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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Comes down to your preferences. A new car always feels better but the most economical route is to keep the car until it rots into the ground assuming it has been maintained all along. I had a Celica for 14 years, 150K and the engine ran like a top. The only reason I gave it up was rust and torn seats. You are only averaging 7-8K miles a year which means the car should get you many more years. However I think you should find a good honest local wrench without having to depend on dealer service.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    SV: If your time is valuable, as I suspect it is, I'll get the ES rather than the XJ8, althought the latter is probably a better car. The new ES330 will give you 10+ years of worry-free life, something that the XJ8 may not be able to do. But if your preference is for more fun in driving, then by all means get the Jag. For my money, I'd get the ES330. The '92 LS needs to retire !!!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Sv- if you're used to an LS, the ES may not do it for you and will be outdated berfore too much longer as a new one is due in 2007 from what I understand. I rode in a friends 97 LS the other day and it had a far more more luxurious feel and ride than the 2004 ES I got as a loaner a while back. Here's a thought - why not try out the true newer Lexus engineering in the GS - either the GS3 or GS4. The GS 430 I drove was phenomenal (luxury, handling, ride and quality of materials and build) and 99% of drivers on the road are not going to nitpick about small handling differential to say - a 5-series or an Infiniti M. Great car that is still uppercrust Lexus. Besides it's for you right - as you, just like me lost complete control of the new LS to your wife.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The IS needed to soften up a bit in order to survive. From what I understand, in the October C&D, The IS350 came in second place just one point behind the 330i, and cleaned up on the rest of the class. It also apparently sprinted to 60 mph in something like 5.1 seconds, faster than everybody else by quite a bit.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I would not get either the ES330 or the XJ8. The ES is Boring McBlandville, and its due for replacement.

    As a Jaguar owner since '98 and a long time fan of the company, I do not recommend the previous XJ. Its a '95 design (when it was XJ6). It got the V-8 in '98, but otherwise its the same car up through '03. Its lacking in safety features, handling, space, etc. etc. compared to every other car in the class. Also, I think you're going to be in for a shock as to how much time and money is involved in maintaining a Jag. From 25K to 50K miles, my '98 XK8 was in the shop for unscheduled service visits ten times. My '00 R has around 35K on it, and has been in 6 times already. The warranty is up, so I will probably end up selling it and waiting a few years and then buying one of the new ones. If the super charger had failed this year instead of a year and a half ago, I'd be out $6500.

    If you want a FWD, midsize car like the ES but one that wont put you to sleep, I recommend the Acura TL. You can even row your own in that car if you want, but I dont really recommend it as the torque steer becomes a serious issue with the stick.

    Have you considered a '01 GS430? Relatively low mileage examples are pretty cheap, as the GS430 has never really been much of a hit. You can get the 18" wheels, the ML stereo, and NAV for less than $30K. I bet a Lexus dealer could even track down an "L-tuned" model with the sport suspension for that price.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    I was on my way to the Lexus dealer to get an ES today and decided to have a look at the Toyota dealer nearby. (Both dealers are owned by the same person) You wouldn't believe what happened. I saw a little car in the corner and asked to take it for a test drive. The salesperson thought I was messing around with him, but took me regardless. That little car was a Toyota Corolla. I was rather surprised at how well it ran. Quite spunky and well laid out inside. I bought it on the spot...It's weird how life works sometimes. I spent less than half that I expected to. Even the wife is happy to have a small car around, especially since I didn't spend much..
    It rode rather quietly and smoothly at 60 MPH. Can't argue with the 38 MPG either. The 1992 is here to stay, and Lexus will be having another look at it next week. It makes this strange creaking noise when pulling into parking spots..Really irritating, especially since I already spent $2100 on suspension work!

    SV
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I really thought you were going to say "I got the Avalon instead of the ES". I definitely did not expect to read that you bought a Corolla. I cant argue with the mpg though, at least for the rest of 2005 it will be invaluable Im sure. I also agree that, except maybe for the Jetta, its got the best interior in the class. And unlike the Jetta the Corolla can actually run for multiple days in a row without breaking down. Over 25 million served!
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    James Bond has not come close to pulling off some of the stunts executed in The Transporter 2. The movie, essentially an 88 minute commercial for the Audi A8L W-12 Quattro flaunts many of the car’s exceptional and avant-guard features.

    The big black oversized-grille Audi, with the best paint job I have ever seen, is put through a grueling choreography of disbelieving stunts all without a scratch. Four-wheel drive, bullet-proof glass, blue-tooth technology, and other electronic gizmos are stretched to the limit.

    Wow! What a car. Unfortunately, the target market for the A8L W-12 Quattro probably will never see this movie in a theatre where they can gasp, hear the melodic exhaust notes and appreciate the car’s potential. I suspect Audi might put a short clip of it on their website though, a la BMW.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    If it was me, I would replace it with a 99-2000 LS rather then a new ES...I think you will be happier in the long run...The Price will be less...and you will still have everything and More that you liked about your old LS.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    LG: The new Jetta is a Corolla wanna-be. Have you not noticed the exterior especially the rear of the new Jetta ? Talk about Zerox copy per excellence !!!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    LG: The fuzzy math at C&D yielded the 1pt victory for the e90 330i. But after re-adding the numbers once again, it turns out the actual CORRECT scores were dead even 212 pts apiece b/w the 330i and the IS350. So it is a dead tie for 1st place in the comparo.

    But you gotta question a mag that will even continue to rate a car that had such mechanical failure in its testing as one at the top of the heap of the class. Doesn't reliability count for anything in ownership of these cars ???? IMO, the 330i should be at the BOTTOM of the class as a car that may be great but totally unreliable.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC - They've never given a damm about reliability or ownership satisfaction. BTW one of my friends in town had his S500 die on his driveway today and had it flatbedded out. Add another MB diehard who's done with the brand. You don't want to know how disgusted this guy is with the car.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I've seen the "grown up, sort of" ads everywhere. Clearly they want a piece of that sweet Civic and Corolla pie, and are willing to make it look as Japanese as possible in order to get it. As Auto Extremist would say, notgonnahappen.com. Not when the 2.5 with a crude 5 cyl starts at $20 grand. You can get a loaded to the gills Mazda 3 for that.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Purely my imagining. Lexus -Europa established in northern Italy in a modern factory like that of Ferrari, designing and making very high end synergy hybrid sports and touring cars. And competition cars , too.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    The next time your friend is driving again ( lol) ask him to take a look at the rear of an early, Japanese built Volvo S40. It looks like a 5/8 version of the S500. That will make him real happy.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The guy is really teed. This is the second time the car has been flatbedded. He never told me about the first. It came out in frustration mixed in with words I can't post on this board. He had a 2001 that gave him gremlin type problems but nothing major. This is his 2004 replacement and its an electrical lemon.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    For what it's worth, today I met the 3rd person I know that traded their Benz for a Lexus (2) or Saab (1). My wife could be the 4th, another service is coming up, and I hate her car.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    A Benz for a Saab? Thats unusual. Which Benz was it?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    FRANKFURT, Sept 7 (Reuters) - German luxury carmaker BMW (BMWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) has joined DaimlerChrysler (DCXGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) and General Motors (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) in an alliance to develop new hybrid vehicle technology, DaimlerChrysler and GM said on Wednesday.

    Confirming an earlier report by Reuters, a joint statement said the three carmakers had signed a memorandum of understanding to become equal partners in the project.

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticleSearch.aspx?storyID=154014+07-Sep-2005+RTRS&srch=- bmw
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting. I'm curious as to what makes a hybrid "hot" (Prius, RX400h) vs. "not" (Civic, Accord). The Prius is from the fact that it doesnt look like any other car, so the neighbors immediately notice that you are better than them. That argument doesnt work on the RX400h though. I think in that case there were a lot of people who wanted to be able to say "I drive a hybrid", but were not willing to give up the luxury SUV and settle for a bubble car with a 0-60 of more than 10 seconds.

    I think Honda should've put IMA in the MDX and Pilot first. The Civic is already incredibly fuel efficient and clean burning, it really doesnt need hybrid power. I think BMW would be smart to start with the X3 and X5 first, then work on the cars.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Does anyone think that GM, DC and BMW can really collaborate? None separately has the money needed to match Toyota. So by necessity they're driven to pooling of resources. Given how difficult it was for Daimler-Benz to integrate Chrysler one has to be a sceptic. But this action shows that synergy hybrids are a success and constitute a new paradigm for automotive power.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Pablo Which Mercedes does she have? Tony
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    One dumb question: rather than trying to pool resources on hybrids, wouldn't the world be better of if we in North America could simply import the current diesel version of the European sedans? Incidentally, I find it simply amazing that Massachusetts of all states doesn't allow new sales of the Mercedes E Series diesel? What are they thinking in the Athens of North America?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Unfortunately things just arent that simple. For example, Japanese cars use something like 101 octane gasoline. If you tried to fill a Skyline with 87 regular, the engine would blow up. I dont think that the difference in Euro spec diesel is that extreme, but there isnt a single Euro spec diesel car or truck that will pass US spec EPA 2007 diesel regulations.

    The diesel E is also not available in NY, and a few others. The current engines are just too dirty to pass air quality controls in these states. Once we have "clean" diesel available here, the 2007 spec cars should be 50 state certified.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I'm shocked !!

    Didn't we continue to read from Bimmer/MB fans that their response to Toy/Lex gas-electric hybrid system was... drumroll.... DIESEL ??? Whatever happened to that plan, eh ?

    To battle the mighty Toyota, DCX, GM and BMW needed to combine their resources.... That should tell you how far back they are of Toyota, or how far ahead the latter is. Where were they 5 years ago ???? Sleeping at the wheel, again....

    Sad, really !
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Diesel is going to be around faster then hybrid technology, as in 2007. As it is now diesel is selling in my area for about 25-40 cents less than regular, if the price of the lower sulfur fuel holds up, it will be quite the bargain. I guess BMW is hedging their bets, but I wouldn't buy a hybrid unless I got a dollar for dollar tax deduction against the cost increase of the base model. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    but I wouldn't buy a hybrid unless I got a dollar for dollar tax deduction against the cost increase of the base model. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

    Yeah, the price of hybrid vehicles just doesn't justify their use, as far as saving money is concerned. For example, Honda is touting it's new Accord hybrid, which sells for $30,140 and has a listed mpg of 29/37. The comparable regular V6 Accord sells for $27,300 and 20/29. If you drive 50% city/highway for 12,000 miles/year, the regular would use about 490 gallons ($1470 at $3/g) and the hybrid would use 364 gallons ($1092 at $3/g), for a difference of $378 per year. Do the math.... you'd need to have the car for 7.5 years just to break even! (And this doesn't even factor in a markup on hybrid cars that a lot of people are reporting.)

    Right now it just doesn't seem to be a financially sound decision to buy hybrids..... (And I didn't even bring up the Lexus RX 330 vs 400h... 18/24 vs 31/27 for the lofty price difference of $11,000!!!)
  • cpeterson3cpeterson3 Member Posts: 51
    Your arguments including the fantastic math showing the nominal cost savings fail to high-light the main reason why we should move to more efficient engines / technologies - conservation and consumption. Driving a 545, I get marginal mileage yet I am more concerned with the amount of petroleum I am consuming than the cost - your right, the extra cost is nominal when spread across 365 days.

    Our society keeps thinking in dollars to be saved when we should be thinking in barrels untapped. The demands of developing countries and the China's and India's of the world are what is define our needs and limits for petroleum - not what it costs me to put a gallon in the tank.
  • rl81rl81 Member Posts: 53
    Hybrids (and Diesel) on a big(ger) scale will decrease the demand for fuel, no question. What will this cause? The price of fuel will decrease (supply and demand)

    Most people would stop thinking right there.

    But let's think a little bit further: You mentioned China and India. What will they do if gas prices decrease...they will use more as will the rest of the world...

    Should that keep people from doing the right thing? I hope not. Conserving fossile fuels should be a priority for everyone!!! Let's just be realistic about how this is going to happen.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I've mentioned this before...people should keep in mind that one reason diesel is popular in Europe is that diesel costs as much as 40% less there than gasoline there, due to tax subsidies. Over here, on the other hand, diesel costs slightly more than gas. (Prior to the short-term disruptions caused by Katrina, diesel in my area was actually more expensive than premium gas.)

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9491&page_number=1

    The same article points out that pollution standards going into effect in 2007 will raise the cost of diesel cars (not just the fuel itself)....by an estimated $4500 per car. "It's hard to see a payback on a 2007 diesel car in the U.S. in less than 200,000 miles. That's efficiency you couldn't sell at gunpoint."
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    People are also forgetting the other benefit of the hybrid. In the Accord's case, not only are you saving gas (not enough by itself to justify the cost from a financial standpoint), but you are getting more power. Just try to find a company that will throw in a bigger engine without charging for it. While the power difference will not be the same as moving from a V6 to a V8, the $3000 upcharge for a hybrid is less than the typical upcharge in a high-end vehicle going to a larger engine.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Very true and especially appropriate since we are supposed to be talking about the high end. Getting a V6 hybrid is a bit like getting a V8 performance upgrade for "free"...the price differential is eventually recouped through fuel savings, even though it may take years.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    People are also forgetting the other benefit of the hybrid. In the Accord's case, not only are you saving gas (not enough by itself to justify the cost from a financial standpoint), but you are getting more power. Just try to find a company that will throw in a bigger engine without charging for it. While the power difference will not be the same as moving from a V6 to a V8, the $3000 upcharge for a hybrid is less than the typical upcharge in a high-end vehicle going to a larger engine.

    Hmm... not sure I follow you. It's the same V6 in the Accord V6 vs. the Hybrid, then add the 16hp from the "magnet motor." They say 255 hp at 6000 rpm vs 244 hp at 6250 rpm. That isn't much of an "upgrade"... certainly not worth $3000, IMO.

    I know what people are saying about being "environmentally conscious".... I'd rather donate my $3000 to an environmental charity than buy a car with it, but that's just me. Maybe it's the "status" thing? Look at all the celebrities buying hybrids because it's "trendy".... :confuse:
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    You're right, it is not much of an upgrade. The torque numbers are slightly better (not quite a 10% increase at 5000 rpm), but C&D only found a 0.3 second advantage to 60.

    My hope is that these hybrids are going to continue to improve so that we eventually see significant gains in both mpg and power. The more interest the population shows, the more likely it will happen sooner. While Toyota is leading, I am happy to see others throw their hats in.

    I didn't buy a hybrid this time. In six years, maybe we'll see a BMW 335HXi (or 335xi-H. I can dream, right? Well, as long as I'm dreaming...M5x-H.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    With BMW on board, the three companies plan to invest "a three-digit million dollar sum" in total for the project, a person familiar with the situation said, and operate a joint development center in Troy, Michigan. (from today's WSJ)

    They aren't doing it because hybrid offers tiny improvements.

    "We believe we can deliver 25% improvement" in fuel economy, Lawrence Burns, GM's vice president for research and development and strategic planning said in a recent interview. (same source)

    I think Toyota/Lexus current hybrid offerings beat Honda's in terms of improvements vs conventional drivetrains (and this might account for Toyota/Lexus relative sales success in hybrids). And every manufacturer can be expected to make further improvements to hybrid technology.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    (And I didn't even bring up the Lexus RX 330 vs 400h... 18/24 vs 31/27 for the lofty price difference of $11,000!!!)

    Oh boy, not this again. The price difference is NOT $11K. People get that by comparing a base RX330 with no options to a 400 that comes fully decked out with everything as standard. If you do an actual comparison by loading up a 330 to match the 400's equipment levels the actual cost of JUST the hybrid motor is something like $3500-4000. If you dont want the back up camera, laser cruise, air suspension, upgraded wheels, etc. Dont buy a 400h. But please dont whine about Lexus fleecing its customers with an $11K price hike when that argument is simply not factual. Its like comparing a stripper ML350 to a fully loaded ML500. The difference in that case is a lot more than $11K.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Check out this fascinating piece: European Touring Sedans in Their Native Lands. This features Edmunds.com President Jeremy Anwyl spending some quality time with a 2005 Quattroporte and a 2005 XJR. He takes a spin through Italy with the Maserati and through Wales and England with the Jag.

    The story is compelling and the video is excellent. I had the good fortune to see the video lab in full swing producing this when I was in Santa Monica a few weeks ago.

    Check it out and enjoy!
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    If a person got a regularly equipped 330 and if a person wanted to get the H there is still quite a large price difference....Sort of like buying a five thousand dollar storage tank to store a hundred gallons of gas.....The Japanese are now catching up on what use to be just a good value...Tony
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    It really just depends on whether you want a loaded vehicle or not...if not, the current Lexus h offering just won't work for you.

    The Japanese are now catching up on what use to be just a good value

    I agree, over time Lexus will be able to raise its prices relative to the Germans.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "If a person got a regularly equipped 330 and if a person wanted to get the H there is still quite a large price difference"

    Most hybrids are currently sold as the top version of their model (Accord, Civic, 400h, GS450h) and that means optional equipment on the lower rung will be standard. Thats not exactly an unusual practice, I really dont understand why everybody is so up in arms about it. Nobody seems to complain about having to pay for a bunch of equipment on a 550i that may be optional on a 525i.

    I'd say most Japanese cars still present a VERY good value compared to Germany. Ex. Mazda3 vs Jetta. Accord vs Passat. Infiniti M vs BMW 5. LS430 vs S500. Lexus charges more than Infiniti or Acura does, but they have earned the prestige to do so.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Diesel is going to be around faster then hybrid technology, as in 2007.

    Really ? Is this backed up with any hard fact or is it just speculation ?

    As it is now diesel is selling in my area for about 25-40 cents less than regular, if the price of the lower sulfur fuel holds up, it will be quite the bargain...

    Not in my neck of the woods. Diesel costs more than premium here in So Cal. It certainly ain't a bargain around here, andnot anytime soon either.

    I guess BMW is hedging their bets...

    Yeah ! And they'd need to also. Cos if the Diesel plan fails, as it will, then they have GM/DCX to bail them out.... eh ?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Diesel costs more than premium here in So Cal."

    Wow. For a time it did here, but then the price/gallon tanked.

    "Is this backed up with any hard fact or is it just speculation ? "

    It's as much fact as a lot of the other ruminations on this board.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    this is getting ready to get ugly?

    Folks, let's get away from the diesel/hybrid argument; that's really more appropriate on the Hybrid board or the News & Views board.

    Most of you have weighed in with your opinions and yes, I understand that we are (marginally) talking about what the High End (so to speak) marques are doing or should be doing about the situation, but that doesn't make this the right place to keep at this.

    Is no one interested in Jeremy Anwyl's comparison of the Quattroporte and and XJR? European Touring Sedans in Their Native Lands

    One wonders why this discussion is not named "4 or 5 people go at each other's throats over whatever each other has said and never stop" ....

    :shades:
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    One wonders why this discussion is not named "4 or 5 people go at each other's throats over whatever each other has said and never stop" ....

    lol.... As host, do you have "thread renaming" privileges? :P
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "I agree, over time Lexus will be able to raise its prices relative to the Germans."

    As far as I am concerned it happened a long time ago with 2001 being the real benchmark year of major change. That is when Lexus kept raising the ante while MB lowered its prices significantly. A fully loaded LS Ultra is a stone's throw away from an MB S430 and the lease cost is equal or higher (sometimes noticably higher) because MB subsidizes its leases. Across the board Lexus has been ramping up its revenue by adding more and more equipment and selling less and less base cars. Base prices have hardly changed in 8-10 years but the cars being sold have moved up on average of $8-10K, and in some cases $14-15K in the case of the ultra. Most new models have been in the high end segment, GX, LX. and SC over that period as well. On average Lexus sales per unit are much higher than 6-10 years ago despite those nearly static base car prices.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Look at all the celebrities buying hybrids because it's "trendy"...."

    Need we look any further as to why MB and BMW don't want to miss out on this the way they missed the SUV curve??
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I guess I just would like to order what I wanted even if it was then fully equipped...In my case I was thinking of getting a more stripped down version for my daughter as her lexus suv is getting on in age now...IMO the lexus use to really be a value, but as it has caught on over the years their prices have closed the gap in a big way...Still a value but not near as much...Their new LS will probably be even pricier and then no matter how you look at it sixty five-- seventy five thousand is a large number....Tony
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I read the `european touring sedans` from your previous sugestion and found the trips to be a good comparison, although the details were a bit on the short side.imo....I had the really old Jag xj6 and in it`s day the feel and steering were marvelous, although the a/c did not do it`s job here in the south....My friend also had one and it cought on fire from the catalitic converter catching the grass on fire...Burned up...Those were many years ago......I do think it better to have some people that have different opinions, on any subject, and lively interest versus nothing at all which I have observed on numerous high end cars.... When it gets tedious you have usually stopped it .Tony
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I own a hybrid...It is fully loaded with a very good sound system...GPS...Power everything...smart key type entry...Through the dash 6 CD changer...Plenty of Power...It gets an honest 52 MPG....in mixed driving...ALSO HAS ESC..ABS...and 6 airbags...It is much Bigger in the interior then it looks from the outside....Leather...Hi-indensity Headlights...There is nothing to plug in for the batteries...I do not need to go to special gas stations...It uses regular ...It passes emissions standards in every state in the union. The rear seats fold down flat to offer a huge space for whatever....Full sized people can actually sit in the back seat.

    I paid $28,000 for the car...I could have gotten it through Costco for $25,000...(didn't find that out till later) The Base Model through Costco would have Cost $19 to $20,000...That was BEFORE the Auto industry went crazy with Discounts. (bought last March)

    What does a Diesel Cost?....Is there an inconvience factor because you need to go to a special gas stations?....Does it pass emissions standards in every state in the union...

    Hybrid Cars..are not all that expensive...Mine is an 05 Preis...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Is there an inconvience factor because you need to go to a special gas stations?"

    Every gas station in my area has diesel for below regular gas.

    "Mine is an 05 Preis"

    blueguy posted his impression of a Prius, it seems to be way different than yours.
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