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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    When a car company (any company) starts, the most important quality they should have is reliability. And then they can talk about performance and features.

    According to you that is. Plus that statement implies that Germans and in particular Mercedes' "quality" is so bad to the point where it renders every other positive aspect of the car pointless. That is the thinking here that I will always disagree with. If you're fine with having a car of supreme reliability but boring as all getout on other fronts so be it.

    Secondly Rolls didn't start out with lame designs and/or mimicing designs from other companies for the biggest and best cars. Big difference. Rolls was also an innovator, not a follower.

    M
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    According to you that is. Plus that statement implies that Germans and in particular Mercedes' "quality" is so bad to the point where it renders every other positive aspect of the car pointless. That is the thinking here that I will always disagree with. If you're fine with having a car of supreme reliability but boring as all getout on other fronts so be it.

    Secondly Rolls didn't start out with lame designs and/or mimicing designs from other companies for the biggest and best cars. Big difference. Rolls was also an innovator, not a follower.

    Rolls was reliable and was an innovator, 70 years ago.

    As for MB, in terms of reliablity, they are not in the same situation as in Rolls. At least the C and E class have about the industry average score. That's why they are still a volumn seller. And that's also why their sales ranks only 5th in the U.S.
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    BUT Lexus is not number one in terms of car sales and never were! Lexus sales is number one primarily because of SUV sales!

    Nothing wrong with that.
    Porsche is also known as Porsche the truck company.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Hey, quite a few of us that bought a Lexus recently have gone on record here as really having wanted to be able to get an MB, and looking forward to being able to do so in the future when MB gets its reliability act together again. Of course, now some of us are also less than thrilled with the styling of the upcoming S."

    Yup - exactly!!

    Having agreed with the above - just got back from Simi Valley, CA., and you can't swing a dead cat there without hitting a Benz - mostly C-classes, probably for fuel efficiency, but still - they're EVERYWHERE!!!!!
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    "After all I'd buy a VW Phaeton if I had the means to do so. It is a very desireable car imo despite lacking status and reliability. "

    If it is so desireable, why is so few people buying it?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "When I look at sedans in the LS/S/7 class, the lower status of the LS doesn't come remotely close, for me, to offsetting the higher price and lower reliability of the S."

    Precisely my feelings about why I own an LS rather than the more attractive, and higher regarded S-Class. The next generations of both though - may change that whole status thing....
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "If it is so desireable, why is so few people buying it?"

    Because it's a VW. How many Jaguars do you think would be sold with a FORD Badge on 'em?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The next generations of both though - may change that whole status thing....

    Agreed that Lexus' status vs MB is on an upward path. I think that's due to a combination of factors: quality/reliability, the passage of time, hybrid innovation, MB mis-steps with reliability. In time the price gap will close...only the degree and pace at which that will happen are unknown.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "I have predicted before that the Koreans will eventually be a force in luxury cars, and that 10 years from now some of the guys on this board will be defending Lexus against an onslaught of a new generation of Korean luxury car fans.

    Looks like the new Hyundai is already being compared to the Toyota Avalon, and even the Lexus ES330! Can the "Ultimate Driving Experience" be next?"

    EXACTLY!! BMW & MB had better starting worrying about their next assault, as should the Japanese. Korea is building some great product now - but their perception is still not so great. Those who have them though, are sold. That perception will coming along just like the Japanese perception did.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I was quite impressed by the Kia Amanti I rented about 4 months ago. The steering was too light and the suspension too soft, but for the price the features and quality especially of the interior (fake wood though) were a surprise to me.

    I wish the Japanese would copy the Koreans' 10 year warranty.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Remember, I'm not talking about sales numbers here. I'm talking about precision, ultra high quality manufacturing and design, what Japan was, and still is, known for. I dont think any electronic device requires more precision than a camera, and nobody builds cameras like the Canon EOS-1ds or Nikon D2X.

    Sure, everybody and their grandmother has an iPod, but are you seriously trying to convince me that iPods are built better than comparable devices from Japan? How many class action lawsuits for defective quality have their been against Apple iPod products? I think I lost count.

    Denon has the highest quality home electronics of any "mass market" company on the planet. Only botique shops like Linn, or Meridian are better.

    Everybody I know that has a serious cell phone uses either a Treo 650 or a Blackberry.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "I wish the Japanese would copy the Koreans' 10 year warranty."

    Why? They don't need it. It's Ford and GM who need to copy that warranty, and FAST!!!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    No, they don't need it in a business sense, I just meant it would be a nice thing from the customer point of view.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "so effectively hides its mechanicals and the outside world that it can feel like it's a simulation of a wonderfully luxurious sedan"

    "body roll in a car without the optional active body control was excessive enough to make my passenger feel as if his inner ear had been kicked in the groin"

    Sounds more like an LS every day! ;)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "No, they don't need it in a business sense, I just meant it would be a nice thing from the customer point of view."

    Well, it wouldn't hurt, certainly, but customer's don't need it either really. Not much goes wrong with Toyotas & Hondas at least.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Very much in agreement, and I may add another reason for this development: the Chinese carmakers are coming soon; if the Korean's don't move up market, they'd be as dead as the domestic brands (only minus the shipping advantage). That's probably the reason why Toyota is moving itself upmarket, leaving Scion to compete with the Koreans and Chinese.

    Fundamentally, the worth of a high end marquee has to be built on reliability, just like MB once did, and Rolls-Royce before that. The coach building part of the exercise is easy to do once you have a following.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    After all I'd buy a VW Phaeton if I had the means to do so. It is a very desireable car imo despite lacking status and reliability.

    Put yourself in the shoes of someone with the means, chances are that you'd think very different:
    the primary attraction of Phaeton is comparable luxury at a saving of $20k or so; if you care about saving that $20k, chances are that you are still a member of the "working rich," one who has to show up on time either at the office or at client meetings; one who works 60 hours a week, and don't necessarily have weekends off every week. That means you can't afford to call in for car troubles (or don't even have a boss to call in), and your time is worth way too much for getting aquainted with the service department on first name basis.

    It's the same reason why MB customer retention rate is dropping in recent years.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The Japanese go back over 40 years in this industry and their standing as upper crust car makers is currently debated. Maybe we should let the Korean and Chinese car manufacturers pay their dues and establish themselves as high-end luxury marques before we start talking about them in this thread. I mean, this is for our great great great grand children to wrangle with.
  • torquetaculartorquetacular Member Posts: 4
    The typical buyer of luxury sedans with prices north of $70k probably isn't going to be as stretched as the "working rich" and would be able to afford a $10-15k stretch to buy an M-B S class or a 750. There will be a few who opt for the VW on pirce, but, for better or for worse, the badge on the front has value for the mainstream luxury buyer. Coincidentally, it is also that mainstream buyer who determines which cars sell well and which don't. Still, I'd count on the Phaeton to steal some sales from E500 4matic shoppers who have issues with a $65k E-Class.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    As far as I know, the Phaeton has stolen sales from nobody. Its been a huge commercial failure, both here and in Europe. It was an answer to a question no one asked.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "As far as I know, the Phaeton has stolen sales from nobody. Its been a huge commercial failure, both here and in Europe. It was an answer to a question no one asked."

    I'm afraid, I have to agree completely.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I dont think any electronic device requires more precision than a camera, and nobody builds cameras like the Canon EOS-1ds or Nikon D2X.

    Technology of digital cameras does not require more precison than other consumer electronic products ,chips, semiconductors,servers,data storage . Japanese companies strengths as innovators in the mentioned industries have declined relative to US and Korean firms.

    Now how did we get into this highly irrelevant discussion?

    It all started with a post suggesting that the Germans lack electonic expertise like the Japanese. My response is that in a global economy that is highly irrelevant.

    And even if it was relevant that would not change things since the key electronic complaints for BMWs and MBs are related to ipod and Command software issues! It is mainly a software issue versus a hardware issue.

    And guess which country has the second largest software firm in the world--after Microsoft? SAP from Germany! Software engineering is a strength in Germany and not a weakness! But BMW and MB are the ones with software problems! Why?

    Back to my original point: In a global economy it does not matter where technology is located. What is relevant is how well a auto firm incorporates that technology in their products.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The critical European failure is in system integration. It hardly matters whether SAP is larger than any Japanese software company (BTW, SAP database sucks pretty bad) when NAV systems on Toyota and Honda are lightly years ahead of those used on the MB and BMW. The system integration failure can come down to something as trivial as light bulb enclosure heat dissipation. All the European cars that I have owned I had/have to replace rear lights or front lights every few months; that kind of thing just does not happen with Honda and Toyota. The German failure is lacking attention to detail, the proverbial RR engineers that would go out of his way to make the damn clock quiet.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    At least the C and E class have about the industry average score. That's why they are still a volumn seller. And that's also why their sales ranks only 5th in the U.S.

    Doesn't quite make sense to me. Their sales have a lot more to do with just their reliability standings. Age of design, competition, price a whole lot of things have to do with sales than just reliability. Brands like Land Rover prove that reliability isn't everything and probably isn't such the big killer issue some people here make it out to be. The S-Class is in its 7th model year and still is a "volume" seller in its class without the precious CR recommendation.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If it is so desireable, why is so few people buying it?

    I think we've been over this before here, but there are many, many reasons why the VW Phaeton flopped. Price for a VW, that it is a VW, literally no promotion, a dealer body that is virtually clueless about customers who buy 70K cars, VW's bad reliability reputation etc. etc.

    The car itself is fine enough (except for maybe reliability) but everything else around it is wrong and/or unfit for it to thrive in this market.

    The Phaeton, like this new Bugatti were the vision of a bright, but market mad Mr. Piech. Gladly he isn't running the VW show anymore.

    His efforts would have have been much better spent on making the Passat and Jetta more affordable. The new Passat is an awesome car but out of reach for the average family car buyer, when fully loaded that is. Though the car absolutely creams others cars in the class.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No argument from me there. People that get burned by any brand nowadays are less likely to buy the same brand again with so many different (and good) choices around today.

    Still though the big Veedub's biggest problem is that it is a grand answer to a question no one asked.

    That said I still wouldn't mind having one one day. I think it will make hell of a used car buy in a few years, if you have the money and time to deal with it.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    All the European cars that I have owned I had/have to replace rear lights or front lights every few months

    That is news to me. Never heard of such an extreme complaint before. Sounds like your abusing your German cars with water torture ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    (BTW, SAP database sucks pretty bad) when NAV systems on Toyota and Honda are lightly years

    Hmmm, maybe that is because database is not SAP's primary business? :P

    "The critical European failure is in system integration"

    You re-worded my prior post from yesterday where I wrote the following:

    The key fault of German auto firms is incorporating technology in their cars.

    My whole point was not whose software/electronic industry is better or worse! I repeat my point is it is irrelevent if you are a car manufacturer in a world where software/electronics is globalized.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I don't disagree with you at all. I would just add that the compulsion is different between cultures, which produces a different result - ie; The European compulsion is to make a refined, performing machine that will last mechanically forever, and go really fast all day long. The Aisans compulsion is Zero-Defects. The Europeans expect some maintenance issues during the life of the car, but it must go fast and mechanically be sound. Light bulbs are minor issues to them, as are many other things. Comand, being one. The Aisans are shamed when that light bulb fails, so every component must be excellent, but how fast the car goes - not important.

    That's why they're different, and then there's the American culture, which has been shaped by years of dominance, which has been - get it out there as cheaply and as fast as you can, and it should last 2-3 years, after that, it's on the used market and who cares? Now, that has been changed in the past decade or so, but only because of necessity through competition from abroad, especially from the Aisans.

    Bottom line? Depends on what your priority is. If you hate maintenance, for whatever reason, you need an Asian car. If you like driving pleasure and excitement, then a European car is likely for you. If you don't care about either, buy American. (Just kidding!) The American car is evolving quickly into the best of both, in some models. But that's for another discussion.
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    There is no poorly built car, but only poorly priced ones. Even the Cavaliers are sold in quantities, because they are cheap.

    The problem with VW Phaeton is that it is overpriced. Remeber the 1st gen Lexus LS? How much it undercut the S-class? Heck, the earliest LS was cheaper than E500!

    For a car as unestablished as the Phaeton. It has to be substantially cheaper than benchmarks such as the S-class, 7-series and LS430. The price may go up, if it proves to be a hit.

    IMO, $50k(10k under LS) is about the right price for Phaeton. If VW cannot make money at that price range, then just don't build it. At $70k(10k over LS), I am indeed surprised the Phaeton sold 4-figures per year.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There is no poorly built car, but only poorly priced ones

    Not sure I agree. There are enough horror stories out there about MB in recent years that I wonder if some of their cars could indeed have been called "poorly built". For instance check this fellow's story:
    ejerod, "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" #1611, 29 Apr 2004 9:13 am

    OK, since then MB has improved some in the IQS, but still ranks below Lexus, BMW, and others; and the jury is still out on how much long-term reliability has been improved.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The problem with VW Phaeton is that it is overpriced.

    No way is the Phaeton overpriced! The Phaeton is cheaper than the S-Class and 7-Series. It wasn't intended from the start to compete with cars like the LS430 which isn't a "benchmark" in Europe. Europe being where VW wanted to make an engineering statement in MB's face. Selling it here was debated, delayed and then half-done. The car was intended to be a cheaper rival to the S-Class and to a lesser degree the 7-Series and it is cheaper than those cars.

    The problem with the Phaeton is the VW badge, dealer body and to a lesser degree VW's bad reliability reputation.

    You're right the first generation LS400 was cheap. If I remember right it was about the price of a 190E, around 35K base and 41K or so with the few options it had back then.

    No one can build a car of the LS or Phaeton's specification for that type of money in today's market. Not gonna happen. The Phaeton is priced right compared to its other German rivals, but everything else is off as I mentioned above. The biggest problem is that "VW" stands for inexpensive cars, not luxury cars. Phaetons can be had for 10-15K off sticker according to some on these boards, now if that doesn't sell them it has to be the badge. That and the fact that most people don't even know the car exists.

    Now imo if VW wanted to "save" the car they should bring over the SWB Phaeton with the V8 and sell it for E500/550i/A6 4.2 money. That might interest buyers in the same way some buyers look at an E500 or A6 4.2. and then find a much bigger LS430 far more attractive because they see the similarly priced base LS430 as a rung up from the mere mid-size/level luxury cars. I seriously doubt they'll throw any more money at the Phaeton at this point, but I think it would work.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think that once the "CLS" version of the Passat arrives, that will be the end of the Phaeton. I'm not even sure that is a good idea... the Passat is expensive enough already. Do they need to make a "sexy" version with a $5K+ price hike? The CLK competitor they are working on is also questionable. Not exactly a replacement for the Cabriolet.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah thats what I've read too. VW isn't under the rule of Piech anymore so there will be no more Phaetons. To think at one time this madness included a VW based on the A6 also. Would have likely been a brilliant but totally irrelevant car. Now the new 4-door coupe version of the Passat I'm all for because it will make use of mainly existing hardware. What CLK competitor? You're not talking about the Eos are you?

    BTW, I finally got my C&D and this new Passat is some car, but at 38K it won't get the chance to really prove it to many Camry/Accord/Sonta/Fusion etc. buyers. Just looking that the comparo in the same issue clearly shows the Passat to be a vastly superior car imo.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "The problem with the Phaeton is the VW badge, dealer body and to a lesser degree VW's bad reliability reputation."

    Have to agree with ya on this one, MERC1. I won't buy any VW, even the cute Beetle for my wife, who has wanted one at least, when they first came out. I sure won't pay MB prices for one.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I don't disagree with you at all. I would just add that the compulsion is different between cultures, which produces a different result - ie; The European compulsion is to make a refined, performing machine that will last mechanically forever, and go really fast all day long. The Aisans compulsion is Zero-Defects. The Europeans expect some maintenance issues during the life of the car, but it must go fast and mechanically be sound. Light bulbs are minor issues to them, as are many other things. Comand, being one. The Aisans are shamed when that light bulb fails, so every component must be excellent, but how fast the car goes - not important.

    That's why they're different, and then there's the American culture, which has been shaped by years of dominance, which has been - get it out there as cheaply and as fast as you can, and it should last 2-3 years, after that, it's on the used market and who cares? Now, that has been changed in the past decade or so, but only because of necessity through competition from abroad, especially from the Aisans.

    Bottom line? Depends on what your priority is. If you hate maintenance, for whatever reason, you need an Asian car. If you like driving pleasure and excitement, then a European car is likely for you. If you don't care about either, buy American. (Just kidding!) The American car is evolving quickly into the best of both, in some models. But that's for another discussion.

    I have been travelling in some European regions where getting access to e-mails was not the norm (e.g. the Swabian enclave of Biberach, Germany; not too far off from Stuttgart) I am used to here in the US. Just got back home and checking Edmunds, only to find debates on HELM heating up... But none more so unusual than the above post from nvbanker.

    I am shocked.... that nvbanker wrote 3 lenghty paragraphs.... Shocking !!! What weighty issue led to this ???? Rather than his usual 1-line bantering, or occassional 2-liners.... Maybe the moon is half-out or something ??? :)

    And I find myself agreeing with his post...might as well since I have never read so much words from him....
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Just got back home and checking Edmunds, only to find debates on HELM heating up...

    Nah, it's basically the same ol’ drivel. Go unpack, have a cocktail, dinner, then come back to the computer and pay attention… I’m sure you will find something to torque you off.

    ;-)
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    Now imo if VW wanted to "save" the car they should bring over the SWB Phaeton with the V8 and sell it for E500/550i/A6 4.2 money.

    Or they could take the Phaeton, rebadge it as an Audi only and call it the A8. :confuse:
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Dewey:

    If it were irrelevent...The German cars would not have the problem with Electronic or software or whatever problems that they have now. Why are asian cars reliable but German cars are not (relative to the Japanese at least)

    Why are they having problems in this Globalized world?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Isnt the EOS aimed at the CLK?

    Sure the Passat is superior to the family sedan class, but at $38K, its no longer in that class. Its competing with G, IS, TL, C, 3, and the A4 as well. Is it better than those cars?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That is news to me. Never heard of such an extreme complaint before. Sounds like your abusing your German cars with water torture

    Not at all. I have been treating my cars more or less the same, regardless whether they were made in Japan or Germany or Sweden (never had an American car, so don't know anything on that score). The Headlights are either designed to be daytime driving lights or I turn them in day time if there is no dedicated driving lights; nothing more than basic safety precaution. The result? replacement bulbts every few months on the German and Swedish cars, but hardly ever on the Japanese. The rear lights' pattern is just the same; I don't even directly control those lights myself. Speaking of water torture, two German and one Swedish cars did develop water leak in the back, but none of the Japanese.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    My whole point was not whose software/electronic industry is better or worse! I repeat my point is it is irrelevent if you are a car manufacturer in a world where software/electronics is globalized.

    Software/electronics have been globalized for ages. The carmaker as the system integrator is responsible for making the decision of shopping on the global market, and the European carmakers are really bad shoppers, ever since the days of Lucas Electronics.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Being a lifetime owner of German cars I have not a clue what you are talking about nor do I see stats that back up what you are saying!

    The fact that you are generalizing that all German cars have bulb issues seems a bit vague!

    A specific model from a specific year from a specific manufacturer maybe? But saying German cars in general have bulb problem is like saying Germans invented German measels or German Shepherds!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I was thinking the same thing. At $38k, it's TL if not RL territory. The RL is vastly superior to the new Passat in every which way. The eos sounds like an interesting car; head-on competition to Volvo C70. Hopefully the folding tops don't fizzle like the G6 does.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I suppose, "unusual" is in the eyes of beholder. When I only had BMW's in the first half decade of my car ownerhsip, I thought replacing a bulb every few months was nothing unusual; after all those cars had close to a dozen light bulbs on the outside. After I had Japanese cars, I realized that does not have to be part of the life of a motorist. I actually never had to replace a single bulb on the half dozen Japanese cars that I have owned.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So where are the German car owners that have shared your bulb experiences? It seems you had bad luck just as some individuals may end up having bad luck owning a lemon of a Japanese car. That does happen you know!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If it were irrelevent...The German cars would not have the problem with Electronic or software or whatever problems that they have now. Why are asian cars reliable but German cars are not (relative to the Japanese at least)

    Why do German cars have more electronic/software problems? I am no automotive system integrator, but I can at least make a guess! The MB S series and BMW7s have more advanced technology/gizmos than what exists in any Japanese luxury marque.

    Adding complexity tends to add bugs that tend to add problems.

    The most reliable Toyotas are not the expensive Lexus LS but the cheap Corolla. Why? Because the Corolla is not as complex as a Lexus LS.

    Is it mere coincidence that the more expensive a car is, the less likely it will be reliable?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    dewey - the LS is every bit as technology advanced as your German marquees. It is literally faultless next to them. The reason was pointed out perfectly by NV banker in his assessment of core values. Let's be realistic about this - electronics are Japan's baby, engineering is Germany's. But it is easier to catch up on and master the latter than it is to catch up and master the former.

    BTW - I'm a CFO - SAP is terrible. It takes what is simple and makes things complex. It has accounting solutions that work but are illogical on how they got you there. Sort of like circling NYC a few times before you realized the Lincoln tunnel or mid-town tunnel existed to take you into mid-town. It requires a heavy tech person while most accounting software packages have eliminated that need. It's also expensive and requires heavy maintenance and unlike BMW SAP doesn't give you that free. I got rid of it.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As you got rid of SAP, SAP is eating the lunch/lunches of every single one of its competitors including Oracle.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    electronics are Japan's baby, engineering is Germany's. But it is easier to catch up on and master the latter than it is to catch up and master the former

    Obviously you financial types tend to underestimate engineers!
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