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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • rgswrgsw Member Posts: 333
    Dewey: Are you aware of the recall of 14,000 transmissions and fuel pumps on the early (first six months production) on the 2004 LS? They changed mine out, filled the tank with gas plus Lexus sent me a $200 Chevron Gas gift certificate for any inconvenience they may have caused me. Doubt if CG picked up on this or if affected the LS430 rating.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    So, which brand is it again that has "the least power of any car in the class"?

    My bad... 2nd least. ;)

    Of course, that's not counting the S500 (which is more expensive, but still in the class), but Lexus doesn't offer any other engine option. Regardless of MB engine choice... BMW, Jag, Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti, VW... Lexus finds itself at the bottom.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually you're forgetting the S350. Mercedes has a $65K S with just 241hp and 248ft.lbs of torque.

    If the Lexus 4.3L is so weak and pathetic, why arent the German cars any faster? The LS weighs 3990lbs. The BMW weighs 4500lbs, the A8 is 4400lbs. Lexus doesnt need any more power, they just need to keep the weight down compared to the porky BMW and Audi. As for the VW, it weighs 1200lbs more than the Lexus. An LS430 would have no trouble running away from a Phaeton at a stoplight, regardless of how much more power the W-8 has.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc

    I have hear no one speak of Lexus domination of the world market...YET Just domination of the US market...
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    BDR:

    Fact is my LS 0-60 is quite a bit faster 0-60 (5.9 sec.) then all but a very few well Over $100,000 S-Class sedans (6.3 sec) ...That is even though is has about 45 less horses...runs cleaner and gets better milage and is more reliable..

    I don't know the BMWs 0-60 times you might find it interesting to look it up and let us know...with a 100 more horses it surely is faster then the LS...Isn't it?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Rgsw: Thanks!

    So Michael, I guess your statement below is incorrect!

    THE LS...DOES NOT HAVE TRANSMISSION ISSUES...as I have pointed out. Has not had transmission going back to 97 which is as far back as my consumer reports goes and I don't want to dig out the older issues

    Hmmm, and up to now I have not heard about any transmission issues with Audis, BMWs and MBs? So I guess the Germans are closer in their "Relentless Pursuit to Perfection? :P
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Why should I be surprised when a German carfan just arrogantly assumes that German cars perform best, without bothering to check the facts?

    I don't recall anyone here saying that a S430 was a better performing car than the LS430. You've mentioned this before and yet I don't ever remember that claim being made for the S430 vs. the LS430.

    Germancar fans not checking the facts doesn't happen nearly as much as the over-the-top theories and bogus claims put forth here by Lexus fans.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    nevertheless, bdr did bash Lexus for supposedly having the weakest car in the class, which is totally untrue. The S350 and S430 are the weakest cars in the class.

    The fact is, the LS430 is one of the fastest cars in the class. Horsepower, without taking any other factors into account, is just a number. As I pointed out before, most of the German cars weigh hundreds of pounds more than the LS. In the case of the Phaeton, over 1,000lbs. That doesnt help acceleration.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't recall anyone here saying that a S430 was a better performing car than the LS430.

    Not you merc1, but "anyone" did indeed:
    link title

    ...not naming specific models but saying "Lexus has the least power of any car in the class"...the class does include the LS430 and S430, yes?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I guess I read that wrong. I initially took that remark as a knock on the LS430 for having a lot less power than the 750i, with the 750i still managing to get the same fuel economy (per him) as the much less powerful LS430? :confuse:

    Though I don't see where he stated the LS430 was a poor or the poorest performer, only that it had the least hp in the class, which you and LG are correct that isn't the case.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Actually, horsepower in this class means nothing. Torque and weight tells the story.

    The new Mercedes S is stellar in the handling department according to one writer in Car magazine. It also said the S cabin is quieter than the current LS.

    I look forward to seeing what the new LS brings to the table, because if it doesn’t waft in the manner that the new S seems not to, I will definitely consider it. The S styling both in and out renders it unbuyable to me…

    Things that waft:
    Balloons
    Feathers
    Aroma
    Smoke
    Clouds

    If a car is said to “waft”, usage of the word is metaphorical. To me it has a negative connotation because as a driver I like the sport characteristics. But as a passenger, cloud-like comfort is a positive. I can’t stand driving big luxury cars but love riding in them.

    Lexusguy and Oac… I read R&T’s Z06/Viper comparo. By comparison, they make the Vette look like a Porsche. I just got C&D and will read it later. To me, the Vette has always been just an all-around unsophisticated and callow car when compared to a Porsche. If I bought one it would just be for a one-time experience, you know, to scratch an old childhood itch.

    This talk about forum participation is meaningless. The Porsche threads around here have very little activity, and it is often from transients. The active threads are attended by yentas like us. Merc is the king MB yenta, Lexus has a committee of yentas, Ljflx, Oac, Mattox, Syswei et al. I am a jack-of-all-trades yenta.

    If all of us ever assembled in one room, we would put any women’s club to shame, no doubt. Our mouths would be going a mile a minute and we would get absolutely nothing accomplished. Do you remember that tune from Music Man...

    Pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little,
    Cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot pick a little more…

    Well, that’s us…

    Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. This yenta has to shut up and get back to work… see if I can actually accomplish something…

    cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot pick a little more…

    ;-)

    ________

    * Circular Talk Society
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    This talk about forum participation is meaningless. The Porsche threads around here have very little activity, and it is often from transients. The active threads are attended by yentas like us. Merc is the king MB yenta, Lexus has a committee of yentas, Ljflx, Oac, Mattox, Syswei et al. I am a jack-of-all-trades yenta.

    Too funny! :D

    M
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    Michael is indeed correct. That recall was a one off thing, as the first batch of the 6 speeds had a production fault. Trying looking anywhere on the web to find anyone complaining about a Lexus drivetrain.

    I'd prefer a one off recall to the myraid of electrical problems that German cars have these days. Try a failing Airmatic suspension or cars with a complicated iDrive system that doesn't work properly. If anything Jaguar is the most reliable European marque. (At least according to last year's Long term surveys)

    If you are trying to debate on the reliability issue, you will lose. Lexus has dominated the reliability segment since 1990.

    This whole styling argument is pointless. The MB/BMW clan only started on this styling theme only recently. Starting in with 2000 S Class we started to see cars that really stood out. However, I think MB has always had their SL cars make a "statement." BMW for better or for worse embraced this "Bangle" theme only in the past few years.

    SV
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    ...Lexus fans perhaps finally considered anything except reliability for a few posts! (Except michael_mattox, who threw in reliability at the end of his post...)

    :P
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I will try to abide by the BDR127 Rule: Posts about reliability should not exceed 50% of all posts!

    So I will keep this post real short and agreeable.

    I am not arguing about who is more reliable. That issue has been covered these past few weeks to the point of ad nauseum.

    BUT last week some forum members stated that various German marques have tranny issues and Lexus does not! Such statements are false!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Merc is the king MB yenta"

    Gotta love ya Designman. Classic quote, possibky the best in Edmunds history.

    BTW - we now charge a membership fee to be in the Lexus yenta club. OAC can give you further details. But if you become a true Lexican we waive the fee.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    ROFL!! Great post. :D
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Dewey:

    That is correct no transmission issues...Why...Because as soon as Lexus discovered there MAY be an issue they spend the 10s of Millions of dollars necessary to yank them and put in new one's (OWNERS OF COURSE GOT LEXUS LOANERS ....while filling up the owners car and then sending him a $200 dollar gas voucher for his inconvience.... THAT KIND OF SERVICE IS WHAT MAKES LEXUS ...LEXUS.

    Note also: we were discussion reports by Consumer Reports and no transmission are noted there...
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    BDR:

    I had to throw in the Reliability issue because it is so important to the Luxury car experience....A very pretty car is nice also..but beauty is only skin deep.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Actually, horsepower in this class means nothing. Torque and weight tells the story.

    Wrong. All three tells the story.

    To me, the Vette has always been just an all-around unsophisticated and callow car when compared to a Porsche. If I bought one it would just be for a one-time experience, you know, to scratch an old childhood itch.

    The C&D comparo with the Viper gave the nod to the Z06, but I remained unconvinced. The Vette at $65K is cheap for a reason. Beware of cheap things... they are often not good, just like good things are not often cheap...

    Lexus has a committee of yentas, Ljflx, Oac, Mattox, Syswei et al. I am a jack-of-all-trades yenta.

    Yenta, n, somebody, often a woman, known as a meddler or a gossip; one that meddles; blabbermouth

    Geez, designman... that was rough !!! meddler, gossip, or blabbermouth...I thought we were friends, no ? ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    C&D did give the overall nod to the Vette, mostly because of how much engine it has for how little it costs. If you read between the lines a bit though, its easy to tell that everybody liked actually driving the Viper a lot more. If C&D drivers are scared to death of spinning a car backwards because its suspension and steering transmit nothing to the driver as to where the cars limits are and how close you are to reaching\surpassing them, thats not a car I want to drive fast, or even at all.

    They also mentioned in the same issue that the Solstice and Miata were more "fun" around a track than Chevy and Dodge's 500hp monsters.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. grabbed more U.S. retail market share than Ford Motor Co. in early November and it was less than one share point behind General Motors Corp.

    link title
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Not really a surprise, as they have already taken the #2 world spot from Ford. What is interesting in the story is the role reversal between Honda and Nissan. Not too long ago Honda was hurting a bit while Nissan continued to report healthy gains. While Honda's focus on its core products seems to have paid off, it seems like Nissan put a little too much effort into challenging Detroit for full-size pickups and SUVs. Not a good place to have all of your attention focused right now. The Sentra is long overdue for replacement, the Altima is aging quickly, and while the Maxima is new.. I'm not sure how much of a sales success it has been.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The real sad story is GM. It will be a sad day when the general loses its lofty perch to Toyota who had originally predicted they'll be numero uno by 2010, but looks to be sooner. But more importantly, the prospect of a GM bankruptcy is the scariest of all. I am no GM fan, but I fear for the fallout to an auto industry that is already struggling, and the impact on employees and families that will be affected. Sad indeed...
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Oac… Ah-ha, you got a little feisty with me! No matter. I guess you took umbrage to my yenta comments. It was banter, nothing more. Of course we’re friends.

    Now, enough joking. This is a very serious place so let’s get down to serious business. Of course we are not blabbermouths. I am quite sure that one of these days, one of us is going to win the Nobel Prize for Edmunds forum posting.

    Regarding your comment about torque and horsepower. A 900 hp F1 engine in a HELM would do nothing for the car in a real-world driving environment. As a matter of fact, the LS430 would blow its doors in under ~120 mph. Thus, what good is horsepower? You can have lots of horsepower without lots of torque but this does NOT work for heavy luxury cars. It only works for sports cars and race cars that dwell at high RPM and high speed.

    I would rather have a lux car with 320 hp and 320 lb-ft of torque than one with 350 hp and 250 lb-ft of torque any day of the week; so would you, and so would most other people even though some of them don’t know the difference. And it’s a BIG difference. This is why you will never see a luxury car with considerable torque/hp disparity. You will only this disparity in smaller lighter cars, especially sports cars.

    Also, your darling LS is living proof of how much more important torque is over horsepower with its 312 lb-ft and 278 hp. Reverse these numbers and you probably lop off a second from its 0-60 acceleration. Recall the discussion we had some time back about 8 cyl vs 6 cyl engines and how most people said a HELM needs a V8. Well, my point about torque is at the foundation of that discussion.

    Lastly, compare the LS with the RL which are nearly the same weight (LS-3990 lbs, RL-4012 lbs). The RL has 290 hp which is more than the LS’s 278 hp. But the RL has only 256 lb-ft of torque and needs a whopping 5000 rpm to get it. The LS has 312 lb-ft at 3400 RPM. The difference in acceleration is approximately 1 second in favor of the LS.

    Bottom line:
    Where heavy luxury cars are concerned, torque rules, horsepower doesn’t mean squat.

    Lexusguy…

    OK, I read C&D’s comparo today. It’s quite a contrast to R&T who say this among other positive things about the Z06:

    “Where the Corvette is a much more forgiving car, you need to be on your toes when pushing the Dodge [Viper].”

    Even so, R&T does acknowledge the Vette’s tendency to come loose. Anyway, I see your point about reading between the lines which is always good when absorbing any review. Both cars command respect, sensibility and driving skill when pushed. A brazen idiot could go to his grave very quickly with either. But for mere mortals, the Vette’s stability control vs, none with the Viper makes a world of difference in taming the beasts. However, I sense from all of the reviews that Corvette has elevated itself from previous years, and at those prices the C6 and Z06 are definitely worthy of consideration. Styling is another story. I am so-o sick of looking at that brickhouse butt.

    Back to Oac…

    Beware of cheap things... they are often not good, just like good things are not often cheap...

    Are you referring to your cheap Matrix and my cheap Subaru? Nah, surely you know these cheap cars serve a purpose. Levi’s jeans are cheap too. I don’t know about you but I couldn’t live without them. Quite often cheap is good. Look at Bill Gates, he drives a cheap Lexus, so do all of you Lexicans. Ljflx can afford a Bentley but what does he drive… a cheap Lexus. Our beloved Merc drives a cheap Eclipse. Fact is, all of us have darn good reasons to go cheap. It’s known as bang for the buck and quite often it is the most prudent course of action even if we can afford to do otherwise.

    Now, be nice and realize that your Uncle Designman loves you and everyone else around here.

    ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Forgive me for being about 500 messages behind, but I have had 3 BMW's since 1993 with no problems and the latest, the 545 with the comfort seats, is awesome.

    Tried the Lexus LS430 but didn't care for the driver's seat-I couldn't get comfortable.

    However, If the LS430 was priced more competitively as a lease and Lexus threw in free maintenance, I may have made a deal on one. (Being 6'2", seating comfort is usually a problem).

    As it is, I got my 545 lease at 2.4% interest and am paying only $673 a month ($60,000 vehicle). With the free maintenance thrown in, the decision was a no-brainer.
    The car has had no problems since I got it August 1st.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That is either a heavily discounted car or a heavily subsidized lease. It seems the German leases are being more and more discounted. I've seen $78K S430 leases that are $50 less a month than a $65K LS430 as long as 12 months ago. The MSRP's are getting lost in these lease programs. Someone's going to get killed on that lease because the car will have to retain 2/3rds of MSRP just to break even.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    It was a heavily subsidized lease in order to clear out the remaining 545's and make way for the incoming 550's, the latter for those who want to improve their 0-60 time by a couple of 0.1's.

    I may try and get out of that lease early if the 2007 LS looks as good as some of those questionable photos I've been viewing, and has a bit of improvement in the handling dept. I am looking forward to the reviews.

    One of my neighbors had one of the early LS400's until last week-kept it absolutely immaculate-just got a 2006 LS430. I wonder why he didn't wait a year for the new model? I really have to start talking to my neighbors...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    For .1 or .2 of a second - I'll take your deal.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    There are many reasons for buying that 06 LS430 rather than wait for the 07 -

    1) You could wait forever for the 07 to debut - or if it's on time even, demand will likely be so high, you'll get no discounts, perhaps even encounter premiums to buy one.

    2) You may not like the 07 that well - Hard to tell right now. Looks nice, but what if it has an I-Drive that you hate? Lots of questions at this point.

    3) Probably can get a killer deal on the 06 - but there's no question, you're not going to get a killer deal on the 07 for at least 6 months after introduction, if then.

    4) May have needed a car NOW!
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    With respect to reason 2) let me point out the following; I have a new RX400h and a colleague has new Audi A8. I took him out for a drive and he marveled at the touch screen in my Lexus. The Audi has something like the I-drive which he has learned to handle but he definitely preferred the touch screen. I assume that Lexus will keep their touch screen.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "I assume that Lexus will keep their touch screen."

    Why would you assume that? Simply because it makes sense? I would tend to agree with you - if they weren't putting in an I-Drive simulant already. Bodes poorly, IMO for the future. Nobody likes it - but they keep using them in Germany. I'm actually disappointed to see Lexus going that way.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    " if they weren't putting in an I-Drive simulant already."

    Where did you hear that? I havent heard anything about some sort of joystick control system in the new LS. I was very surprised to see Acura go that route with the RL, but it would be even more of a shock to see on in the LS.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I figured out that to lease a 550 for 3 years, it would have cost me between $7000-$7500 more than the 545.
    You know with the comfort seats and the upgraded surround-sound audio system, I do believe the 545 can fit into this discussion.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes and also, it really isn't too smart to buy the first year of any new model, even Lexus.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    From everything I know - Lexus is bypassing an i-drive like interface.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That one I'll disagree with. I had the 95, and the 2001 which were two big model changes. Never had a problem and don't know anyone who did. 2001 probably posed the biggest risk - not because the car was new, but because Lexus had to increase capacity as the demand was about 40% higher than they expected.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Anyhow, talk of the 2007 LS piqued my curiosity so all weekend long (except for 3 hours of watching the Bucs beat the Falcons in a real thriller), I went through about 700 posts on the 2007 LS and High End threads; the latter, for some reason, I fell way behind in.

    I read something maybe 100 posts ago about the 2006 GS vs the 5 series.
    A Lexus big-wig definitely stated that the newly revamped GS was aimed squarely at BMW and that it was intended to be a "5 series killer."
    So the anticipation was great. Big let-down. If this was Lexus' idea of a 5 killer, they have a lot of work to do.
    Even the Lexus apologist CR downgraded the new GS for less than inspiring handling.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    I hope that you're right. My colleague, mentioned in the earlier post, is German (born in Germany and still a German citizen although now working in the USA). He bought a new Audi A8 because he wants awd and believes Audi is best in awd. He freely admitted the Lexus touch screen is superior and also loved the rear view camera. the quietness and the flat cornering of the Lexus hybrid because of its low center of gravity.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I thought you might.
    I guess if anyone would be capable of proving my maxim wrong, it would have to be Lexus.
    We'll see.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I believe Popular Mechanics used to have a Torque-to-weight metric for an estimate of real world straight-line performance. Made quite an impression on me.

    It will be interesting to see how hybrid systems change the equation.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Gearing is a big factor here. It is the converter from engine torque to tongue at the actual contact patch. Of course, luxury sedan drivers don't like to manually change gears as much as sportscar drivers! Hence stuff like 7 ratio autos.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The only Lexus I know of that had initial year problems is the GX470, and those stemmed from the specific factory in NA where they are built. I've got a '01 LS430, and its been absolutely perfect. I plan to buy the '07 car, and I'm not worried about initial year issues. Leave that to the Germans.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    It will be interesting to see how hybrid systems change the equation.

    It changes it bigtime because electric motors provide maximum torque at less than 1 RPM and the torque remains constant at all RPM. Currently with lone gas engines, you can get a real good idea of performance without even driving a car by reading engine and drivetrain specs (gearing), particularly the torque/horsepower curves. It all changes with the hybrid combination. I think to get a good idea of hybrid performance, they will have to reveal wheel torque as alluded to by Pablo. In any event, cars’ acceleration rates are always the bottom-line indicator. But it’s always nice to know how that is coming to fruition—it is not so easy to assimilate with hybrids.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Ljflx can afford a Bentley but what does he drive… a cheap Lexus"

    Maybe when I sell my business but for now I'd much prefer to spend excess money on product enhancements and new products that are strategic. The car I always lusted after was the SL though - as a toy car. I hope MB gets its act together though because they are making that car impossible to desire with their reliability issues. My cousin got rid of hers because she had constant problems and told me I'd be nuts to want one. True luxury to me is something that delivers what a luxury buyer wants and builds it with high quality and high reliability.

    But your point illustrates something I've been saying for a long time. That being that earned money spends that money more prudently than unearned money. A bigger hosue or something that sets someone apart by providing a real convcenience or luxury standard will do the trick. A car - unless you are talking a Ferrari (maybe) doesn't do it. For example - there's not that much of a difference between a Bentley or Rolls and an S-class, 7 or LS430 as far as I'm concerned. They all do the job very well of providing luxury and convenience in the manner that a buyer is seeking. But there is a huge difference between flying privately and flying commercially, including first class. So the earned money will go that route most of the time before it even entertains a Bentley etc. Likewise earned money will buy second and third homes and then things for their children before they entertain thoughts of exotic cars that quickly lose value. I will always maintain that most (not all) exotic car buyers are inheritors of money or CEO's whose board of Directors are looking the other way and not doing their jobs right. It is interesting that real high end sales have ceased growing since Sarbanes-Oxley got passed.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Are there even specific SAE rules for calculating horsepower and torque ratings for hybrids? It seems that the way Toyota rates HSD cars is different than the way Honda rates IMA cars, etc.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Need to contact you. Can you respond to ? Thx
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    "The only Lexus I know of that had initial year problems is the GX470, and those stemmed from the specific factory in NA where they are built."

    The GX 470 is not built in North America, but rather the Tahara plant in Japan. That plant is one of the best in the world in terms of the quality of vehicles produced.

    The RX 330 was the first, and is the only, Lexus to be built in North America (Canada).
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I've got a '01 LS430, and its been absolutely perfect. I plan to buy the '07 car, and I'm not worried about initial year issues. Leave that to the Germans.

    LOL!
    I've got a 99 BMW 323, and its been absolutely perfect. I plan to buy either a new BMW 330i or the next generation BMW 5 Series, and I'm not worried about initial year issues. Leave that to Lexus and their GX470 :D

    It has been 7 years since I owned my BMW and I still have not developed a 7 year itch in which I look at younger and sexier cars with a roving eye! My car has been just as reliable and faithful to me as my dog named Rasty!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC - can you put up an e-mail address on your profile for me to contact you.
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