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Subaru Legacy/Outback

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they get 3 chances, then 3 strikes you're out, but it depends on the state.

    You actually had a broken timing chain, which was rare but not unheard of in the very early production H6.

    Call Subaru's 800 number and ask them to open a case for you. Get the case number and contact Patti at pmickel@subaru.com to make sure you get the red carpet treatment.

    Given this is a known issue I'm sure they have a fix in mind, but if not SoA can provide assistance and get it resolved. I see no reason why they can't, and hopefully from that point on your LL Bean will be trouble free.

    Give them a chance, and help out by taking the steps above so they have all the technical help they can get. I am confident they'll resolve it for you, and you'll have 4 years left on the powertrain warranty.

    This hits close to home because I am considering an LL Bean wagon for my wife. Please keep us posted and let us know if/when they come up with a resolution from you.

    -juice
  • ccampbell4ccampbell4 Member Posts: 60
    I'm sure this has been discussed, but I had trouble finding anything with a search. (Note to host: it would be nice if you could search a specific topic. My search returned results for all kinds of cars) How is everyone with an Outback doing on gas mileage? I am only on my second tank of gas, but my first tank only got 21mpg with half the tank used on the highway. That seems a little thirsty. I've even been trying to drive it easy. I heard people on this board imply that the gas mileage is worse early on. Why is that?
  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    For more feedback, you may also want to copy/paste your message into our Subaru Legacy/Outback problems discussion. In our problems discussion, you'll also find a direct link to Edmunds' Maintenance guide where you you look up manufacturer-recommended service schedules, TSB's (technical service bulletins), and recalls.

    To bzob- To add to ateixeira's notes, here's some Lemon Law information from Edmunds' which you may find helpful. Also, check out the Autopedia link, halfway down the page, which will direct you to State by State Lemon Law information. Btw, one interesting thing I found about the article was information about the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act, a Federal Law that protects buyers of any product that costs more than $25... and "if your vehicle is not considered a lemon in your state, you may have another recourse." Hope this is helpful.

    Revka
    Host
    Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center
  • mikenkmikenk Member Posts: 281
    I average between 21 and 22 with mixed driving; 27 on my one trip on the H6 VDC. It has improved about 1 mpg from my early tanks; I have 8k miles on it now. One thing to remember, the Outback is a pretty heavy car, about 3500 lbs over my prior Vovo 850 wagon and gets about the same mileage.

    Mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Your engine is green and will take a while to break-in completely. It'll only reach peak efficiency at 10-15k miles or so. Mine improved by about 2mpg after the first year.

    -juice
  • bkaiser1bkaiser1 Member Posts: 464
    I've got an 01 Outback wagon (H4/5sp) with 20,000 miles on it. I have never gotten higher than 26 mpg on the highway -- and that was with the roof rack removed and speeds under 75mph. Usually, 24-25 is all I can get on the highway. City mileage is consistently 21-22mpg, and I tend to shift early (below 3000 rpms). I kept expecting the mileage to improve as the engine got broken in, but that never happened. It's been the same all year. I guess it's not too bad, but I expected a 4cyl car to get better mileage than this. Still, it bests most SUV's on the market other than the CRV (my girlfriend's CRV easily gets 26-27mpg in mixed driving). Oh well...gas is cheap. Incidentally, a road trip I took in August revealed how short the range can really be in this car with its 16 gallon tank -- with a full load inside, 2 bikes on the roof and some smaller items in the roof rack, I was averaging about 15-17mpg at 80-95mph from Nevada to Colorado. If you looked close, you could probably have watched the gas gauge sink.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    My H4/5-spd has about 23000 miles on the clock, and I consistently get 23-24 MPG in mixed driving. Best I ever got was about 27MPG on a long trip (car loaded up too), and the mileage has never gone below about 21 MPG.

    It's rare that I get to do enough extended highway driving to have reliable data to pass on. Between traffic jams and family "rest stops", I'm lucky if I can go 100 miles without stopping!

    If I could measure the gas mileage during the 65-75 MPH cruise stretches, I'm sure it would be in the 28 MPG range for the H4, which falls in line with data other people have reported on long trips.

    I got 24 MPG in my new Bean on the first tank of gas, which is pretty impressive considering it is a bigger engine and an auto-trans. I am expecting that to improve as the engine breaks in, and will keep track of the numbers as time goes on.

    Craig
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    image



    First fifteen people in the chat door get a free Swix Knitted Ski Hat from Subaru!


    KarenS
    Host
    Owner's Clubs

  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Leasing is all about, as I learned when taking MBA classes at night, alternative costs and uses of money.

    1) In your example of the cost of ownership of your Forrester, you missed some basics. For instance, you cannot just subtract selling price from purchase price. When you bought it, you paid tax on the full amount, and financed principle & tax at the going rate of maybe 7-8% for 4-5 years. When you sell it early (ie 39 months), you have to look at what you still own the bank, as you paid off interest first, then principle. You may or may not recover some of the sales tax, depending on your State, and the manner in which you sell it. And resale is money back at the end, but was outstanding during the term you used the car. You can not just subtract it unadjusted from the monthly payment. I am not going to take the time to figure it out, but it is way more than the monthly figure you showed, by probably at least $100.

    2) Why do you pay interest in a lease? Take a $25k car with a 60% residual. The base depreciation on a 36 month lease is $277/month. [ (25k x .4)/36 ] But that is not the total cost. The leasing arm (bank, finance division, etc.) bought that vehicle from the mfgr, and has to front the entire cost for 3 years until they collect payments from you, then sell the vehicle to collect the residual. Someone (you) has to pay the interest on all of the cash outstanding for 3 years until the entire transaction is completed. That is the 'money factor' calculation that gets added to the depreciation for the total monthly payment.

    3) There are other benefits, such as gap insurance coverage. With good credit, you can escape the security deposit, and sometimes some of the bank fees are negotiable. No need for a service contract as the vehicle is under warranty. You get a new car - change of taste, budget, needs, added features, improvements in safety - every few years. And as I said in the previous post, I got some of the leases at an incredible bargin when mfgrs wanted to move a particular car, still got the cash back rebates, and on my '97 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport, a deal at the end when they didn't want it back as the auction price was way below my locked in residual.

    If I remember correctly, you work for a bank? Leasing is not as lucrative as it once was, but go ask someone in finance to run the numbers for you. It might change your mind.

    Steve
  • hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    In the almost 2 years I've had my 97 OB, I've only checked the mileage once. Highway trip, 60-65 mph, 28 mpg. 5 spd, 65k miles. I was pleasantly surprised!

    Cheers!
    Paul
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, no interest in my case because I paid cash up front. I did include taxes, too. $5200 plus $960 tax at 5% for the full amount became $6160 (my net cost if I were to sell today) divided by 39 months I've owned it works out to $158 per month.

    To counter point #2, what I'm saying is simply that a lease ought to work like renting an apartment. You do not pay 3 years of rent up front, or interest for it if you cannot pay up front.

    You're saying it's structured to the advantage of the leasing company. My point exactly.

    I work for the World Bank, not really a bank in the traditional sense. I am not at all a banker by trade, though I did study Finance in grad school.

    I'm sure there are plenty of cases where leasing works to one's advantage, but certainly not mine.

    -juice
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I agree with juice on this one, I also paid cash up front, also intend to keep my car until the wheels fall off.

    For me leasing is simply renting a car long term you do not own anything, this statement is probably more about pride than anything, but when I have something I would rather it belongs to me in total rather than a bank or leasing company.

    Now I am sure there are advantages to leasing but I sure as hell do not know what they would be for the average guy. I certainly know that if it is a company vehicle most of the lease can be written off to taxes.

    But on the other hand quite a few garages and body shops that used to lease cars for loaners are getting out it of as being not a good business proposition anymore so what does that tell you.

    Cheers Pat.
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Stinky - I too also get a slight hesitation when stomping on it from a stop. Only happens the one time, then it's gone. I have to floor the gas at a dead stop for it to happen. I have the H4/auto. It feels like a plug misfiring which some have complained about before. When the Champion plugs were changed to NGK or another brand the hesitation was gone.

    Mileage - mine for the first 6 mos (0-10K) was 23.5 mpg in mixed country driving. Haven't had a long highway drive yet to get those numbers.

    OhioGreg - Mine is an auto in Winestone. I prefer a stick but the wife doesn't know how to drive one and I wasn't successful in convincing her to learn.

    Greg
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point, Pat, I tinker with my cars waaaaay too much to return it at the end of a lease. I've customized my Forester with so much stuff I don't have time to list it all.

    Most people keep their cars bone-stock, though.

    -juice
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    If you used cash that you have on hand to purchase a vehicle instead of leasing ot financing, you have to consider the opportunity cost of that money.

    If you put it into a GIC or CD you may have got 6% on that money.

    On an other extreme, if you put $10,000 into Yahoo instead of a car in 1998 and cashed out in March 2000 you would be able to buy several cars. How's that for opportunity lost?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I knew you would say that. :-)

    True, however, consider this:

    Option 1: put my $20 grand into a Subie I'll keep for probably a decade.

    Option 2: lease the Subie and blow the $20 grand on a trip to Vegas! Yeah Bay-bee!

    Option 3: get a 5 year loan to buy the Subie and blow the cash on a European vacation.

    Option 4: your brother finds out you have $20 grand and borrows it. He may pay it back in 2035, who knows.

    Yeah, a financial advisor would have me invest it, but that takes discipline I don't have. Besides, we have investment accounts we're adding to little by little. So basically I put what would have been my monthly payments into the kid's college fund.

    Mind you, all this is my personal situation.

    -juice

    PS I bought the car in August 1998. What if I had plopped $20 grand into a tech stock (the hot investment at the time)? I would have lost my shorts. I'd be driving a Yugo!
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    is what drives all my financial decisions, or at least it should. For a car, it would come down to the issue of whether I want to 1) commit my money to a depreciating vehicle, 2) make an investment, or 3) have the cash to use for other things. So far, I have always opted for #2 or #3. With interest rates so low, it makes sense for me to commit Subaru Credit's money to cover the vehicle, while I put my own money to work. I have always come out ahead that way. Then again, I have never had enough cash on hand to buy a vehicle outright, so it has been the ONLY way to go!

    But seriously, you really have to be careful committing cash to a vehicle. A friend of mine bought an Explorer many years ago, paying cash -- about $32K. I told him it was a mistake, and at the time, Ford had some really low finance rates he should have taken advantage of. But no, he didn't want to pay the $2500 or so in interest that would have accumulated over the life of the loan. So, he sunk his $32K into the Explorer. Two years later, it was worth about $14K. No way he got $18K worth of use out of that car in two years either. Could he have done better by keeping the cash on hand or investing it? You bet.

    In the long run, you will save money by purchasing a vehicle instead of financing, but ONLY if you do NOT consider the earning power of money (ie, compare the vehicle purchase to the same amount of money stuffed in your mattress). If you use someone else's money to cover the car and put your money to work, I think you will always come out ahead in the end.

    As Juice mentioned, this is a personal situation, so my opinions might not make sense for everybody.

    Craig
  • nowakj66nowakj66 Member Posts: 709
    Anyone notice that the front seat passenger foot room on the Subaru Outback is surprisingly limited. I am 6' 4" tall and driver's seat of an LL Bean is fine for me. But take the passengers seat and it is ridiculously cramped for long legs.

    Anyone else notice this?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, Fords drop in value like a rock falling off a cliff. Go price a two year old Windstar, and then a two year old Odyssey.

    Also, if the lease company is smart, and doesn't want to lose money, they'll have to charge you that $18 grand plus interest. Otherwise they are losing money. The payment would be about $800 for 24 months. Ouch.

    My money would be in a bank account earning 3%. Subaru didn't have any special financing for the Forester at the time (it was a hot seller), so my loan would have been 7-8%.

    -juice
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    my OB with cash from a stock option vestment. Unless I can guarantee a return of >7% on the cash I didn't want to add another monthly bill (I have monthly payments on my Sienna). I plan to keep this car for many years and give it to my daughter. Also, you need to consider the type of car you buy along with expected maintenance costs, fuel, insurance, etc. This is the first car I bought outright and during the signing ceremony if felt like something was missing.

    Greg
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    You know what guys you will be a long time dead and having money in the bank will not make a blind bit of difference.

    On the other hand you could blow some money on a vehicle that gives you a lot of enjoyment, I know what option I would take, and it would not be sticking money in the bank for somebody else to pee up against a wall, investing is all very well but it is not the be all and all of it.

    Cheers Pat.
  • 99gs99gs Member Posts: 109
    I break car buying into two parts. Part one is buying a car. Part two is how you buy it. Too often dealers push these two parts together to create logic for financing.

    Part one: If you buy a car you are buying a depreciating asset. That's a done deal. You can't change that. No matter how you purchase the car it will go down in value.

    Part 2: How to pay for it? Any option other than cash is going to cost you more money. That is a given. The economic benefit you give up by putting the money in the car depends on how much risk you are willing to take. You could pay off credit cards and get a 15% guaranteed return, but who is going to make an argument that they would have gotten a net return higher than the cost of money or better than the cash rebate? It's all speculation.
  • badsuvdriverbadsuvdriver Member Posts: 1
    I don't know whether it's just the way AWDs
    with Automatics shift but at times when I come
    to a rolling stop and then nail it to get
    up to traffic speed, the trans seems to shift hard
    with a moderate thump. Anyone else notice this.
    I have @26,000 miles on the OB. No other probs...
    Besides answering here, would appreciate if you CC
    copy of your response to millenifun@aol.com
    Regards, BadSuvDriver
  • ob11ob11 Member Posts: 28
    Craig, Yes I do tend to short shift my vehicles. This is why I enjoy the manual tranny so much. I can shift early because of circumstances that I am driving in. If I have no need for rapid acceleration, or the road grade is such that the car will get up to speed on it's own, I run through the gears quickly with very light acceleration until I'm cruising. But when I need the power, I use it! That why I find it so humorous to be discussing 0-60 & 1/4 times! Drivability is the real issue! Years ago I had one of the first generation Dodge pick-ups with the Cummins diesel. Not much more horse power than the OB (175 I think) but over 400 ft.lbs of torque. That truck could embarrass a lot of today's sport sedans stoplight to stoplight.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yep that is a trait of the subaru ATs. At least on my dad's '97 Legacy, my uncles '97 Outback, and my cousin's '00 Outback, also on my '88 XT6 as well. This hard shift actually helps to protect the torque converter from premature failure because it isn't slipping as much. I wouldn't worry about it.

    -mike
  • outback165outback165 Member Posts: 108
    I have an 01 OB and experience the exact same thing. The service manager at my dealer explained the same thing Mike did. He mentioned the Subarus that actually come in for work (ie over 150K miles!) and are still on the original transmission. Small price to pay, I guess, for a trani that will last as long as we want to keep the car.
  • en5en5 Member Posts: 9
    I've posted a message about my problem with steering wheel vibration on my Legacy L wagon a while back ( see message#3059 ).
    Since then I tried many things like inspection and rebalancing of the tires, rotating them, inspection of suspension/bearings/struts nothing helped, the vibration was still there.
    At the last visit to my dealer one of the technicians suggested that maybe the axles are out of balance, so they replace both of them under
    warranty and it solved the problem.
    The dealer told me that sometimes these axles get out of balance on it's own, I didn't know that because none of my previous cars had problems with this.
    Too bad that it took me almost 7 months and countless visits to tire shops and dealer to finally solve this issue ( I have better things to do ).
    I hope that this info might help somebody in the future having the same problem.
    This whole thing decreased my trust in subaru quality a bit, I hope that this is the end of my problems, the car is only 17 monts old with 19000km on it.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Thanks for the info. My 2000 Outback still has some front-end vibration, even after I replaced the tires (also tried rebalancing and alignment). In fact, it is exactly as you described in your original post -- very inconsistent. I may poke around underneath the car this weekend, looking for anything obvious (ie, undercoating on a shaft or something like that) and then see if I can get the dealer to look at the drive shafts before I pass the car onto my father in a few weeks.

    Craig
  • mrk610mrk610 Member Posts: 378
    I have an my02 otbw 2.5 auto. I get 22-23 all city ,25 mixed ,best highway was 27 not bad for a big 4 cyl with the weight of the outback. I leased my car ,I think I did pretty good . Traded a 96 honda accord owed 5k and got the dealer to give me 7200.00 for it ,but that down on lease and got 200 over invoice . Lease for 4 yrs at 279.00 month and will owe some were around 12,000 at end of lease . So when lease is up car will only be 3yrs old because it is a my 02 ,and with high resale value it should be worth more then I owe .If I bought car the payment would of been about 150.00 higher per month so I am putting that money in a IRA with 6% interest .

    mike k
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I feel a bit bad about getting us started down this path. While I have really enjoyed the interaction and personally think it is a very interesting topic, the Legacy/OB board probably isn't the right forum for two pages of posts on the value of money. If we really want to continue this thread, we should probably move it to a new discussion board entitled 'Lease vs Buy', or maybe to the existing 'Prices Paid' page. Anyone interested, or should we just let it die here?

    Steve
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    As Craig mentioned, sprayed on material such as undercoating or rustproofing can unbalance a drive shaft. The other thing to check is the presence (or now absence) of balancing weights. All new shafts are spun, much like the way tires are balanced. Small weights are tack welded on to achieve balance and prevent oscillation. You may find telltale marks where a weight broke off. It can happen on any vehicle - not necessarily a sign of poor build quality.

    [ there - now that felt better.... A technical response, nothing about money... ;-) ]

    Steve
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Ah, don't worry about it. Wasn't that far off topic if it pertained to purchasing a Subaru, and may be very relevant for some people.

    Craig
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    OK, I thought I would offer a few comparison tidbits between my 2000 OB wagon H4/5-spd and the new 2002 LL Bean. I have been driving the Bean for about 2 weeks, but take the old wagon out 1-2 days a week. That's when I really notice differences between the two.

    1) Seats: The old car's seats are better than the Bean all the way around (ignoring the cloth vs. leather issue, which is personal). They have more bolstering, and feel firmer and more supportive. The Bean seats are kind of flat. Very surprising -- I figured the seats would be more or less the same, or better in the Bean. In addition, the 2000 base wagon seems to have more legroom than the Bean.

    2) Wheels: after comparing the cars side by side, I prefer the base model's spoke design and titanium accents to the Bean's wheels, which are busier and have gold accents. Contemplating a switch . . . . .

    3) Ride/handling: No question, the Bean wins here overall. The car is quieter and smoother than the base model, and is an awesome cruiser. Suspension feels softer and better "planted". The 2000 wagon does feel a little more nimble and tossable, but I think it is due to the fact that it has a 5-spd transmission, which alters the driving dynamic quite a bit.

    4) Engine/Powertrain: tie. The H6 is wonderfully smooth and refined, with a sweet sound. The H4 has a great rumble to it that sounds fun and inviting. I don't normally like autos, but the H6/auto combination is pretty damn good (good enough to win me over). The H4/5-spd combo is pretty awesome too. These are two very different powertrains, but I find them equally compelling. An H6/5-spd combination would blow my socks off. If Subaru came out with one in a wagon, I would ransom the farm for it.

    5) Power/acceleration: I think this is also a tie. The H4/5-spd definitely feels a little peppier, but the Bean makes up for that with some nice thrust. Again, an H6/5-spd would rock.

    6) Interior: except for legroom, the Bean feels bigger inside. I think this is due to the glass moonroofs absent in the base model. Really brightens up the interior. I like the minor improvements Subaru made in 01 and 02, and some of the other features lacking on my 2000 wagon. I do like the upscale look of the Bean interior with the wood and leather. Otherwise, the interiors are pretty much the same in terms of functionality.

    7) Tires: the new Bridestone Potenzas seem to be a huge improvement over the Firestone Wilderness tires on the old car. Quieter, less tread "wiggle", and somewhat firmer (I detect less sidewall roll). Looking at the tread, however, I can tell the Firestones would be better in snow, and probably wet weather too.

    Some gripes: I wish Subaru put roof rail moldings in the rack area on the Bean. I know the moonroofs take up some space, but there's a good 3-4 ft of bare sheetmetal that is waiting to get scratched. I am going to see about adding some moldings up there. I like the auto climate control system about 50% of the time, but find myself fighting or overriding it the other 50% of the time. Overall, I prefer the old manual system on the base wagon.

    Something funny: I noticed the little storage bin (coin tray?) near the driver's left knee in the Bean, and thought it was a nice feature. Only then did I realize that the old wagon had one too!! In the 2 years I drove the old wagon, I had always assumed that was a fuse panel and never opened it!

    Quality issues: the 2000 wagon had warped front rotors, wheels out of balance, and a bad alignment, all of which needed fixing within the first 1000 miles or so. The 2002 Bean has some very minor issues -- the CD player skips more than I think it should (2-3 times during my morning commute; the CD player in the old car never skips), the passenger side kick panel has a small blemish in it, and the rain gutter trim on the driver's side is a bit askew. I am going to give the CD player a few weeks to get its act together, ignore the kick panel blemish, and only deal with the rain gutter trim if it causes problems opening and closing the rear door (the trim projects lower towards the door glass than it should, but so far doesn't seem to be interfering). Near as I can tell, the trim is anchored to the rear quarter window molding, and would require the window to be removed and repositioned for a proper fix. Since the windows are bonded in, this seems like more trouble than it's worth. I will give sanity the edge over OCD in this instance.

    I think thats it, but I'm sure I am forgetting something. I'll add more info as I can think of it.

    Craig
  • en5en5 Member Posts: 9
    Steve: in my case the shafts were clean, no undercoating on them and no missing weights, the dealer told me that there was play in both of them.It is possible that my driveshafts came from a bad batch.
    Craig: maybe this will help you, when I was driving at highway speed ( from 90 - 120km/h )the vibration was only when the road was more less straight, and when following a curve the vibration was going away,
    when the technician heard that, he was almost 100%sure that it was the driveshafts.
  • stinkynelsonstinkynelson Member Posts: 13
    Greg,

    Thank you (!!!) for the suggestion on the plug misfiring. I'll look into that.

    On the mileage note, my '02 OB has about 10K on it and I just got 25.9 MPG on my latest fill up. My driving is 99% highway travel./
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I have a Legacy GT wagon with the twin sunroofs, I added roof strips out of necessity.

    I will try to explain, second day I had the car a large piece of falling ice hit the roof right at the edge of the sunroof and dead centre, I was pretty bummed I don,t mind telling you.

    Anyways I did not want the roof repainted and the paintless dent guys could not do anything, so I decided to camoflage the dent with roof strips, it worked so well that they look like they should have been there all along.

    If you go to your Subaru dealers you can get a kit that was used on the 97 to99 model base outback, they just stick on, you will have to shorten them a bit, alternatively I suppose you could buy a roll of black bodyside moulding about one inch wide and make your own.

    Cheers Pat.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Excellent comparison! I think you're the only one here who has an H4 & H6 Outback. By driving the two, side-by-side, you're really able to pick up on the subtle nuances between the two, that us, who are not so lucky, would likely never notice. Again, excellent job. :)

    Bob
  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    and hopefully that will be the end of your steering wheel vibration. If you have a chance, perhaps you'd also like to share (copy/paste) your message in our Legacy/Outback Wagons - Problems & Solutions discussion. Other participants passing through there may benefit from your information... or have more notes to add. Thanks for your participation. ;-)

    Revka
    Host
    Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
  • sibbaldsibbald Member Posts: 106
    Same as Bob, appreciated the well documented comparison. Thanks, :-)

    Tom
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Pat: I understand your thinking perfectly -- I have covered up many a dent before with various mouldings, trim, etc. I used the roof rack quite a bit on the old wagon, and appreciated the roof strips, so they are a must add for the new car. Thanks for the tip on the Subaru strips -- I will check that out.

    Bob, Tom: glad you found the review useful. I didn't really plan on having the two cars at once, it's just that my parents aren't picking up the old one until they visit for Christmas. I was thinking about it today, though, and realized how cool it was to have two different Outbacks, even if it's temporary. Plus, it confuses the heck out of my neighbors and coworkers, which is fun (both cars are the same color).

    I didn't realize how much I liked the old car until I started driving it only once or twice a week. It's like an old pal. I hope the Bean "wears in" the same way.

    Craig
  • yellowbikedonyellowbikedon Member Posts: 228
    I had a '96 Outback which I ran for just under 50k before trading it in for the LL Bean. Your comparison brought back fond memories, Craig. I had absolutely no problems with the '96 and kind of felt like a "pioneer" with the wagon as it was one of the first delivered to the Chicagoland area.

    I will say that as much as I liked the '96, a year's driving experience (and 11k miles) with the '01 LL Bean convinces me the improvements (such as elimination of the rear shock towers) and the much stronger H6 engine provide for a superior vehicle. As Juice is fond of saying, the addition of content through the years with not much of a price change does have a positive effect. When compared with the marginal cost difference between a Limited and an LL Bean, Subaru has hit the mark!

    My two cents.

    Don
  • david55838david55838 Member Posts: 55
    Does anyone have experience with a late model Camry or Accord? I was considering one of those before I was smitten with the OB. Since I've had it about six weeks,(H4, 5spd) I've been quite impressed with the ride and handling, and wonder if any of you think that the Camry or Accord would be even better in those departments. I feel like I've gotten the best of all worlds - comfort, traction, and utility. Whose got a thought?

    David
  • andyw1andyw1 Member Posts: 8
    Having an enforced deadline (the end of the lease) to replace a car can make the finding of a replacement car a difficult and worrisome chore. It may place you in a bad position for getting the car you want at the best price.

    The number of miles allowed in a lease is also usually quite low and the fee for excess miles quite high.

    If you are planning to keep the car for a long period, leasing seems less attractive.

    Andy
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I can't speak for the Camry, but consider myself somewhat of a Honda follower (even though I have no Hondas at the moment). The Accord is a great car, even though the current generation is in its last year. I drove a friend's new 2001 Accord recently, and thought it had great handling and a nice ride. Typical Honda in my experience -- a bit on the firm side, but very compliant and able to damp the bumps. When pushed hard, the car handles surprisingly like a sports car.

    The Accord handles better than the Outback, but it's not the best comparison due to the Outback's tires and suspension. If you compared a Legacy GT to the Accord, I think it would be a better match, and I'm sure the GT would be on par with the Accord (probably better).

    For the kind of car it is, the Outback handles great. In all other areas, I think the Outback is on par or better than the Accord. I owned Hondas for many years, and was duly impressed when I checked out Subarus for the first time in 2000. They have come a long way. To me, Honda is a pretty universal gold standard for cars (even though some of their models are not the best) and I feel confident placing Subaru in the same category.

    You are correct in noting that the Outback gives you the best of all worlds. I am constantly impressed by the utility, versatility, and enjoyment I get out of the car. It's great for everything from outdoor sports to home projects, and makes a great daily driver. Makes me wonder why people would ever consider an SUV!

    Craig
  • eric102eric102 Member Posts: 122
    I have a 98 Accord and 2002 Outback wagon. I drive them both several times a week and I think the Outback is the better overall vehicle. They are both auto's and I have never really pushed either one to it's limits, but I think the Outback handles better and has a better ride in everyday driving conditions, it also has less road noise. The Honda has 70,000 miles, never had a single problem or defect and even has the original tires with another 10-20,000 left on them, original brakes also (wifes freeway commuter). I hope the Subaru does as well for me, although I don't expect the tires to last that long. Eric
  • ob11ob11 Member Posts: 28
    I went from a 95 Accord to 02 Outback. I enjoyed the Accord. I will miss the Honda's fuel economy, but I won't miss the winter traction. I also liked the way the Accord's 5 speed shifted compared to the Subaru. But when I need to do anything that requires cargo space (try getting a small appliance box, TV, computer monitor, leaf blower, etc. in the Accord) I just smile when I lift the rear gate. The Outback is just so much more real-world useful!
  • david55838david55838 Member Posts: 55
    Thanks everyone for the input. It just confirms that I've made the right decision. I guess I'd sum up the driving experience as downright pleasant - comfortable and confidence inspiring.

    Forgot to mention, on the utility side, I went out and bought a 32" TV for Christmas, and when they brought around the box, I thought no way was it fitting in the OB, but sure enough - it slipped right in, and the tailgate closed with no problem.

    At this point, I say 'Bring on the snow!'

    Happy holidays,
    David
  • ohiogregohiogreg Member Posts: 7
    After 2 months of researching and test driving Subarus, I put down a deposit on a 2002 CRV EX yesterday (Clover Green with Saddle interior). It's a fairly involved story that got me to that decision, but here's a synopsis.

    Started off wanting the Impreza WRX Wagon. Test drove it and I can tell you that everything you have read about it is true. Handles and accelerates like a Formula 1 car. The back seat room was the deal breaker for this car. My 9 year old son barely had enough room.

    Went to the LLBean Outback. Again the driving experience was wonderful. However, I am 6'3" and my head was bumping the headliner because Subaru doesn't sell them without a moonroof. If Subaru offered this model without a moonroof, I would be driving one today even with the price differential between it and the CRV.

    As a last ditch effort, I test drove a 4 cylinder Outback without a moonroof on Friday. Again the feeling of not "fitting" in this car. The roofline comes down so far that it felt like I was ducking to see out of the windshield. The attempt to change over from 4 Hondas in a row was officially over.

    Visited a local Honda dealer and sat in a green LX and a black EX. What a difference in interior space between the CRV and the Subaru family. The Subies felt claustrophobic, while the Hondas feel open and airy.

    The best they would do was $200 under MSRP and a 10% reduction on options. So, I called the dealer where we purchased our last three Hondas, including my wife's 97 CRV. He quoted me $600 under MSRP because we were repeat customers. I tried to get him down some more when I stopped in to sign papers. They won't budge because of demand. No production date yet so it may be until early February. Just hope my 1990 Accord can make it that long.

    BTW, chose Green with Saddle interior over Silver with Black interior. I don't find the plastic color (caramel?) offensive at all and the fabric on the EX is acceptable, IMO. Thought the black interior plastic would be a dust and heat magnet. Plus I've always wanted this combination of colors. Kind of like British Racing Green.
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    My previous ride was a full size Chevy Z71. Coming down to the Outback, I thought that it'd be underpowered and cramped. Haven't doubted our decision to get the OB - we love it.

    Enjoy your CRV.

    -Brian
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    If headroom was the limiting factor in the Outbacks, why didn't you take a look at the Forester? Granted its rear seat room is also limited, but you wouldn't have known had you not tried.

    Ed
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