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Subaru Legacy/Outback

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    kmcleankmclean Member Posts: 173
    Jim -

    Actually, bought the first air filters on-line from a place in Tacoma - think they were around $14 each with tax/shipping.

    Yes, Washington does have a sales tax (does it ever!). Varies by county - here in King County (where Seattle is located) it's 8.8%! Of course, no income tax (yet!).

    Ken in Seattle
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    jfljfl Member Posts: 1,396
    Ken,

    Even at $14 it's better than what I was charged at my 15k dealer service...$21!

    In CA, we have 8+% sales tax AND income tax.

    Jim
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    bravadajonbravadajon Member Posts: 60
    As a former dissatisfied 02 Bravada owner, I still post at the "triplet" town hall (TrailBlazer, Oldsmobile, Envoy).
    There is always curiosity about my 03 LL Bean Wagon. The most recent discussion involves the room for dogs in the back: see post #8525 and up if curious.
    There are some real horror stories about the triplets at this site. I guess I should not rub in how nice the Subie is.....
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    idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    The '98+ Cruisers are an amazingly well sorted vehicle for every day use. They feel far more powerful and nimble than the 93-97. And that's saying a lot since I've had 2 new SUVs since buying our 93 that have not been as well mannered on the road. Of course offroad is where the 93-97 'mighty 80' shines, but frankly I don't think you'd be missing much with the newer model offroad. Yes, the 80 will kick its butt, but only when you're on the kind of stuff which few venture into without a purpose built bashable rig. I wouldn't swap, but OTOH I'm a nutcase.

    Just be careful, the 80 is addictive. I yapped about mine so much over the last 9 years that my brother went out looking for a '97 80 series in May. Found one and loved it. A few months later, he swapped out the family car also, and now the only choice he and his wife have each morning is "what color do you want to drive today?"

    IdahoDoug
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    jay_24jay_24 Member Posts: 536
    Can you summerize thr triplet problems? I've been in that board and know some of them... I was actually thinking of buying one since kid #3 is a couple weeks away. It would be to replace a minivan and not my subie... I need room for 3 car seets/boosters and towing capacity. Stinkin' minivan allready only gets 18-20mpg...

    Maybe you can post over in the "Meet the members" or "Cafe" boards of subaru crew since this off topic for subies...

    --jay
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    xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    Since I am still Subie less and believe me it isnt easy deciding, once of the things I'd like to know is the amount of space behind the front seats with the rear seats folded down.

    I'm thinking sleeping bags in the car, moonroof open and camping out in a state park. There's only so much "roughing it" I can take. :)

    CR lists 67.5" for both the Forester and Outback, but that doesnt seem right since the Outback is a longer car.

    Also, only the Forester XS series comes with the automatic climate control? It's not available in the Outback's at all?

    Thanks,

    - Lou
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    bravadajonbravadajon Member Posts: 60
    I would post as you suggested, but I am not sure how to get there.

    The 02 Bravada was stylish, but the electrical and mechanical components of the vehicle were bad. The inline 6 engine had great power and zip.

    Problems:

    Check engine light off and on then solid on: to dealer -fixed

    Driver side door clunks when going over bumps: to dealer, not fixed. (Motor Trend also reported this problem in their vehicle test)

    Memory mirrors don't remember positions: to dealer- the component to fix it not avaliable yet

    Heated/memory seats go out: to dealer-fixed; driver seat adjustment still goes out off and on for some unexplained reason.

    Excesive wind noise from mirrors: bad design....

    Gas mileage 15-16 mpg city.

    SmartTrak starts binding up on sharp turns (parking garage at work) around 15K miles.

    On really tight turns the thing goes "bang" from the front end for some reason.

    "Jet Engine" fan noise on occasion; this is considered normal.

    When parking on a slight incline, after placing in park and setting the parking brake, the vehicle moves forward about 4 inches.

    At one year old and at 17K I sold the Bravada; paid $35,000 new and got $23,400 on trade. What a hit!!!

    I am single. If I had babies, I would not get a SUV. Too rolloverish, but you don't have too many choices nowadays other than the minivan. The Envoy XLT is roomy and stylish, but make sure to get a recent built one so you don't experience the early version production problems. I assume GM is fixing the problems....maybe not....beware. How about a two Subaru family...you drive one..the wife drives the other
    (new one).
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    bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    the issues that are going on at the triplets board is horrendous... I was looking into the Envoy and TB but the issues are scaring me... too many to list. Though these are for '02's and older models and most likely the '03's have the bugs cleared out. But I would be skeptical to step into one of these yet. Another thing is that people are not getting the MPG as they hoped, even the ones that GM claim to get...

    Looking at Subaru again ;-)
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    tompaine01tompaine01 Member Posts: 3
    Hi, folks --

    I purchased a basic Outback '02 Wagon at the beginning of this year. It now has about 9900 miles on it, and I have changed the oil and oil filter twice, in accordance with the maintenance schedule.

    When I first started driving this car everyone complimented me on how quietly it ran. Of late, I have noticed that, when I have started it up in the morning, the engine runs rather loudly and I hear a clanking sound which is prominent when I take the engine above idle. The engine seems to quiet down after I drive around for a while and the car seems otherwise to be running ok.

    I have also noticed that this noise issue did not seem to come up until recently. It's getting cold now here in Colorado and I keep the car outside at night.

    Someone suggested I take it to the dealer. But before I go there I was wondering whether anyone has encountered this issue as well. Right now it seems to be benign, but if it is a signal for things to come I wanted to address it sooner rather than later.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated. Many thanks.

    Tom
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    cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    cold Sube engines are notorious for this, if it goes away after warming up its "normal" and nothing to be concerned about, if it doesn't it could be a real problem.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    I agree it could be piston slap. My '98 had piston slap and your symptoms sound like mine did. I disagree with cptplt however. It may be a widespread issue but to call it normal is wrong. If all engines don't do it, yours shouldn't either.

    I had my shortblock replaced at about 53K because of it. I would recommend popping the hood when it is cold next time and listen to the engine rev while standing next to the engine compartment. I was astounded as to how loud mine was. It was obvious there was something wrong. It sounded like I was beating on the engine with a hammer. It is hard to tell from inside the car how bad the noise is. If yours sounds OK with the hood open I would probably wait to see if it gets worse next year. I would still take it to a dealer to start the documentation process.

    My case was actually kind of funny, after the fact at least. When I brought mine in the service advisor gave me a Subaru document saying that the sound was normal, blah, blah, blah. He was polite and so was I. I mentioned that I knew from discussion groups that Subaru was replacing short blocks. He denied ever replacing one. I informed him that off the record his own techs had said they had replaced them. He then reiterated that they hadn't in the years he had been there. I basically said "fine, but let's at least have a tech listen to it so I can start documenting my concerns." A tech comes out with me, starts the car, pops the hood, rev's the engine, and clank, clank, clank, as the engine slows down. He states something to the effect "that doesn't sound good." Get's another tech. Five minutes later the service advisor is writing up a work order to replace the short block. The truly funny part? They had short blocks in inventory!! I found that rather odd since they had never replaced one previously. Yeah, right.

    Good luck.
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    the timing clatter in cold weather start-ups with the piston slap problem on Phase I ej25 engines. The 1st issue is indeed normal; the second issue is not, but the Phase I shortblocks went away in 2000 so it is a non-issue for tompaine.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    If you are correct that is good news. I didn't know if it was in issue on the new design or not. There were certainly enough of us with the issue on the Phase I engine.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CR lists the length of the biggest box. The Legacy's rear window slopes down a lot, so it loses some length there. But your feet could fit into that space, so for your idea of camping with the moonroof open, the Legacy would have more room.

    Tom: consider a block heater. Pat had one installed and said there were a blessing in frigid temps.

    Valves will clatter until the oil circulates. It takes about 7 seconds to establish oil pressure, but if the oil is cold and thick it'll take even longer to quiet those valves. If it's a problem for you more so than usual, I'd go with a better flowing synthetic oil. My Miata does it, FWIW.

    -juice
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    vincet1vincet1 Member Posts: 3
    CReports claimed gear whine in its Outback review. My 2003 Bean has it; not a problem to my ears.

    They also reported problems with the heated seats. Exactamente. The passenger seat is no-heat.

    The dealer is an hour away. Any simple solution to the no-heat situation? Terminal not connected at the switch? How do the switches come out of the console?

    Thanks,
    Vince
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    bravadajonbravadajon Member Posts: 60
    My O3 LL Bean Wagon auto tranny also "whines" as the rpms rev up...I would say rather a nice humming sound....does not annoy me either. If it were not for this sound I would have no idea how fast I was accelerating. The 3.0L engine is perfectly quiet.
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    otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    Greg,

    Looks like some substantial snow tonight/tomorrow for NYC and its northern suburbs. I've waited over a year to get your report of the Dunlops in snow. I'm almost ready (33K) to replace my original Firestones - centers are fine but the edges are worn into the indicators.

    So, please tell your boss you'll be in a little late tomorrow morning, find a nice empty parking lot, and let'er rip! :-o

    Thanks! BTW, are they quiet on dry pavement compared to the Firestones?

    Thanks,

    Ralph
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    xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    According to MSN Carpoint, the base outback comes with standard side air bags for MY03.


    http://autos.msn.com/vip/safety.aspx?modelid=10519&src=vip


    I thought only the LTD, Bean and VDC models came with the side air bags.


    Parked next to a beautiful gleeming seamist green beaner this evening. Luckily, it was upwind and spared drool marks. :)


    Lou - Champagne Taste, Carling Black Label Budget

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    mjmille7mjmille7 Member Posts: 10
    Yep, I am promised new parts for my clutch ('02 Outback Base)....will see if it helps, thought won't know for another 2 weeks. I guess they are out of the parts needed in my region, and the local dealer has to get them from "some other" region. All it took was some persistence at the dealer, and a call to SOA. Now if only they can get some consistent heat out of my seats, and maybe an extra inch of leg room!

    Learned something today talking to the local service manager. My local dealer pays the techs by the job not the hour! Guess that's why most of my complaints go into the "no problems found" categorgy....hmmmm.

    Will let you know if the new parts help with the shuddering..... any word from Wisconsin on this?
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    barcbarc Member Posts: 15
    I have an 02 Legacy which is quite noisy in the morning. Once it warms up after a few miles the clatter goes away. I have not run it with the hood open yet, but I'll try that soon and report back. Sounds a bit too loud for valve train noise to me, but hopefully that's all it is. I'm in Calgary, so it's getting cold nowadays. It's had proper oil changes at the dealer. They use 5w30 -the cheap stuff.
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    barcbarc Member Posts: 15
    Other than the morning clatter the car has been great. I'm happy. Have 19,000 Kms(11700 miles) now. Had trouble with the rear gate latch on 2 really hot days, but that problem has not occured in cooler weather.

    -Barry.
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    barcbarc Member Posts: 15
    Just remembered, when I test drove a Legacy wagon last spring it had pretty awful clatter too when first started. Quiet after a few miles. My wife was not impressed with the sound. But the car was not driven for several weeks and it was about -18C outside. With some snow drifts around the wheels and the fact that it had not snowed for about 2 weeks, I new the car had probably not been run. (everyone tests an Outback here, seems like the L wagon is not flashy enough or something).

    -Barry
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    these engines do clatter in the cold for a minute until the oil heats up enough to get up in there. -18c, you'll hear it for sure! ;')

    The piston slap issue only applied to 2.5 liter Phase I shortblocks. the problem was remedied with the phase II block, which became standard on all Outbacks as of the 2000 Model year. Additionally, many '99 Outbacks have Phase II shortblocks with Phase I top ends (DOHC, not the later SOHC), so many '99s are in the clear as well. My '99 build date is late March and I have a phase II block, FWIW.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    What did they do to the Phase II shortblocks? Did they lengthen the piston skirts like they should have been in the first place on the Phase I blocks?
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    bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    goes a long way... but piston slaps shouldn't be 'loud' like some of you have mentioned. I wouldn't even waste time discussing here without going to the dealer and getting it resolved.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I must be next door to you. I'm in Milford, CT, visiting my brother-in-law, enjoying the half foot of snow a lot!

    First snow for our Legacy. :-)

    -juice
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Exactly the very thing! :) Happy T-Day, everybody!
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I believe the piston skirts rememdied piston slap rather than the shortblock itself. I had piston slap on my Phase I and a set of modified pistons cleared it up. And, oh yes, piston slap can get pretty loud.

    Ken
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    jonw2jonw2 Member Posts: 49
    About 3 months ago I took our 2000 Legacy Wagon in for 30K service. (By the way, the car has been flawless.) The total bill for flushing the transmission and lines,changing coolant,balancing wheels came to $554.61. Of this amount, the labor total was $440.50, and parts, including anti-freeze, brake fluid, fuel filter, & 8 wheel weights were $99.15. There was an additional charge of $14.96 for Enviro. disposal and taxes. I had specifically requested that they not perform a tuneup, change the oil or change the air filter. I change my own oil and air filters. I plan to have the tune up done somewhat later. My question is does this charge seem high for the work performed? A labor charge of 6 hours for this work sounds excessive. Had I had the complete tuneup and oil service it seems that the bill would have been well over $600 or $700. I didn't challenge the charges, but I need to make a decision about this before going in again for official Subaru service. Thanks for your input.
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    jay_24jay_24 Member Posts: 536
    That seems a bit high. My 30k service for a 2001 OB was:
    - Auto tranny flush/fill
    - coolant flush/fill
    - spark plugs
    - brake fluid change
    - fuel and air filter
    - Oil change and filter
    - tire rotate

    Total was like $520 or something with tax. Funny thing is '30k service' seems to vary between dealers.

    --jay
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    bkaiser1bkaiser1 Member Posts: 464
    I paid $550 for the full 30K service, but that also included a 4 wheel alignment ($70 I think). That was for essentially everything in the owners manual (oil/filter, trans oil, brake fluid, coolant, etc). Expensive, yes, but I'm hoping it keeps anything else from going wrong with the car over the long haul.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Ken:

    How the heck are ya? I'm Karl from Minnesota. You gave me some feedback a couple of years ago on your piston slap issue. I finally took mine in last winter and they replaced the whole short block, with very few questions asked. I didn't know you were still hanging around the Subaru boards. You have a Forester, correct?

    Thanks for the insight you had provided.

    Karl
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    mn_patmn_pat Member Posts: 67
    ZMAN,
    do you have an independant shop you recommmend in the mpls area?
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    that's high. I think I paid in the neighborhood of $489 for mine. And then my local guy called up the regimen on his computer and quoted me $350! D'oh.
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Hey, how are you Karl! Sure, I remember you. I'm glad to know that you had your problem fixed. Yes, I've been here on the Crew forums for quite some time now.

    And, yes -- I still have my 98 Forester S. I'm up to 78K miles on it now.

    Glad to see you back.

    Ken
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    uffdaoleuffdaole Member Posts: 37
    zman, I too am in twin city area and had short block (98OB) in march 99 at 8K. Slap gradually reappeared. Dealer replaced timing belt tensioner-no change. Dealer contacted SOA rep and got OK to replace pistons just 4 weeks ago. SOUNDS GREAT!, no cold start noise. Anybody with slap noise and under warranty PERSIST! THIS NOT VALVE CLATTER.
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    idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    Jon,

    Want to hear something that will really kill ya? I flushed my coolant, and drained and refilled my tranny for about $22 by doing it at home. If I'd needed a balance, the tire shop I go to does it free since I bought them there. It took me about 2 hours to manage that on a sunny Fall day last month, taking time to wrestle with my kids on the lawn. Did I mention I also put in top quality coolant vs shop generic? :-) Heck, the difference in what I paid vs yours would have made the car and boat payments this month!

    IdahoDoug
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    mikenkmikenk Member Posts: 281
    My dealer has a large chart that on one side has their package recommendations for the 30K service ($420) and on the other side has ala carte prices for what is actually required under warranty and what they recommend. I like this approach; it clearly gives me the info and options as to what I want to do myself or pay for them to do. It gives the dealer the opportunity to honestly sell their services.

    Mike
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    mn_pat: I kind of have an independent shop that I like. All Imports in Burnsville. I used to really like them a lot, but my opinion of them is starting to slip slightly. I have found them to be extremely honest, but the last 2 brake jobs that they have done for me I have been less than impressed with. Kind of a mixed bag. They are not much cheaper than the dealer, but like I said, I feel that they are honest. I may start using Morries a bit more however for straight forward jobs where I know what needs to be done.

    uffdaole: I had to read your login name a second time before I got it. Pretty good.

    Unfortunately for me my block was replaced at 53K. I will be out of warranty by the end of the year on the repair. So far mine sounds good but if it gradually gets worse I may be SOL unless I am willing to fight. Unfortunately I don't know which block got put in. I don't know if it has pistons with longer skirts or if it was the same version that they pulled. Time will tell. Regardless I figure the vehicle will be well over 100K before I have any real issues, if I do at all.

    For your most recent repair they actually replaced the pistons and didn't just give you a new Phase II short block? I kind of wonder why.
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    toboggantoboggan Member Posts: 283
    Hmmm, I've got a '98 OB - bought new in July '98. Now have about 49,000 miles. This fall I've noticed a "tic", "tic" noise for about a block. Then it goes away. Haven't opened the hood yet to see if it is really noisy. Plus I'm running 5W-30 Amsoil.

    This morning it was about 18F in my part of the Twin Cities (on the way to the ski area). BTW, what dealer in the TC area was doing the piston replacement?

    Toboggan
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Morries did mine after denying initially that they had ever done one. See my previous post #6763.
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Toboggan,

    The ticking noise sounds more akin to normal valve lifter noise than piston slap. Piston slap is a much harder, metallic noise.

    Ken
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    idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    I wanted to add a new topic here in the Subaru All area and was stymied. It seems like the software to add is kinda clutzy - you can only add it into "SUV", "Sedans" etc rather than choosing the Sube board. Then, I tried to select the allowed 3 types of vehicles (SUV, Pickups, Wagons) and it kept highlighting everything BETWEEN my choices. Yeesh. Anyone here ever successfully add a topic? Thanks!

    IdahoDoug
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yep, no "Subaru All" board exists for adding discussion purposes, so you'll have to pick SUVs or Wagons, etc. I think you need to "control-click" each option in windows PCs to get the 3 separate model types added to your categories.

    Steve, Host
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    samhamedsamhamed Member Posts: 3
    Just bought 03 Legacy SP edition. Any advise!
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    uffdaoleuffdaole Member Posts: 37
    Morries (selling dealer) repl short block. White Bear subaru did piston replacement. Service manager and John, writer great to work with. They respected my opinion as I have had 33 yrs exp in auto repair. Retired now and do not miss it a bit. After all those years bought a subie, got to tell you something! uffda
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Anyone: Is there any way I can tell which shortblock assembly I have? I'm interested in determining if my piston skirts are the shorter Phase I design or the longer Phase II. I don't know which replacement I got. Thanks.

    Uffda: So did you request new pistons or was it White Bear's idea or Subaru's idea to replace the pistons? Just curious. Seems to me a new Phase II block would be easier for them.

    Karl
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    idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    I suspect the short blocks are identical if the cure was longer piston skirts. The receipt would have a part number, however, and this would be something a friendly parts counter guy could call up on his computer to see what it is. Probably say something like "Short block, TSB #XXXXXXX repair" that would indicate its the one Subaru uses to take care of the piston issue.

    If you can find it, there will also be a serial number on the engine block you might jot down for the parts guy. Have the date of the work available as well.

    Ah, makes me glad to have the simple and bulletproof 2.2...... Starts on the first turn, makes cool opposed cylinder sounds, and pulls just fine up and down all the mountain passes here. On a steady diet of Mobil 1 it will likely last 300,000 miles.

    IdahoDoug
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    tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Welcome aboard, samhamed!

    What kind of advice are you looking for? I am sure those with experience will be more than happy to help out!

    tidester, host
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    jonw2jonw2 Member Posts: 49
    Thanks to all who replied to my message #6782. I realize now that I should have challenged this charge at the outset. I plan to discuss this with their service manager next week. This is either a mistake or a gross overcharge. Subaru is a fine car, but they could soon price themselves out at that rate. Thanks again for your helpful comments.
    Regards,
    Jon W.
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