Subaru Legacy/Outback

otis123 · January 2002

It is a small world..."six degrees of separation"... I live in Yorktown too and travel TSP north on a regular basis (but work down in White Plains - for an engineering firm - I'm not an engineer, but my father was an IBM engineer for 35 yrs.). Anyway, I have an H6 Bean that I had Curry Subaru allign (for free) at 1200 miles. It fixed the pull and is still alligned (as far as I can tell) at 17,000 miles. Car has been great, but something weird happened Monday...

I was traveling north on TSP through Putnam. The parkway had just been heavily salted with big chunks of rock salt (sounded like little stone pebbles hitting the windshield @ 70mph). Once I got off the parkway in Dutchess, my brakes stuck every time I came to a complete stop. I mean stuck! If I kept the wheels moving a little (inches) at a red light they didn't stick - once I stopped completely they became stuck.

Anyway, I got to my destination (~10 miles) and when I started up again after a couple hours it was gone. I figure it was the heavy salt, but I never had that happen with any other car. (I'm also VERY sensitive about these brakes. I had them re-surfaced at 10K miles (again, for free) because of warping.) They don't seem to like being asked to stop a 3700+lb. car going 80 mph off an exit ramp on a regular basis... :-o

I must slow down, but I like plowing around in my little black tank...

:-)

Ralph

oclvframe · January 2002

Thanks...will do.

oclvframe · January 2002

Ralph,

I don't know what to tell you about the sticking brakes...that is weird.

As for the warped rotors. I had my dealer replace them under warranty and I suggest you do the same. Once rotors are cut down they are more prone to warping. I wouldn't worry so much about the affect of the salt on them (except of course if you lock up and keep moving). I would be more worried about what caused them to warp in the first place. Normally that is caused by running supper hot rotors through a cold puddle of water, but more commonly it can be caused by a wheel that is over torqued. My Honda was, and my Bean apparantly is, very sensitive to the torque of the wheel nuts. The correct torque is 70ftlbs. If the machanics use the air wrench to seat the nuts and then use a torque wrench to verify, by then the nuts are way tighter than the need to be. I insist they hand tighten the nuts before using the torque wrench.

Bottom line is, the rotors are covered for 36000mi. Get the rotors replaced so you don't have to deal with them again. They should replace rotors and pads at the same time.

-r

ateixeira · January 2002

Ralph: you may have glazed pads. This happened to me in my Escort. The pads were worn so I just replaced them, but if they're new you can have them scuffed.

-juice

nygreg · January 2002

the "Twilight Zone". Steve, Lyn, Ralph this is really getting interesting. Steve - you called it again, I work for AMAT. Mostly CVD (High temp, HDP, SA, etc.) When working with IBM I did e-beam evap, sputtering (PVD), RIE and some Ion beam. I spend most of my time in B650 (ASTC) and soon B323 (300mm). Cool! Anyway, depending on my mood, I will come across Rt 6N to the Taconic or take Miller Hill or 52. My choice. I have also been getting the sticky brake syndrom. Not worried about it. My front rotors were replaced when the car was new due to a warped rotor (overtorqued wheel?). And..my brother's name is Ralph. Ahhhhh! Sounds like we need a Subaru lunch party, then meet the rest at the auto show in March.

Greg

fibber2 · January 2002

Greg, I will have to search the 650 lot for your OB!!!! Call me..

I 'made contact' with Lyn earlier this evening. Just went to 'callup' on VM, typed in Lyn / Subaru / Postmodern, and she popped right up!!! Well not really, but it makes for a good story.

Ralph, sorry to hear about your father. I bet he is much happier now that he is out.... (only kidding). It is really a decent place to work.

We should post on 'Meet the Members' and see who else is out there. Must be a bunch of Subaru owner up in BVT.

Steve

pondview · January 2002

Hi all,

I am currently on my second rodeo with a lease that ends soon. I'm contemplating going with an Outback LLBean...I have not test drove yet. There is no particular reason why I might not get another Rodeo, I've had no problems over the past 6 years with 2 different vehicles.

My question is, what are your opinions on what I would gain or lose going with the Outback. We are a family of 4(2 kids 7,5). I live in RI, and Winter's have been mild the last few years, and I don't need the off road capabilities of a 4WD. I do like sitting up high and was wondering how high you are up in the outback(similiar to rodeo?) Also, any financing deals, rebates, or lease deals going on?

Thanks

paisan · January 2002

Well having owned a rodeo, own a trooper, and have 2 outbacks in my family I can probably answer some questions for you...

If you want to stay in the Isuzu family, I'd go with the Axiom, because it has full-time AWD which is better for on-road situations than the PT system of the Rodeo.

The ride in the H6 outback will be superior to the Rodeo for sure, much more car like and handling will be improved as well.

Cargo capacity will drop significantly, especially with the rear sloped window of the outback. Height will also drop way down. Gas milage will jump up even with the H6 over the rodeo. Warranty will drop (3/36 and 5/60 v. 3/50 and 10/120). Lease deals will be better than Isuzus. Financing will be significantly worse since Isuzu has lots of incentives and 0% financing often.

I'd personally go with an Axiom, only because of the space/towing/height issues. If gas and handling are more your cup of tea then go with the subie. They are both pretty bulletproff vehicles as far as reliability and I'd give the "hardiness" a slight advantage to the framed isuzus.

-mike

rsholland · January 2002

It's a car vs. a truck, plain and simple. If you don't need the off-road capability or extra towing capability that the Rodeo offers, for me the answer is a no-brainer: The LL Bean.

You get full-time 4WD (AWD) which is excellent year-roundrain, snow, gravel, dry roads; and the excellent on-road ride and handling of a good sport sedan (or wagon).

No, you don't sit up as high as you do in a traditional SUV.

Bob

nygreg · January 2002

I'll call you next week. Maybe we can arrange lunch. Lyn - you up for lunch?

Greg

ccampbell4 · January 2002

Does anyone know why my OB shocks the crud out of me every time I get out and touch the door?

bkaiser1 · January 2002

For years, I have been told that the build up of static electricity is tied to the rubber compound in the tires -- some tires are worse than others.

The OEM Michelin MXV4's on my 91 Accord were notoriously bad (I believe there might even have been a recall in the early 90's regarding this?). My 99 Civic also shocked the hell out of me every time I got out until I switched the OEM Firestones for from Potenza RE910's, which seemed to decrease the charge.

My 01 Outback has shocked me a few times, but not too bad.

goosegog · January 2002

Mine does that too. I hate it; it really hurts sometimes.

It must be something to do with the cloth seats and the friction between one's bum and the seat as one gets out. Either there is more twisting/sliding about because of the height of the seat from the ground or the nature of the fabric itself is contributing to this. The only time it doesn't happen is now, during the winter monsoons, when the humidity is about 95%.

Some of my previous cars had cloth and some had vinyl. Both my daughters' cars have cloth. They are/were 10 years old or more. But none of them shocked me.

I wonder if leather seats are better in this regard.

subearu · January 2002

is to place your hand on a metal part of the body before you place your foot on the ground. Hold the hand to the metal until you are out of the car.

You can also hold the keys in your hand and touch the metal with your key - the key gets the shock, not you.

AFAIK, it's related to the tires. My Z71 did it a lot more than our '00 Outback does. Some of those shocks can hurt!

-Brian

postmodern · January 2002

Steve, Greg,

Lunch is a great idea! Any day should be ok except Monday. Where do you park for B/650? The only Winestone OB I've seen in the East lot is a sedan equiped with spoiler.

-Lyn

tidester · January 2002

subearu,

That will work!

People may also try one of those antistatic sprays for clothing. Spraying your clothing with it or, possibly, the seats should eliminate the shocking behavior! :-)

tidester
Host
SUVs

paisan · January 2002

What about those rubber strips from the 70s and 80s that had a little reflector? People would hang them in the back of their car and they would rub the ground? I can remember them on big ole chevys and caddys!

-mike

grahampeters · January 2002

G'day

I fear it has far less romance than the woderful suggestions about tyres etc. IT usually has to do with the charge built up between different materials, particularly woollen and synthetic fabrics, during dry air conditions. It tends to be more obvious during su-zero conditions where most of the moisture has frozen out of the air.

It is much more common in cars with fabric seats (my Merc was lethal for it) or synthetic carpets.

One partial fix is to grab a used sheet of Bounce and rub it over the fabric. The primary function of fabric conditioners like Bounce is to take the static out of things.

Cheers

Graham

ateixeira · January 2002

My Escort would zap me so bad I became afraid of it. My Forester does it but much less so. My Miata has leather and does not do it at all, so maybe that is a benefit of having leather.

Rodeo vs. LL Bean: if you plan to lease again, the warranty won't be much of an issue. The Rodeo will probably cost less, but price out and drive both, and then pick the one that feels right to you. The LL Bean may have lower operating costs (fuel and insurance) that offset the higher lease payment, I'm not really sure.

Troopers are being discounted to a point that their price is lower than the Axioms and close to the Rodeo, so also consider that for the extra room you may desire with those kids. Like paisan said, I'd pick full-time TOD over part-time 4WD any day.

-juice

canoeist · January 2002

I purchased a LL Bean Outback wagon at the end of the year, and have put about 900 miles on it. I want to thank everyone on this board, your discussions helped me in my decision to buy the Subaru (my first). I was car shopping for about three months (my wife was getting pretty tired of the car dealers), before I decided on the Outback. I was real close to buying a Pathfinder (look and feel of a Jeep, but more reliable) when I realized I didn't need to climb mountains, just get around in Ohio winters and carry my canoe down dirt trails to the rivers. Better gas milage played into the dicision to go with the Outback as well. After 7 years driving a Grand Cherokee, I'm enjoying the nice ride of the Outback. The only problem I have encountered so far is in closing the back hatch. The indicator on the dash shows the hatch is still open when I close it, unless I open a side door first. Does this speak to the air tightness of the car, or a sensor that needs ajustment?

ateixeira · January 2002

The striker plate can be adjusted fore/aft.

My Forester has the same problem, but usually it's because the rubber cargo area protector slides back and sort of interferes.

-juice

idahodoug · January 2002

Just realized you'll also need to pull the temp selector lever off as well before tugging the vent holes to remove the upper trim panel. It just pulls straight off - no biggie.

On reinstall, I had a bit of trouble putting the upper trim panel in. Didn't seem to want to snap back in and after several attempts it went in easy. I wished I'd paid very close attention to exactly what the trim panel alignment at it's top edge was - you should. I think the resistance was the vent tube not aligning correctly into the dash tubes.

canoeist · January 2002

Thanks ateixeira. I checked the cargo mat, but it is okay. I'll ask the dealer to check the striker plates when I take it in for the 3,000 mile oil change.

mdisaacs · January 2002

With my old Chevy Celebrity I got into the habit of brushing my knuckle(s) against the door frame while getting out of the car. I found my knuckle far less sensitive to the shock. I agree with Juice, it was so bad in the winter I would cringe reaching to close the door. My Outback has quite a kick also. I find myself closing the door with the lower edge of the window.
-Mike

stever · January 2002

Nice handle - wish I had thought of it :-). What racks did you decide on?

Steve
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popgun · January 2002

Hi Canoeist.... neat handel.... I have experienced the same problem with my back hatch but I find that the rubber mat needs to be pushed foward every now and then. Try that again before you get an adjustment. It may be the carpet inderneath works against the rubber, causeing it to creep back. Congratulations on your Outback.

grahampeters · January 2002

G'day

If it is the mat, try putting Velcro under it, secured on the centre lift-up section, to keep it in place

Cheers

Graham

c_hunter · January 2002

Welcome to the club! Quite a few of us with Subarus and canoes or kayaks.

Re: the hatch: my new Bean and my older Outback (now my Dad's) are the same way -- the hatch can shut and latch but still be open. I also found that it was usually due to the rubber mat getting in the way. The mat doesn't have to be very far back for it to interfere with the hatch -- it sticks up enough to block the interior panel, which in turn keeps the hatch from completely closing.

A few other times, I noticed that my wife hadn't closed the hatch hard enough, and the light stayed on. Otherwise, you couldn't tell. If none of that works, the dealer can easily adjust it for you.

Craig

paisan · January 2002

Insurance will be higher on the subie than the Isuzu. Heck my buddy has a loaded 2001 Trooper LS and his insurance in the NY area increased by $200/yr from his '95 Mazda 626. I think it is because they are such rarely stolen that they are so low to insure. Leasing an Isuzu will be high $ cause they have poor residual values. They are best if kept for 5-10 years and driven for 200K miles.

-mike

fibber2 · January 2002

Busy weekend. First time I have had to check the board since Friday. This Tuesday I have a supplier visit that will probably include lunch. Otherwise, 11:30 - 1:00 is open.

Steve

fibber2 · January 2002

I think you hit the answer when my mentioned cracking a window. The hatch on my '02 OBW is also guaranteed to close properly on the first try if a door is open. Otherwise maybe 30% of the time it seems closed, but the dash warning light suddenly comes on. I would say that it is a well sealed car and the backpressure must be overcome with extra force. You could get the striker moved slightly, but I like the tight fit.

Steve

david55838 · January 2002

Glad to know I'm not the only one having to slam the hatch 2-3 times to get it to close properly. If the mat doesn't seem to be getting in the way, how hard do you think it is for the DYIer to adjust the striker? Would you recommend leaving it for the dealer?

Thanks,
David

paisan · January 2002

When the door seal starts leaking!

In all seriousness these cars are sealed pretty well and like fibber2 said above I rather have a tightly sealed door than a leaky one.

-mike

eric102 · January 2002

I've never had to slam my hatch on my 02 OBW, it always closes on the first try with what I would call normal effort. Never had the dash light go on either. It sounds like some of you need to get the striker plate adjusted.

Eric

ateixeira · January 2002

I've taken a peek, and the striker seems easy to adjust, except it's behind two plastic trim pieces on my Forester. I hate wind noises so I'll just slam it.

-juice

eric102 · January 2002

I wonder if years of slamming will take its toll on the hatch or the wiper parts?

dbohmer · January 2002

I currently own a 2000 Subaru Legacy Outback. I need to tow a Coleman popup camper that is right around 2000 lbs (empty). The towing capacity for my Subaru is at 2000. I am really hesitant to put a hitch on it for fear it won't be able to handle it. Why is the towing capacity so low, even on the newer H6-3.0 3.0L Subaru? The 3.0 L Ford Escape with less HP advertises 3,500 lbs. What is THE determining factor in the tow rating?

paisan · January 2002

Engine, Brakes, Chassis. Most important is the chassis, 2nd is the brakes, 3rd is the engine. Most engines can handle towing even the H4 can probabably tow well. The Wheelbase and chassis are probably the limiting factor as well as risk-benefit analysis by the manufacturer, subaru is traditionally more conservative than ford (can we say low psi in the explorer tires) I'd say a 2000lb trailer + gear would not be an issue on an H6 Outback.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2002

Just lower the hatch, and push it in while you close it. It actually doesn't require lots of physical force.

There are some towing topics here in the Town Hall where trailer brakes (add-on kits) are discussed. With those you ought to be fine.

-juice

c_hunter · January 2002

Don't forget the transmission -- it's usually the first thing that will overheat or fail when towing something too heavy. On 5-spd cars, it's an issue of whether or not the clutch can handle starts. On auto cars, it's an issue of the transmission fluid overheating. This is especially problematic when towing in hilly areas and/or in hot weather.

Craig

paisan · January 2002

This is true too, but generally the trannies in the subies are pretty strong, and a simple tranny cooler can overcome that problem.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2002

I found it interesting that the auto tranny models get an engine oil cooler that the manuals do not, and also that it's for engine oil rather than tranny oil.

I bet the auto is better suited for towing.

-juice

aps5 · January 2002

Got the LL Bean this weekend, and we are very impressed. First question: on the auto climate control, is there a way to cycle through "mode" that doesn't turn on the ac as you choose the mode?
That is, can the ac be turned off during manual mode. It seems that the ac turns on briefly when choosing the mode, which can't be good.

Also, we want to tint the rear windows, and I wonder if window tinting may affect the frameless window seal..... Anyone have experience with this?

And, anyone have the Bridgestone Potenza's in snow?
We use Nokian Hakkapaliita's for snow usually, and they are the best. If the stock tires are ok, I would love to save $500.

Thanks....

ateixeira · January 2002

I tinted all 4 windows that open on my Forester, and it has not had any adverse effect on window seal. My 1300psi pressure washer does not cause them to leak.

-juice

fibber2 · January 2002

We had a nasty snow and ice storm here in the NE a week ago, and we did about 150 miles of driving in the thick of it. The RE-92's on our '02 OBW did OK, but then again they only have 3k miles on them. Beth and I agreed that they would probably be suitable for this year, but plan on investing in a dedicated set of snows on rims for next winter.

Steve

c_hunter · January 2002

The climate control system has many hidden features, and the owner's manual is not very good at explaining them. I'll tell you what I have been able to decipher thus far.

If you start off in full auto mode, the temperature is the only setting you can change without forcing it into semi-auto. Once you hit the AC, fan speed, or vent mode button, the system gives you manual control over that particular mode, but maintains auto on all the other settings (hence my semi-auto label). As you fiddle with more settings, the system relinquishes its auto control. If you twiddle with all the settings, the system will finally go into full manual mode.

I usually turn on the system by hitting "auto" once or twice (2 times puts you in econ mode which cycles the AC compressor less). If the AC light comes on (depending on the ambient temp) and it's cold and dry outside, I immediately hit the AC button to turn it off. Then, the system will have auto control over the mode and fan speed (to maintain the desired temp you set) without the AC running (again, not an issue in cold weather).

I usually end up setting the fan speed and mode manually, so the only thing the climate control system does is try to maintain the temp I set.

One other thing -- though it is not documented, you can put the system in a fan-off ventilation mode by hitting the OFF button, and then selecting a vent mode. You can also change to fresh or re-circ in the ventilation mode. Whatever temp setting was dialed in before you hit OFF will govern how much the vent air is heated. If you just want a cold vent, turn the temp down to 65 before hitting OFF.

Craig

paisan · January 2002

Craig's operation of the system is similar to the one on my trooper except I have a recirc. button that is used for the outside air and when in recirc the A/C doesn't cycle. Also mine are analog guages but same electronic concept behind it.

-mike

goosegog · January 2002

I tow a small popup tent trailer with my 00 OB H4 5 spd. It is not 2000lbs, more like 1300 or so including the stuff we toss inside it. Power is adequate, even on 10,000 ft passes and handling is superb. Braking is OK too despite no brakes on the trailer.

Having towed about 8,000 km so far, my opinion is that the weak spot for towing is probably the clutch. Hill starts or slow speed manouvering such as backing up an incline with the necessary deliberate clutch slip can make the clutch smell mightily. Others have complained about this.

I have driven dozens of standards since 1964 and have much experience of juddering, slipping, falling-apart clutches, but have never experienced that burning clutch smell unless dishing out extreme abuse of the most foolhardy kind. The OB seems to do it quite easily.

paisan · January 2002

Generally ATs are preferred for towing as far as I know. That could be one reason they are preferred?

-mike

c_hunter · January 2002

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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