High Performance Luxury Sedans

w210 · August 2004

merc1:

"A bunch of relatively minor things with your E55 huh. That is Mercedes biggest problem because I'm sure if you get a survey it won't be good for Mercedes."

Actually, no, I have been rather pleased and will complete the survery as such. My philsophy with cars is that the more expensive the car, the more things will go wrong and I will spend more time at the dealership. This I can accept as I am the driver who can truly appreciate the extra bells and whistles.

The part that bothers me will be incapable mechanics and service departments. So far, I have been rather happy with MB as they fixed all my problems and they treated me well. Last time I serviced the car I was given a brand new CLK convertible overnight.

Am I happy with the company Honda mini-van? Yes but I also expected much less. Am I going to continue bringing the car in to fix the endless rattles and brake noise? No, I learn to live with the problems.

paulchiu:

"Since my ride was short and I was busy talking business, let me ask those here with experience with both S500 and E55. Is the E55 better in terms of the annoying interios noise? I remember the 99 E55 was very quiet over even cobblestone roads and the side roads around Scarsdale NY."

Paul, I recall reading about your purchase decision months ago. I have driven the S500, the 2000-2001 E55, and have owned a 2004 E55 for 9 months.

The 2004 is as rattle free as my 2001 E55 and I know what you mean about the noises in the S500. I am extremely fussy about interior squeaks and rattles.

pcvette:

"If anyone out there has an '04 55, do you experience pause/tick/hiccup starting out in "C" or "S"? Dealer tells me the supercharger if off at idle (also cruising)and kicks in at start around 1500 RPM. ??"

Yes, I can hear the engine slightly ticking when idling cold, but I felt the same in the 2003 SL500 as well so I concluded it was the characteristic of the MB V8.

paulchiu · August 2004

Thanks W210.

Yeah, I've been here for years, I enjoy the discussions, maybe as much as owning the car itself.

I think it's strange that the 2005 E55 does not have NAV or the better lighting as standard equipment, as almost no dealer I called had any with NAV. Some have that 319 lighting package.

BTW, I am happy to hear your lack of interior noise, the S500's was a main reason that drove me into a Lexus LS430. But, after 13 months, similar but less "regular" noise are inside the LS430 as well. I figure if I must live with interior trim noise inside a $70 to $100 car, I must have better 0-30MPH performance in the city!

w210 · August 2004

Paul,

Yes I have enjoyed the Edmunds community as well. In fact, I posted a complaint about the new 7 series here and ended up having an interview with Businessweek and having my dissatisfaction published.

I think we have similar sickening expectation on rattle/squeak free interiors. I have always been curious about the LS and it's interesting to hear it also has its share of interior trim noise.

The COMAND option should be a no brainer as it only costs $1k in the US. I wonder if it's something the dealer can add as all 2005 cars do come with the large screen and if I'm not mistakened it is only a matter of adding the DVD player in the trunk?

Here in Canada, the E55s come with bi-xenons, and I added the active cornering option. Another nice feature to add is the auto trunk closer. Very handy at a reasonable price.

If you have any questions on the E55, don't hesitate to ask, here are my options:

Ventilated Dynamic seats
Active cornering bi-xenons
CD Changer
Trunk closer
Nav

paulchiu · August 2004

Thanks! I think a great drive would be to take the E55 from New York to Toronto. I remember the half dozen times I did that in my 20's, right after college with my wife. Since my son, we have hardly driven longer than 80 miles at any time, and that's to the Lexus dealer for service.

I remember the drive especially from Niagara to Toronto to be an area where you can really do serious speeds in an E55.

I can imagine driving one at night with the kid sleeping in the back, listening to jazz, and with that quiet cabin, that fabulous grip of the ground at near triple digits speeds will certainly make one's mind go back in time. Perhaps even experience another level of perception as those Endorphins fires at full strengths!

Paul

phud · August 2004

Hello M5 Owners,

This is shameful but I admit that I cannot afford a M5 that is newer than 4 years old. Even when a 4 years old M5, the avg price is still in the $30K - $40k range. However, I see some of the unbelieveably low M5 prices listed in Yahoo autos. Their prices are range from $16K - $30K for 2001 - 2003 models and all the sellers are from in NY. What is your opinion of this? Is this some kind of a joke? Made in China BMW M5

?
Would you recommend that I should contact on pursuing the purchase?

Thank you for any advices.
From M5 admirer

w210 · September 2004

Paul,

While I'm on the west coast, I'm very familiar with the QEW/I90 stretch from Toronto to east coast USA. A very nice road to do serious speeding indeed. I used to take my 1991 Saab 9000 Turbo from Toronto to Providence/NYC/Philadelphia every few months to see my girlfriend. I wish I could afford a 500E then!

After our daughter was born, we have not taken any road trips longer than 2 hours. Quite a shame as the E55 is really designed for highway cruising. It accelerates from 75 mph to 95 as effortlessly as going from 35 mph to 55 mph. How can I describe the feeling, you feel kind of liberated and free on the highway. You can get away from and into trouble so easily. You see that car tailgating dangerously close to others next to you, you step on it and you're 20 cars away in a split second.

However, I'm sure one area it cannot beat the LS430 is the tire noise and slightly harsher ride. To address this problem, most E55 owners dump their factory Continentals for Michelin Pilot Sports, I may follow soon.

horsepower1 · September 2004

Those low prices in NY are a scam. They want you to send a $3000. deposit with a promise to ship car later. You won't get the car and you will lose your $3000. Don't do it.

iwangs04 · September 2004

Thanks for the advice. I figured so, some kind of the scam or some sort. It's too good to be true.

Thx...
D

merc1 · January 2005

Pretty quiet on this board. Anyone here going for the new M5 or CLS55 AMG?

w210,

Do you still have your E55? What do you think of the CLS500/55?

M

w210 · January 2005

Still enjoying my E55. I'm putting on some decent tires on the car as I type - Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s.

With the replacement tires, I'm going 275 on the back to beef up the overall traction. Will report back on the improvement.

I have a deposit on the M5 but turned down the CLS55. The CLS55 is not practical enough for me with a reduction of interior space (rear middle seat gone). The car emphasizes much on style but little on substance if you ask me.

The M5 should be interesting (still 10 months away) and I'm still on the fence. I find the car quite ugly and not luxurious enough for me. Must test one out to see if I can live with all the buttons and harsh suspension day in day out.

I enjoy effortless acceleration and performance in my daily sedans I hope the M5 can match the E55 in this area, without having to rev the engine to 7k, creating too much fuss and noise.

cdr · February 2005

Sure am. I'm on the list for the new M5. I currently have a 2001 M5 and love it. Great ride, <mostly> unpretentious looks and insanely fast. I'm planning on doing European delivery on the new M5, even though it means I'm probably going to have to wait a few extra months before I can pick mine up, but I really want to drive it for just a couple of weeks on the roads it was designed to be driven on.

w210 · February 2005

These Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s make all the difference, car handles significantly better. Nicer ride as well, unbelievable.

merc1 · February 2005

Well do stick around and tell us all about your new M5 when you get it. The new M5 promises to probably be the best sports sedan ever imagined. I've seen it on Auto, Motor und Sport TV and I have to say it looked like one those video games the way it takes to a twisty road with that V10 soundtrack in the background. Idrive and styling concerns I'm sure will be forgiven upon the first testdrive for many.

M

cdr · February 2005

thanks, I'll definitely post a message to let you know what I think.

xkss · February 2005

The new Jaguar XJR doesn't really compete with the E55 AMG and the BMW M5. The closest car to the aluminum XJR is the Maserati Quattroporte. It will be interesting to see how the 2006 Cadillac STS-V fares against the XJR.

Information and pictures on the 06 STS-V:

http://media.gm.com/events/autoshows/05naias/brands/cadillac/stsv- %20overview.html

http://www.cadillac.com/under5/under5.html

from motorsportscenter.com

"The supercharged Northstar V8: 4.4 liters, 440 hp, 430 lb-ft of torque - 90% of which is available from 2200 to 6000rpm, and VVT. This supercharger is worthy of special note - engineers were happy to tell us that this blower operates with some 30% less drag than the Ford GT's supercharger, and the intercooler has 50 cooling fins per inch length of the pipeline."

xkss · February 2005

Pictures, videos, and more of the 05 XJ

http://www.keycast.com/keycast/jaguar/xj/USNewXJ_LWB/default.asp?- ref=noref&detect=1&flashversion=7&jsenabled=1

Information on Jaguar's 4.0 V-8:

http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/v8_performance.html

The new aluminum XJ8 (from 2004 on) has a 4.2 V-8 with a ZF 6 speed automatic transmission. It pollutes less, makes more power, and is more efficient than the 4.0 V-8.

Here is a picture of the new XJ's aluminum chassis:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/images/04jagxjbody.jpg

The new XJ's chassis is 40 per cent lighter than that of the equivalent steel body and 60 per cent stiffer than its predecessor. The next XK8 will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis.

xkss · February 2005

I would take these two sedans over a new M5:

Holden HSV sedan video:

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vy2/video/premiere.wmv

The above Holden HSV sedan (owned by GM...HSV is Holden's performance line) uses a Corvette's LS1. They now use the LS2. Holden races their sedan in the Australian V8 Supercar series.

Here is a link to Holden HSV:

http://www.hsv.com.au/index_new.html

Ford Falcon XR8 video:

http://www.strategicqld.com.au/files/burnbabyburn.mpg

The above car is made by Ford of Australa. Ford of Australia has a performance line, FPV. Here is a link to Ford FPV:

http://fpv.com.au/

xkss · February 2005

The new M5's grille looks like a Pontiac's grille.

The rear taillights look like a 2001 Kia Rio's taillights.

Why does the new 5 series have a nasty flat dash?

merc1 · February 2005

This class is quickly splitting into smaller classes and getting more interesting every year.

The XJR has already been beaten by the E55 and the Quattroporte in a C&D comparo.

The M5 I predict will simply walk away with this segment. I mean nothing can really touch it in power and dynamics equally.

The E55 and new CLS55 will continue to play second fiddle to the M5 in the car mags.

The STS-V while nice isn't going to top any of the German cars, especially the M5, but it may beat a Jaguar here or there. With 440hp its a little light on power for this class. Imagine a car with 440hp being short on hp for its class! What a era we're in for hp. It will however provide the classic GM formula, lesser car for less money. I actually like the STS-V a little, I like the idea of a supercharged Northstar. Now GM needs to make this new 6-speed auto standard in all STS variants.

Jaguar knew the S-Type R couldn't compete with the E55 or the old M5 so they dropped the price down to E500/545i levels where it appears to be much more competitive. I still can't help but think that a 545i Sport with the 6-Speed manual is almost as fast as the 400hp S-Type R, but I haven't seen any numbers for a manual trans 545i. It is just a matter of time before the 545i becomes the 550i with a 360hp wallop.

What I'd like to see is the battle of the sultry sedans: XJR, Quattroporte and CLS55 AMG.

M

xkss · February 2005

It is too bad that the M5 isn't backed by the factory in racing like the Cadillac CTS-V, Holden HSV sedans, and Ford (of Australia) FPV sedans.

The M5 will just be a rich man's Subaru WRX. It has lost all of the style and class of the old M5s.

The Jaguar XJR is around the size of a BMW 7 series. The XJR obviously competes more with the big luxury sedans than with the mid-size sedans.

These two pictures sum up the new BMW 5 series:

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/2915-36-1.jpg

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/2915-36-2.jpg

xkss · February 2005

poorman · March 2005

Hi folks, first post. I am the prototypical wants more car than he can really afford guy. I'm currently in a Mitsu Eclipse Turbo with 205k on it. I'm more than likely purchasing something in June and there are many cars I'm looking at from the 05 GTO to the Legacy GT. One I'm looking at is my bosses 02 Jag XJR. He is a total neatnik and the car is immaculate. It has about 34k on it and I can probably get it (If I kick butt in sales...) for around 28k, which I believe is a pretty good deal.

I've heard that Jags are very expensive to maintain and I've even heard that you can't just go to Jiffy Lube and get a standard oil change, that you have to have an OEM filter etc. I'd hate to end up with a 500+ dollar a month car payment and then end up with super high maintenance costs. I know the gas mileage isn't the greatest, but it's hard to get a sedan of that size under 6 sec. 0-60 without using a little gas! Please fill me in on whatever you can about owning and maintaining an XJR. Thanks in advance!

xkss · March 2005

They don't have the potential timing chain tensioner problems of the 98-00 XJ8s. Check the XJR out at a very good independent Jaguar repair shop if you can. Check the seat rails as they can become loose over time and make the seat wooble.

pablo_l · April 2005

For what it is worth, I got rid of my XJR after only a year and a half. Great car if you don't care abiut being held accountable for $4k/yr in maintenance even during the warranty period. I did the math, and got a beater plus a Rolls Corniche that -despite it's reputation- it's only costing me an $1.5k/yr to maintain, with a higher uniqueness factor and far better interior quality than my '01 XJR... As fun a car as it was, I think getting rid of it was a good decision. Your motivations may be utterly different.

merc1 · April 2005

A reply just for you. Obviously a lot of folks feel like you do about the new M5 not having a row-it-yourself manual transmission. According to the May issue of Car and Driver BMW is going to do the right thing and offer a true blue manual on the U.S. market sometime after the SMG version goes on sale. You win!!!!!

M

xkss · April 2005

but, you still have to deal with the interior and exterior.

habitat1 · April 2005

Actually, I didn't win. After I first heard that the M5 would only have an SMG, I cancelled my order. Now since they made that announcement, I would be #6 at a dealership that will likely only get 2-3 per year. And that's sneaking me in the middle of the list. The larger dealerships in DC have a proportionally long wait.

I guess if I really have $90k+ burning a hole in my pocket, I can go for a new 911 S convertible. That wait is only about 9-12 months. Barring any growth spurts, my two daughters might even still be able to fit in the back seat by the time I get one.

P.S. I wonder if BMW executives actaully saw all of my ranting in Edmund's about "true" manual transmissions? Probably wishful thinking, but it is nice they responded to consumer feedback. If GM did a little more of that, they wouldn't be giving away their stock.

merc1 · April 2005

Aww shux no going back now huh? Nothing wrong with a 997 Cabrio either.

I doubt if any BMW execs read this board, but I'm sure others like you wrote/called/emailed BMW because the article I saw stated that this decision was made based on U.S. market BMW customers.

GM is too big to react in such a way as BMW. GM is just too plain larger imo, but thats for another board.

M

kyfdx · April 2005

habitat1... I attribute the change directly to your rantings... Good job!!

habitat1 · April 2005

kyfdx,

Thanks for the credit, as undeserved as it is. I have a feeling a lot of previous BMW owners and dealers made their opinions known. The sales manager at my hometown dealer wrote a pretty scathing letter questioning why the company would alienate virtually all of the past M5 owners who had no choice but a "real" manual transmission. He has been with BMW for over 20 years and owns an original M1, so my suspicion is that his "rantings" were given more weight than mine.

merc1,

I'll still shop around for the M5 to see if anyone has a shorter wait. But I must admit that once I consider the idea of pulling a $90k+ trigger, the 997 S Convertible has its appeal. Not to mention that the upcoming 550i 6-speed will come within 40 horsepower of the last M5 and be immediately available for ED in about 3 months.

android · June 2005

Finally got it all done. My little 4 door is a rocket. Went to the track for a little Bracket racing. After figuring out best way to launch this thing I managed a 11.87 128mph quatermile, much to the dismay of the viper that was next to me. Going to get a front spoiler to lessen the lift on the front end then its done.

merc1 · August 2005

Watch this:

Click Here

M

wildcat05 · August 2005

I really hate 2004 and 2005 body style of the jaguar XJ8. I would like for Ford to return it to it original european style. Ford are you listening.
If anybody shares my view please let me know. :mad:

:confuse: :sick:

xkss · August 2005

really hate 2004 and 2005 body style of the jaguar XJ8.

Do you know that the new aluminum XJ actually has styling cues from the first generation XJ?

If any new luxury sedan is vulgar, it would be the new BMW M5 with its side vents, Kia Rio taillights, and what not.

scottphillip · August 2005

Merc,
When will this come out in the USA? Should I get a 2006 E55 or wait??

habitat1 · August 2005

This is just my personal opinion, but the horsepower war that AMG seems to single-handedly being escalating in sedans is NUTS. I drove a 2005 E55 while my Acura was in for service a few weeks ago and if anyone needs more power than that, they really need to find out what is wrong with their self esteem.

What is not impressive is AMG's inability to do anything much other than goose their engines to 600+ horsepower. The SLK55 I drove at the same time was a sloppy excuse for a sports car compared to the less expensive, lower horsepower Boxster S. Compared to the new 911, it is even more of a joke. An automatic only transmission that shifts in manual mode like it's got maple syrup in the gear box??

Go ahead and get 700 hp in your sedan if you want to, but that one dimensional driving experience would get very old for me after about 3 stoplights. Personally, I'd suggest a E320CDI and a Boxster S on the side.

Again, just my opinion.

proe · August 2005

I got this link from AlSi at Superhonda.com, and it is a pitty that the new M5 is "annoying and fragile."

http://members.roadfly.com/jason2/TopGearE60M5.wmv

Have fun.

kdshapiro · August 2005

Who really cares what a review says. :confuse Have you read other reviews?

kyfdx · August 2005

Actually, I've seen that Top Gear video that discusses the M5..

The host spends about ten minutes trashing everything about it.... but, but, but.. then he pushes the button, that unleashes the extra 100 horses...

And, in the end, he proclaims it the greatest car ever!! (I might be paraphrasing a little bit...

). It is very humorous... typical dry British wit.

regards,
kyfdx

jb_shin · August 2005

Exactly what the other poster said about the review. Jeremy Clarkson, the topgear host always starts out in one direction and does 180 to make a point. Sometimes he will spend too much time doing that than making actual point, so I'd not judge the car based on his approach.

proe · August 2005

A piece of info that I found very troubling is at end of the show when Jeremy mentioned that when he drove the car on the track all the warning lights of DSC and other safety features came up flashing, and the car had to be towed after "Stick" drove around the track for the official time.

I mean you spend $90k+ for a car that is meant to be driven like a race car, yet in the back of your mind, you have this disturbing thought of what if the car decides to quit on me under "normal" driving condition at nowhere, then how am I going to get home as if it happened before.

All the reviews have been focused on the performance of the car, and the new 2006 M5 is still the King of the Sedan, and no one is saying otherwise. Somehow, I still feel like the quality should be better and the iDrive should be more Acura RL like.

kdshapiro · August 2005

You cannot buy the car, it probably is a pre-production model that got abused. Every car that gets slammed around like this, whether it be American, German or Japanese will have issues.

kyfdx · August 2005

Not only that... read a few C&D car reviews... "Oh yeah, we had to replace a clutch at 15K miles, due to our 0-60 testing runs.."

"We didn't get the full lap numbers, because on the second run, the brakes overheated and gave out."

Basically, no street car comes from the factory, with the capability to handle the abuse that car reviewers give it...

Ask anyone who tracks their car... Do they take them out totally stock? Not likely...

regards,
kyfdx

proe · August 2005

Basically, no street car comes from the factory, with the capability to handle the abuse that car reviewers give it...

Porsche 911 4S comes in mind from the long term test in May 2005 issue of C&D, and they mentioned that they did not have any problem of the clutch during the long term test after two clutch-slipping acceleration -test sessions.

Needless for me to remind you that BMW has gone though all of the abuses that could possibly happen, so it is all covered. It is a standard practice.

Ask anyone who tracks their car... Do they take them out totally stock? Not likely...

I have to agree with you if we are talking about Acura RSX or Honda Civic, but we are talking BMW M5, which is designed to be able to challenge Porsche 911. Tell me what are the modifications you need in order for M5 to run on the tracks?

proe · August 2005

You cannot buy the car, it probably is a pre-production model that got abused. Every car that gets slammed around like this, whether it be American, German or Japanese will have issues.

That scares me even more, meaning BMW is going to sell a product that is not going to be very reliable at all. :surprise:
The fact is people who buy M5 will not drive it like Accord, and they will abuse the car not once but every opportunity it presents.
Sorry, I forgot that they don't really care because they have money to buy another one if this one breaks down.

kdshapiro · August 2005

"That scares me even more, meaning BMW is going to sell a product that is not going to be very reliable at all. :surprise: "

LOL. And they'll sell every one of them, but I don't understand what you're talking about in general.

Through the years, I remember reading in the rags pre-production cars even high-end Porsches that have been used in this fashion have had issues. Even if this conversation was about a production car I would't be worried. The cars used in these tests gets abused. No car in the world is meant to take constant jack rabbit starts.

You have this incorrect. Every Porsche is meant to tracked first and used on the street second (maybe with the exception of the Boxster). Most BMWs are very capable on the track, but they are street cars. The 5 series is a street vehicle. The M5 is a street vehicle on steriods. Whatever capabilities BMW endowed it with is for bragging rights on the street only.

So I guess you're not going to be getting the new M5. :wink

awax · September 2005

I am in the Air Force and stationed overseas. I can order a 2006 M5 through BMWs military sales for delivery at any dealer in the US. I was quoted $83,000 for the 2006 M5 with every option available delivered in Jan/Feb 2006.

Since I can't visit dealerships in the US, I am having trouble determining if this is a fair deal. I have tried to phone a few dealerships. As expected, they are very cautious with telephone call inquiries.

Does anyone have any feedback for me? Good price? Are M5s expected to be a hot seller for dealerships? Limited supply?

My other option is to go with a 2006 550i for $63,000.

Thanks for the help!

kdshapiro · September 2005

"Are M5s expected to be a hot seller for dealerships? Limited supply? "

It's hard to tell whether the M5 will be a hot seller or not. My impression, only based on the musings of the rags, is it will be a hot seller. Unless you really need a 500hp under the bonnet, the 550 is the best luxury drivers sedan made.

kippcar · September 2005

Have a seller with an '02 E55 with, get this, 4700 miles. I had to verify with him three times on the mileage. Last service gave full verification. He is looking at the high 30's, which I believe is a decent figure. How is the reliability on these. Obviously, the press has been hammering MB and other German auto makers. I currently own an '04 ES330 with which I am totally disappointed (tranny) and will never buy that brand again. Anybody out there have good, bad or indifferent stories to tell on the service on this machine. Thanks, Kippcar.

blckislandguy · September 2005

I saw a new XJR today with the optional Sepang 20" wheels. Fantastic appearance, great performance, tasteful looking, etc. For someone who is looking at a 7 Series or, god forbid, an S Class, the XJR should be on your short list. I think the relative exclusitivity and more bespoke nature of the Jag is a big plus (every 50 year old dentist in the Northeast has either a BMW or a MB, so much so that it is a cliche).

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