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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Pablo, I didn't mean any disrespect to you so please don't respond to me if you think what I say is incoherent.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    I think you'll find that people only defend themselves when they're being attacked. It's what happens when people stop discussing features and preferences, and attach personal values to the objects they possess.

    Glad you like your S500 -- may you live and be well (and never be "silly"!)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We have five more posts since I asked everyone nicely to get back to the subject and stop talking about other posters. I removed one of the five.

    All five make reference to other posters in some way.

    Further posts of this nature regardless of any other redeeming value will be removed. If you folks want to continue this discussion, you are going to have go back to talking about your opinions of the vehicles and stop talking about your opinions of other Town Hall members.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    To sum my point of view up after all this unneccessary uproar: I do think the New York Times' article's conclusion ridiculous. It was just to show that "the motor press" has no unanimous calls on any of this. And even when they do, follow their "recommendation" only if you think your own opinion irrelevant, which would be somewhat sad. But in essence:

    (1) I could be happy with any of these cars. They're all utterly top-notch, and it'll merely be individual preference and taste giving the nod.

    (2) None of these cars have any blatant weaknesses, or they'd simply not sell at all. They simply offer different value propositions.

    (3) If I could own 10 cars, all these brands would be represented in my garage.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I think comparing the BMW 7 to the LS430 isn't really appropriate. Both cars are aimed at different parts of the luxury market. The LS430 is aimed at Mercedes space. If there is a battle coming for the 7's space it will come out of Infiniti with the new Q which on paper looks like a remarkable car. I can't understand Audi's marketing of the A8. How can you make real money when you sell 2,000 cars in a market like the U.S. Either go after the market full fledge or get out. They seem to be half baked.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    BMW set out to win Merc's market when they came out with the 7-series, they did not create a new, different market. The fact they all have different value propositions does not mean it is entirely different markets.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    I never took delivery of a Black Cherry nor said I did...I had my first deal fall through in early March and just received my Silver LS on Friday. Black Cherry was never mentioned in my plans.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Both cars are aimed at differnt -parts- of the [same] luxury market. The sky is blue? The Lexus is similar to the Mercedes. I agree Infiniti is thinking of BMW buyers specifically- they have before. One might compare the driving dynamics of a Lexus with a BMW at bimmer.org, or whatever it is- ljflx is responding to a post I edited and then deleted in accordance with the guidlines given to us by our Host- I apologize for any misunderstanding.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I still think all these cars offer different value propositions for what basically is the same market. These are all *very* big luxury sedans, period. Every potential buyer considering one will consider *all* of these cars, then possibly eliminate a few quickly depending on his preferences. I've seen several people think for weeks about getting either the Beemer or the Merc, having eliminated everything else. They're not utterly different markets - in that case, such an overlap would not exist.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm not sure if you agree with me or if you are being critical. From what I see Mercedes is in the middle of both Lexus and BMW. Lexus buyers will seriously consider an S but probably not seriouly consider a 7. Why? Because most are not interested in the performance the BMW offers. On the other hand I don't think that BMW buyers are all that interested in an LS430 because they prefer the performance over the plush ride. But they will probably give an S serious consideration. Now don't get me wrong - this doesn't mean that a 7 doesn't ride nice or that an LS430 doesn't handle well. An S rides real nice but below an LS430 while it handles real well but below the 7. And therein probably lies the reasons why people feel their cars selections were the best at least among these three cars. Those who want the handling feel they have the best car in the 7 and those who want the ride feel they have the best car in the LS430. I'm not sure where that leaves the S except that it has the best blend and still commands the most stature. It seems that the car is gravitating more towards the LS430 than the 7 though.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    and is something all three give each other, in spades. Lucky us!
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    Interesting how long it's been that the Jag was mentioned in these discussions.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I think the Audi and the Jag guys need to come forward. The rest of us have beat this pedigree breed of cars up pretty good. I've had a good time here but I'm going to hang out on the LS board. My mother taught me a long time ago the most important thing is to just get your point across. Think I've accomplished that. There can never be any losers with cars of this quality and anyone who can afford any of these cars are winners and lucky people to begin with. Good luck to all.

    Pablo - we came close too that 1800 mark. Hope I was right that that was the bottom. Good luck investing.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Well, I am one of the Jag guys. But when I got the XJR, I was looking more for a 2+2 GT feel, and the XJR delivers that. people that go for a Lex or S-class think more about "rear accommodations", and though the Jag is beautiful inside, it simply can not compete at all when it comes to room in the back. That said, I am pretty confident the XJR is leagues ahead of any of the other cars in this discussion in dynamic behavior. Its magic lies in the fact that, performance wise, only stuff like the M5 or E55 put it in its place, yet luxury feel wise, only this class of cars competes with it in some special way. It's an entirely different category. It might not appeal to many people, but those who buy into the value porposition are very lucky. I know I am. :-)

    For all the talk about the Beemer 7-series being a "sportier" proposition, I personally feel those days are past. Both S-class and Lexus 430 are simply faster than the somewhat dated 740, whose taut character is more a sign of dated chassis than of performance-orientation. If you want performance, get an M3 or M5, really.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    The Jag is really in a class of its own, due to a whole host of factors. Let's all hope that they continue to be, because it's nice to have more obvious choices than which sedan has marginally better handling or more cupholders!
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I currently own a 97 BMW 750il and am looking to replace it within a few months. I have driven the S430, the LS430, and the 2002 Q45. All were impressive, and I wish I could afford one of each. :-) I've never had a Lexus, and am leaning towards purchasing one for that reason and the fact that I appreciate reliability and plushness. My BMW is a great car. I am just ready for something different.
  • mvargo1mvargo1 Member Posts: 298
    The Jag XJ8 is a different kind of car. Jags are about elegance and grace(and a little brute force if you go with the R). If you need rear seat accomodations buy the L or VDP. I believe the Jag is a much more emotional car than the others. It is one of the few that is designed to look good first and worry about silly things like aerodynamice second. In a world of increasingly similar looking cars. It is nice that there are still one of two brands that stand out.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Totally agree, but I do think the writing is on the wall, and the next XJ8 will go for the same design principles of the other cars here. From spy shots, the car looks like a stretched S-type, pure and simple - kinda inbetween a Merc E-class and S-class. I did buy the XJR because I felt it was one of the last chances to buy an original British luxury car design, with all the little quirks that come along.

    I am not a big fan of the L or Van Den Plas. The latter has an awesome interior, but somehow the stretch of the rear somehow takes away from the design, in my humble opinion.

    I do like the near 2 + 2 GT car philosophy of the XJR and the regular XJ8.
  • mvargo1mvargo1 Member Posts: 298
    the L and VDP do look odd and the handling is not as good, but that is the same as any long wheel base car. I think that the new XJ will look more like a large X-type than the S-type. maintaining the traditional Jag front with the oblong (rather than oval) grill and seperate headlights.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    develop a unique car for the long wheelbase versions. I remember the XK-E 2+2 was an odd looking duck too -- some shapes just don't translate well when they're extended like that.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Post 208, 7 Series board says:

    The car (2001 BMW 7 L) rides more like a sports car than a luxury car. It's just to tight and you feel every bump in the road. If I wanted a sports car I would have bought one.

    He or she talks about other cars owned including various American cars and a Jaguar.

    pablo1 writes: taut character is more a sign of dated chassis than of performance-orientation.

    With all due respect the 7 Series does have a different character than the LS430. It is performance oriented. The above post was upset that the BMW did not ride like a Cadillac. What is modern about that.

    Mercedes fans spent 10 years saying the LS400 was nothing but a fake LS400. Now a 7 Series is an inferior Lexus? Is the IS a more modern 3 Series?
    My advice is: do not believe that every cookie cutter cuts to the shape of a Lexus or the Mercedes it famously copied- if you do you might end up like the owner above with a car you hate.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    replying in kind to something you consider absurd is equally absurd.

    A taut suspension is not a sign of inferior design -- it's the direct recult of tuning the suspension more for handling than ride, and is something at which BMW excels. Even the vaunted Mercedes has so far been unable to duplicate BMW's wonderful mix of handling and ride. Lexus concentrates more on ride and NVH -- and excels at that.

    None of these cars are a fake anything -- they all reflect their creators' attempts to offer the finest luxury car possible in that price category, and they all succeed in some areas to the detriment of others. The BMW probably succeeds best overall, with a wonderful sense of balance, luxury, performance and ride. It also has styling that smokes the competition, in my opinion.

    The only thing that seems to stick in some peoples' craw is the similarity of the LS430 styling to the previous generation S-class. That's obviously not something that bothers the people who buy them..
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...how can the 7-series still be regarded as "performance oriented" when it is the heaviest car in this group and the slowest from 0-60? If it's sports prowess you want, go for an M5.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    In the test AutoWorld conducted, the 740's 6.4 came in a close second to the LS430's identical 6.4 (the Lexus edged it in the 1/4 mile), even though it outweighs the Lexus by more than 300 lbs. AutoWorld called the 740's drivetrain "to die for."

    The Mercedes came in well behind, at 7.1.

    Everything is relative -- in this group of cars, the BMW is clearly the most sports-oriented -- although it is no sports car, nor does it pretend to be.

    Look at me, defending BMW's honor! I crack myself up....
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    In every test I've seen, the MB S500 does 0-60 in 6.1 sec, LS430 in 6.3 sec (these agree with Lexus & MB brochures). Not bad for 4133 lb.(MB) and 3955 lb. (LS) cars. For my extra $$, I can beat the #$@% out of an LS by almost a quarter of a second!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    The BMW 740i, with automatic (which is what everybody seems to order them with) is decidedly slower than any of the other cars, including the Jag.

    Needless to say, none of these cars, even with stick, comes close to the XJR's acceleration. That said, *I* did not buy the XJR for "sports orientation". It would be quite a weird line of thought to buy any of these cars if one wants something that even remorelty resembles a sportscar. That is, again, M5 territory. Or get a real sportscar.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    Apples to oranges -- the S500 is a V12, is it not? And how much more do you have to pay for that option? Ditto the XJR.

    V8 to V8, the Lexus wins, followed by the BMW, with the Mercedes and Jaguar training badly.

    Sorry.

    PS -- when Lexus introduces its V12, we can revisit this comparison.
  • rexconde1rexconde1 Member Posts: 278
    no the S500 is not a v12
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    The XJR is entirely in the price range of the cars in here, if averages the Lexus to Merc range. The XJR is easily in the range of the BMW price-wise, and actually is *much* faster than any of these. 5.4s to 60 or so, if you believe mags. With 370HP and the lightest weight (though no lightweight), there is no doubt. But I am still not saying it is a "better" car. I am just saying that all in all, the BMW 7-series perception as the "sports" option is anchored in history, not in current product reality. Not that the BMW is not a great car.

    And the V12 is the S600 or CL600 in the Merc line. 500s are still V8s.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...you should really run the comparisons on cars.com before making such performance rankings. I know I did before buying.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    was repeat what the latest comparison test of these cars said.

    For the record, the cars tested were:

    Mercedes S430 with 4,3L V8, at $78,305
    BMW 740iL with 4.4L V8, at $71,070
    Jaguar XJ8L with 4.0L V8, at $65,950
    Lexus LS430 with 4.3L V8, at $61,171

    Those were the models that most closely approximated each other, price-wise. My point was that you can get better performance from all three European cars, but you'll have to pay more for it, thereby increasing the price gap between them and the Lexus. However, if performance is your bag (as it is mine), it would be well worth your while, I'm sure. Glad you like your car!
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    I'm glad this discussion came back to include the 7 series cars. Yesterday we dropped off the 750 for some service. This thread has really spurred my interest in the Lexus. So my wife and I decided to take a close look at one. They did not have the Ultra Lux version availible for a drive, we took the model one step below U.L. I had always argued that I liked the 7 series for its sporting nature and that the Lexus was too soft. Well after an extended drive I recind that arguement. What amazed me was that My 750 has a much smoother and quieter ride than the LS430. The tires on the Lexus registered every bump in the road, and the road noise on the highway was LOUD for a car said to be so luxurious.Honestly, I am not posting this in a attempt to stir the pot. My wife was also amazed at how loud (relatively) the LS was. I told the salesman that I was very much impressed by the way the car drove. It is a huge improvement over the LS400 in my opinion. But there is no way the Lexus has a quieter, smoother ride than my 750. This comparison includes the 750 running on 18" 50 series front and 45 series performance tires over Minnesotas spring potholes. I also like the BMW interior much better than the Lexus with the MB a distant third. I looked in the passenger foot well and there was an ugly white plastic duct that resembles a dryer vent. The ducts under the seats as well are too exposed and ugly in the LS. The myriad of rear controls on the LS ultra were pretty neat. Getting a massage in back is a cool little perk. What doesn't work for me are the rear seat recliners that reduce legroom as they recline. BMW does this better as well. At 6'3" I found rear headroom to be thin as well. I am spoiled on the LWB BMW. The NAV system on the Lexus is clearly the best on the market, I really like the voice prompts and the multi color display.

    I was VERY impressed with the Lexus, we may arrange a drive in the Ultra Lux. But I think I still prefer the BMW. The 750 is quieter, smoother, more powerful, better looking, and far more spacious. Crappy dealers and too many visits to them have spurred the consideration of the Lexus. I found the role reversal interesting, my conception of the comparison was very different before yesterday.

    And BTW the dealer told me the Euro Tuned suspension on the Lexus has been dropped. Is this the case? I would be interested in driving that one as well.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    says that the Lexus with the sport suspension rides more firmly than the Merc or Jag, but rated it tops for engine, road and wind noise; it tied for first on ride, with Merc. Interestingly, they said the BMW's fit and finish inside and out were bested only by the Lexus -- counter to your impression. And they did say that although the BMW's ride is the stiffest in the group, it never felt harsh. I wonder if the Lexus' tires had anything to do with the impact harshness you experienced.

    I imagine that the LWB BMW would have a more supple ride due to the longer wheelbase and greater weight, and would certainly have more legroom. It's a gorgeous car in any case. If BMW had the Lexus customer experience, they'd be unstoppable.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    Yes the tires admittedly did factor in. The Lexus was fitted with Bridgestone Blizzaks. I am still concerned though because I ran Michelin Arctic Alpins all winter on the BMW and never noticed THAT much noise. I also think the double pane windows fitted to the 750 made a substantial difference in wind and road noise intrusion. I don't think the double panes are availible on 740s and I know they are not on the M-B or Lexus.

    It wasn't that the fit and finish was poor by any stretch. I just didn't care for the execution of a couple of details.

    I agree wholeheartedly on the customer service end. While they were really kissing butt this time around, there was a reason. The last time the car was in for service they put over 300 miles on the car without clearing it with me. The guy that drove it moved in, new radio staitions, and power seat settings in memory. In addition the simple fact that it needs a dealer visit at all, as new as it is, bothers me. This is the trade off I willingly made though when I bought the car. I do wonder about a Euro Tuned suspension on the LS430, was the salesman correct, is it dead?
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I have a 97 750il and am looking to trade on a 2001 LS430. The ultra and "base" Lexuses I drove both had fine rides and were very quiet. The dealership did have two sport models on the lot.

    Service at my BMW dealership is O.K., but I have to visit too often. The last visit they reversed my power window button. Their loaner cars, if you can get one, are old, dirty VW Jettas.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    Did you notice much/any difference between the two suspensions? I know the Ultra is an air suspension.

    Maybe it was the tires. The only problem is that I would have to live with that noise 6 months out of the year. My 750 is pretty quiet on snows.

    Fortunately my dealer offers new 323s as loners. The other dealer in town sticks you in a Taurus. Pure purgatory after dropping off a 750.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    "Service at my BOW dealership is O.K., but I have to visit too often. The last visit they reversed my power window button. Their loner cars, if you can get one, are old, dirty WV Jettas."

    Sounds like you've got a really dim-bulb dealer. I honestly can't imagine a normal BOW (or any other luxury brand) dealer sticking the owner of a 750iL in a Jetty -- that's just pure stupidity.

    Brent: The EM Bridge stones on ALL Toyota and nexus products are universally abhorred. I switched to Sumitomos and never looked back -- my wife's Celica is next.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    I ran spell check on my last post, and it substituted BOW for BMW. Looks like Edmunds' spell check is a dim bulb too! LOL

    Oh yeah -- that's "Jetta" (not "Jetty") in the second paragraph and "OEM" tires in the last paragraph (not "EM"). "Bridge stones" was supposed to be one word (not a construction material), and the brand is "Lexus" -- not "nexus".

    Whew!!!
  • ddp3595ddp3595 Member Posts: 1
    I am thinking of buying a 94 320 S with 111,000 miles. Other than the miles the car is stunning...please give your thoughts on long term maintenance and what you think I can expect in terms of overall value. Are the miles too high??

    Thanks for your help!!
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    image


    About This Chat:

    Be our guest for an hour of Town Hall Chat Brake! Here is your chance to meet and greet other auto fans. This chat is for those of you who share similar interests, have questions and need answers, or simply want a place to discuss and debate your News and your Views of the auto industry. Bring your sense of humor and race on in to this NEW chat only on Edmunds.com!

  • benznutbenznut Member Posts: 104
    test
  • txraytxray Member Posts: 2
    Need 740 Info. My 735iL just got totaled by some inattentive fool. So I'm looking to replace with an early 740. Anyone out there know how long BMW had problems with the early V8's? Was it the whole 1993 model year or just the real early ones? Any tips would be appreciated.
  • urgentguyurgentguy Member Posts: 6
    News: BMW dumps its Vanos technology for Toyota's superior Vvt-i technology... for better fuel economy, smoothness and emissions


    toyota to supply 200,000 units in 2001, 800,000 units by 2003


    Toyota had already been supplying volvo and renault


    Will mercedes be next?


    http://auto.ascii24.com/auto24/e/2001/0406/e32nco_si0406_01.html

  • urgentguyurgentguy Member Posts: 6
    re:945

    goto http://530i.org to get more info

    from what I hear, even the alusil replacements for the nikasil block were not durable and were prone to premature failure.. thru 1999...

    I think this V8 was an hurried attempt to combat the onslaught of the lexus/infiniti V8's in 1990...

    and I think BMw still hasn't gotten it right...

    I wouldn't drive a BMW V8 or any BMW for that matter without a comprehensive warranty

    you might also wanna check out www.koalamotorsport.com(something like this) as well for more info
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    MB abandoned variable valve timing technology (which they used and developed for years) for variable length runners, beginning in 1997 with their all new line of engines (V6, V8, and now the V12). I highly doubt that they'll be using Toyota's technology anytime soon, even when their new direct injection gasoline engines make their debut for 2005.


    Drew
    Host
    Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    urgentguy,

    Nope. Mercedes won't be next.

    M
  • urgentguyurgentguy Member Posts: 6
    re: #948

    I dunno...

    Hyundai already incorporates variable valve technology in it's gasoline direct injection engine(4.5litre V8) and remember Diamler-Chrysler-Mercedes have formed a strategic alliance with Hyundai...
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Yes they have, I don't believe that it is for engine technology. MB will develop their own and debut it first. That was part of the agreement with Chrysler, for example, that MB's vehicles will always feature the new innovations first (ex. curtain airbags) before Chrysler's.


    Drew
    Host
    Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    image

    Just a reminder that the MB chat is on tonight (6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern). Hope to see you there!
    http://www.edmunds.com/chat/mercedeschat.html
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hi - I am PR Director for Edmunds.com and often am approached by journalists looking to talk with consumers for various automotive stories. Currently, I'm helping a major newspaper find consumers who are experiencing "gadget backlash." Did you buy a vehicle filled with exciting techno-gadgets, and wish you didn't? Have you given up trying to play a CD, set the ambient temperature or use the navigation system because the controls are just too complicated? Did you drive off the lot in your new vehicle without getting a full explanation of all the toys, figuring "how hard could it be?" and are now realizing it's more confusing than you could have imagined? What experiences have you had with the Mercedes joystick and the Volvo radio, both of which feature a lot of functionality but seem less intuitive than traditional controls?
    This story will touch on the following trends:

    -the gadgets in high-end vehicles from the Lexus LS 430 and Volvo S80 to Porsches and beyond

    -drivers in their 40s-60s buying sports cars

    -driver distraction

    If you have anything to add, we'd love to hear from you. Please submit your experience to Talk to the Press and/or to jfallon@edmunds.com, including your current vehicle, daytime phone number and city and state of residence. (Your identity will be protected at your request.)

    Thanks for your consideration of this opportunity to share your story!

    Regards,

    Jeannine Fallon

    Director of Public Relations

    jfallon@edmunds.com
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