Subaru Legacy/Outback

PF_Flyer · September 2001

Always looking for new faces on Fridays...

Hey, it's Friday! Just a reminder that the Friday Freeway Chat & Trivia Game chat is on tonight (5-6pm Pacific/8-9 pm Eastern). Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/freewaychat.html

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nygreg · September 2001

Installed myself. Bumpers on deflector, plastic sheets on hood. No vibration noise even at high speeds. Clearance is about 1/4". Perhaps you can loosen the screws and twist the deflector a little to change how it "sits".

Greg

miksmi · September 2001

Re: theob Sep 7, 2001 2:27pm

Theo, I never tried it on the front bar, just the back, and had the same problem. I cranked it down even harder and angled it slightly toward the front of the car, about 80 degrees from the roof. Stayed put at 75mph.

..Mike in MD

kturner1 · September 2001

Ok, don't laugh. I need help on how to check my oil. After 24+ years of performing such tasks, this one's go me stumped. Got first oil change at dealership. Checked it at home the next morning and the level was up between the two twists. Way over the "high" notch. Went back to the dealer twice even though I felt really stupid. Checking the oil quick in/out they point to small dry spots on the dipstick and tell me they didn't overfill it. I prefer to check oil in the morning after everything including the dip tube has settled down. Any ideas??? I think I should change it myself and count quarts. Also, the owner manual refers to removing a shield under the engine to change the filter. My filter looks very accessible. Am I defective or what? Car is 01 Legacy. Hope this at least brightend your day.

wrobelc · September 2001

The shield referred to in the owner manual is on Outbacks and maybe GTs but not on the Legacy. As you've already found out the filter is visible and easy to change. I too check the oil after the car has sat for awhile. Pull out the dip stick and wipe it clean then reinsert and quickly pull out. It tends to be just under the High notch.

wrobelc · September 2001

I'd like to change the plugs on my 2000 Legacy. It looks like I'll have to take out items on the side of the car such as battery washer fluid bottle, etc. in order to access the plugs. Today, I just tried to pull the cables off the plugs to see how deep the plugs are but could not get the cables off. Has anyone changed plugs? Are the boots really that hard to take off the plug and did you have to pull items on the side to gain access to the plugs?

crawdadking · September 2001

Don't assume the dealer didn't overfill your engine when the changed it . On my first oil change they put in 7.5 qts. It takes 6qts. My oil level was above the twists on the dipstick.

Having said that, It is very important to have your car perfectly level when you check the oil. These engines have the dipstick right on the front (at least the H-6 does) and are very sensitive to level. My driveway is just slightly uphill and when pointing up registers a qt low and when pointing down registers a qt high. When I pull into the garage it's perfect. There is no magic here. Let the engine drain a minute, wipe the stick, insert and look. What you see is what you got.

I don't know why the sevice departments are so determined to overfill these engines. After all how many modern gas engines use more than 6qts (even V-8s) I called and complained for all the good it will do.

Good luck,
Guy

paisan · September 2001

Any reason you want to change them so soon? I mean I doubt you have 60K or 100K which is the interval on them yet? Heck I'm just changing mine for the first time on my '88 XT6 with 80K miles.

-mike

jregen7243 · September 2001

You would think a Subaru dealer would know how much oil to put in. The 4 cyl outbacks take 4.2 quarts, yet when I brought it to the dealer, they put in 5 (on top of spilling oil all over the place).

When you change it yourself, you know it's done right.

mreimink · September 2001

I just purchased a 1998 Legacy Outback Wagon. Does anyone have a suggestion as to a good Do-It-Yourself Repair manual and where I couold purchase it. Also, has anyone had any luck finding Owner's manuals for these cars?

originalbitman · September 2001

Oil overfill is fairly common. It happened to me at a dealer in Appleton, WI while on an extended road trip last fall. When I took it back the tech got fairly POed at me but the Service Manager agreed is was over (way over) and had him drain it. Since then I have seen quite a few posts hear regarding overfills. It is tricky to get a good reading on the H4. The car needs to be level and you need to check it after it has had a few minutes to drain down. If it is hot it will also read slightly high and there is a notch on the dipstick for hot readings. I now do all my own oil changes and won't have it any other way. Too risky.

bit

pdubois · September 2001

I purchased the manuals for my OB 2000 2 years ago from Darlene at Quality Subaru. She was very nice and the manuals were cheaper than through the dealer.

Pat.

miksmi · September 2001

Pat, Darlene's dealership had financial trouble earlier in 2001. Has anyone ordered from her recently?

Matt/mreimink: For the 98, I've read good things about Subaru Legacy Automotive Repair Manual : Models Covered : All Legacy Models 1990 Through 1998 by Mike Stubblefield. Factory service manuals (repair) are available from www.subaruparts.com : select Accessories, Search, enter "98 manual". Price: the princely sum of $583.34 . Per site:

Use for both Subaru Outback and Legacy. Yes, the price is $583.34 The only way to get a full set of books is to purchase all of the books from '95 to current.

For the Owner's Manual, go to www.subaru.com, register yourself and vehicle, download the PDF.

..Mike

wrobelc · September 2001

Mike,

My Legacy has about 29k and I thought the owners manual suggested changing the plugs at 30k. Since plugs aren't very expensive, I figured I'd replace them. Look at the placement of the cylinders on the 2.5l engine, it looks like changing plugs is a bit more involved then with other cars I've had. In fact the owner's manual also mentiones this and suggests bringing the car into the dealer for plug replacement. That is why I was hoping to hear from someone who has changed their own plugs.

Chuck

nygreg · September 2001

by same dealer. The second time I told the dealer before the oil change to watch it. Well, overfilled again. Change the oil myself now (with Valvoline and soon Mobil 1 instead of the dealer Havoline). I only put in 4 qts and it was near the F line.

Greg

nygreg · September 2001

got to wax the OB today. :-) Looks very nice! Even took pictures along with pictures of how the deflector is installed. As soon as I get them back I will share (with a little help?).

Greg

evilizard · September 2001

Also be aware that the oil level on that dipstick is not a liner measurement. You add several quarts and it doesn't register, you add the last quart and it goes beyond the full mark.

If you lay down and stick your head under the car you SHOULD be looking directly up at a plastic cover which blocks access to your oil filter. If you are not then it is has come off or the dealer didn't put it back on. Supposedly its to help force air into the engine and improve HP. I don't know if it really makes a difference. The older OB's didn't have them.

mybenje · September 2001

I did test drive both vehicles this weekend. I will have to make a decision soon. I am leaning towards the outback although the LL Bean price
$ 26,600 + Tax and Lic = 29,400 out the door seem a little too much for me. The dealer has Demo LL bean with $12,000 miles for about $ 26500 out the door is that good?
I did also test drive a regular 4 Cylinder outback
I did not notice much difference expect that the LL bean shifts smoother.
The wife likes the highlander for cargo space, for putting in a car seat in and out (new infant).
I did hear the highlander comes with an AWD version or is that a mistake, they mean a 4WD version.

Did anybody went though this dilemma, if yes please shed some light.

Thanks

paisan · September 2001

Looking at the highlander, you should check out the Axiom from Isuzu. Much better drivetrain, similar ride, 10/120K warranty, and cheaper than a Highlander. Also has full-time 4wd (actually it has 2wd mode, 4wd mode for dry, and 4wd lo for deep snow and off-road) I drove the axiom and it drives like a car as well. Worth a looksy.

-mike

kmclean · September 2001

Chuck -

I haven't done the plugs myself, but I recall an earlier post saying that you need to squeeze the rubber boots to release something (an internal clip device) to be able to pull them off. Just grope around a bit and I'm sure you'll find it after a few tries. I also plan to (at least) pull my plugs at 30K to eyeball them (and depending on how tough it is to get them out - perhaps replace them). I've never had "long-term" plugs, but I've read if you leave them in for 60K (or in some cases 100K) that they're tough to get out of the socket. We'll see.

DITY oil changers: watch the gush of oil when you unscrew the plug - it's a darned big hole and really comes out quickly (especially if you've removed the filler cap - which I did the first time, but not any more).

Air filter - changed it (on principle) at 15K on my 2K OB last weekend - piece of cake. And you can take out the rear section of the cleaner housing to do a really nice interior clean-up (it just pops off the intake tube to the left as you face it from the front).

Cheers from the PNW.

Ken M. in baseball heaven (Seattle)

mybenje · September 2001

I did test drive both vehicles this weekend. I will have to make a decision soon. I am leaning towards the outback although the LL Bean price
$ 26,600 + Tax and Lic = 29,400 out the door seem a little too much for me. The dealer has Demo LL bean with $12,000 miles for about $ 26500 out the door is that good?
I did also test drive a regular 4 Cylinder outback
I did not notice much difference expect that the LL bean shifts smoother.
The wife likes the highlander for cargo space, for putting in a car seat in and out (new infant).
I did hear the highlander comes with an AWD version or is that a mistake, they mean a 4WD version.

Did anybody went though this dilemma, if yes please shed some light.

Thanks

margaritafan · September 2001

I'm sort of confused. I have a 2001 OB Wagon and the dealer installed the Subaru hood deflector for me. It came with black rubber things that stuck right to my hood. I don't see any on the actual deflector. Some of the black rubber things have come loose on their own and I've lost about 2 or 3 of them. The deflector doesn't move or make any noise when I drive though. Did my dealership put it on wrong?

wrobelc · September 2001

Ken,

Thanks for the tips. It makes sense that there must be something to squeeze in order to remove the spark plug boots.

The dealer wants $3.40 for NGK plugs and Schucks has the same plugs for $1.90. You gotta like the dealer markups.

Chuck

99gs · September 2001

Margaritafan - I just installed a deflector over the weekend. Here's what comes in the kit: 2 black screws, two black things that go in holes under the hood to put the black screws in, 2 black clips, plastic tape pieces that get taped to the hood to protect the paint. There were some extra clear bumpers in case the ones on the inside of the deflector came off. There are 5 clear bumpers that came already on the inside of the deflector. You shouldn't have back rubber things falling off. If the person at the dealership that was given the job of putting on the deflector hadn't installed one before and had just been going by the instructions enclosed, it could have easily been put on incorrectly. I had the advantage of some posts on this board from Brian and Greg that helped. Jack

viktoria_r · September 2001

What kind of Oil is req-d by h-4 Outback? I looked in manual, but I only found it's supposed to be SAE. Is it 5W30 or 10W30? I am planning to switch to Mobil 1 synthetic after break-in. Also, how many quarts does H-4 take? Thanks!

miksmi · September 2001

H-4 takes 4.2 quarts. Regarding oil viscosity, it depends on average ambient temperature; there's a chart in the owner's manual. Your profile doesn't mention what year and model you have or where you're located, but in the 2000 Owner's Manual, it's in the Maintenance & service chapter, page 11-12.

..Mike

subearu · September 2001

The Subaru OEM acrylic hood deflector has the word SUBARU on the drivers side in white letters. Does yours? If not, you may have an aftermarket one that may be a bit different than ours. Or, the dealer just installs it differently than we did.

Regardless, those rubber bumpons are important to protect the paint and keep the deflector from vibrating a whole lot. If you can, replace those bumpons whenever they fall off.

I'll try to get a pic of my deflector this week for comparison and post it here.

-Brian

sweet_subie · September 2001

1. If you are buying the highlander awd, it would cost you more than LLBean.......frankly highlander v6, with awd is very pricey....29k....you can buy OB vdc for that price......highlander has a vdc(toyota calls it...ASK )...for 33kish price.....

26.5l for llbean with 12k miles....is not bad.....buy it with subaru extended warranty......but subarus last very long.......so this extra 12k miles won't hurt you.

2. Outback drives more like a car but highlander drives more like an suv....though it is car based.

3. Yes, with highlander, you do get a little broader car & more cargo.

4. Outback has enough cargo anyway........

5. don't know about the axiom.....isuzu does not have resale value.......so unless i get 5,000 off msrp.....i would not buy it. But if you are going to keep it forever......then this might be your choice.....esp. because of the warranty.....

paisan · September 2001

Yep forgot to footnote that. Isuzu resale is poor, but longevity is long. So they aren't good to lease, and don't resell well in the first 5 years. My '97 rodeo went 120K miles w/o a single visit to the dealer for anything (even regular maintenance) just oil changes every 3K, and 2 sets of brake pads, and 1 set of tires. Isuzus are known to last 250K+ with only minor repairs and maintanance.

Also year end they usually have good rebates, currently you can get a Trooper LS *loaded w/o leather) for about $25.5-$26.5 +TTL

-mike

kmclean · September 2001

Viktoria -

I think you will find recommendations in the owners manual, however, as a general rule:

5W30 is a good default grade for average temperatures,

for consistently hot weather (daily highs in the upper 90s to lower 100s), 10W30, or even 10W40 would be suitable

for consistently cold weather (nightly lows near zero or below), 5W20 would work well

your plan to go to synthetic (Mobil 1) is a particularly good idea if you live in a cold climate - I've heard that the synthetics work very well a very cold temps.

Hope this helps.

Ken in Seattle (where I use 5W30 year-round)

jmnygaard · September 2001

We had been thinking of getting a midsize sedan, but need a vehicle that can fit a carseat and a large dog. A minivan seems way too big for me, so I started looking at wagons. I went to the Subaru dealer today, but we could not figure out where the child safety seat tether anchors were. The only thing that looked right was if we took off the back seat head rest and tried to anchor it there. The hook was too big, though. These things are supposed to be universal, but our car seat wouldn't hook up. Any advice?

subearu · September 2001

in our Outback, the tether anchors are up on the roof. (inside of course!)

There's 3 of them above each of the seat positions, just a little behind the rear seat back.

-Brian

jmnygaard · September 2001

I'm planning to go back to the dealer this weekend, so I will check it out then.

miksmi · September 2001

I have the same problem in our Legacy GT wagon: the child seat tether's hook latches easily but is difficult to to unlatch from the roof-mounted child seat tether anchor. I depress the movable "spring", align the hook parallel to the roof, and slide rearward. It's very hard to do but I'm getting better at it.

..Mike

subearu · September 2001

Thanks for the advance warning on the unlatching. We're not using our tether anchors just yet - baby bear is only 4 months old.

Do you take the seat in/out often? We currently have an infant carrier base installed in each of our cars and haven't removed them much since installing.

-Brian

ateixeira · September 2001

Last I heard, Darlene could still not order any parts from Subaru. The owner should just declare bankruptcy or sell the dealership.

CU's review was interesting. Keep in mind it got an overall score between "Very Good" and "Excellent". Also, the wholesale price was $1400 or so less than the Passat, never mind that the LL Bean is cheaper and matches the Passat more closely. Top that off with a quicker 0-60 time and 2mpg better gas mileage, along with much better range. Passat may get the nod for handling, but which would you pick for a gravel road up to the ski lodge?

I just got back from the Outer Banks and spent a full day with my Forester on the beach south of Salvo. Took the 4x4 access ramp over a dune and onto the beach, and the Subaru AWD impressed me once again. I have some photos here, check them out.

-juice

jay_24 · September 2001

This past weekend I found out that the torx driver doesn't fit the cross bars on my outback. Pulled it out of the glove box for the first time, opened the plastic bag, and ripped of the subaru sticker/part number. It was too small by a large amount. It nearly matched the torx-15 I had in my toolbox. The black handle even says T-30. Defective wrench/driver I guess.

Anyway, try it before you need it... Anyone else see this?

--jay

sten2 · September 2001

Anyone who is trying to decide if they should buy a Subaru wagon should drive a GT, L and Outback. They all drive very differently. I choose the L because it handled almost as well as the GT, but was considerably less money. The outback suspension is very soft, which is fine if you are really going to spend more time driving off road. But the GT and L handle much better than the Outback when you are on pavement. The steering is much more responsive, making the car much safer in avoiding accidents. The extra few millimeters of clearance really are not worth the handling trade off, unless you plan to do a significant amount of off-roading. Safety is a high priority for me. Subaru pushes the Outback because they have higher margins on it because it doesn't cost anymore to manufacture then the L. When the L only came with a 2.2, then the GT looked more attractive. The 2.5L offers plenty of power, especially with a manual transmission.

kturner1 · September 2001

Glad to hear from another L fan. If you're looking at a Subaru don't overlook it. If you like the Outback, great. But make an informed decision. Some dealers don't emphasize the L's or even Imprezas, except WRXs. I love my L and think that CU should compare it to a Passat.

ateixeira · September 2001

It's more than a few mm, actually. The difference is an inch, or 25.4 mm.

I too am a fan of the bargain of the lineup (Legacy L), and fully intend on recommending one to my lil' sis when she buys her first car.

Right now she wants a Camry, but the L is actually cheaper and of course has AWD.

-juice

miksmi · September 2001

Brian,

We find most car seats a pain to remove and re-install, so we try to leave them in place. My older child is in a booster and he's large enough that we no longer have to fasten the shoulder harness, so it's easy to swap it between cars. The younger one has a car seat in the GT wagon and another in the Civic sedan.

It's a shame the US market has taken so long to develop a safety standard the most precious of all cargo -- children. (Not so elsewhere -- Graham said Australia already has a standard).

..Mike

miksmi · September 2001

Jay,

Mine was a T-30 and I removed the crossbars with it; I think yours is defective. Ask the dealer to replace it.

..Mike

miksmi · September 2001

Sten, Keith: I agree about handling and value. Our first Subaru was a 91 Legacy L wagon FWD 5MT 2.2l engine. Our second is a 00 Legacy GT wagon AWD 5MT 2.5l engine. I wanted the L (value); my wife the GT (for its seat fabric!!). Oops, I said "our" but that really means "my wife's". I'm glad we got the GT because I prefer it's handling over the L (I learned driving can be enjoyable).

I'm glad we have the option of all three models, each with distinct handling, options, and appearance.

..Mike

ateixeira · September 2001

The new LATCH systems are far easier to install and remove. They're just arriving, though. I agree it's a pain to keep reinstalling the old ones.

Lots of places will help you install them. Get help if yours doesn't feel anchored nice and tight. I have been to Fitzgerald in Rockville for a safety check.

-juice

miksmi · September 2001

Here's the answer to a question I had and some reference links.

Is there a difference between ISOFIX and LATCH? No. LATCH (Lower Anchors and Tethers for Children) was formerly called ISOFIX.

SafetyBeltSafe U.S.A. FAQ, glossary
ParentingPlace Car Safety for Children home page
ParentsPlace FAQ
CarPoint sites

After a tedious search on Edmunds, I found this:

Child Safety Seat Primer, Scott Memmer, 2001-04-17

..Mike

grahampeters · September 2001

G'day

Very pleased to hear everyone is back posting although I wonder how our New York Cop friend, who has not posted for a long time, is coping.

The Australian laws on child seats are fairly stringent. There are Australian Design Rules applying to vehicles sold in Australia, defining the parameters for things like Anchorage points. ADR's apply for vehicles from about 1970 and are rigidly enforced. No ADR compliance means the car canot be registered. http://www.dotrs.gov.au/land/VehicleStandards/ADR/adrindx.htm

In addition there are Australian Standards (well actually they are now Australian and New Zealand mutual standards) for child seats http://www.standards.com.au/catalogue/script/Details.asp?DocN=AS575692723708

The first standard on child seats was issued in 1970 and it is illegal to sell such products which do not comply with the Australian Standard.

There is also a high degree of compliance with seatbelt wearing and child seat legislation. I see unrestrained children only infrequently here in Australia and the Police are very rigid on enforcement. Mind you, community opinion also has its effect. It is not unusual for other parents to point out the stupidity of parents failing to protect their child in a car.

The only group where there is poor compliance with seat belt laws is amongst recent immigrants, particularly from third world countries where life is less valued. This is an education things and over time, compliance improves.

Now, the big problem! Fitting child seats and restraints is not fool proof. My boss had a new child, installed the capsule in his Jeep and then, not being too happy with it, asked me (the next youngest family around) to come and check the installation. The seat slid around wildly on the leather seats and was not properly tethered despite him reading the instructions carefully. He is an intelligent, mechanically able forty year old and he had fitted the seat dangerously. I refitted the seat with him, taking about half an hour to get it fully sorted before it matched our requirements and was stable. If an intelligent, very careful man can get it wrong, how would an average or sub average family get by, particularly when harrassed with screaming kids.

In addition, the straps on the seats do loosen over time and must be checked regularly. In particular, the tether strap which passes back to the roof restraint can become loose, removing one axis of the triangular bracing which the restraint systems rely upon.

For our kids, now 8 and 5, we use a harness which forms an H across the kids shoulders and slips over the lap portion of the seat belt. Both the lap and sash portions of the seat belt are fitted snugly across the kids lap and locked with a clip, which provides a stable base, holding the kid's backside into the back of the seat. The Shoulder harness passes over the head and is slipped through the lap belt. The upper harness is then tightened with a pull strap. For the five year old, there is also a booster seat which is actually a high density polysterene foam with a cloth covering.

Notwithstanding the care, we have had a few problems. One kid took to unlatching the buckle himself for some time, always choosing to do it at an inappropriate moment like when on the freeway. Education is very important. The other one was so persuaded of the necessity of seat belts that her teddy bear had to be strapped in as well.

Cheers

Graham

vdchawk · September 2001

Just one important issue on the LATCH system. The LATCH system does not support center mounted seats, it is for outboard seating positions only (in the Outbacks, I do not have manuals for other cars). A properly installed and tethered seat in the center position offers more protection for a child than anything in an outboard seating position. The LATCH system does not offer any additional strength, it is designed to ease the proper installation of the seats. An extremely high percentage of child seats are not installed correctly, there are many communities in the US that have inspection and training programs for child seats your best option is to have your installation inspected or attend a class in proper installation. Check on www.safekids.org to find an inspection near you. There area also a great many support numbers for parents to call for installation advise, but my experience with them was they refer you to the seat or vehicle manufacture to avoid possible liability for misinformation.

I have a LATCH seat, I find that the lower anchor point belts tend to bind when installing because of the sharp angle to the seat crease. I get a much tighter installation by pressing my knee into the seat and tensioning the regular seat belt. I also keep my son's seat permanently installed and have an additional seat for the other car. By not moving the seats around I know they are always properly installed, and the extra money is a small price to pay for his safety. In around 6 months I will be doing the dual seat in each car, and may then use the LATCH lower points.

There is also a device that helps to tension the lower belt attachment. Many safety advocate groups do not recommend this device because it does not require official crash testing. But, I thought the construction of this device seemed heavier than the seatbelt and tether straps on many car seats. The tensioner is called Mighty-Tite and can be found in many baby/child stores.

As for the name I think that LATCH is the US acronym, the system is still called ISOFIX outside the US market.

miksmi · September 2001

Graham, Thanks for the standards links, and for the description of Australian child seats, which sound more substantial than US seats.

Keith, thanks for the insight into LATCH seats.

..Mike

ateixeira · September 2001

Our NYPD friend was not in Manhattan. He was either in the Bronx or Queens, IIRC. I hope he's OK.

-juice

mybenje · September 2001

I have been contemplating to spend the extra 7K on an LL bean to get the 6 cylinder. I can get the Outback H4 for 23K.

I am curious how does the H4 engine perform around town and in mountain driving?
Did anyone make some modifications to increase the horsepower like air filter, exhaust, chip Etc... I would like to get up to the 180 horses range.

Thanks

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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