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High Performance Luxury Sedans

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Comments

  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    *All* the tires were munched up on the extreme edge of the inside within 6,000 miles. I always check my tires, but in this case the tires were used up on a strip so narrow that it was impossible to see. I noticed when a tire blew up while driving. And no - I have not once smoked the tires turning off traction control.

    It was a blatant case of misalignment of the ssupension setting or something in the chassis. I did get about the first 2001 model year...

    But Jaguar service stated it's normal for tires to get misaligned and use unevenly (in the *identical* spot on *all* tires?), and that is not covered my warranty. Tire replacement and alignment: $2,500 or so.

    That was Jaguar brand loyalty for me: I have spent well over $120,000 on their cars over the last 7 years, and that's what I got.

    I wrote two letters, never received a reply. Since the arrival of S and X types, Jaguar simply is not the same brand, at least not in my opinion. The personalized service is gone.

    In the future, I shall follow the path of smaller brands with a reputation for caring.

    I still think Jaguars fantastic cars, but cars are not important enough to me to put up with such disappointing buying experiences. If you get me once, shame on you - get me twice, shame on me. Won't come to that...
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Any news on the E55 yet?

    Thanks,

    Paul
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think the title of this thread should include the S-Type R and RS6, and drop the XJR. The XJR competes with the S8, S55 etc.

    Auto, Motor und Sport just did a comparo between the M5 and the RS6. Their conclusion: The M5 still is THE car in this segment.

    Automobile Magazine (Dec issue) has a comparo between the S-Type R, RS6, E55 and M5. Their conclusion: The M5 is still king.

    Both of these comparos are very telling. The M5 gets it's motor handed to it by the RS6. I mean 0-60 in 4.3secs is true sports car territory. Curiously the E55 in Automobile's comparo didn't perform up to spec. The S-Type R was just too soft to compete in the hardcore realm of the three German sedans. Check the 0-100 times for the S-Type R and the E55. The E55 does the job in less than HALF the time of the Jaguar!!

    The M5 wins it for them based in it's body control, steering precision and overall balance. Automobile states that the M5 weighs 250lbs less than the E55, yet on the data page they show the E55 weighing only 26lbs more than the M5?? They also knocked the E55 for fuel economy, but all the other cars got like 1-2 MPG more. Silly to be even talking about such a thing for cars of this caliber. They all drink gas!

    Naturally I like all these, but my ranking would have been: E55/RS6 (tied) M5 and then the S-Type R. Love the RS6 and E55, "like" the M5 and S-Type R.

    If the M5 is truly this good (waiting to see more comparos) to triumph over brand new competitors, I'm even more impressed with BMW......didn't think that was possible.

    I'm awaiting the all mighty Car and Driver to do this comparo. The best one of the U.S. mags will most likely be Road and Track.

    paulchiu,

    Car and Driver says the E55 is due in May.

    M
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Everyone should read it. Quite enjoyable. Lots of good pictures and data. Interesting and readable text.

    One thing especially interested me. Automobile mentions how important the M5's lower weight is regarding the M5's advantage in steering, handling, and braking. Text talks about the M5 weighing 250 pounds less than E55 and 350 pounds less than RS6. But their data sheet lists the M5 at 4,023 pounds, E55 at 4,046 pounds, and RS6 at 4,057 pounds. So I'm wondering if the M5 actually weighs a lot less. Thinking it should over the AWD RS6.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah, they need to explain that one.

    Is it me or is Automobile getting more and more like CAR and EVO? Not on the same scale or depth, but in their comparisons and the level of cars they're comparing. I see that Georg Kacher writes for both CAR and Automobile. Very good stuff.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Guys,

    Did Auto Mag test the upcoming E55 and M5 or the current versions?

    Paul
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The new E55 (469hp) and the current M5. The next M5 is not due until 2005 at the earliest.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Wow! That's saying a lot about the 394hp M5, as it is 4 year old technology versus the new razzle dazzle E class!

    Auto hasn't hit my newstands yet. Sucks!

    As I said before, my lease runs out in Sept 2003, so I had my eyes on the new E55. But if Auto mag says that the older M5 is better, my decision might just get a little easier.

    Paul
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Just got my Car & Driver and the suggested is $88K. This puts the E55 out of my budget. Man! From 72K to 88K. What are they thinking!

    Paul
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah that does say a lot. I've already accepted that nobody is going to top the M5 without a manual. Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar simply aren't going to do it. The press will stand on that "feeling" thing and thats ok to. I like how the E55 and RS6 outrun the M5 though. That RS6 is unbelievably fast.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    I will probably not be interested in a turbo charger as I never had good experience with any in the past. But the RS6 is certainly pricing itself much lower than the new E55. The 2004 M5 will be the last in the line before the monster upgrade. From the looks of the E55, the V10 500HP+ M5 will be more $$$, but should not be more than 88K as BMW always undercut Benz. If I were not so lazy with the "stick", I might just get the M5 considering the last model year models tends to be trouble free. Did they do away with the leather headliners for the current M5?

    Paul
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Any words from your Benz dealer on the E55 pricing?

    Paul
  • afdelucaafdeluca Member Posts: 5
    I recently rode in a friend's 2001 M5. It was black with an unusual leather interior. It sort of had the coloring and texture of a baseball glove. A bit more orange than most of the palomino or tan leathers that I have ever seen.

    Do any of you know what the name of this leather might be?
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    you rode in an M5 and all you care about was the Leather?
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Only in America !
  • afdelucaafdeluca Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for the help.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Just got a copy. Great honest review. Very thorough as they drove these 4 beasts over many surfaces and terrains.

    Man! They surely did not refrain from trashing the Jag and to a lesser degree the Audi and even the Benz, which was the most expensive car in the group.

    Now I am thinking M5 for 9/03. I wonder if it will still be available by then.

    Better relearn how to do the stick shift, fast.
    Last time I use that was over 20 years ago with an Accord.

    Paul
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...a German friend of mine who moved to CA a year ago got a stickshift, and he regrets it in CA traffic... Lots of fun 20% of the time, but sometimes the auto is more convenient... I always had stickshifts while living in Europe, but here in the US I have entirely switched to autos (except on the motorcycle, of course)...
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    It had always been interesting to me in my travels that many taxi drivers still uses manual boxes in heavy traffic places like Hong Kong, Taipei, Kuala Lumpur, Rome, and even Johannesburg. It's almost like these older drivers are used to the stick. Perhaps it's a relationship with their cars, or simply more things to keep them awake.

    I will always remember driving from New York to Toronto one July 4th weekend with a newly broken right hand in a cast and driving a manual Honda through a 2 hours traffic jam through downtown NYC traffic, then 7 hours to Canada. Things we all do right out of college.

    Now, driving a manual from time to time makes me wonder why.

    Paul
  • stvirstvir Member Posts: 13
    www.autoweek.com

    Pricing seems to start at $75,000!
  • sixfeettwelvesixfeettwelve Member Posts: 3
    We hear all sorts of things...$75k...$88K who knows? I sell Benzes in Connecticut and we don't have anything firm as yet. AMG is going full tilt with the 496HP 5.5 Liter engine. Saw my first SL55 last week...even the engine is signed by the engineer that built it. Will have an S 55 here next week..will keep ya posted.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    6'12,

    Any news?
  • winterbwinterb Member Posts: 1
    The new E55 looks like it is going to be the new bellweather for the "super sedan" market. At least until BMW ramps up the new M5, and even then if MB would offer a manual, they might keep the torch. I have an order on an RS6 because I like the 4 wheel traction. What is the aversion AMG has to using the 4matic tranny??
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    March 2003 edition has road test for 2003 E55. Priced at 74K. One reviewer said the M5 at 70 less HP is better; same as Automobile magazine.

    The speed numbers are most impressive, but handling is suspect, as it only pulled 0.83g, nowhere near the near 0.9 level of the M5, and even less than the previous E55.

    The reviewer also made bad comments on the brakes and steering.

    The seating comfort ratings were excellent. And the driver commented on no wind noise even in the triple digits.

    As for how outrageous is the speed. How's 9.8 seconds for 0-100 mph.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    As soon as everyone realizes that Mercedes isn't trying to build a track-biased car like BMW's M division does everything will be ok. That should be obvious to C&D by now. Mercedes has had since 2000 to study the M5 and go that route if they wanted to, but the clearly didn't. The E55 has an air suspension for a better ride over the M5 and previous E55, and no manual trans. Clearly they aren't going for a track car here.

    The E55 has that high-speed stability that German cars, Mercedes-Benz in particular made such a desirable and sought after trait. The price paid for that is somewhat less agility when asked the change direction. Getting .83gs on the skidpad doesn't tell the whole story about it's overall handling.

    M
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Seems easy enough to understand. When will MB, Jag, etc. figure out that they need to offer a real manual transmission? And since they won't, maybe they'll finally put an SMG-type manual sometime down the road?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I hardly think the E55 not having a manual disqualifies it as a "supercar" especially when it outruns all the others in this class. Though I doubt they'll ever do a manual or SMG trans. If they're going to do that they may as well ditch the software and offer a good old-fashioned clutch pedal.

    M
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    merc1... When you think of truly classic Ferrari, Porsche, Lambro, Maserati, Jags, etc., do you think of automatic transmission models? Know I don't. [Some (not me) might think slushboxes were good enough for late 1960s 2 ton Detroit behemouth muscle cars, but even then collectors really want the manuals.]

    That is why C&D, Automobile, etc. think and write what they do. Not too hard to understand.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    I too do not think supercar means manual transmission. Most of the race cars on the circuit are not the traditional clutch and pedal but rather electronic drive by wire trannies. Giving an inexperience driver a manual clutch and pedal in a car capable of 0-150 at 23 seconds is dangerous to others on the road.

    BTW
    Read in the WSJ that you can lease a Maserati GT for $999 a month for 4 years. This is for a car that lists for 88K. This might have some effect on the pricing/leasing on the E55. Then again, might not, as I am paying north of $1400 a month on my S500 with ABC and distronics.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thats true, but we're talking about sedans here, not Ferraris.

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I trust companies like MB and Jaguar knowing what the majority or their target customers really want... They do offer manuals in many of their more basic models. It's interesting that, as the price steepens, most of their models don't bother to offer a manual anymore...
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    merc1... I thought we were talking about SUPER sedans. Super equals manual transmission. (Don't forget, Ferrari has offered automatics.)

    pablo_1... Offering a manual transmission makes a certain statement in the market. Some marques want to make it, others don't. Jag and MB don't have the sort of performance image in buyers minds as say BMW or Porsche. That is one reason why both offer manual transmissions. It is just too bad MB and Jag won't get truly serious with their SUPER sedans.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    A sedan with 469hp, a 0-60 time of 4.5secs, 0-100 mph in 9.8secs isn't "super"? There are exceptions to ever rule, the E55 is just that. Manual or not the E55 is every bit a "super" sedan.

    M
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    merc1... All I can say is I completely agree with C&D, Automobile, and others who have opined that the lack of a manual transmission is a serious issue that does significantly detract from the desireability of cars like the AMG E55 and Jag XJR. They may be Super, but the M5 is SUPER.

    For better or worse, having an automatic seems like losing 100 HP. Not to mention the loss of control. And the general loss of being in touch with your car. A slushbox in combination with all of the MB's computer-controlled braking, handling, steering, etc. systems might make one wonder whether you or the computer is actually in charge.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We'll lets just say I completely disagree with that. Having a automatic doesn't "seriously" detract from the desirability of these cars. AMG sells everything they build. Mercedes and BMW just have different philosphies about performance. I also think you're reading too much into C&D says. The driver is still ultimately in charge of the car.

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    It seems the majority of luxury car buyers in the US like power, but they also like the convenience of the auto. The M5 is the one that defies the super sedan norm here, and I do think that reflects the choice most buyers make. Everyone thinks the M5 is awesome, but when it comes to spending $70k on a four door they are not willing to forget about convenience.

    Personally, the degree of responsiveness a manual offers is something I value in a more compact, agile and sports-carish package. A motorcycle with an auto would be an aberration. A small, agile convertible or coupe with an auto is a shame. A full-blown sedan with an auto - that's in character.

    All in all, it's a good thing the market provides a choice. Personally, in California, I would never consider the M5 - but I know people who own one and adore them, and more power to them.

    If Mercedes and Jaguar offered manuals, I am willing to bet most buyers would shun that version of the car, and opt for the auto.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    My 2 dealer contacts told me either June or October for the E55. Also, not sure if it's a model year 2003 or 2004. Seems there is no option for even larger wheels/tires to perhaps compensate for that 0.83g.

    For M5 owners, is the clutch tighter than the one in a 540i sports?
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    E65 is coming!http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&- amp;cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08359898
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Automobile Magazine also hinted at this. Though I doubt they'll be an E65, but a SL65, S65 and CL65 are a given.

    I want Mercedes to do a naturally aspirated E600 with a true 6.0L V12 with about 420hp, fat fenders and every E-Class option standard...in the tradition of the W124 E500 model.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Cannot decide on the color, need help!

    My last 2 Benz had been brilliant silver/charcoal and I wanted to try something new on my 2004 E55 order.

    Thinking :

    1) Pewter
    2) Desert silver
    3) Obsidian Black

    All with Ash interior.

    My main concern is that the blacks seems to show scratches very easily. Am I wrong?

    Thanks for any ideas.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well if you must have the Ash interior then go with the Obsidian Black exterior. Pewter would be my next choice, but only with a Charcoal interior.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    merc1,

    Have you had a black Benz in the past? If so, how hard was it to keep it protected from elements?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Nope, haven't had ANY Benzes yet....just been my experience with relatives/friends MB's. Black is the hardest color to keep "right" no matter what the brand. BTW, I went to the Chicago Autoshow today. The E55 is an awesome piece. I think you should consider a Pewter/Charcoal combination.

    After today I'm once again convinced that Mercedes' best car is the CL Coupe. Such a stunningly timeless Benz design thats just the right size. One of the Benz reps told me that MBUSA is still trying to decide if the 605hp CL65 is coming to the U.S! Also got a chance to see the new CLK55 AMG. The new CLK is growing on me, the cabriolet should put it over the top for me. The only Benz that fails to wow me is the C-Class, though the reps claim some "significant" changes are in store for 2004, due to tons of customer feedback about the C's interior, and it's feature/price ratio. Sorry for rambling.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    M,

    I put in the reserve for a pewter/ash. The sales guy called earlier.

    Actually, I do not think such a combo exists for the E55. Doesn't it have 2 tones interiors?

    I think pewter should take abuse, similar to my brilliant silver. I did see a pewter 2003 SL55 at the showroom. If I were not married with kid, I just might....

    Agree on the CL class, it's a classic. Where the CL is the hottest, the G wagon is butt ugly. Just do not understand why people prefer it over a Range Rover. Even the Hummer 2 looks better....

    The C class is just too small for me. Probably too small for my son. He has grown accustomed to the palatial rear seats of the S500 over the last 2+ years.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Pewter/Ash huh, that should be an interesting color combo, I've never seen that one. I'm sure the new E55 will offer AMG's dubious two-tone interiors this time around too. I've never been a fan of AMG's idea of taste when it comes to those red/black, silver/black leather combos. I hate those steering wheels when they're silver and/or white too. AMG should offer lighter woods, granite and exotic color leathers like the Designo program does, standard. Or they should just offer the normal leathers/woods in combination with the AMG specific seats. That aluminum trim in C-Class, SL and CLK has to go, its terrible. Wood is the only way to go for a Benz. All of this being my little opinion though.

    The G-Class has this following because for one it's "new" here, as most folks didn't know that Europa of New Mexico had been quietly importing them for years, but at 120K+ a piece. I suspect if the G's popularity increases we'll get the G500 2-door cabriolet and possibly the G400 CDI version too. While I like the look of it (Nato rescue vehicle and all) I'm not too fond of the interior. Around Chicago they're a common sight now and people still gawk. Amazing.

    Theres nothing wrong with the C-Class that an interior gutting, engine revamp and price freeze won't cure. I will say that I am disappointed by Mercedes' decision to sell that "Kompressor" 4-cylinder engine in the sedan bodystyle again, after they swore it was gone from the U.S. sedan lineup forever. The C's last chance to impress me will be this fall when the "facelift" happens.

    M
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    M,

    Isn't the C already revamped just 2 years ago? Wouldn't any change be in 2004? That said, the C32 AMG is a beast, almost as wild as a M3. Think the M3 is still the best compact sports sedan, the C32 very very close 2nd.

    After driving the E500 for 15 miles last week, I have to say it's almost as sporty as the current 528i, or even the 540i. The body seems tighter over rough roads than the BMW, but the handling is not as good. Since the reports had better steering on the E55, I am not concerned about my "blind" order. In order to test drive a E55 these days, I'll probably have to wait for the 2005 model year.

    I wonder if I have to get these so called "value" packages to get xenon lamps with washers on a E55. The dealership still has no info when he called for my color choice.

    As for the ash, years ago, I loved the lighter creme leather interiors of my Lexus ES300. It was a 98 ES with metallic white pearl/creme leather. The interior looked so nice, and worked well when my baby was born. Then I went to a ML430 starting with the brilliant silver/charcoal with I still have in my S500 today. The charcoal, if not kept cleaned, looks pretty bad, especially after these snowy months. Sure, ash probably looks awful too, but probably can hide/blend dust better. Who knows....

    A G500 2 door? Sounds like an ice cream truck to me.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes the C-Class was totally redesigned for 2001, but for 2004 it will get a "facelift" not a total redesign. You know like the S-Class got this year and the E-Class got for 2000.

    With the new E-Class Mercedes seems to have hit the nail right on the head. It's good looking inside and out, of higher quality than the previous car and everyone seems to love the new Airmatic DC suspension.........even Car and Driver does! So far I haven't read about nearly as many problems with the new E compared to when the current S and C cars were introduced.

    Good luck with your choice of colors.

    Yep there is a 2-door G-Class in Europe, it's the same type of bodystyle as the Land Rover Freelander SE3.

    M
  • autocluelessautoclueless Member Posts: 6
    Hello,

    My wife has a S430 and it's black (charcoal interior).
    Wax with the Zaino stuff. Looks very good
    newly waxed (for about 2 months) - looks
    almost liquid (but i guess some people hate
    that polymer wet look - they prefer that
    Brazilian wax stuff).
    However, difficult to keep clean during
    the California winter (rain) - have to
    wash it every few weeks or so.
    Park outside 24/7/365 (garage is filled
    with household junks...).

    Yes i do get scratches but not from washing,
    though (i use water blade, 100% USA cotton
    towel, etc...).
    I got the deep scratches from the bushes/branches when we go to visit various state parks.
  • tjm1198tjm1198 Member Posts: 10
    I am in the market for a new BMW and am seriously considering the M5. What an awesome car on paper! My only concern is how comfortable is the M5 as a daily driver? Any 2001-2003 owner's out there have any type of information about the car's high's & low's let me know Id be really interested in knowing what you have to say.
  • w210w210 Member Posts: 188
    I would wait for the new model, although the new E55 seems to be a very good choice if you need to make the purchase now!
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