Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1…204205207209210…463

Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    LOL,

    I am already on pre-emptive alert for the upcoming siege! :surprise:
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I hope for MB's sake that the outcome is not the same as the Alamo.

    A draw would be nice.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    a brand searching for its reliability roots in an electronics era where the country of origin has weaknesses (this is Japan's forte)

    You sound convincing but there is only one problem!

    Electronics is no longer Japan's great strength! Look at the current demise of Sony and you will know what I am talking about! Whether Germany or Japan have national technological strengths is not as relevant to MB or Lexus as it was in the past!

    In this global economy MB or Lexus can outsource or purchase their technology from any company anywhere.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yes MB has reliability issues that should be addressed and is being adressed. Improving reliability is not a one year task. And it was silly for MB to say they want to be number one in reliability in the first place.

    It is easier to make a Corolla more reliable than a Lexus LS and it is more easy to make a LS more reliable than a more complex and expensive MB S series.

    IMO it would be wrong for MB to dumb down their cars for the sake of being number one in a JD Power survey.

    BUT it is also essential that MBs become relatively more reliable than they are today(but not neccesarily be #1)

    Status. Since MB is the highest-status mainstream brand, I think the average MB-buyer is more of a status-seeker than the average Lexus-buyer

    I keep on reading the following profiles of German or Japanese lux owner over and over again and these profiles are just so bogus!

    German Lux car buyer: Arrogant, snobby, sharp elbowed, superficial,obnoxious,image centred life.

    Japanese Lux car buyer: affluent but humble, likeable people who treat their fellow mankind with respect, do not care about image!

    If you honestly believe that a Lexus buyer is any less a image seeker than a MB buyer than you must have difficulty distinguishing Mother Theresa from Paris Hilton.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If you honestly believe that a Lexus buyer is any less a image seeker than a MB buyer than you must have difficulty distinguishing Mother Theresa from Paris Hilton.

    First of all, note that I was very careful to use the word "average" in my original post.

    Second, yes I do believe the average Lexus buyer is less of a status seeker. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about status. (For example, I'll admit that I care about status.)

    But if someone's number one priority is status, don't you think he will tend to gravitate toward the highest-status marque in his price range? Why would he settle for number 2 or 3 or 4 in status?

    Therefore, don't you think that people who place status as their number one priority will end up in MB more than any other mainstream brand? And that therefore the average MB owner is more of a status seeker than the average Lexus or Audi owner?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Same old stuff, just rehashed it seems.

    The 2007 S-Class is "dated" and has too much bulk - though it has yet to be seen in person by anyone here. I'm trying to find an article that says the car has too much bulk or that it looks like it does.

    Mercedes is struggling to find a new look for the marquee car while Lexus has been struggling to find a look for all of their cars and a "look" period for 15 years. Too funny. One questionable looking Mercedes-Benz (out of a mainly gorgeous lineup) and one freshly made non-ugly-from-the-moment-you-see-it Lexus and all of suddent Mercedes is struggling. Hilarious.

    The average Mercedes buyers is a status seeker and the average Lexus buyer isn't yet these are both luxury car brands that along with BMW arguably run the show right now. Nah status couldn't possibly be a factor when Japanese luxury car buyers choose Lexus over mere "Hondas" and "Nissans" at the Acura and Infiniti stores.

    I just love how status is something silly until Lexus gets mentioned in the same sentence with its Japanese competition.

    Yet if you go to the 2007 LS board you can't read 5 posts before you see something about Mercedes-Benz. The truth of the matter is Lexus is the most wannabe, status seeking brand in the luxury car market and most of its followers (not all) are no different when it comes to what they want for their prized synthetic brand, Mercedes-Benz's position in the status world. Can't say a thing about Lexus without the hyped up prediction about how Lexus will do this and that to Mercedes-Benz, like no other brands are even present. Lexus wants to have Mercedes postion in the market so bad to the point where it has become an obsesson for its fans to talk down on Mercedes, even when they really have nothing new to say. It just can't be helped.

    The new generation of the S-Class should swap places so one would know what direction Mercedes is going? Yet the new LS looks nothing like the current LS so I guess Lexus should swap places too then right? Sure, why not sell the 2001 LS430 (a knockoff of a 1992 S-Class) now and then go back in time and bring out the better looking 2007 model back in 2001 when Lexus was "searching for a look" for their cars. That way I'd know they weren't copying a Benz. Makes sense to me.

    Mercedes following BMW and Audi down the Idrive/MMi trail is yet another grave mistake because the "press" hated it so much in BMWs. Yet this is the same "press" that is utterly clueless when a Lexus doesn't win a comparo (IS350) or when the talk about how lame a Lexus like the SC430 looks and drives. But wait, Idrive is despised by the market too. A market in which BMW continues to sell more and more cars in. It seems that now Lexus is suffering from BMW envy also in order to be able to make such a false statement about what the market "despises" in the face of such good BMW sales.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The average Mercedes buyers is a status seeker and the average Lexus buyer isn't

    Once again, taking something someone says and mis-stating it to the extreme to make your point. I didn't suggest that Lexus buyers aren't on average, status seekers, I only suggested that on average they care less about status than MB buyers, again on average.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    At this point does it really make a difference? The only reason this distinction is even made is because Lexus doesn't have the status of MB or BMW. If they did it would be harped about all the time, but since they don't it is looked down upon. Especially since we're running with the assumption of what the average Mercedes buyer wants, an assumption that was is routinely rejected in other arguments.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Lexus is suffering from BMW envy

    You have this fixation on "envy" and "wannabe". Sure, Lexus as a company envies MB's status, for example. What company wouldn't? Do you think MB envies Lexus' reliability? If they don't, they should.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Sony products that fall apart come out of Malaysia and China. Not Japan. The stuff that Sony still makes in house is still as good as the stuff they were doing 20 years ago.

    While South Korea is starting to become a force to be reckoned with in electronics, thanks mostly to Samsung, they are still no match for Japan's giants, Yamaha, Mitsubishi, Matsushita, and Hitachi. Sony is a bit player.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't "look down on" status per se. Au contraire, I like status too. But I do look down a bit on people whose purchases are driven by status as their number one priority. Not every MB buyer qualifies, but more MB than Lexus or Audi buyers qualify.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm sure all car companies envy something about another car company, but the big huge difference is that nowhere else but on Lexus boards do you read so much about the competition and how Lexus is going to destroy everyone else, namely Mercedes-Benz. That is so ridiculous to me.

    Don't their cars stand on their own merits without the constant chatter about Mercedes-Benz, and now BMW? I think they do, so extreme envy is all I read into all this destroying MB and now BMW talk.

    How could you possibly know that more Benz buyers are status seekers compared to all other brands? IYO is needed there.

    However mis-guided it is, there are some who think a Lexus is more prestigious than a Mercedes. Audi well....you'd likely be right there.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Blink Blink - I missed the first part of that post. You like status? So Lexus having more status than say Acura or Infiniti is a plus to you?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yes I like and care about status, but status isn't the number one priority for me (otherwise I'd be driving MB or Bentley), and there is only so much that I'm willing to "pay" for higher status, everything else being equal.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok, so let us just say for instance that the Koreans push into the luxury car market. Say in 15 years time they managed to build cars that are equal to German and Japanese cars, but they didn't make up a brand name to sell them under like Toyota did for Lexus, would you buy one?

    Say if it were made by and sold as a Hyundai for instance.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yamaha, Mitsubishi, Matsushita, and Hitachi. Sony

    These were very important names when teens primary source of electronic entertainment was Pac Man.
    We are swerving off topic but let us look at who is number one in electronics

    Samsung is number one. Samsung's stock market value is larger than Matsushita and Sony combined(#1 and #2 Japanese consumer electronic companies) And it is not only Samsung. Let us not forget Apple, Nokia and the dozens of Korean/Taiwanese companies that are number one in their niches.

    Times have changed!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Possibly. If the Korean is equal in every way to whatever I am driving at the time, except for price and status, then it depends on how much status I lose versus how much money I save.

    Right now, the status of Lexus vs for example Toyota is worth 4 but not 5 figures to me (which explains in part my choice of the LX over a TLC). When I look at sedans in the LS/S/7 class, the lower status of the LS doesn't come remotely close, for me, to offsetting the higher price and lower reliability of the S. (Though there are other factors as well.)
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Merc:
    Would you buy one? Assuming everything is equal and you liked the styling as much as you like MBs.

    I bought an M35x 8 months ago because I liked almost everything about it. My wife liked the E. I have a partner who was pushing the E as well. I like status as well, (and MB clearly has more than Infiniti) but I went for the M as status is not very high on my list.

    Personally, if the M was badged as a Nissan, I would've still bought it.

    It all depends on where you rank things on your list.

    My list:
    1) Practicality (3 growing kids)--includes cost and size
    2) Fun (includes grunt and handling)
    3) Safety (3 kids again)
    4 tie) Styling
    4 tie) Reliability
    5) MPG
    6) Status

    The first four are all pretty close. The next two are not.

    So if Kia or Hyundai produced a car that matched my list, of course I would buy if it beat out others. Everyone's list is different, though. What does your list look like?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Well since merc1 was talking about Korean cars, Samsung isn't totally off topic. In my own mind Samsung has gone in a very short time, like 3 years, from a so-so brand to a desireable brand. In my case that's only from observing that their LCD PC screens are well-reviewed, and that they are the market-share leader in DLP RPTVs.

    I have predicted before that the Koreans will eventually be a force in luxury cars, and that 10 years from now some of the guys on this board will be defending Lexus against an onslaught of a new generation of Korean luxury car fans.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Let us not forget Apple, Nokia and the dozens of Korean/Taiwanese companies that are number one in their niches.

    Nokia is Finnish....
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Status bores me. I can honestly say I pay almost no attention to it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I would love to jump in on this but I am not convinced the LF-Sh is the next LS.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc.

    So The quality and reliability of Lexus, The Mercedes looks (up to 06) The lexus Ride, sound and quiet and Mercedes amenities ... At a low Hyundai price...but with the Hyundai name.

    Ie a great car at a great price but with NO STATUS...would I buy it...Yes, I would remember 90-91 when Lexus came out and how great that car was and what a great bargin it was.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Nokia is Finnish....

    And Apple Corp. is American as pie. I was not only talking about Koreans.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    You can be 99% assured the LF-Sh is the next LS. If the similarities to the GS and IS don't prove it, take a look at the LF-Sh article in the new AutoWeek. It says the car is 85% what the new LS will be (with items like the exhaust and grille changing in production). And the fact that so many elements are fully developed, according to the article, proves this is more than a concept.
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    When a car company (any company) starts, the most important quality they should have is reliability. And then they can talk about performance and features.

    Rolls-Royce, LandRover and MB all started being extremely reliable machines. That's how they earned their name and became "prestigious" and had "status". As time went by, RR and LR are reliable no more and therefore they cannot hold the mainstream market anymore. Eventually they lost so much money they had to be sold or go bankrupt. MB is better in reliability (than RR, LR). But the recent downturn is hurting the "status" for sure.

    Lexus, on the other hand, is just like Rolls-Royce, when it started.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I too think that the electronics industry analogy is telling. According to BusinessWeek, Samsung has overtaken Sony as the most valuable electronics brand name in the world.

    Not that long ago, Sony was the undisputed king, and people would have laughed at you if you were to predict what would be the perception now. Sony has had trouble with lagging products and business management. They made a crucial mistake by not getting in the plasma business when others were going in and now they don't produce any. At the time, they arrogantly said that their CRTs were so good that they didn't need to go into plasmas. I see Panasonic overtaking Sony in the not too distant future.

    Samsung has made an incredible climb. And don't forget the other Korean giant, LG, they are a force as well. Samsung and LG are the top manufacturers in the world of both plasma and LCD panels, and have significant share of everything else from refrigerators to cell phones. Do people even remember hearing the name LG ten short years ago?

    So what does this have to do with cars?

    Top dogs (like MB and BMW) gotta lose their arrogant, "we're invincible" attitude. And even fast-rising stars such as Toyota/Lexus have to watch their backs as well. Fortunes can and do change.

    http://bwnt.businessweek.com/brand/2005/
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Unreliabile German cars are a common mantra in this forum.

    During the 1970s when I way a kid I pleaded that my dad's next car should be a German car like a Audi Fox or a BMW2002.

    His response: "German cars are unreliable and too costly to maintain! I will buy a Ford LTD instead"!

    Yeah that was three decades ago and German Luxury/Performance cars have successfully increased US market share since that time despite certain reliability issues!

    And here is the mantra I always repeat in this forum:

    Reliability does not define a High Marque car!

    Performance,Luxury, Handling,Ride,Exerior and Interior Design, Quality Fit and Finish and a High Image Badge are the main factors that define a high marque car.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    German Luxury/Performance cars have successfully increased US market share

    Only vs the overall US car market, since the luxury segment has grown. MB in particular has LOST share of the luxury segment, while gaining some share of the overall market.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Lenscap, do you have a link for the Autoweek article or is it in the subscription center? You’re saying 99%, however you quote the article to say 85%. As far as I am concerned, 85% is way off the mark and is evasive on the part of Lexus if it originates with them. In addition, any similarities to the GS and IS prove nothing IMO. Furthermore, I don’t see too many similarities.

    And if the 85% figure DOES come from Lexus, this convinces me even more that we will see something considerably different. I’ve said this rather recently, styling is like a house of cards—make a couple of wrong moves and the image collapses.

    I find it curious how there was no official confirmation of the styling from Lexus officials at the Tokyo show, only speculation by the press. Refresh my memory please… were the GS and IS shown as styling concepts that came to fruition? I don’t think so. Lexus moves in strange ways and they are very good at stealth. Who knows why but it is obviously part of their MO. I think it could be a marketing tactic to optimize sales, ride the wave of launch frenzy.

    Lastly, I think there could be a good reason why the doors were bolted closed at Tokyo—it might have been a shell.

    I could be wrong, but at this point LF-Sh is just a concept to me and I’ll believe it when Lexus officially unveils it as thee LS. Lexicans are like rock fans camping out at the ticket window three days before the tickets go on sale. Well, in all fairness so are many other auto enthusiasts.

    ;-)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    No,

    we are talking market share and not absolute numbers. German Market share gains overall were at the expense of Cadillac and Lincoln.

    Nobody here can deny the great success that was achieved by MB, BMW, Audi and Porsche these past three decades.

    Lexus and Infiniti's growth looks exceptionally impressive since they started with a sales base of ZERO about 15 years ago!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Most of Samsung's worth comes from the fact that they dominate the semiconductor industry. In terms of consumer electronics, they dont have much of anything, other than their TVs, which I will admit are very good, but Toshiba's are better. Anybody can make microwaves or cheap DVD players.

    Asia's best electronics come from Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, and Onkyo, all Japanese companies. The best cameras in the world are from Canon and Nikon, both Japanese companies.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexusguy,

    Samsung makes the best plasma and LCD TVs in the industry. Not Toshiba!

    Apple Ipods make Sony Walkmans look like relics from another era! Panasonic(Matsushita) has nothing to compare!

    Kodak is number one in USA for digital cameras!

    Pioneer lives up to its name--it is a pioneer in the historic sense as the pilgrims were.

    The best and most expensive music stereos are not from Japan but are from Bang and Olfuson, a European firm

    The best cell phones(an important electronic gadget) is dominated by Nokia, Samsung and Motorola.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Good points especially re cameras. But look at cellphones...personally I respect Samsung and LG there, more so than Sony, and I haven't seen market share numbers but I suspect the Koreans may be doing better than the Japanese.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Kodak is number one in USA for digital cameras!

    They are the Chevy of digicams, not the MB or Lexus.

    The best and most expensive electronics are from Bang and Olfuson a European firm

    B&O is all about style, not about audiophile qualities. On the whole, high end US and UK brands are better regarded in the audio world than continental European.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Lexus and Infiniti's growth looks exceptionally impressive since they started with a sales base of ZERO about 15 years ago!

    Are you trying to minimize what Lexus has done? Does it get under your skin that they have gone from number none (zero share in the US in 1988 as you pointed out) to number 1? Do you think that what they have done is somehow easier than for instance going from number 2 or 3 to number 1?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Are you trying to minimize what Lexus has done?

    What Lexus has done and is doing in terms of sales is fantastic!

    I did not imply anything by saying they started from zero.

    BUT Lexus is not number one in terms of car sales and never were! Lexus sales is number one primarily because of SUV sales!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Samsung makes much more than TVs. They do dominate the semiconductor industry, but most of their worth comes from consumer electronics. The four biggest companies just in terms of consumer electronics are Sony, Samsung, Matsushita and LG.

    Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Nikon and Canon are bit players that are good at certain niche markets, such as audio or cameras. Pioneer and Toshiba are more diversified, but nowhere near the size of the top 4.

    BTW, Panasonic and Pioneer make the best plasmas, Sharp makes the best LCDs, and Sony still makes the best CRTs. Samsung is very good in all three, but not the best in any.

    And forget projection TVs, they're on their death bed or will soon be.

    Anyways, getting back to cars, has it been confirmed that the "3 bulbs in each headlight" design of the LS-sh will make it to production? That's my favorite design element of that car.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Lexus and Infiniti's growth looks exceptionally impressive since they started with a sales base of ZERO about 15 years ago!

    I agree that it is impressive where they stand. However, I don't think that they were quite at "nothing" when they started...

    As everyone knows, Lexus is Toyota's big brother and Infiniti is Nissan's big brother. IMO, as the Baby Boomers got a little older and a little wealthier, they upgraded from their Camrys and Maximas into something nicer, but still something they were familiar with. It was (and still is) a pretty natural transition from Toyota to Lexus and Nissan to Infiniti.

    Now don't start flaming me, because I'm not saying that a Lexus is just a Toyota and Infiniti is just a Nissan.... I'm saying that moving from one to the other is a natural transition. If someone is used to and happy with Toyota, they may very easily end up getting a Lexus.

    With this all in mind, I think that the luxury branches of the established manufacturers had a jumpstart and were never quite at "zero"...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Let's re-state that in better terms:

    MB and BMW completely missed the SUV market development.

    That's the real story. Lexus focused on the most important growth segment that existed in the last ten years and dominates it in the lux space. If you're going to say something negative pick something that is logical and makes sense. BTW - history may be repeating itself with the hybrid market.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Dewey:

    It tells me your dad was wise enough to see what was coming

    God Bless him
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Panasonic has raise it's head as a digital camera market in the under $800 dollar market...their top Camera the FZ30 is an exceptional camera ...check it out.

    I am guessing in the next 5 years they will muscle their way up to the top 3 Japanese camera companies.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I love my Nikon D70.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Don't get me started on cameras...I spend as much time on digital photo sites as I do auto sites.

    BTW, I love my wife's D70 also. If I had to pick (and had the lenses to begin with), I would go for the Canon 20D. Both are fabulous.

    Oh yeah, cars...neither the D70 or 20D can corner very well, though.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If you're going to say something negative pick something that is logical and makes sense.

    I stated a fact. What is negative about the fact that Lexus is #1 in luxury vehicles in the USA but not in cars. What is so senseless and illogical in stating that fact!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'm also a D70 owner. Check dpreview.com for news on the D200 and 18-200 VR announced a few days ago.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I have predicted before that the Koreans will eventually be a force in luxury cars, and that 10 years from now some of the guys on this board will be defending Lexus against an onslaught of a new generation of Korean luxury car fans.

    Looks like the new Hyundai is already being compared to the Toyota Avalon, and even the Lexus ES330! Can the "Ultimate Driving Experience" be next?

    Hyundai Embraces Luxury
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Dpreview is my favorite site for product info. Luminous Landscape is my choice for techniques and tricks. I need to find the price for the new Nikon lens (18-200 VR)--bet it's steep. It may be a perfect choice for those "one-lens-only" trips, though. We use the D70 when size doesn't matter. I have a Minolta A1 for the quick point-and-shoot (ie. grab and run--not for shutter lag, the D70 stomps it for that).

    They take great pics of luxury marque cars! (But for some reason, pics of the new S from these cameras make the rear fenders seem overly-flared over the wheel wells.)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The 18-200 VR is supposed to be around $700, according to things I have seen in the dpreview forum. Not so surprising since it appears based on the 24-120 VR (which is what I usually use).

    If the S fenders look funny in your pictures, it is time to get a new camera. It couldn't possibly be the car's fault!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So if Kia or Hyundai produced a car that matched my list, of course I would buy if it beat out others. Everyone's list is different, though. What does your list look like?

    Well my list would be a little different since there is only me to worry about.

    1. Styling - if a car is ugly and/or bland I couldn't care any less about it. No boring or ugly cars.

    2. Performance - Quality - Reliability - Comfort are pretty much all equally important after #1 for me. A car is imo no good if high quality, but has lousy seats and it is slow. Likewise a fast car with too little comfort is a problem too. These all get looked at equally after styling/design in my book. I unlike most here would trade on some of these if the car is of knockout design and/or peformance though. I like a more well rounded car.

    To answer the question I posed earlier, yes I'd buy the car if it met all my criteria. After all I'd buy a VW Phaeton if I had the means to do so. It is a very desireable car imo despite lacking status and reliability.

    M
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles