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M
BTW for all the criticism I've read about a manual tranny being offered only on the IS250, not the 350, I noticed that the AMG cars (at least the C55 and E55 that I checked) don't seem to come with a manual option either. I think that Lexus learned with the original SC300 and the first IS300 (and as the MB/AMG folk presumably know)....not too many people actually want a manual. I guess that leaves people to buy BMW Ms.
I never said: “what kind of historian/enthusiasts would care about the Isetta”.
Read it more carefully. It says “ Isetta sale volume”.
Big difference
So let me get this straight, historians and enthusiasts should have cared about the Isetta but not its sales volume?? The fact that Isetta was a pissant little car was more important to BMW's survival and legacy rather than the sales volume which enabled company to survive?? Makes no sense
Probably I’m wrong about historians the bookworm type
You certainly are wrong, on historian, or on bookworms, or on wordsmiths.
In other words, you can not provide a formative definition for "a long time." FYI, it takes more than half a decade to set up a proper dealer network in a market as large as Europe. Lexus has been in UK for three years, and only setting up shop across the continent in the past year.
Correct. The manual tranny market is a small one. I personally can't see any Benz owner wanting to row their own gears, outside of the C and SLK models. Now their AMG versions (SLK55/C55) should have a manual option imo, but the E and above, there would be little or no market for it, at least in the U.S.
BMW was going to only offer the new M5 (and M6) with a SMG tranny only, but the uproar was so great that they're developing a true 3-pedal M5/M6 for the 2007 model year.
What I think would be perfect for AMG is a DSG style transmission. I'm surprised Mercedes has not come up with one yet. A DSG-style gearbox would really be a nice option for a car like a E55 or SL55 imo.
I doubt if Lexus could ever change me to "Lexus1", but the IS350 is a curious piece. It just may be the second Lexus in their history that truly appeals to me.
Also, the IS350 is getting knocked for lack of a manual mainly because the market in which it competes manuals are offered by all but one of the IS350's competitors. Even the C350 offers a manual. Last time around the IS300 got knocked in the press relentlessly for not having one and most people just knew Lexus wouldn't repeat that "mistake" again.
M
http://www.gmcard.com/GMCard/apply/redeem/allowances.jsp#2005
So for any interesting vehicle, it's either excluded (Saabs), or limited to about $1000. I'd have to be buying a CTS, STS or SRX every year to use up the points! Too good to be true. At least with the Lexus Card, the 10% limit translates to a whopping $5700, although you'd have to spend $380k to get there! ;-(
"FYI, it takes more than half a decade to set up a proper dealer network in a market as large as Europe."
Lexus and Infiniti don't treat all markets the same. On the continent, Germany and France are seen as the keys. Of the emerging markets, China, Russia, India and S Korea are the keys.
M
My point was that many people in my circle do NOT want an MB, and it no longer holds the mystique it once held, at least for people I know. ANd the sales factoids backed up that assertion, hence I quoted these for you, just in case you don't believe me. It is crystal clear that less people buy MBs today than they buy the competition, especially Lexus. Yet you continually do not want to connect the dots between MB's downward sales trend relative to its competition (esp. Lexus) and its fall from grace showing it is NO longer the *must have* car for the high-end lux buyer.
Look at it objectively. How can MB be the #1 brand when it sells way less than its competition ??? According to syswei, extrapolating from YTD numbers, Lexus will outsell MB by a whopping 40% by year end !!! Now, if MB were a niche player like Rolls Royce, or Ferrari or Porsche, then we can say sales does NOT matter, but being a mainstream seller and MORE buyers prefering other brands to MB shows clearly their falling stature. You may choose not to see what I see, and choose not to infer what I infer... that's your choice. My point is clear and backed up with those sales factoids either YTD or going back 6 years....
'nuff said...
>>> in the past year.
I’m kinda tired of your misinterpretation of the facts.
Where did you get your information??? I wonder...
I thought you loved different interpretations since you defined "a long time" as "as opposed to recetly." Talk about totalogical definitions.
Now can we move on?
The new S seems to look better when you see it in pix from above rather than at ground level. It hides the wheel arches better and that may be why it looks better. I don't know if they purposely shoot the pix that way to better emphasize the style from a favored view (I note that every pix I've seen from an above angle also shows a dark car) or they are just trying to show the car from many angles. As Merc stated - if the car misses in brilliant silver than it misses the mark as an MB. Lastly I think MB did a good job - despite the fact that I'm not a fan of this new style in pix so far at least - of again hiding the true bulk this car has - despite the wheel arches.
Bingo! That is your circle, but the sales numbers still say that MB is the #1 choice for the high-end buyer any way you want to slice it. Whether or not you agree with it or not, whether or not it is deserved or not, it is what it is. It the same thing about my circle when I said most people I know see Lexus (except the RX) as being an old man's car, but actual proof was given showing that overall Lexus buyers are younger and MB's. My perception of the brand didn't equal the reality. Same thing with your statement about MB and high-end buyers. You stated that 50-80K is the proper price range and that is where MB rules and the numbers I gave earlier prove it. That doesn't even include the SL, CL, SLR and various high-end AMG products. You can't make the judgement about MB not being #1 in status or high-end sales if you're only going to look at some of what they sell. When Lexus comes out with similar high-end versions of the next LS, and that sports car you'll all of a see what I'm talking about. All of a sudden the price range that matters will become wherever Lexus tops out at, be it 100K or whatever. Or, put it this way...if Lexus comes out with a 85-90K version of the next LS it outsells the 750Li and S500 that won't matter because its over 80K? Or will you then stretch the price bracket to include that Lexus?
Look at it objectively. How can MB be the #1 brand when it sells way less than its competition ??? According to syswei, extrapolating from YTD numbers, Lexus will outsell MB by a whopping 40% by year end !!!
Easy, because overall sales aren't the end-all like you make them out to be. Sales is just one component of status or prestige, which is what I'm saying MB is #1 in, not total overall sales. You are switching up between who is number #1 in prestige vs who is just #1 in sales, and it isn't the same thing. You put sales as the #1 thing just because Lexus is #1 right now. Now if Cadillac passes Lexus in sales will that make them a more prestigious brand to you? Most likely not. Then you'll look at other aspects of the prestige question. You down play price like it doesn't matter. Mercedes sold over 13K SL's last year for at least 85K a pop. Now if you're going to get into a subjective thing like status then you have to look at everything and not just a simplistic look at who sells the most overall.
You may choose not to see what I see, and choose not to infer what I infer... that's your choice. My point is clear and backed up with those sales factoids either YTD or going back 6 years....
Problem is you haven't given any factoids about MB not being the #1 choice for the high-end buyer, only a bunch of irrelevant things about sales overall, which wasn't the issue, nor is what you've given the sole indicator of prestige or status. You also ignore that over those 6 years you keep talking about MB went from 100K to over 200K in sales, at higher prices overall than Lexus, but to you price doesn't matter. I mean all luxury brands should grow at the same rate no matter what their prices are? That is being "objective"?
If you want to say that Lexus is #1 sales all day long, no one will disagree, but the majority of those sales are the ES and RX, both sub-50K vehicles. Those are not high-end products, which is where I disagree with you about MB not being the choice brand, not overall sales.
Again, if you have the numbers to prove that MB isn't the #1 choice for the high-end buyer (which you estimated to be between 50-80K), and/or that someone else is, I'd love to see them.
M
Man you said a lot there, thanks. You know I'll call it like it see it, even with the new S-Class. I too have seen a lot of pics in which the wheel arches are better proportioned. I don't even have a problem with the front arches, its the rear wheel arch where it meets the rear doors is where I think they could have done a lot better. Mercedes house of styling has turned out some less than stellar efforts in the Maybach and 2003-2005 CLK, and I'm worried about the new CL. I don't see how those spy shots will result in a better looking car than the current one, which is perfection in my book.
I've wanted to drive the IS350 every since I saw it has 306hp, a lot of power for a car of that size. It should be a real hoot. It has 4 more horses than the 1998-2000 C43 AMG!
BTW, "Brilliant Silver" is being phased out. It is now "Iridium Silver".
M
There is a problem with counting numbers entirely on sales price. $57k buys a Lexus that is every bit as good as any MB south of $100k. $57k can't even buy a piece of crap stripper S class with V6, which starts at $60k. The reality is that MB is never gonna get that $60k because all those cars are leased with a la la land residue of $40k, but at auction time after lease turn-in the cars will be lucky to get $30k. In other words, MB is marking a sub-$50k car ($20+30k real residue) at $60k for MSRP knowing full well that the book will have to be reversed after lease. The market knows very well that MB's are not worth what the MSRP say they are; that's why most MB drivers lease. It's all a financial game that will come back to ruin MB when sales volume dips (ie. when the cooked income from the fake extra sale is no longer sufficient to offset the time-delayed book adjustment to fit reality when the finance department takes back a car that is worth substantially less than the projected residue).
No need to worry; none of us here is buying the new CL. I'm considering a four-seat convertible for my wife, preferrably with a folding hard top. The choice seems to be either an SC430 or an IS350 if they ever make one. The thing is that she's already pregnant with our first baby; not sure if I want to keep a convertible after baby birth. If only MB and BMW made reliable cars . . .
What they put in the back of the SC don't even deserve to be called "seats". Just try to sit even a 8-year old back there.
Actually, why not? As long as the price gap between MB and Lexus is constant, why shouldn't MB grow as fast as Lexus? Now, if the average gap used to be 15% and then went to 50%, of course you'd expect slower growth from MB. But if the price gap has been fairly constant (and no one has shown otherwise), there is no reason to expect a different growth rate.
Here's some evidence. We all know that the overall luxury vehicle market has grown quite alot faster than the total U.S. vehicle market, despite luxury vehicles obviously costing more than the average vehicle. Doesn't that suggest, that if price gaps are constant, price shouldn't constrain growth rates?
The fact that Lexus has grown faster than MB in the past 6 years has little to do with price, because Lexus has always been cheaper. It has to do with people's view of the desireability of Lexus vs MB....and in recent years that has been impacted primarily, imho, by MB's quality issues.
What a stupid name. Outside of a few geologists and metallurgists, who even knows what Iridium looks like?
Personally the association I make with iridium is the extinction of the dinosaurs....the 'iridium layer', thought to be from a meteor impact, is associated with that mass extinction. Not a smart marketing move to hook one's brand to the dinosaurs.
It will mostly be for the dog, and some bags and suit cases for the two of us. Wife wants a convertible some point in her life . . . we are both just past 30, and are about to have our first child . . . looks like it's either now or after a 20-yr wait till all the children are off to college. By then, we will be in our 50's, not to mention a really long wait.
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The hardtop is so wonderful that my wife will never even consider another ragtop.
The convertibles lexusguy recommended are nice, but the cockpits did feel a bit cramped. They do merit a good look though.
Lastly, the SC is definitely NOT boring to drive, as long as you don't expect it to handle like a Porsche. The fact that you are considering it suggests that you value a softer ride. I would rather take the Pacific Coast Highway from Monterey to Big Sur in California, on a beautiful sunny day, in the SC over just about any other car. That is what it was made for.
Because at some point you get into the upper reaches of the market and there are fewer buyers, that is common sense to me. Also, has the price gap between MB and Lexus stayed the same model for model since 1998? I seriously doubt it. Despite Mercedes saying they've changed their price structure since the mid-nineties, their cars are just as expensive as ever. How you can ignore every MB priced above 70K (where Lexus tops out) and say it doesn't matter is beyond me, and I'm not talking about 4 or 5 models either.
Mercedes has grown also, everyone knocking them seems to forget that. No credit is given for having gone from 122,265 in 1997 (first year they broke 100K BTW) to 221,610 in 2004. Does this match Lexus? Of course not. Did they grow, yes.
The fact that Lexus has grown faster than MB in the past 6 years has little to do with price, because Lexus has always been cheaper. It has to do with people's view of the desireability of Lexus vs MB....and in recent years that has been impacted primarily, imho, by MB's quality issues.
You say it has little to do with price, but how do you know this? I mean where do you draw the line between price or desirability being the cause of their growth relative to Lexus? You act as though everyone can just afford whatever. The other half of that is correct, it does have to do with desirability, the desirability of SUVs, which is over half of Lexus' volume now.
I do agree though that at this point that their sales will be hindered until and they get reliability endorsements from the survey groups and their worshipers, but up until about 2000-2001 or so the word wasn't out like it is now about their reliability. Of course I think if they brought their prices down that would help just as much, but of course that would have no affect on sales in your view. A 75K SL500 wouldn't sell any better than 95K one does because everyone has a copy of Consumer Reports in their back pocket when they go shopping.
Lexus sure isn't ahead because their cars are more desirable with previous duds like the IS and GS. They'd be at the end of the chart if they were more dependent on car sales like MB is.
M
Not a big deal, imho. But the first mention I've seen from a reliable source.
Rising tide lifts all boats; remember all those dot-coms in their hey days? It's relative growth, market share and most importantly cash flow that ultimately will decide the success vs. failure of companies. It's astounding that Mercedes is losing money hand-over--fist in what's arguably the fastest growing years of the luxury auto market.
How you can ignore every MB priced above 70K (where Lexus tops out) and say it doesn't matter is beyond me, and I'm not talking about 4 or 5 models either.
The actual sales number of $70k+ class is relatively minor compared to the $30-50k segment, although the growth rate is significant. Also a MB with $70k MSRP actually sells for much less through lease subsidy (see below). What's also interesting is that, Lexus does not sell any car much over $70k; doesn't that mean, if it did, there would be more Lexus sales?
Of course I think if they brought their prices down that would help just as much, but of course that would have no affect on sales in your view. A 75K SL500 wouldn't sell any better than 95K one does because everyone has a copy of Consumer Reports in their back pocket when they go shopping.
If you actually shopped in this segment, you'd have noticed that the true market price/value of SL500 is only $75k or less: the MB financial lease residue on SL500 is $60-65k, but in reality local dealers are having difficulty selling those lease returns at $40k! That means MB is booking the $95k up front only to have $20+k coming out the finance arm three years later, making the car really worth $75k or less. It also means that MB's financial sheets will look bad for at least years to come.
What's more interesting is that, Lexus prices have been going up throughout the last decade, significantly on some models. Whereas MB prices have been going down, both in terms of MSRP and the growing lease subsidy. If all else were equal, say, hypothetically the two company operated in two entirely different markets with equal growth rate and unchanging products, you'd think the company that raises prices should have lower sales growth than the one that reduces prices. Yet, the exact opposite has been happening! That is indicative of the dilusion of marquee value that has been happening at MB.
The IS350 convertible is going to be a cool car, but I wouldnt expect it any time soon. Apparently they are still working on wether to do a soft or retractable hard top. By the time it actually comes out, there will probably be a brand new SC that will be a lot better.
Merc1: This admission that reliability is hurting MB sales is kinda refreshing. So MB sales is in decline in part bcos it is less reliable than the competition ? Hmmmm !!! And buyers have CR in their back pockets when they go purchase a high-priced MB ??? Double hmmmm.... But to top it off, you state that MB needs to get reliability endorsements from the survey groups.... WOW !!! Were u suggesting that MB buyers now care about JDP and CR before buying an MB ???? To think that all these years you have slammed Lexus and its owners for being *CR and JDP worshippers*....
So you finally can connect the dots.....
You can only sell on your image for so long, u know ! BTW, MB prices are high not because they are worth their list prices, but bcos of the many issues well highlighted to you in previous posts - such as high production costs, inefficiency, labor costs, etc...All of these being passed down to unlucky MB-mystified buyers.... As brightness stated, MB lease prices are inflated, and true residuals are hidden. When the roost comes home to MB, it will be a huge problem. I am sure an SEC and charges of potential insider trading investigation would not help MB in the short-term...
These are not the "dots" that needed connecting as none of that about reliability having an effect on sales was in debate. I can't believe that you actually think that I said that surveys have no effect on buyers. No its more like I said that they don't have as much of an effect like you always hype them up to.
Your theory about MB not being the brand of choice for the high-end buyer was was what I took issue too and later disproved, not surveys/reliablity and the weight that some buyers place on such things. What I said was that for the people who can't buy without a survey in hand, MB needs an endorsement from CR or JDP to get them to buy since thats all they seem to know about when it comes to cars. Other buyers don't. Does this go for all MB buyers like you're trying to say that I'm suggesting, heck no. The fact that Mercedes and other brands still sell lots of cars without CR/JDP's endorsement should answer that question for you.
M
When it comes to long term reliability, the German ADAC (a nationwide club most drivers belong to) has the best stats, since they pick up most drivers that lay stranded by the wayside and keep track of every incident with teutonic accuracy. In those, Mercedes does poorly, too, and Toyota (and Lexus) does very well. But BMW ranks nowhere near as highly as they do in the JDP stats. Audi does the best by a mile in the ADAC stats out of the premium German vendors.
Of course, the problem with the ADAC statistics is that the whole equation then swings towards the quality of the service network over the long term, and away from exclusive car quality issues.
The ideal statistics would involve average-trouble-free miles per purchase-plus-service-dollar for the different models, and not necessarily brands. Unfortunately, those do not exist.
My understanding of the ADAC is that everything from flat tires to running out of gas counts as a "breakdown" to them also, though those things are no fault of the car itself. I'm not entirely sure of what their criteria is.
BMW doing so well in this country when it comes to the 3-year surveys is IMO because if you look back to 2002, they only had one new car, the 7-Series, which as an individual model has ranked below any Mercedes I've seen as far as reliability goes, depending on the source. CR puts both the E-Class and 7-Series pretty much in the same boat. I'll be shocked if BMW can maintain their standing once the new 3,5,6 and X3 come up in the 3-Year surveys. So far that X5 and 7-Series haven't been enough to matter in the grand scheme of things I guess.
M
I had quite the day at the Lexus dealer today..I took my 92 in for some suspension work and got quite the bill. Initially they wanted $3700..I told them absolutely not...What really bothered me was the amount of time they took to get to me once I got to the dealer. I spent nearly 40 minutes just waiting for the mechanic to come talk to me. The Service Consultant seemed clueless. Her comment regarding my surprise to the bill, "Oh well we have people who spend 9-10K on these cars all the time...It depends how much you like the car.." That statement is beyond logic. Why would you spend that sort of money on a car with a max value of $6500?? Here is what is being replaced: Upper Control Arm (Right Side) Strut Rod Bushings, Power Steering Rack, Power Steering Pressure Hose, Rear Assembly Bushings..
What is the point of shelling out $63K if the car starts to fall apart at 96K? My new LS430 will be my last Lexus. I am very disappointed in both the quality of service and the amount of issues that a babied LS has had...I only spent the money as it makes no sense to spend 30-40K trading it in on a new car. I'll just wait for the new E class Diesel that is supposed to come out next year. At least Mercedes has plenty of independant mechanics in my area..
SV
What do you expect a mechanic to do? Taking a half hour or 40 minutes for them to look at your car to find out the problem doesn't seem that bad.
A lexus dealer is going to be the highest when it comes to repair and parts costs. Independent mechanics who work on Lexus' shouldn't be that hard to find. If you live anywhere near a major city, you should be able to find one.
And if you think Mercedes will be any better 13 years after it's new.....get your checkbook ready.
I turned in my '96 LS in '01 with 156k on the odo. It needed around $1500 worth of service close to the 100K mark, and that was it. I also have to wonder why you are paying dealer prices for a car that ran out of warranty during Clinton's first term.
If you think a Mercedes E is going to be more reliable than a Lexus LS, you're kidding yourself.
- call other Lexus service locations, and get them to give you an estimate for the work that the first dealer says you need
or
- take the car to another Lexus service location, tell them you weren't happy with what another dealer told you you needed, and ask them to evaluate the car and give an estimate...possibly they'll find it needs less work, or the same work could end up costing less.
This whole thing about massive bills for cars that are older than 5 years is the reason why I think my attitude of buying cars cash is flawed given the direction the car industry has taken - they don't build them to last 20 years when you take good care of them, and to be maintenance friendly in the very long term. I am going to lease going forward, and not worry about this stuff. I'd love to try to keep a car for 10 years, but with a luxury car of recent vintage it's a quixotic thing to do, I think. They're build to be leased primarily, and to extract some money out of the people that get them second hand. Collectibles they aren't designed to be.