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Comments
Also, I do believe Lexus and Infiniti have taught the Germans a few things that they have found hard to swallow on the quality production (i.e. Lean) front due to cultural reasons as much as anything.
Maybe a wise idea would be to curb the generalizations, as most true enthusiasts here recognize the Japanese marques for both their faults AND strengths. Upon due diligence, you may find that the underlying electronics in a German Nav system may not be of German origin at all... maybe so. Does anybody know who the major supplier is?
I often wonder if the rest of the world drivers with cars and trucks do not enjoy driving them ? How is your 2003 530SP more enjoyable to drive than say my 2003 Matrix XR? That car is small, nimble, and tight; about the only negative is its puny 130HP motor. But when you get it going to the 3000rpm range, it sure moves... like every other car out there. It remains a myth of mythical (pun intended) proportions that those with SPs enjoy their driving more than any of us with our luxury cruisers... What if my ideal ride is a luxury cruiser ???
As to your other point: How about BMW or VW getting an in-dash multi-CD changer ? That ain't that much of a technological marvel to do these days, or is it ???
AMEN to that, guy...... Very flat and unsupportive....
Simply because they want their cars to be equipped with more sophistication than competitors. Unfortunately greater sophistication and complexity involves more bugs and a longer learning curve for the driver!
BMW is attempting to dumb down and simplify idrive to the same level as their competitors. I believe I read that MB is trying to reduce the complexity of their Command system. If these endeavors do happen then there should be little distinction between a hardware/software bug attired in a Kimono or in Lederhosen
Oh man that is just so passe! IToday ipod is essential while a a CD changer should be an option for those geriatric folks!
A Luxury Cruiser: In my case give me a chauffeur and wake me up when the ride is over!
Call me geriatric, my dear Dewey.... But I still want my multi-CD changer cos all my music so far are on CDs. Only this past week my daughters bought me my first iPod, a Nano, from their baby sitting money, so I am now keeping up with the Joneses !! So, yes I will like an iPod plug in my next luxury cruiser in addition to my multi-CD changer, pls. Thank you, Lexus...
See, this is where drivers of German cars and Lexus drivers have dfferent philosophies. German drivers think 2 years of reliable service is enough to call a car "faultless". We dont think quite the same way. Call me in ten years, and if its still faultless, then yes, it would be in the same league with Lexus.
I have a 7 year old BMW E46 and my wife has a 23 year old MB300TD!
Faultless is the word to describe our two German cars!
Such gereralized claims as German cars are unreliable and Japanese car are faultless is a BOGUS STATEMENT and you yourself know that!
I am in the financial business and I do look at the financial consequences of owning a car! BMW is NUMERO UNO in terms of residual values! And it is DEPRECIATION that is the numbeer one expense of owning a car. Maintenace and fue costl are usually a small percentage when compared to depreciation. And it is the minimal depreciation of BMWs compared to Lexuses that will make a BMW more financially rewarding.
Most of us do not talk about all Japanese cars being faultless....We talk about the Lexus LS being as Faultless as a car can be.
Even you German car fans agree they have problems that have persisted for over a decade now..
When you compare A LS 430 Ultra at $71,000 ...and the comporable 7 series at probably $70-110,000 (you tell me what a top of the line 7 series costs)
You have saved approx $30,000 on day one by just buying the Lexus....Now maybe you or someone else has numbers on what a 5 yr. old 7 costs vrs a 5 yr old LS Ultra....both top of the line with Nav. and everything else.
If you have two German cars that have never had a mechanical or electrical problem, thats wonderful, but its not a valid statistic. Statistics say that the SC430 is the most faultless of any car in the world, and the LS430 is the most faultless sedan in the world. You cant argue with that.
The point I'm trying to make is, I dont think two years of good reliability is something to applaud. I expect that from a car. It would be like applauding the builders of my house because its been 5 years, and the roof hasnt fallen in.
My BMW e46 has 114k since 1999!
My anecdotal evidence will not persuade you or anyone. But it has has persuaded me.
But ask yourself if, when making his next purchase decision, an individual should go by the "sample of one" that his last purchase represents? Or does it make sense instead to refer to a broader sample?
Of course BMW covers fluid changes! Where'd you get that? They cover everything except tires and rotations for 4yr/50k.... including free oil changes, scheduled interval maintenance, belts, hoses, lightbulbs, wiper blades, and even brakes & rotors! I don't know about you, but I hate to have to shell out $500+ every year just in upkeep.
There's a ton of talk about "when you're out of warranty" or "long term"..... How many luxury car buyers keep their cars beyond the warranty period?
Consider this (courtesy of Consumer Guide): Half of all luxury vehicles are leased, so those people will always be under warranty. Of the remaining half, I'll be conservative and estimate that half of those will keep the car beyond the warranty coverage. Then, of course, of that remaining 25% of people who keep their cars a long time, how many got an extended warranty in anticipation of keeping their car a long time? (Don't know for sure, but I'll say 1/5 of those people). That comes to about 80% of people that don't need to worry about repair costs.
Perhaps these Edmunds forums attract that remaining 20%.... or perhaps just those that need to find something negative on BMW, et al.
It goes nicely with the rest of his car collection. He seems to have a preference for BMWs... 10 7s and only 2 Ss and 2 RRs. Oh BTW, that is his home, not a hotel -- and you can only see a small part of it in this picture.
And of course this is for the bright desert sun :shades:
Lexusguy,
did we not have this identical conversation before in another forum!
Initial year intros tend to have more bugs, that is a phenemona that exists not only with BMW but also with Lexus(Lexus GX470)!
The 97 5 series unreliable? Check the CR stats, the reliability is average. And average is not what I would call unreliable!
As I said please prove to me statistically that either the BMW3 and BMW5 series are unreliable!
I think it is long overdue that this "BMW unreliability myth bubble" should burst! In fact this myth is about the only justification in buying a Lexus. If everybody knew the hard and cold facts then very few would choose to buy an appliance-like Lexus!
Dependability has a relatively small maintance cost and pays bid dividends in lots of area's not just finincial.
I keep my cars until I don't trust them any longer ....If they leave me stranded anywhere even once I get another car. I they get old and beat up and tired, they have reached the point where I no longer trust them...OR....
Until a new pretty one catches my eye...like that 07 LS that will be out soon...A 4WD Hybrid really sounds interesting to me.
What are you suggesting by the above statement and can you back it up with statistics!
It is the Cleanest luxury car made...and will soon be out in Hybrid form...
Is the quietest car made...
Is the smoothest riding sedan made.
Does 0-60 in 5.9 sec.
Has pretty much every Safety device made...and because of the cars reliability ...THEY ALL WORK IF YOU NEED THEM.
One of the very nicest sound systems you can get in a luxury Sedan...Actually probably THE nicest.
An easy to use Nav system...All the safety stuff ABS, STABILITY CONTROL, Airbags everywhere...Emergency features using the Radar system to sense accidents about to happen...Radar cruse control...Self closing doors and trunk...Every luxury feature you can think of...
IT IS A DARN NICE APPLIANCE....and...It is reasonably priced...how much would the 7 series with all of the above cost????...You can get the Lexus for about $72,000 MSRP....
Luckly nothing that would keep you from going where you want to go....You can set the Mirrors to the open position...Listen to AM ..The laser cruse is tough to lose ...I use mine all the time....
P.S. If it was hit by a rock...After it is fixed....Find a Auto glass place that has Lexan ...There is a trim piece in the hole in the Bumper where the Laser unit is...It pops out ...You then have easy access from the right side under the bumper...The glass guy will cut you a piece of Lexan, a piece about 5x5 inches, He can put industrial strength two sided tape on the grid the unit is behind, and reach in from under the bumper to the right of the unit and stick it over the Radar/ laser Unit...about 1/8 in. lexan is ideal....but 1/4 in. is OK ...It doesn't effect how the unit works...
It is a good thing to do no matter what is wrong with your unit and if you need a new one or not....The Laser unit costs about $2000...to replace (insurance paid for mine) the Lexan cover Cost me nothing except the pizza I bought the guy and his crew because they did not charge me... will save you grief down the road. and if it gets all beat up it is easy to replace....The lens on the radar unit cannot be replace..you have to buy the whole thing.
I believe we are talking Ultra Luxury sedans here....it is true the GX470 got the Black X in 03....The only year I can find that any Lexus Product got a Black X
HARD STATS:
The LS 400/ 430 has never had a BLACK X...it is all red checks going back to 97 (as far back as my book goes)
All the Mercedes products got all black Xs going back to 97....EXCEPT one lonely red check for the Benz SLK in 1999...
The BMW 7 Got all Black Xs back to 97 except in 99 when there was insufficent data and in 01 when they didn't rate it's reliability. The 3 series got a red check in 02 and the 5 got Red checks in 01, 02 and 03 ....The Z 3-Z4 got a red check in 98.
What myth? It is a fact that Lexus is more reliable than BMW and BMW more reliable than MB.
Try going here http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/ratings/vehicles/FindJdAwards.jsp
and putting in some 2002 or earlier (for long-term reliability stats) Lexus, BMW, and MB vehicles, and some 2005 (for initial quality stats) Lexus, BMW, and MB vehicles.
After you're done, try saying its all a myth and keeping a straight face.
2005 VDS (long term reliability): http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089
Lexus #1
BMW #11
MB #28
2005 IQS (initial quality):
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005069
Lexus #1
BMW #3
MB #6
Lexus superior reliability....Myth or fact?
;-)
In fairness, syswei I think you're missing dewey's position that surveys (like the JD Powers 3 year Vehicle Dependability Studies (VDS) rankings) are of the whole range of models from each manufacturer, and thus he believes the problems with certain BMW models dragged down all of BMW. Unfortunately, it seems JDP doesn't list their VDS findings by model (except for the best-3-in-class, where the LS430 wins every year and BMW never appears), so it can't be used to make the argument.
But the CR ratings by model are certainly relevant. As you reported, the 7 clearly falls behind the LS. But the 5 does better than the 7.
A somewhat valid point if you're a customer for one of the more reliable models. If you happen to want a full-size luxury sedan, though...the 7 appears deficient in reliability terms.
In any event, using the link I provided earlier,
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/ratings/vehicles/FindJdAwards.jsp
shows the following (where 5 is the best possible score)
2002 VDS "overall dependability"
Lexus IS...4
Lexus ES...4
Lexus GS...5
Lexus LS...5
BMW 3-series...3
BMW 5-series...4
BMW 7-series...2
Mercedes C...2
Mercedes E...2
Mercedes S...2
2005 IQS "overall quality"
Lexus IS...5
Lexus ES...4
Lexus GS...5
Lexus LS...5
BMW 3-series...4
BMW 5-series...4
BMW 7-series...2
Mercedes C...3
Mercedes E...3
Mercedes S...3
Whether you take the average of all cars, or all cars+SUVs, in a company's lineup, or exclude the worst model from each company's lineup (based on what justification I don't know), the numbers are pretty clear.
BMW deserves plaudits for being the most reliable German luxury sedan company, and for being to many "the ultimate driving machine". I can certainly understand some people valuing sport and being willing to give up a little reliability. I just happen not to be one of them, but its a purely personal choice. I do respect BMW for what it offers. I even like the styling, overall.
But trying to say that Lexus reliability (vs BMW) is a "myth" would be like me trying to say that BMW's sportiness (vs Lexus) is a "myth". It just isn't supported by the facts.
That was not what I was saying!
Where in this forum did I say BMWs are more reliable than Lexus?
As I repeated many times the claims made here in this forum about horrid reliability problems for the BMW3/5 series are bogus!
I cant understand the following logic of most forum members here:
1)Lexus is #1, therefore BMW reliability will cause you to be stuck on roadsides!
2)BMW7 reliability sucks, therefore the reliability of all BMWs sucks!
The above logic is nothing more than a fictional myth!
I'd say you have now provided "statistics" to back the Lexus superior reliability claims against even the 5-series - at least as of the 2002 models, and Lexus superior initial quality even in 2005.
Of course, now we can go back to arguing why JDP studies aren't valid, etc. As I recall, one argument is something like German car buyers are pickier than Japanese car buyers, so they report more problems to JDP. I for one don't buy that for a New York[/Munich/Tokyo] minute.
Yeah but the Alamo is still in Texas, right?
Compare those scores to a '97 Q45. (There is no '97 GS data to use). The Q has a 5-10% problem rate with suspension, and apparently some brakes problems. Thats it. Every other catergory was pretty much perfect. Thats a reliable car. When you consider the fact that Lexus generally does better than Infiniti on reliability, its pretty hard to compare BMW to Lexus.
Additionally JD power 4-5yr LTD for the 5 is 4\5 for mechanical, 3\5 for body and interior, and 3\5 for features. The '98 GS, its initial year on the market, received perfect scores in all three catergories on the LTD study. You love to point out that the GX scored badly on its first year. Show me another Lexus model that did, I can point out plenty of BMWs that did besides the 5.
The fact is the 97 BMW 5 series does not have below-average reliability based on CR stats. Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??
When you consider the fact that Lexus generally does better than Infiniti on reliability, its pretty hard to compare BMW to Lexus.
I feel like a broken record because I repeated this point at least a dozen times within the last 24 hours in this forum:
I did not say BMWs are equivalent to the reliablity of a Lexus! I said BMW reliability is not as notorious as you are presenting it!
Pardon my following generalization:
The Lexus-attraction for many fourm members is based on irrational FEAR! The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE since such events can happen to any car including non-BMWs!
It is a shame that such fears will deprive so many forum members here from driving a car that they truly and passionately want to drive.
Yes, you did. Dewey: "my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!"
"Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??"
Can you point out an example of this? The only Lexus that has ever gotten a bad mark from CR is the '03 GX. I'm not disputing that it got one. The difference between the GX, and the E46 5 series, is that it took Lexus one year to fix every problem. The GX is now rated perfect. It took BMW four years to get the 5 series to have above average reliability, and even though the '01s are considered "above average", owners still have a lot more problems than owners of '98 initial year Lexus GS.
It took Audi 5 years to get the A4 up to average, and the '02s dropped below average. It took BMW 6 years to get the 7 series up to average, and the '02s dropped below average. As I said before, the time to buy German is the end of a model cycle.
"The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE"
So, I guess you're saying that all of the trouble I had with my '91 300E and '93 400SEL was all imaginary? Perhaps I hallucinated wasting.. lets see.. 30 hours between 1994 and 1996 taking my S to the shop? A lot of us Lexus drivers come from nightmare relationships with German cars. Believe it or not, we're not terribly interested in going back.
Between 1996 and 2005, I have wasted a grand total of zero hours at the shop.
BMWs best...The five series....Going back to 97 ...3 Red checks...Total.
Mercedes ALL BLACK Xs...On all models for all years back to 97 with one exception in 98 or 99
In San Antonio Texas...Just a small portion of a wall or two is left...of the orginal fort....You could say What is Left of the Alamo is still in Texas.
The actual scores for each item on the BMW are lousy. As I said before, the fact that they are not enough to drag it into the below average catergory simply means that most 8 year old cars are lousy. These tags ultimately say very little. This chart is a little more effective.