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Comments
And adding another car just for kicks is a bit too expensive for me to justify at the moment. Especially a new one. Those beasts are expensive to service too.
But if I did get one it would not have a back seat, I would get it to be a fun impractical car to drive on twisty mountain roads or the track, not as a commuter.
But for now I will stick with cars that can do both pretty well.
Even the other Japanese companies have sports cars that can match or exceed the performance of Mercedes sedan, but not Toyota. Hmmm
Get real, buddy. They have very little in common. The US government classifies cars as follows:
LS - class: large, volume 123 cu ft (passenger+cargo)
C55 - class: compact, volume 101 cf
E - class: mid, volume 111 cf
S - class: large, volume 121 cf
Which is the LS close to, again?
They don't have one, not in the sense of a AMG or M type. How many MB owners have AMGs anyway? 1%? 2%? Your question matters to them. Not to anyone else. Why continue to slam Lexus for not having an AMG-type offering? You don't even drive an AMG yourself.
show me that model that blends thrilling driving excitement with luxury and comfort that carries the Lexus nameplate
Two more months and you can buy an IS350. But some germancarfans (not merc1) are so closed-minded that they just "know" that Lexus is boring and tomblike, and such people won't even pay attention to the reviews as they come out, much less test drive the car.
BTW, what do you think of the Infiniti G and M?
If you want performance out of the S, you can get it, you will pay for it but you can get it. How about the LS? Hmmm, nobody has answered my challenge. Lexus and Lincoln really must be the slowest luxury car lines sold in the U.S.. And that from the greatest car maker ever, amazing.
OK, here are the government interior volume data:
LS - 107 cf
C55 - 89
E - 97
S - 106
IQ test: Which MB model is the LS closest to?
I never said that. Perhaps someone else did.
But I don't think anyone on this board has ever said that Lexus is better than MB at everything...such as producing AMG-type performance vehicles. They don't compete there, as I think is pretty obvious.
So you've proved that Lexus has failed at something that no one had even tried to claim as a success for them. Good for you.
So all of you who have pretentions of your Lexus being a performance car, get over it, they are not, and they are not meant to be.
I hear good things about the G but never driven one, but I certainly like them more than Lexus or Lincolns and would consider one. The M? hmmm, not crazy about the styling but again I have very little personal experience with them so I don't know. And they really aren't the type of car I like.
But Nissan, Honda, Mazda and Mits all have better performance creds than Toyota.
It would be interesting to see sales volume:
Lexus LS + GS430 = ?
Mercedes S + E500 = ?
they have anything comparable to the AMG
Agreed, but they haven't exactly tried in that department.
the slowest lux car line. Admit it.
Well:
S430, 0-60: 6.9 sec
LS430, 0-60: 5.9 sec
Surprised?
Now I do understand that I could buy an S600 or S65, but at what price?
They are not building Lexus for performance enthusiasts.
Agreed. Lexus emphasizes luxury, BMW performance, MB is somewhere in the middle as a company. Since you keep beating up Lexus on performance, why aren't you a BMW fan?
Toyota is very good at what they do but I do find it annoying when Lexus fans look down on everyone else, like we are fools for buying a different make.
Maybe someday Lexus will build something I will like, but the current lineup. Toyota is a very good company but I think they need to spruce up their line up a little. Their cars are getting a little too conventional. Just my opinion, but it doesn't seem that they have any competitors in the excitement category like the Mustangs, AMG's, the Mit Evo, Subaru WRX, Nissan Skyline, BMW M's, caddy's XLR etc. Where is Toyota's entry?
0 - 60 mph : 5+ sec.
I think many posts ago I said that is their business plan. For Lexus replace practical with luxury and you'd have that one right to. So what's the big deal. They are a both a practical and luxury car company that makes excellent cars. MB makes better performance sedans than Lexus, but you seem to always have to go to the AMG to prove your point. Hmmmm. You do realize - I hope - that AMG represents 1.5% of global MB sales with an annual volume of 15,000 cars sold (again that is worldwide). BMW makes better performance sedans than MB. Does that make BMW a better car?? In your mind I guess so. If not than your points about MB performance don't hold water.
Now - just watch how MB is about to become a practical luxury car maker again under their new CEO because this whole performance/youth/hi-tech/slick car strategy has failed them badly. Or do you think they are going to stay the course and not change anything?
Your posts about C-class cabin size are hillarious though. I mean if you are going to pick something to make a point at least pick something that is arguable instead of something that is so obviously wrong. What are you going to say next that a beetle is more roomy than an LS430?
That's a tie with the LS430.
(And I am getting sick of seeing them, every one seems to have one, friends family neighbors, they are everywhere! And they all have the same look.)
And I like the performance of my Benz and the interior seems a bit nicer than the BMW.
And the only reason why I mention Lexus' performance is because that has been my point all along, but people jumped all over me when I mentioned it. It seemed like people were denying it I never denied that Lexus makes fine reliable cars. And I am not surprised why they are so popular.
And I am not surprised by the 60 times, (I looked them up when people jumped all over the S) again I never really looked or studied the LS and for the S I would look at them at the car dealer when I was there or read about them once in a while but never studied them or the competition seriously because I haven't considered buying one. I do have an uncle who has one but never drove it myself and none of my friends own an S. I do admire the S for what it is,and it is Mercedes flagship car. I have never really paid too much attention to the LS, It has never been my cup of tea, they have never excited me, but I do have a new found respect for the LS now, but both cars are not my kind of cars and I don't want to own either. But both are fine autos and I can see why people who own them are proud of them.
E500: 5.8 sec;
LS: 6.4 sec;
S430: 6.8 sec.
But it’s not the point. My point is that Lexus LS competes with Mercedes S & E500. LS sales volume compared with S-class only does not really mean anything.
-The quality continues to improve for mercedes-benz
-Schremp and Cordes are GONE, and can take their megalomania with them. Zieche should only be a huge catalist to the rise back up. So I'm optimistic...
Laughable stretch....Get real buddy. We are talking High End Luxury Marques here not E class, unless MB fans think an E qualifies in the same class as an S !
I also agree that some people will cross shop the LS against the E. And when you look at cars, MB outsells Lexus...for now. But if you look back a few dozen posts, you'll see that Lexus is gaining market share in cars vs MB, having grown 45% to MB's 20% since 1999.
Nevertheless, point regarding this board title is well taken.
P.S. recently my friend asked my opinion regarding new car purchase. We took a look at: Audi A6, BMW 545, MB E500, Lexus LS (basically the same price range). The winner is E500 (though it was not my choice), because friend of mine values luxury feel more than anything else. But I guess it’s irrelevant now. I’m officially off.
LS: 6.4 sec;
S430: 6.8 sec.
Wow, a 5L V8 motor vs a 4.3L V8 motor with different time to 60mph .... and the point was ????? Simply ridiculous !!! Methinks this line of debate is well worn and time to move on.....
And a $15k Yamaha motorcycle will trump any AMG car in 0-60. What's the point of such apples-to-orange comparison? C class is not high end luxury at all.
The best selling Lexus, the RX, is a wagon. Lexus hardly offers any other wagon (IS SportCross sales is miniscule thanks to the old IS platform lack of luxury for the price). If wagon numbers are similarly taken out of MB sales, it's not entirely clear MB sedan sales alone outnumbers Lexus sedan sales.
Lexus is ahead based on SUVS and a the popular ES330, a car no other foreign car company even considers competition.
The ES is more luxuriously appointed than almost all C class cars (and the majority of E class for that matter) out there.
The majority of Audi, Volvo and Saabs out there are FWD, too, and often not as luxuriously appointed as the ES. The majority of MB's and BMW's on the road and sold today are not as luxuriously appointed as the ES.
Not true at all. C class starts at a price point significantly lower than that of ES; as we know, the low end is where the volume is.
There's also the funny business about leasing: say a $50k MB gets leased at 0% interest rate (for the sake of simplicity), generates $20k lease payment in 3 years; then gets auctioned off for $20k instead of the $30k farcical "residue." How much is the car really worth in the market place? $40k not $50k. Most MB's are leased nowadays thanks to MB' policy of factory subsidy of lease residue. It's nothing more than robbing Peter to pay Pau (booking the extra $10k sales in an early year only to have loss show up in the credit finance department 3 yrs later); the financial balance sheet will look even worse when the chickens come back to roost. The unwary first-time MB lessees will also be royally upset if and when they need to get out of a lease early or over-mileage.
DeVille DTS is $52k. Your illustration is off. What's so hard to understand that moving mechnical parts make noise? Of course a $50k RWD is going to have sound deadening material wrapped around the moving parts. RWD however has nothing to do with refinement like you wre making it up on the fly.
And uniformed one, let me try to explain this again, rear drive cars can place its front wheels farther to the front of the car than front drive cars. Front drive cars have to have the front axle positioned under the engine
Uninformed one, have you ever heard of Mini or A class? both have very little over hang in the front; far less than S class, for example. "Do you just make stuff up because it sounds good?" back at you, "uninformed one" (is that someone who wears uniform ;-)
And you are mistaken about the condition of my 190 if you think a base ford focus can beat my 190 on an autocross course.
Autocross performance has zero to do with ride quality. Is this "luxury" forum or boy-racer forum? it's pretty sad that you have to pick "base ford focus" on autocross as you know damn well that the old beater can not hold a candle to a modern econobox in ride quality like I said.
Are you serious?? Do you also dream that your econobox C class is close in cabin size to the flagship S600?
I can't think of a single Lexus car model as slow as C230, C240, or E320, the top three sellers in the Mercedes line up in the US over the past few years, combined accounting for over 60% of all MB cars sold! Think about it, over 60% of all MB cars sold in the US are slower than the slowest Lexus! The worldwide picture gets even worse, with all the gutless A-class and E220 taxcabs.
If you compair a LS430 ULTRA...With ANY Mercedes S class under $100,000 the LS wins in almost any catagory you care to mention.
The fact you need to Bend The criteria of LS vrs S....Speaks Volumes.
When LS comes out with a 4 or 500 hp Hybrid...Does your comments mean you will walk over the S to Buy one because it will now be the fastest.
If the new S is a Technological Marvel ....They better Double their service bays...
I have already, shown you a Lexus that is faster then the comperable Benz, the Mercedes S under 100,000 is slower then LS...
0-60 in about 5.9 sec for the LS and 6.1 for the S with 40 more Horses...That of course, assumes the S is in full operating order...We must be fair.
The article pretty clearly "connects the dots" as oac would say. Here's some salient quotes:
"Beset with humbling quality problems, a money-losing small car business, and high production costs, Mercedes has gone from being the global benchmark for quality and one of the most profitable auto makers in the world to a money-losing shambles. For the first half of 2005, the premium carmaker lost $1.1 billion. Clearly, Zetsche will have his work cut out turning Mercedes around."
"Worse, the quality fiasco has taken a heavy toll both in Europe, which accounts for 76% of sales, and in the U.S., where the auto maker sells 21% of its vehicles. Mercedes' European market share slipped to 4.2% in the first half of 2005, down from 4.5% for the same period in 2004."
"Wooing back customers will also mean putting some zing in the model lineup. New models are in the pipeline, including the vaunted S-Class sedan, which will be unveiled in September, and the new M-Class sport utility vehicle -- and not a moment too soon: Sales of two of the company's key profit engines, the E-Class and C-Class, have plunged 30% to 35% this year, buffeted by reports of quality problems."
Boy, does Zetsche have a big job cut out for him. The question is will Cordes stick around to be part of the solution.
I doubt you'll see Cordes back. He's a cost cutter more than a visionary from what I've read and I'd expect that Ford or GM will snap him up. His work is cut out for him at Benz if he came back or the other two if they offer him a job. Better to accept the top job at a bigger company than a secondary one at a smaller one that just passed him over.
Very well put. MB is "better" than Lexus for the 1.5% of people that buy AMG vehicles, where Lexus doesn't compete. But is it better in mainstream luxury vehicles?
This is another interesting tidbit as it refutes another point some on the board make, that being German car buyers will put up with problems and make reliability a lesser issue. Again this is certainly true at Porsche and to a large extent BMW. But MB has never really attracted the performance buyer. So a blanket statement like that is hardly accurate.
But here's what I've been trying to put across to Merc1. You read a story like that and you still have no hesitation to drop $60-100K on one of their cars? Merc's point is historic MB buyers will not be influenced or may not even know. How? It's everywhere. But let's just say you are one that has been hit by the recalls, the repair bills and the inconveniences of seeing dealer serrvice too often or know a few too many people who have that experience. Still no hesitation? I doubt it because the capital requirement is far too heavy. I think a hidden problem in all this is that MB has lost some core customers at the top end and gained some entry level lux customers who always aspired to own a Benz at that low end. But now its not the quality brand of its past legacy. Proof - I have none but I'd bet a lot of money on it.
Syswei - this is why I made the statement last year or last winter that MB would lose its throne status position in the future. I still think both BMW and Lexus will pass them in a few years. I said at the time I thought the problems would get much worse. I think they are heading for worse times still. You'll likely see some hairdressing in the next two quarters - usually played out with adjustments in intercompany charges and things like that - to make the new CEO look good. I know as I've been there and done that and it happens with all internal charges to prop up an ailing divisions profits. But that is not sustainable and the business will have to break through at some point.
Well certainly in pure unit sales they've already been dethroned. As far as prestige, well I agree that it could happen, but imho it will take more than a few years. Brand equity built over a 120 year period imho would probably take more than 10 years to be destroyed. There is still time for MB to get its act together.
But now that Lexus is one of the Big Boys, I think the road ahead will be much more difficult. When you are the benchmark in many people's eyes, mistakes are not forgiven easily. You are expected to lead, not follow (not saying that they are following in everything, but we all must admit they followed MB for years just to get established).
Lexus is flush with cash, but that is not always a good thing when it comes to innovation and customer service. It seems to me that the fat cats always forget what got them there and find a way to somehow blow it.
The competition between the luxury makes have resulted in some truly wonderful automobiles in just the past few years. I hope this trend continues 'cause we consumers surely benefit from it.
Dog Days at Daimler
I was truly interested in Merc1's impression of the article, but he had already responded to it there-- sorry, Merc1, but I'll leave it to you whether you want to say something different here or just repost your previous response on LPS here for those who don't follow the other forum.
As a LEXUS owner...I don't expect LEXUS to lead in anything but quality... l like the idea that they study new innovations..Perfect them and THEN put them in their cars..
In those cases where they do HAPPEN to lead I expect NO loss of quality...Hybrids are a good example...if they make a Hybrid LS...It better be perfect...
As to the looks of the car...I don't want a space ship...I don't want Ugly...I want a nice conservative timeless design that I would get tired of looking at in a couple of years.
The Cars Attribute..I bought an LS...I want luxury...A great sound system, A nice comfortable smooth and quiet ride...All the proven safety features...and Electronics that are easy to use and understand...LIKE THE LEXUS GPS system, and the radar/laser cruse control. I don't need a race car but it has to handle well and lexus definately does, Without sacrafice to that Smooth Quiet Ride. I want an attractive comfortable interior...I like wood and leather...Don't like Crome or Aluminum or stainless steel, it is too cool feeling...I want to be at home in my car Comfortable and pampered in every way....AND LEXUS DELIVERS...
If Lexus ever gets caught up in the Rush technology to the market race they will sacrafice quality...and without the quality they might as well be a lowly Mercedes.