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Comments
In the beginning Saturn was truly a different kind of car company, and a different kind of car. The company got off to a better start than GM ever imagined it would. The cars did extremely well for a small car safety wise, and their unique labor agreement as well as other invovative features such as polymore panels and other things created a loyal following. In 1994 Saturn was setting the world on fire. Since then it has been a slow steady spiral down. People wanted SUV's and Saturn needed new product. GM didnt have the money to invest in Saturn so they were left with their small car and fantastic sales process.
The good news for people who like Saturn is the new SUV has gotten extremely good reviews from the press and the redesigned S series looks to be a winner too. Sadly the SUV is a year away and the S two years.
I drive a 2000 SC2. It certainly isn't a screamer car but it is fairly nimble and IMO very fun to drive.
If you want to drive a real sleeper, go drive the V6 L-300. Its been clocked 0-60 at 7.2 seconds, and the midrange accelleration 40-70 really hauls.
For the "non gearhead" car buyer they are probably fine but I have grown to expect much more for my dollar and feel that for waht it cost, over $18K it does not deliver on total value.
I know this kind of critical stuff drives Saturboy nuts butthat is HIS problem not mine.
As to his zeees, mine are a lot longer than his and uniform in size. They were made by Ford, not GM. LOL. Merry Christmas Saturnboy we all still get a kick out of your rantings.
Floridian
The dullest car I test drove first was a 2001 Toyota Corolla. It's base price was more and they offered me less for my trade. Besides who wants to hear how eager some guy is to make a sale or have to visit with his closer and finally his manager before you can make a deal. One that your neighbor bought cheaper in the next town or that you sister had to pay more for the next day? Even Car and driver in their review admitted it was a bit dull. Here is a quote from Edmunds review on the Toyota Corolla, "Cramped and uncomfortable interior, mushy suspension, non-descript styling, lousy stereo ergonomics." The Echo started out with a better price, but add any options and it was right there with the Saturn. Plus with four people in the car you might have to pull over for city busses. From Edmonds, "Cartoonish styling, dopey gauge placement, lousy handling, deceptively low base pricing." Honda Civic was nice and in the price range if I was willing to fight with the man in the plaid jacket over final cost. But the Honda was also a bit cramped in the back. Subaru thought their cars were worth a whole lot more than I did. By the way, I was very disappointed in the fit and finish of the Corolla and the Civic. The Subaru as pretty nice however. Just one persons opinion.
Build Quality is a valid concern of many individuals interested in Saturn, and I can understand why some people are turned off due to semi uncomfortable seats,and such. I appreciate the polimier panels, ex, one time while driving I heard a loud thud, later only to find a new nick in the paint where apparently a rock had hit, if I had a honda Civic, that would have been a sizeable ding. Something everyone wants to avoid.
While I too like the idea of ding-resistant doors and a timing chain, I took floridian's post to mean that Saturn might seem like an atractive option for those who are not car enthusiast and are intimidated by the thought of purchasing and maintaining a car. I thought he was correct about that. True "gearheads" certainly would not need to take a class to learn how to change a tire or replace their oil. But that may certainly be comforting for someone who has never done it before.
The problem--and I am opening myself up to some more flames here--is that I think Saturn may take advantage of that situation. Perhaps that explains their arrogance with ridiculous answers like "a car is a machine" when somebody does have a problem.
I also agree that haggling over price is ridiculous and a major pain. However, currently there is no better system. I'm all for no haggle pricing--just make it a fair price. Thousands of dollars profit is an unreasoble markup on a subcompact car.
"The problem--and I am opening myself up to some
more flames here--is that I think Saturn may take
advantage of that situation. Perhaps that explains
their arrogance with ridiculous answers like "a
car is a machine" when somebody does have a
problem."
Do you think that you may be biased for having a bad experience with Saturn in the past? And Correct me if Im wrong, but it wasn't a Saturn you had a problem with? Simply how you were treated. I feel that If I bought a Chysler from a Toyota Dealer and no doubt had problems with it down the line, Toyota would laugh, and say "should have bought a Toyota", doesn't make that treatment right, but I can understand the mentality.
". I'm all for no haggle
pricing--just make it a fair price. Thousands of
dollars profit is an unreasoble markup on a
subcompact car."
The 2001 Saturn SL compact is around 400-600 profit, which is below the industry average. See for yourself at edmunds new car prices or www.saturn.com
The Classes to service your Saturn might not impress someone that already knows how. But the fact that they offer is a step in the right direction. A step many dealers could learn from. If more people were in tune with their cars maybe more people would take better care of them, don't you think? People have been complaining about how they are treated by dealers for years. Saturn and Lexus seem to listen.
All I want to point out is that once a dealer or manufacturer is willing to turn their head and show signs of paying attention to what we as customers are talking to them about they are worth giving a second look. I went to get a Subaru and they wanted to see just how much more money they could get out of me than they did the last guy. Didn't happen. Like I said. We have a choice, It is just that at this time only two offer honest up front sales people. I don't know if my Saturn is going to be the best or most dependable car I ever had. All I know is that a hole lot more people are happy with Saturn sales. In fact they were rated number one by JD Powers. The are rated as being better than half of the industry in dependability. And second only to Lexus in service. To me these reasons are more than GM hype, they are solid reasons. Maybe all the people that are happy with Saturn have a reason to be. From looking at the reports and studies and driving several other cars, I can see why. Hope your Ford gives you all the pleasure you expect.
GM fans should go to the Chevy dealer to get the better quality small car rather than the Saturn donut store.
Had mine for 2 years now. Not one single problem and the thing is built so good I'd swear it'll go for 10 years without needing any attention.
afk, when the edmunds had their car show here, I went and took some test rides in the (mid-size, was it?) class. I wanted to first test the LS Saturn and the attendant was clearly disparaging the car: "That is not a very good car. When you are done, I will recommend some good ones." He was right, the car was sluggish, had a large lean in the curves and was cheap looking throughout. He said the LS production has been cut back because Saturn can not sell them.
GM plans to replace it with another car from Pontiac which is unspecified at this date.
Boaz47,
I admit your enthusiasm is refreshing, but I can tell you from years of chatting here, very few people in here actually own Saturn's. Better off to talk with your local retailer and Saturn owners in the service department, I often come away feeling like I accomplished more by hearing Real Saturn owners , face to face, tell me they love their car and plan to buy another one. However, keep up the good work .
1. Profit. I suppose we are talking about gross profit. This depends on the car. The base SL has just over 400 in profit. The SL-1 has about 800. The SL-2 has 1100. SC-2 has about 1300. L-100 about 800 in profit. L-200 about 1200. L-300 also about 1200.
I wish there were 2,000 in profit. There isn't.
2. L series. You must have driven the 4 cyl L series. Consider that the V6 Saturn has the same engine as the Cadilac Catera, but weighs a whole lot less, does 0-60 in just over 7 seconds, (Faster than the MAXIMA automatic) and has a mid range acceleration that flat out hauls, I doubt you drove the L-300.
That being said, compared to a Porsche 911 it is very boring and has a lot of lean in the corners.
I think most, that are not "car guys" could care less about how a car is engineered, the design of the engine fit and finish etc. The for the most part look at the pretty paint, believe all the high buck TV promo ads etc and probably buy on price (read cheap)alone. if this is not the case how do we explain all the Escorts,Cavaliers, Sunfires, kias, Hyundais and yes, even Daewoos that cross the curb ?
People do not seem to care much for quality, since people are snaping up Hyundai's which score like 40 car makes below Saturn in JD Power and Associates in initial quality, www.jdpower.com Hyundai is not far behind from Daewoo's bankruptcy, according to news sources Hyundai has too much debt and is having serious trouble ridding it, if they go, everyone can kiss thier great warranty good bye as well as resale value.
Saturn still has the highest owner loyalty rate in the industry, which GM realized or they wouldn't have invested 1.5 BILLION in future product development, top executives at GM admit that Saturn is the best chance GM has at the future, and at drawing in younger buyers. To each his own.
Or can you not say that.
I haven't seen the numbers for this year, but usually the Prizm and Corolla are right up in the top 10.
If GM fans are really wanting to buy a GM small car.....they at least owe it to themselves to get past some of the Saturn hype and at least test drive the Prizm and Saturn side by side and then make a decision on what's the better car.
GM spends only 5% as much money I'd bet promoting the Prizm as they do Saturns.
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Chevy Prizm
3. Mitsubishi Mirage
Dec. 11, 2000
Saturn's variable transmission will start trend for GM
Lindsay Chappell
Automotive News
General Motors has bigger hopes for the European-built continuously variable transmission that will debut next year on the new Saturn Vue sport-utility.
GM plans to launch CVT production for other vehicles beginning in 2002. While the automaker is not saying how many models will get its new CVT technology, a GM source said it will at least go into the small Corsa line, which GM now builds around the world.
GM and Ford Motor Co. view the CVT as a way to increase fuel economy on vehicles with automatic transmissions and as a way to improve the ride of small-engine cars.
Both U.S. automakers are setting up factories that will deliver CVT systems to models around the world. A Ford joint venture with ZF Industries Inc. in Batavia, Ohio, will begin CVT production in 2002 to supply the Ford Mondeo and other vehicles.
Saturn Corp. will give the world its first peek at the GM technology. The move reflects Saturn's new mission inside GM.
The unit is increasingly becoming GM's global technology pioneer, putting to use components and concepts that are coming out of GM's far-flung world operations. Saturn said it will use technology from Honda, Fiat, Saab, Adam Opel and Aisin Seiki.
Starting this summer, Saturn will import CVTs from Adam Opel AG's plant in Sventgotthard, Hungary. The transmission will go into the automatic version of the new Vue with a 138-hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder engine.
CVT works on the same principle as an automatic transmission. But rather than automatically changing from first to second, or second to third gear based on pre-determined gear ratios, the CVT uses a belt-and-pulley system that seamlessly changes gear ratios.
Saturn has not revealed how many Vues it expects to sell annually, except to say it wants to sell 50,000 its first year. The Corsa is a much higher-volume product.
A CVT-equipped vehicle generally offers a 5 percent to 10 percent improvement in fuel economy over the same vehicle equipped with an ordinary automatic transmission.
"If GM fans are really wanting to buy a GM small
car.....they at least owe it to themselves to get
past some of the Saturn hype and at least test
drive the Prizm and Saturn side by side and then
make a decision on what's the better car."
Why should Saturn owners or GM owners allow someone else who has different beliefs to discourage us from buying the car that we chose for a wealth of personal reasons?
For your information, I have driven a 2000 Corolla CE with auto, and I have compared the Corolla to the Prism. I found the Prism to have cheap looking/feeling interior materials compared to the Corolla, and the chinsy Chevy bowtie emblem didn't go with the exterior of the car. The seats in the Prism seem to use a lesser quality fabric compared to Corolla. So, If I had to choose, I would buy the Corolla, which has better resale value then Prism.
The Prism isn't bad, However the Corolla offers more value to me. IF there wasn't Saturn that is. Im certainly not saying Saturn is perfect, because they aren't and no car/car company is. I am saying,that true Saturn owners will not be discouraged by others, and we realize the value of safety, low ownership costs, high service quality, etc.
In addition to the Saturn VUE SUV coming, new S Series in late 2002, and a pickup/sports car based on the soon to be defunct Camaro, We have more and more reasons to stay with the Saturn line, and I intend to.
No need to read into it more than you need to Saturnboy.
Saturnboy, howcome you don't drive an L-series?
True, I did have problems with a used car purchsed through Saturn, followed by problems with the dealerhship. However this was not just any used car that had problems later "down the road." It was a car covered under an extended warranty which Saturn sold me. IF they don't want to stand behind non-Saturn make used cars, that is all well and good. But, in that case, they had ought to stop selling warranties for them.
As I recall, over in the LS forum, you yourself even claimed to be somewhat dissastified about your Saturn service as of late and you were even contemplating writing the company a letter about it. You also said in the same post that you were thinking about buying a Ford Ranger
I do have an LS1 - now L200 in the family and I love it. The handling is superb, engine is quiet, and seems like a very solid car. I do not own one because at this point I have better things to put my $$ towards like mutual funds, stocks, etc, and prefer not to buy a midsize car since I have no need for one at this time.
Fredfred
I do not recall ever being "Seriously" disatisfied with my car or the service my retailer provides me. Granted, no retailer or car is perfect and things fluctuate from time to time, but over all I am pleased with it and do intend to aquire another S series in 4-6 months.
OhioLady
I am very sorry for your loss, it really shouldn't happen however Saturn makes no more lemons then any other american car company. Situations like yours as you claim, are exactly the reason why I lease cars, and because I can barely stand having a car for more then 3 years. You have a right to be angry, and betrayed for having Saturn supposedly treat you in such a manor as you stated.
AFK X said something along the lines that "Saturn owners have tremendous owner loyalty , and the one's who happened to get a bad Saturn often cry louder and longer because of the image Saturn has of high customer service. Definitly true.
Either way, I am glad that overall you are content with your service since that is what is important in the long run. It is also refreshing that you are responding in a much more sympathetic and civil manner to those such as ohiolady who do not share your enthusiasm.
Well, that is why I put the seriously in quotes to signify the difference. Just wanted to clarify, and I also mentioned that things do fluctuate from time to time and things are not always perfect at my local retailer. However, they have come through for me in ways Im sure other dealers wouldn't and overall I am more then satisfied. I wish all Saturn owners could have the same results, but Saturn retailers vary depending on the owner.
In 1999 when Saturn's customer satisfaction scores slipped five spots to number 6, Saturn Corporate enacted a corporate buy back of un friendly Saturn retailers to continue with industry leading customer service, and on a personal note, in my area they are soon to start building a new kind of Saturn retail facility which includes an even more user friendly atmosphere, fire place near customer seating, internet hookups and a coffee bar, not to mention an automatic car wash. Im seriously Looking foward to it.
I would suggest you go over to www.saturnfans.com and post your message there and ask them for suggestions. There are many helpful people there, and are experts in the subject matter.
Good luck!
(oil changes)
The two cars you brought up are exceptions rather than the rule.
I owned a 86 Civic, the engine "drank" about 2 quarts of oil between changes. This was when the car was 8 years old, with 86K milage. It had its oil changed every 3000 miles.
I'm about to purchase a '98 SL2 from the dealer, 63,000 miles. It seems lower on power than the 2000 I rented to check the model out, and has one minor rattle in the dash, but that's about all I can see in terms of flaws. Is there an easy way to see if the car has mechanical problems? Saturn owners seem to either think their car is God's gift to humanity or the blackest pit of hell, very little in between. I love the way the car handles, shifts, doesn't dent, etc. but the naysayers worry me: I accelerate and brake hard, hence the sport model, and I don't want to wind up with an oil-burning, rotor-warping nightmare.
---dennis.
If you are getting that SL2 for a good price (under 10K depending on equiptment) then you really can't go wrong. Its a lot of car for the money.
I can concur through our experience and others that I have talked with on the runarounds with the Saturn customer service people. We feel that they are put there to be nice but don't know anything beyond that and will not help with anything that is real.
But back to the oil problem;
the warranty ran out,
went to the Saturn dealer - was told the engine might have been improperly honed during manufacturing,
we still change the oil frequently,
we add oil every 700 miles (around town driving),
I looked into the one of the cylinders with a flashlight when I replaced the spark plugs and observed cross marks in the cylinder walls thereby concluding the oil consumption problem area,
we also did a "leak check" unlike a "compression check" which checks for any leaks in the engine cylinders and found that all cylinders were more leak that they should be but mostly worst from left to
right as you face the engine,
We now have 201,000 miles on the engine and it is still running great but we still need to check and add oil every week or two,
we can also say we have had very little else go wrong with the car - the dealer has always been fair - however,
We want a bigger car - the seats are too small!
There, I think I have said enough!!!
Anybody else have similar comments?
I can tell you that Saturn offers a hidden extended warranty on Saturn single cam engines up to 100,000 miles or 6 years if yours qualifies. Thier may be info at www.nhtsa.com however Saturnfans is my best bet
Thanks
I purchased the car in part because it was plastic and would not (presumably) rust. The metal parts of the doors (painted black) are rusting on the inside and outside of the car. I've never had a car with rust around the inside of the windows. The top of the car is also rusting. So much for the plastic.
The car constantly needs brakes, although I drive very conservatively. I have to have the rotors and pads (4-wheel disc, ABS) replaced every 10-15k because the rotors become warped. We had a Nissan Sentra (1990) which we drove 55,000 miles without having to even have the brake pads replaced. Same with a Chevy Cavalier.
Many of the plastic pieces on the interior of the car are breaking including the armrest and various dashboard pieces.
I see why Saturn sales have consistently declined each year after 1993-94. They had the best marketing and nicest people in the dealership. If those people could chauffer me around, I'd say they had a great product. People figured out that the cars aren't so great. Unfortunately, GM missed the boat and provided a product with much hype but little relative quality and value compared to other small vehicles, especially the imports. It's too bad--they had a pretty good idea.
For every Saturn owner with problems there a ton with none.
"My 94 SL-1 has 148,000 miles."
What does that tell any of you? Well, it says that while his car has had some problems it has lasted near 150,000 miles. He has started a crusade against Saturn in his mind, and has posted his "SOB" story on other well known Saturn sites. Somehow I fail to feel sorry for someone who's car has lasted near 150,000 miles and can't think of anything to complain about except plastic trim, etc.
For someone to think a car will be flawless at that mileage is clearly smoking something illegail. The easiest thing for him to do which anyone with an ape's intelligence could have figured out is simply get rid of your oh so problematic car, or deal with it. A smear campain from one person will do nothing other then prove that some cars are not perfect, doesn't prove anything with real data nor facts.
Rapidly Rusting Away,
toml7
The other day on my way to college the traffic suddenly stopped and the girl driving behind me could not stop in time.
She slid at least 40 feet before hitting the rear of my Saturn SL with her Plymouth Vogager. All of her antifreeze leaked out and her bumper cracked due to the impact.
There was no visable damage to my car and after having it further evaluated for undercarrige damage, there was NONE< ZIPPO, ZILCH. I happen to call this ADVANTADGE SATURN. I now reccomend to anyone unsatisfied with thier Saturn to buy a Chrysler product, with thier horrid crash test scores, and traditionally bad reliability and resale we shall see who's laughing years from now .
I respect someone who babies a car long enough to get that kind of wear out of it, but can't comprehend that they should be surprised at recurring mechanical difficulties.
If a car is 99.9% perfect in construction 17 parts will fail in its operation. It's man made. It will fail.
My experience with Saturn leads me to believe that everybody there has their heart in the right spot. It's an old saw in customer service, but some folks just will not be pleased. Think I've run across a lot of them here.
How long do you keep a pair of sneakers? Geez.
Notice the exhaust on a Saturn? It rust. It's stainless steel. What gives? Simple, it's not designed to look pretty so they make out of low grade tempered stainless. Works great, won't rust through, but will oxidize eventually. Like in a hundred years.