is normal?

jeffmc · September 2005

I don't suppose a clutch falls under the 5-year, 60k-mile powertrain warranty, does it?

ateixeira · September 2005

Nope, that's a wear and tear item.

My '98 has been fine, 77k miles and going strong.

You can replace head gaskets for about $300 per side, so it's not exactly a devastating loss. As mentioned above the key is to stop the engine before you have severe overheating that might cause warping and give you much bigger problems.

-juice

cptplt · September 2005

so what am I supposed to look out for on my 98 Legacy 2.5 DOHC with 115K? Its running better now than it did a few years ago and my last oil analysis was looking great, will I see coolant in the oil???
I had a 86 Integra whose water pump went at 75K (after I declined a recommendation to replace it at 60K by the dealer because"all Honda water pumps go after 60K"). Didn't even overheat much but the engine was toast after that. cafe au lait in the radiator.

xwesx · September 2005

It depends on where the gasket(s) fail.... it could be coolant in oil, or coolant in combustion chamber, or combustion gunk in coolant (easy to notice that one because it builds up in the overflow tank's walls).... I think the coolant into the combustion chamber is the one that causes the severe overheating. Someone correct me if I am wrong! It could also leak to the exterior... either oil or coolant or both!

xwesx · September 2005

Smooth as Butter!

When is the last time I gave an update on the head gasket project?! I'm slacking here....

I put timing together and stuffed the engine back in the car on Monday night.... then reassembled everything on Tuesday night and could have tried to start it except that I forgot to bring the coolant with me!!!! Argh. Oh well.... I made one last trip over on Wednesday night, filled the coolant, and then started it. Initially it flooded - probably due to some oil loss from the hydraulic lifters (? not sure if that is the right term for the OHC hydraulics) and they were not opening the valves appropriately for a few rotations. I cleared the flood with a couple more cranks and it fired up - All told, about 9-12 spins of the engine. After that.... smooth as butter! Wow. Above 1000 RPM it is just glassy smooth all the way to 5500 (too timid to push it further!). After about 100 miles on it, I am loving the smooth power delivery and complete lack of hesitation.... both things that were not present before! Shoot, this is almost as good as when i put new shocks on it last year.

I am just thrilled that it runs at all, let alone so well. I hope it lasts! As promised, I am working on the photos and I have them downloaded to my computer, adjusted for web-viewing and ALMOST ready to post. As soon as I have a page built around them, I will post the link for you avid photo maniacs (juice!).

-Wes-

fibber2 · September 2005

Karl,

The problem seems broader than that. My '02 OBW already failed once (at 15k miles), yet is not covered by the '00 - '02 warranty extension. The VIN numbers are not inclusive. Why? I called SoA, but got no answer on this. No recommendation on whether the conditioner will help either (although I suspect it will, given that my external leak matches the pattern of the SOHC gasket failures). So I could be on my own if it goes again...

Steve

jfl · September 2005

Congrats Wes. Sounds like a job well done. I remember the sense of accomplishment back when I had the energy and desire to work on my cars. Felt great.

Jim

zman3 · September 2005

Steve:

That sucks. You kind of feel left out when other cars in the same model year are included and yours is not for some reason. At least with my 98, we are all in the same boat. Misery loves company, or something like that.

My 98 has been OK for about 50K miles now, and I am approaching 100K on the car. I am hoping that my head gasket job was done with the "newest" gaskets that seem to be performing better. Time will tell.

Karl

ateixeira · September 2005

Way to go, Wes! You should be proud buddy!

-juice

ebony5 · September 2005

Good going Wes. If you are ever in NYC I have a nice '96 OBW which would appreciate your touch

xwesx · September 2005

hahah..... well, I haven't posted the photos yet - you might change your mind!!!!

fibber2 · September 2005

Add my congratulations to the list. Did you get the snow that was forcast?

About 27 or so years ago in Potsdam, NY (near the Canadian boarder), I went thru what you just did on my pride and joy - '72 Mercury Montego. Once the snow drifts formed, we had a nasty time getting the car back into the garage to complete the installation. I never want to have to do this stuff again, unless maybe, for an antique restoration project.

Steve

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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