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Comments
Sorry - I see PT cruiser like features on that S-class. It became quite noticable in the pictures you posted. In pix form the car has lost its beauty - in my opinion of course. They went for the massive bulky look on a redesign of a car that was initially designed to hide it's bulk and did so very very well. Makes no design planning sense at all to me and I think it was a poor and unchecked response to BMW going more massive. Maybe it'll be different seeing it firsthand but that's my read of the photos of the car. I'd be worried about what the future smaller versions of this design - on the C and E are going to look like - if I was an MB fan.
While you may think the LS is bland...That is far better then UGLY...
A poor response to BMW by going massive? Another wild theory I guess, that doesn't make any sense to me. BMW has nothing in the way of wheel arches for MB to look at and respond to in a "unchecked" manner that you speak of. You haven't even seen the car to know how massive it looks or anything. Everyone that has seen the car says it the same thing as before, it hides its bulk well, and I'd agree with that even looking at the pics. The wheel arches were added to give it some flair, which may or not have worked depending on who you ask.
Lexus has great planning when it comes to design I guess? Too funny. Sorry, but there is no room to talk about Mercedes, even if they did muck up one car in your eyes because Lexus hasn't produced anything good looking or worth looking at with 4 doors in 15 years! They've done one ugly and/or bland design after another, thats poor "design planning" or just poor design period.
M
Anyway I still like the overall look, at least in pics, despite the arches.
Oh my. Time to find out who is using your handle. This is the same theory given on German car zone about the new S compared to the old S and the more I look at the two cars this seems valid. There isn't much difference between the old and new overall, without the wheel arches. The is especially the case with the front. The rear does adopt a Maybach look that is different from 2000-2006 model. Still though there isn't nearly as much change as say from 1999 to 2000 or from 1991 to 1992.
M
Secondly - it's my point of view that I think this is a (big) drop off in looks to the current car and not a good looking car at all. It's a mish mash of styling as far as I'm concerned (see designmans post also as he seems to agree) and those wheel arches alone cause the car to lose its grace and reveal its bulk. I qulalified it all by saying I can only go by the photos. I've also read some of the reviews on the styling and they hardly seem convincing at all. Some of them are starting to sound like the initial reviews of the new BMW design - "I don't like it that much but let me not insult a reknowned brand".
Thirdly - they were deeply influenced by BMW to the point that they gave you a BMW interior. Enough said there.
Lastly - it seems that no one who drives a Lexus can say anything bad about a Mercedes without it inflaming you - so I'll stop posting my opinion about the looks of this car or any of their new designs on this board with this post.
One thing I have always wondered is that with all your love for MB, how come you never chose one - even a pre-owned one, which are dirt cheap where I live - for your needs. Obviously you saw better value elsewhere. If I loved a brand the way you do and admire everything they do I couldn't resist owning something they make - even if it were 4 or 5 years old. If I couldn't afford a new one I certainly would have bought a pre-owned one by now.
Give me another few months and I may even like the new S in silver!
How about you, Merc1?
My point is not to start another debate about Lexus and Mercedes, its just that I don't see how anyone who fancies any type of Lexus (regarding styling) or LS430 by saying it has a "classic look" can talk about styling. IMO of course anyone that thinks a LS430 has a "classic" look simply doesn't really have a handle on what good looking styling is. It would be like me slamming an Japanese luxury brand for reliability when Mercedes is lacking that area. I wouldn't have any room to talk.
Thirdly - they were deeply influenced by BMW to the point that they gave you a BMW interior. Enough said there.
Actually there is nothing being said in that because the wheel arches and overall look of the car have nothing to do with the interior looking like a BMW. There are no BMW cues on the exterior of the new S. The interior yes, not even I can deny that, but the exterior is Mercedes/Maybach with some out of here wheel arches thrown in.
Lastly - it seems that no one who drives a Lexus can say anything bad about a Mercedes without it inflaming you - so I'll stop posting my opinion about the looks of this car or any of their new designs on this board with this post.
No true, witness Lexusguy. Its the left-field stuff (which is usually posted here) I take exception to. My thing is that I find it unbelievable to knock Mercedes for something your fav can't ever get right. Then there are the far out theories about who influenced who when there is no evidence to support it - when it comes to the S' wheel arches. I mean really how could some wheel arches be the influence of BMW? They don't look like anything on any BMW in production or proposed.
I don't want you to stop posting your opinion on styling, I just won't debate it with you because we won't ever agree there. No need to stop posting, because we've been disagreeing since 2001! Or as Colin Powell said about the U.S. and France, "we've been in marriage counseling for 200 years".
One thing I have always wondered is that with all your love for MB, how come you never chose one - even a pre-owned one, which are dirt cheap where I live - for your needs. Obviously you saw better value elsewhere. If I loved a brand the way you do and admire everything they do I couldn't resist owning something they make - even if it were 4 or 5 years old. If I couldn't afford a new one I certainly would have bought a pre-owned one by now.
I think we've had that conversation before. Other things are more important to me than having a Mercedes-Benz, believe it or not. 1997 (the last time I bought a car) was a different time for me personally than 2005 or 2006 is. When I get ready to get a new car it will be a Mercedes or Audi. Sorry if the timeframe doesn't jive with what you think is right. Also, if I haven't mentioned this before I've never been crazy about every single car Mercedes has made in the past.
M
How about you, Merc1?
Well I already "like" the car well enough. The European press has declared it the best car in the world already, but like many here they have a problem with the wheel arches. I'm just glad the quality and engineering of the car is much more improved over the current car. For me the wheel arches don't ruin the whole car like the certain things on other Mercedes' like the 2003-2005 CLK. If the wheel arches are much of an issue there is always the AMG Sport package, which much better intergrate with the wheel arches imo. Can't wait to see what the U.S. press will say about the wheel arches...I can already hear them now.
M
In other words if someone doesn't see it your way or the way a bunch of geeks who think they know it all in auto mags sees things - then they don't know anything about styling. Sure.
"Then there are the far out theories about who influenced who when there is no evidence to support it - when it comes to the S' wheel arches."
So a major competitor changes pace and the competing company is not influenced?? That's not a far out theory - that is business 101! Let me put it more clearly - BMW enhances their designs from a svelte look to a massive look. MB feels a need to react - the wheel arches are - IMO - part of the response. It was not the result of any copying - it was a reaction to do something as a result of the actions of a competitor. In some cases it is "he said A - I'll say A louder". In others it's "he said A, I'll say B". The wheel arches are the B.
" Other things are more important to me than having a Mercedes-Benz, believe it or not"
The point is that when you had the opportunity to buy a car you opted for something else rather than the brands you fancy. It comes down to spending I understand - of course. But if you are going to drop - say $25K on a car you can find a new or pre-owned German car or a new or pre-owned something else. You chose the latter and that speaks volumes to me.
just noticed the Audi A8 was rated 9.8 at the top of the page.
Hopefully, you all will nevertheless let me continue to be a "bridge of peace" between the G-fans and the J-fans.
And since after posting his story on Edmunds' Luxury Performance Sedans board, markcincinnati was offered an improved leasing deal by Audi to walk from his then-pending Infiniti order, maybe MB will give me a free new S to welcome me back into the Benz family - whaddya' think?
Can Mercedes Be a Star Again?
Merc1, while I totally enjoy your posts and respect your knowledge and [most of your] opinions, the basis of this continuing styling jab just misses me. Sure, knock Lexus and call it a styling copycat for the current LS, but to say its styling is so terrible when it so resembles previous generation MBs that you profess to like just makes no sense to me. For example, compare the rears of the LS and the S below. How can you say one is great and the other terrible?
PS-- Yes the one on the left is mine.
<img src="Y:\Program Files\palmOne\TreoG\Photos\BackupForInternal\Photo_081305_002.jpg
No in other words if someone thinks a LS430 has a classic look I wouldn't turn to them for a styling critique. If that thing has a classic look then everything else in the class is drop dead gorgeous. You talk about how the industry sees things until its time to talk about Lexus styling, something the industry and its buyers have been groaning about for years and years, yet it doesn't matter. Let the industry groan about Idrive or Mercedes' reliability and their dead-on right?
Also, the jab at the car mags is the oldest excuse in the book. If they don't say what you want them to say they don't know anything and their geeks, yet when they do put your fav car in the #1 spot they are so correct. That is far to hypocritical for me. They only think they know everything when they don't praise Lexus because they aren't looking at a Lexus via your personal criteria.
So a major competitor changes pace and the competing company is not influenced?? That's not a far out theory - that is business 101! Let me put it more clearly - BMW enhances their designs from a svelte look to a massive look. MB feels a need to react - the wheel arches are - IMO - part of the response. It was not the result of any copying - it was a reaction to do something as a result of the actions of a competitor. In some cases it is "he said A - I'll say A louder". In others it's "he said A, I'll say B". The wheel arches are the B.
For one you haven't even seen the new S in person so how in the world would you know that it has all this heft you keep talking about? How do you know the new S has this "massive" look? This theory has no basis whatsoever because BMW's doesn't have any similar wheel arches on anything they make. Unless you have an inside track to the MB design studio this is just guesswork at best, that you're trying to pass off as some kind of quiet fact with this business 101 stuff. Why in 100+ years didn't Mercedes suscribe to the business 101 theme with design until now? Doesn't make any sense. Just because Lexus follows BMW and Mercedes' lead when it comes to everything doesn't mean these two companies (which have been competing for much longer than Lexus has been around) operate the same way. Mercedes has rarely if ever been influenced by BMW when it came to their design until the interior of this new S. Mercedes and BMW went their own ways on most things until the last few years or so, and even now they aren't nearly as dependent or influenced by each other as you'd like to imply here. Sure when one comes out with a new type of vehicle the other responds but when it comes to design they aren't nearly as influenced by each other as you think. Their products don't look anything alike, again until this new S with its BMW like interior appeared.
All this influence talk is amazing to me because whenever it is said that Lexus is chasing BMW to try and create two of them (IS,GS) or a Mercedes (LS,SC) it isn't true, they're merely trying to be competitive, not that they were influenced by MB/BMW or trying to play catchup. Yet you think Mercedes, the original company that started the whole thing is taken so far a back by BMW to the point of coming up with these wheel arches? Ok.
The point is that when you had the opportunity to buy a car you opted for something else rather than the brands you fancy. It comes down to spending I understand - of course. But if you are going to drop - say $25K on a car you can find a new or pre-owned German car or a new or pre-owned something else. You chose the latter and that speaks volumes to me.
Tell me what any of this has to do with anything here? Let me guess you have to own a car to be able to talk about it's styling? You simply don't know my situation or anything else beyond what I've already mentioned here. The last time I bought anything was years ago and I didn't want a used anything at the time. Mercedes/Audi/BMW or not. Now if and when the next time I buy a car and it isn't a MB or Audi then you might have a case otherwise this is nothing more than a semi-personal jab because I dare to say your theory about MB/BMW is far-fetched at best.
M
M
Perhaps this will work. And merc1, I believe this is the current generation S, and the resemblance still is unmistakable. "Copycat", "derivative", "unoriginal" - any of those are potentially justifiable criticisms of the LS, but to say it's terrible but the S is beautiful, or to just call it a poor copy, is IMO just a cheap shot. In any case, I believe the people who like the style consider it "classic" in its closeness the the "classic" Ss that we all admire. I've never seen anyone from Club Lexus even try to make the argument that the LS designers gave lessons in classic styling to
the S designers, but it certainly is clear it is the other way around.
In any case, subject to viewing the actual car, based on pictures alone I think I have to vote for the "imitation classic" of the current LS over the very "unclassic" styling of the upcoming S, especially with regard to the wheel flares and the butt.
Perhaps next week (at the Tokyo Auto Show) we will see if Lexus has managed to deliver a new LS that is "classic" (in the sense of clean, pleasing lines), unique, and not boring.
It kind of reminds me of those awful, arrogant dealers that stick their own raised plates on the trunks of the cars they sell.
M
Second, something about this seemed to be "deja vu all over again", so I did a little search and found we had covered this ground pretty well (ending in a stand-off) back in July - see posts #9771-9784. Back then, we all agreed that the current LS was derived from the W140, and I didn't mean to offer that picture to say otherwise. My only point was - as docnukem seemed to pick up on - the relationship between the universally acclaimed W220 and its predecessor the W140 can also be followed between the W220 and the current LS. Put another way, if the W140 never existed and instead MB itself had come out with the body of the LS, I don't believe the MB fans would have felt so negative about that body style - and the W220 would have been as natural a successor to it as the W220 was to the W140.
If anyone can follow this, I'll be impressed...
A while back I mentioned the Bentley butt as a proud grand daddy. Here it is below with all of the knockoffs or copycats if you will. Judge for your self but in my mind there is no doubt who the progenitor of the raised-trunk-over-fender is. Regardless, I like the motif and think it works on the models shown.
Now, there has been resignation to the idea that Mercedes has been copied. Although they have produced some admirable designs, they have also done their share of copying, namely the “Parthenon” grille and mug of the earlier RRs and Bentleys, and the latter have copied and perhaps immortalized the early American radiator grille.
Even though I have been very fond of German designs and their interpretations up until the most recent abominations, I think the Germans with the major exception of Porsche may have done the most copying when automotive history is considered in its entirety. Don’t ask me to elaborate, it’s just that German cars have been around longer than those of the Japanese, and I think most automotive styling has been begotten from the Americans and English, today’s American designs notwithstanding.
The Japanese have proven nothing to me in terms of styling prowess. In my opinion they have shown only glimpses of talent and have a long way to go. Their legacy is economical cars for the masses, period. They neither create nor emulate well. However, I believe they are showing signs of coming around. The Germans have had their glory days but they have to sit back and rethink what they are doing. Their direction, again with the exception of Porsche, has gone absolutely berserk and is falling apart at the seams in all manner of styling.
But the bottom line is that all manufacturers have copied each other. The LS design is dubious because of its execution, not whether or not it copies the S. And, as I alluded to earlier, it really doesn’t matter who copies who, rather, who does it best and is fortunate enough to become the paradigm. And right now there are no paradigms—it’s simply a free for all. I dare not mention who the exception is again.
;-)
I truly hate to disagree with you on design because usually you're right on the money, but there is no way I can go for this. The Japanese will copy any and everything that is a success and something things that aren't. Mazda's original Miata was the most shameless Lotus Elan copy the world had ever seen. I mean the car was an exact duplicate. It took a German brand 15 more years to do something even close to that, VW's Jetta. I don't ever recall MB/BMW/Audi ever copying an enitre body from anyone, especially the Japanese in the way Lexus did with the LS430/W140 S-Class.
The difference with the above pics is that no one is going to mistake a Benz for a Bentley or a Acura for a Benz. Why? Because though their butts may be similar they aren't whole body style copies like the LS430 is compared to the W140 S-Class. That is where similarities end between what the German automotive industry has done regarding design vs the Japanese. The Japanese take whole bodies and clone them while others (including the Germans) take an single trait or theme and run with it, in some cases. Big, big difference.
In looking at those pics of the Bentley its rear isn't even the same as the other cars because the trunklid doesn't sit on top of the bodywork clamshell style like on the Maybach and S-Class.
All manufacturers have not copied each other either. IMO, that is nothing more than an excuse to excuse the Japanese from their cluelessness of design and need to copy everyone else. Mercedes, BMW, Audis and Jaguars are distinctive cars known the world over and it would all but impossible to confuse one for the other. You put a LS430 next to a 1999 S500 and the to the uninitiated the two cars looks more alike than any BMW looks like any Mercedes or any Mercedes looks like a Bentley or Audi, not matter what their butts look like.
Whats even worse is that now you have the Koreans who will copy any and everything they can. They've copied Mercedes' grille, the Lexus RX330, Mercedes ML and countless other European designs. Wait, it gets worse...you have the Japanase copying the Japanese also. Look at a Mazda 6 and a Acura TSX, check out their grilles. Ridiculous. This inbred copying is why the Lexus GS and Maxima have been called twins.
Sorry, but the there no way the German makes have ever taken copying to such a level as the Japanese and now Koreans. The German cars for better or worse are still far more original and distinctive than Asian cars. There is no comparison to the level of copying the Japanese have done over the years.
If there is one thing the Japanese have a bigger legacy than the Germans, it is in the art of copying...something the German can't even begin to match.
First the Aston-Martin incident and now this? What is going on designman? :confuse:
M
Thats definitely something that Mazda and Acura need to work out. They're both trying to claim that the 5-point grill is their "signature". Hardly. That grill has been all over Japan since basically ever. Probably the worst Japanese grill in recent memory, even worse than the Nissan "cheese grater", is Honda's new "snaggle tooth" thing they started with the '03 Accord and has now made its way on to the Civic. Ugh.
Maybe I'm in the minority on this but the front ends of Jags and BMW's have looked alike to me in the past.
I knew you would put an infrared lock on that. I’m sorry I even said it because you took it out of context and I don’t feel like elaborating takes too much work and it’s not that important. Just put it in perspective in my opinion the Americans have been the most creative but where does it get them when considering high-end luxury marques?
Don’t get hung up on copying, don’t place too much significance on it, and please don’t misinterpret what I was trying to say. If you re-read my post you will see that that Japanese styling gets no pass from me. You once told me that I am tough on styling. You were right and I’m just doing what I do. When everything is added up, the Germans score a lot higher on my styling score sheet.
That said, we have to focus on the present. MB is going to have to answer for their next round of styling. The S is a potpourri of elements we have seen before and I think you know it. There isn’t a creative stroke in that vehicle. Furthermore, the current trend is Japanese styling and somehow you have to make sense of it.
But I empathize with you and welcome you to the DGCFC Disappointed German Car Fans Club. As a BMW fan I have a four-year jump on you. You may as well roll with it unless of course you really think the S has something going, but something tells me this is not the case. This doesn’t mean we have to drink Lexus Kool Aid either. What it means is that you can become a cantankerous ol’ SOB like me and moan about everything as long as it deserves it.
Brother Merc, bless you, and welcome to the DGCFC. Let’s just comfort each other in addition to our forsaken brethren. Personally, I find inspiration and significance in one of your statements which, in my opinion, is one of your most profound
“Other things are more important to me than having a Mercedes-Benz ”
And when you think about it don’t get crazy, just think about it maybe Camp Lexus is actually one step ahead of us? (no, NO-O-O!!! I didn't say that!!!)
;-)
I like the way Lexus does it.
Nothing can cheapen the look of an LS ...
A broken down Mercedes or BMW sitting on the side of the road ...That is cheapening....
I think smoot sleek and HUGE is a better discription...I wonder if it still has less trunk space then the LS (20 Cu. Ft.)
The Bently definately has the nicest butt.
;-)
And for years nobody seems to be able to get this right. The only Lexus that I said was a pure copy of a Mercedes-Benz is the LS430 and the first generation LS400. My take on the Lexus brand being a wannabe Mercedes (and now BMW) in status is what you're getting confused on. Lets not get on what people have been harping about for years, because on this board its the same tired stuff about German cars and their company matters over and over and over again, things that are far more irrelevant to buyers than styling is. Its time to move on from that too.
M
M
Don’t get hung up on copying, don’t place too much significance on it, and
please don’t misinterpret what I was trying to say. If you re-read my post you will see that that Japanese styling gets no pass from me. You once told me that I am tough on styling. You were right and I’m just doing what I do. When everything is added up, the Germans score a lot higher on my styling score sheet.
Ok, got it. I didn't read that as you liked Japanese styling better than German styling. It was the industry comment that set off the meter.
Despite your most warm welcome I don't know if I'm ready to join DGCFC yet. I know your favorite, BMW has let you down every since the 2002 7-Series, but Mercedes hasn't done so just yet. Now if the muck up the next CL I'll be knocking on the door of DGCFC headquarters!
M
Speaking of design, one thing that BMW has created with their controversial designs is a unique visual presence on the road. No BMW model can be confused with other marques, so still wondering about the earlier comment regarding Jag/BMW likeness!
Is it me, or do all of these cars just get uglier as time goes on? At this point, I haven't a compelling reason to get any one of these! I was disappointed with the new S. The current one is a stunning looking car. If I had more confidence in the quality of the current S, I might just get one of those instead. Is it wise to think the end run of the current S will be better than those of the past?
I'm hoping the new LS460 is a vast improvement of the prior exterior design. The current design that I have is okay, not ugly, but not especially exciting to look at either. Lexus has been capable in times past of producing a sharp looking car. The original SC and ES are indications of this.
Another disturbing trend: The rush to cram all sorts of useless electronics in these cars. I wonder if there is a direct correlation with all this content and falling reliability. These toys virtually guarantee that you'll be forced to trade the car before the warranty ends. That's why I've resorted to trading my LS's in on a three yr cycle, as expensive as it is depreciation wise.
Perhaps I'm in the minority, in the sense I look to keep this cars for > 5 yrs. Maybe the automakers are catering to those who trade on a 3 yr basis like most here appear to do. Give me a Mercedes or Lexus without an air suspension, NAV, pointless Keyless Go systems, and all this electronic nonsense so I can concentrate on the driving!!
SV
In the name of differentiation, these manufacturers seem to be foregoing the concepts of "clean", "flowing", "proportional" - or are those just all "old-fashioned" rather than "classic, timeless" standards (designman, do tell)?
But Sam, I still can't imagine you tooling around town in a Corolla! Although I demand reliability, but I'm not willing to give up all luxury to get it. Like you, I like to buy a good car and keep it for a long time. But it is true that you can't justify anymore keeping a German car beyond the warranty, and even then you have to be willing to spend more time futzing with the dealer while under warranty than I am willing to do. And besides, since these days the manufacturers seem intent on dealing by inflating the lease residuals rather than by giving a discount for cash, you don't "buy" them anymore, you just "rent" them for a few years and then give them back.
Personally, I had been hoping that by the time I will be ready to give up my '05 LS, MB would have worked out its reliability problems and I could get a new S (which is what I really wanted this time anyway). But although in deference to merc1 I'll withhold final judgment until I see the new W221 in the "flesh" (or should I say "sheet metal"), I think I now have to keep my fingers crossed that Lexus does a great styling job on the next LS, or that an end-of-run W220 S-class gets such a good 3 year Vehicle Dependability Study or some such that I am willing to buy a used one (but I'm not holding my breath on that for sure).
Maybe it's time to go back and reconsider the Jag....
As if that werent bad enough, I read that Jaguar killed the plan to make the replacement for the S-type on a shortened version of the XJ\XK aluminum platform, because they just dont have the money. Instead, it will continue to use Ford's obsolete DEW98 platform of the Lincoln LS and current S-type.