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Comments
If we had, we'd have benefited from your infinite advice, if not from your quirky punctuation.
You mean the issue with inadequate lubrication of second gear in the 5-speed automatic of 7th generation Accords?
My understanding is that issue was addressed by Honda on the V-6. I've also read that the 4-cylinder AT probably has the same issue but less stress under acceleration means second gear hasn't cooked early in it's life. Still, inadequate lubrication of a gear can't be good in the long-term for the life of the transmission. It's easily conceivable that V-6 owners who got this issue addressed are actually BETTER off than 4-cylinder owners who don't think it's a problem (yet).
What's not clear is what design change was made on the assembly lines, when the change started, and if it was applied to 4-cylinder transmissions as well.
FWIW – I own a 2005 4-cylinder and I’m not worried about second gear.
Where do you get your information to make such a generalized statement? I've never heard this before. My 02' Passat has never needed a drop of oil between changes, and I change every 5000 miles.
1975 Scirocco - First year out, despite carburetor, ignition and wire harness problems (first two replaced by aftermarket parts), The car went 250,000 miles until a tractor trailer hit it. Didn't start burning oil until 200,000 miles.
1987 Golf GT (624K - in the Volkswagen Hall of Fame)- Only one recall (heater core). Otherwise, extremely reliable. First engine and transmission lasted 429,000. Second engine and transmission well on its way to that mark until the car met its demise via hitting a deer at 60mph. Used synthetic oil and performed a lot of the maintenance myself - including changing struts, timing belt, AC compressor, alternator, starter, fuel pump (most items replaced after passing the 200K mile mark).
2003 Wolfsburg Jetta - 38K, No problems whatsoever with burning oil, window clips, coils, nothing...
Using synthetic oil and factory oil filter (Mann).
1997 Jetta Trek - 119K - engine is tighter than a drum - doesn't burn oil whatsoever. Using synthetic oil and synthetic transaxle fluid.
Most people who purchased Volkswagens make the mistake of driving them gingerly for the first 3000 miles. The piston rings are made from a hard alloy material which requires the engine to be driven normal to hard in order for the rings to properly seat. Most people don't do this, which results in greater than normal oil consumption.
I guess I blamed my wife's '98 4 Cyl Accord transmission failures on this same issue.....maybe it was just a fluke. Though I think not.
Enjoy your appliance....er... I mean Accord.
I guess I blamed my wife's '98 4 Cyl Accord transmission failures on this same issue.....maybe it was just a fluke. Though I think not."
Most reports of transmission issues with gen 6 Accords seemed to be with V6 models, but the extended transmission warranty is on all 2000-2001 Accords. So you're correct that the warranty is for model years and not engine types. But since only 2000-2001 Accords are covered, at least according to Honda's position, your wife's '98 Accord wouldn't be affected. I'd be skeptical as well.
"Enjoy your appliance....er... I mean Accord."
Well, you were batting 1.000 up until now, but .500 isn't bad...
BTW: My wifes Accord was almost perfect until the 70K mile diagnosis. But, for $5,200 for a new transmission we thought that was a little too steep. We soon sold it to CarMax for top $$
Lead me to the place you refer to on the "net" that say's VWs burn oil.
I know about the sludge problem, which can be avoided if you use the correct oil and change it on schedule. I've always used Mobil 1, I figure it's cheap insurance, and I've never needed to add oil between changes.
If reliability is that the car starts in the morning, and doesn't leave you stranded in the middle of a freeway? Then the Passat has been quite reliable in my experience.
This is based on my 20+ years of experience of driving and working on VWs, as well as my discussions with VW dealer mechanics, as well as several independent VW mechanics in my area. And when I mentioned you should drive the vehicle HARD, I don't mean doing burnouts on a drag strip or try the emulate the drivers on the "Fast and the Furious". Drive new VW's normally as though as the car has already been broken in. You won't find this tidbit of information in ANY owner's manual, VW or otherwise.
Are there VW lemons out there? Plenty. But with the exception of my first VW, It's amazing that the VW's I've owned have been quite reliable.
Here's my secret.
1) Never, ever purchase a car during the first year or two model-years of production. These cars will have bugs! Based on the increase in recalls by most manufacturers across the board, I cannot emphasize this point any further. It takes at least a couple of model years to get the bugs worked out. I even took the extra step during my purchases: 1987 Golf GT (third model year for MK2 (second generation) body style), 1997 Jetta Trek (fifth and final MK3 model year), and 2003 Jetta Wolfsburg Edition (sixth MK4 model year).
2)All cars need periodic maintenance (German cars especially) in order to keep them running reliably.
This includes - regular oil changes within the manufacturer's specifications, brake fluid and engine coolant replaced every two years, belts replaced every 4-7 years (or evidence of physical wear - whichever comes first), tires rotated every 5K-10K miles, periodically checking the air pressure in the tires (I've seen more than my share of drivers with blowouts due to improperly inflated tires), checking the brake pads (some drivers are harder on brakes than others). Car owners will have better odds of having a reliable vehicle by following these guidelines than those who don't.
Most people (with their busy schedules) don't make the time to do this, then complain when the vehicle falls apart before its time. Vehicle failures due to a manufacturing flaw is one thing - and is a legitimate gripe. Vehicle failures due to poor or neglected maintenance (which occurs much more frequently than the former) - is another matter altogether - and is no excuse IMHO. People who lease their vehicles are some of the biggest offenders of neglecting the proper maintenance for their vehicles (with the exception of the exterior), because they know they can roll their vehicle for a newer one at the end of each lease.
3)Drivers who have shorter commutes to work tend to have more problems with their vehicles than drivers
who have longer (mostly highway driving) commutes.
Shorter commuters tend to use their brakes more frequently and sit in traffic longer (increasing the risk of overheating the engine). And most importantly, the benefits of highway mileage on a car is a result of the engine having the proper time to burn off acids, water and other contaminants that form in the motor oil when the car sits overnight - resulting in a reduction in engine wear.
This advice applies to all makes, VW, Honda, Ford Model T, etc....
I just got my CR 2005 Buying Guide. I don't want to make a big deal about this, but you'd better check again, because it seems you misinterpreted their results. The Guide matches their web site exactly. Both the 4 and V6 versions of the '03 Passat were awarded a "-" or black dash, which is average overall reliability, according to their key. While this is an improvement over the series of black X's (meaning below-average overall reliability) this generation got in its earlier years, the highest reliability rating for any Passat listed in the Guide is average.
While this does surpass the high priced German nameplates as you stated, along with more expensive big brother Audi A6, the Passat's rating is not as good as Accord or Camry for '03 or for any listed year, for that matter. For all listed years, both the Accord and Camry were given a "black check", which means better-than-average overall reliability, beating out the assortment of average and below-average overall reliability scores given to the Passat from 1998 thru 2003.
Again, not trying to make a big deal about this, just striving for accuracy.
When you look at the CR chart for the 03' Passats, the results for all the trouble spots are problems in 2.0% or less vehicles, which is above average in all categories but one on the 6 cyl. and two on the 4 cyl. There are no average or below average results.
So what's accurate? That should add up to better than average.
Go figure...
I agree with EVERYTHING you said about the maintainance of these fine German cars, except for one thing. I had a VW mechanic tell me that you never have to change the coolant on the newer VW's, that topping it off when needed is enough to keep it fresh. It's supposed to be topped off at each service.
"I'm a bit curious about the details behind why the reliability of the 6 is rated so low. Wouldn't it follow that there would be some issues with the individual categories to go along with this? Yet the '03 model is rated excellent in 7 categories, very good in 4, and good in 3, with nothing lower. I guess for the car to get a below average rating for overall reliability, I'd expect to see at least one or two categories in which the car was rated fair or poor.
What am I missing?"
Their reply was that I was missing the fact that the overall reliability verdict is based on comparing each car's reliability to the "average" car's reliability in each one of those problem areas - a relative measurement. Each of those "blobs" corresponds to a % of occurrance - an absolute measurement. That's where the disconnect lies.
Since nearly new cars are nearly troublefree (with most of those blobs being very good or excellent), even a low occurrance of problems can correspond to a below average reliability verdict.
So the average score is indeed accurate. The final score isn't the "sum" of the individual scores, but the overall comparison of the car's score to the average car.
For example, compare the '03 Accord, '03 Camry and the '03 Passat.
The Camry gets a very good in one category and the other 13 are all excellent. The Camry gets a much better than average overall score.
The Accord gets a good in one category and a very good in another. The other 12 are excellent. The Accord gets a better than average overall score.
The Passat has 2 goods, 5 very goods and 7 excellents. Although it doesn't look all that bad when you look at the Passat's scores by themselves, you can see that that both the Camry and the Accord did noticably better. Hence the Passat's average score.
That's their explanation. If you have further questions, you'll have to ask the CR editors.
Great summary, thanks!
Most people nowadays either lease their cars or sell/trade them with low mileage. So on balance the owners of these cars will not have to worry about having the coolant changed (barring mechanical faiures)...
If you go on any of the "Problem" boards, you'll find every car has serious glitches come up. CR has consistently rated VWs high on quality and customer satisfaction, and I think that reputaton is justly deserved.
I now drive an '04 Acura TL, and while it is a little more upscale and a lot faster, the VW fit and finish was comparable enough that if the new model Passat had come out, I would have seriously considered it.
i'm sure the passat is going to be one fine car but i'm wondering why VW is abandoning the low end of the market? the new jetta is essentially replacing the existing passat.
I would believe the results in CR before I would base my opinion on a car's reliability from these forums. I think people who are dissatisfied with their cars tend to complain, while those that are happy are mostly silent.
It will be interesting to see if the 04' Passat can maintain that quality long term.
You will note that Consumer Report's April 2005 Annual Auto Issue, based upon the latest survey of 810,000 vehicle owner responses, contains the following information:
Pages 6 & 7 "Top Picks - The Best Models in 10 Categories" do not contain any European brands (i.e. no VWs).
Page 8 "Which cars would people get again" The "Most Satisfying" list does not contain any VWs.
Page 18 "How New Cars Are Likely To Hold Up" predicted "2005 New-Car Reliability - How the Makes Compare" table of 36 brands, places VW #32 out of 36 (i.e. worse than average).
Page 31 "Quick Picks" of recommeded vehicles in the following categories: "High ratings in all areas", "If reliability is important", "If fuel economy is important", If overall safety is important" and "If owner satisfaction is important". Only one VW, the Passat GLX (V6), appeared in one category - Overall Safety.
Page 33 Passat GLX (V6) shown as Predicted Average Reliability.
Page 77 Vehicle Profiles - Passat GLX (V6) shown as Predicted Average Reliability. Although the model is given a "Recommended" checkmark, they state "Reliability of the AWD model dropped to below average."
Page 82 "Reliability Scores" CR states "Scores for each trouble spot represent the percentage of survey respondents who reported problems occurring in the 12 months from April 1, 2003 through March 31, 2004 that were deemed serious because of cost, failure, compromised safety or downtime." A full red circle means 2% or less (of respondents with problems). A half red circle means 2% to 5%. A full white circle means 5% to 9%. A half black circle means 9.3% to 14.8%. A full black circle means more than 14.8%. CR states that "to see how a 2005 or 2006 model.. is likely to hold up, (they) averaged a model's Reliability Verdict scores for the last three years... found that three years' data are a better predictor than is the single-most-recent model year." They further state "2004 models were generally less than six months old at the time of the survey, with an average of about 3,000 miles. Vehicles that new should have few problems, so a score of (a half-red circle) or worse is below average for most."
Page 93 (the page that you have been quoting) Of the 15 "Trouble Spots" surveyed, the 2004 Passat V6 & AWD received one half black circle (transmission) and three half red circles (brakes, power equipment & body hardware). Thus, the verdict of Worse-than-average reliability for that year.
Yes, the 4-cylinder model came up with better 2004 results, but they should be suspect since both versions use basically the same brakes, power equipment and body hardware. Since there were too many half and full black circles in earlier years, only time will tell.
To each their own!!!
If you agree that the Passat is NOT as reliable as the Accord and you had ZERO problems with the Passat, does that mean that the Accord would have less than zero problems or actually fix its own problems. WOW! The Honda Accord, a self-healing car.
MidCOW - Now on the Accord bandwagon
You stated "I hate to see people miss out on such a great car as the Passat because of CR findings." Please realize that the results of Consumer Report's published survey are not "CR findings" as much as they are the actual owner/drivers' findings as reported by thousands of those individuals on their annual CR questionnaire.
I understand that the Passat is a fine driving car. However, my experiences with electrical system problems with my two VW Rabbits soured me on the company years ago. They were decent to drive though.
2 VW Rabbits? How long ago did you own these?
Did the car start "turning bad" in 2003? Seems like CR had drastic changes in their findings after the 1st too years of the current model's production?
On their ratings sheet, the '03 and '04 are rated "very good" for reliability.
My VW Rabbits were both purchased new. A '75 (first year for the Rabbit in the US) and an '80. As I recall, I put about 104K miles on the '75. Of course we all know that the Golf was just a rebadged Rabbit. And the Jetta was just a Golf with a trunk grafted on.
The must haves are ABS, side and side curtain airbags and vehicle stability control, nee ESP. This brings it down to Camry v/s Passat, since the Accord anyway does not have VSA. I would prefer the drive of the Passat, but over the past year having seen so many issues (agreed, minor), I am not sure what I would be jumping into. This car would be doing a 100 mile daily commute, so I can't spend time at dealerships. The Camry would be a safe choice, however, I do prefer the sportier ride of the Passat, so its turning to be a dilemma. Also, there is a new Passat coming out, which is supposed to be expensive and I probably can't wait till then.
What say you?
Good Luck,
MidCow the Manual Shift Man
1. The Passat (at least the GLX) has rain-sensing wipers that work very well. When it starts raining you just turn them on & forget it. It's great when the rain levels keep changing.
2. The stearing wheel radio controls don't run through your presets - they act as a "seek up" or "seek down" feature, which is very annoying and almost not worthwhile.
Lastly, just want to point out that the new Accords got a horsepower increase so I think they're faster than both Camrys & Passats.
My major concern is that I would be really pissed off if I had minor issues like bulbs fusing all the time, and some or the other light coming on. This is the only thing that is keeping me from going with the Passat. In the end I guess I would have to take a call on that.
I'm comparing a V6 Passat to an Accord V6 and here is the extras I like in both:
- the extra in the Passat is the stability control and Tiptronic transmission.
The extra in Accord is the 240Hp and the in dash cd changer.
I wish I can combine both!