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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Silly me.... here is my email address:
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC - still missing.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There's probably a security measure in place that prevents people from giving out their email address, which would invite spam. Maybe email the moderator and ask him what to do?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Just edit your profile to include your e-mail address and after he gets it re-edit your profile to eliminate it.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Funny and weird !!! I did provide it 2X already, and somehow it disappeared each time. Must be a s/w thing... I tried editing my profile to turn my e-mail address to public, yet each time I saved the *new* setting, it remained *private* and hidden... Seems the s/w for editing profiles ain't working for me.

    This is in Pat_Host's territory now... So Pat, any help on this ?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You might have to log out and back in - in which case, it may be fixed by the time you see this.

    Or you could put it in the bio section. I think that will show up immediately.

    If you can't get it to work, you need to go to the Contact Us tab at the Help link on the left side of the page and report it.

    No, we don't have anything in place to keep people from posting their email addresses, but no one, not anyone, wants to do that. If you provide it through your profile, the spambots and other address harvesters can't get it. In your profile, only registered, logged-in users can see it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Are there even specific SAE rules for calculating horsepower and torque ratings for hybrids?

    I don’t know the total answer to this but it seems the individual gas engine and electric motor withtin a hybrid system are SAE rated. This doesn’t tell us much because the net power applied concomitantly is what matters. I would like to know how this is calculated but obviously the transmission and electronic input have a lot to do with it. I suppose you are asking if the entire hybrid systems are SAE rated? Good question.

    It seems that the way Toyota rates HSD cars is different than the way Honda rates IMA cars, etc.

    Yes, some kind of standardization is needed. It is very difficult to compare hybrid system specs at this point. I think the only thing we have to go by is acceleration rates. You can’t get a feel for torque and horsepower by reading manufacturer specs for hybrids. It is a new and convoluted environment we have here.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Ljflx, I see your point about earned vs unearned money but when it gets down to personal finances, I believe there are basically three kinds of people:

    1 - Those who like to spend (generally risk takers and those who live for today)
    2 - Those who don’t like to spend (the security-conscious and frugal)
    3 - Everyone in between

    There are people who are loaded but will never buy an expensive car. Conversely, there are those who are not so financially endowed but will see to it that they get the car of their dreams.

    We all know that cars are not an investment, rather an expense. With cars, I think it come down to one’s personal level of enjoyment and lifestyle. Those who truly enjoy them rather than treat them like public utilities will spend, regardless of how they obtained their money.

    “It’s in my nature to spend. My only problem is... I never have anything to spend.”

    -Ralph
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    My new 545, "the car of the future" regrettably cannot:

    1. set its clock automatically for DST/ST
    2. core a apple
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    My LS has yet to come up with a cure for cancer. I'm very disappointed about that, as its clearly just laziness.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thanks, Pat

    All it needed was as you suggested - logout-and-login
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    OAC - can you put up an e-mail address on your profile for me to contact you.

    Fixed. Check out my profile...Thx
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    But your point illustrates something I've been saying for a long time. That being that earned money spends that money more prudently than unearned money...

    My wife is a CPA, and one of her firm's client drives around in a $250K Lamboghini. Well she knew the cost of the car cos the client had it in his tax return. One day this client stopped by her office to chat, and my wife asked him why he drives such a high cost-fast depreciating car ? His response: "I am an equity investment advisor, if my customers see me successful (as my car shows) they'll feel more secure entrusting their money in my care".

    Sometimes, we are what we drive. Our choice of automobile may tell something about who we are, and our belief system. Success can (often) be correlated to owning a HELM. But clearly there are far too many people stretching themselves to show they too are *successful* or *cool* or *rich* or *wealthy* or *frugal*, or *prudent*, or ...

    My LS was a birthday gift. Figured I deserve a lil' pampering for all the hard work I have put into my work. And why not ? If I can afford a Bentley, and already own a huge fabulous home, my kids college savings are there, my nest egg/retirement is rock solid, and the Bentley would not put a huge hole in my pocket otherwise, then I'd buy it in a NY-minute. I believe in the "here-and-now". Enjoy what you have NOW and don't be a slave to $, or don't let your money *own* you. Life's too short....
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What a lovely discourse: Net worth levels, self-made wealth, heirs, inheritence implications, frugality versus conspicious consumption and last but not least personal levels of enjoyment and lifestyle.

    It would be even lovelier if this forum could include High end luxury marque vehicles in this discussion too!

    But since we are more focused on the owners of their cars why dont we begin a disussion on how different education levels affect vehicle choices :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Perhaps our complaints will get back to the Lexus and BMW big-wigs.

    I have a feeling that the LS will be equipped with a cancer cure (probably as part of a new ultra-luxury package) a great deal sooner than BMW will be able to offer a clock which automatically adjusts for DST/ST. :sick:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That's an interesting question:

    There are some pimps on Broadway and 7th Avenue in NYC who haven't graduated from middle school and can barely read, but have pretty good business skills, who happen to be driving LS's, 911's, 7 series BMW's, RR's, Bentleys and S series MB's.
    I've seen 'em.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The "rim" industry pretty much depends on that demographic entirely.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Sometimes a person who enjoyes cars, sets aside ten thousand dollars a year and get what ever (in reason) catches their fancy every four years or so...for me this comes way after all the children have grown and are well into their own lives--and it is nice when the company picks up the tab to a degree...Tony ps It`s really nice if the car retains a nice part of it`s value like Lexus does
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Or as BMW does!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Uh oh. The Lexicans must be scrambling to assemble an emergency strategy meeting. The big L is nowhere to be seen in those links. Dewey, maybe we can save the Alamo after all.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Uh oh. The Lexicans must be scrambling to assemble an emergency strategy meeting. The big L is nowhere to be seen in those links. Dewey, maybe we can save the Alamo after all.

    No "emergency strategy meeting" necessary for the Lexicans.

    Let me predict it.... Everyone just start shouting "RELIABILITY!!!!!" :P
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    According to the link posted by bdr127 on the KBB resale award winners - Mini/BMW (tie), here is the not-so-small print:

    The awards are presented to the vehicle with the highest projected resale value in each of Kelley Blue Book's nine vehicle categories. In addition, awards are presented to the Overall Top 10 leaders in projected resale value, and, finally, Kelley Blue Book also honors the brand with the best projected resale value across its line of vehicles. Low-volume vehicles and vehicles with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price of more than $60,000 were excluded from awards consideration.

    Projections and Reality are not always the same !!! How 'bout real-life situations instead of a pie-in-the-sky, wet your pinkie and stick it in the wind consideration ?? Now, why should Lexicans head to an emergency meeting on this superflous award ?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Those cryptic email invitations are nothing more than a decoy!

    I strongly believe the L will soon do a stealth attack without notice !
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    !!! How 'bout real-life situations instead of a pie-in-the-sky, wet your pinkie and stick it in the wind consideration ??

    Projections are based on up to date reality not on pie-in-the-sky, wet your pinkie and stick it in the wind consideration !

    The high resale values reflects the passion/admiration people feel towards the BMW brand. There is nothing scientific about that admiration/passion except that it translates into the highest resale values in the industry! Wet pinkies and wind considerations will not change that fact.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “Low-volume vehicles and vehicles with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price of more than $60,000 were excluded from awards consideration."

    The LS starts at $57,220. Is that excluded? In addition everything else except the LX and SC are well below $60K. The GS is going nowhere and the IS has to prove itself. And the IS with its high price and small back seat is going to be a tough sell IMO. BMW is strong and I believe their 4-year free maintenance is a big part of the reason, not to mention the qualities that make them the ultimate driving machines.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for those references.
    Re-enforces what we already know, doesn't it?
    When you talk about high residual value, BMW cars are second to none!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Good one! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I wonder if you would be combing through the "not-so-small print" if the outcome was a little different, uh, maybe in favor of the Lexicans?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    BMW is strong and I believe their 4-year free maintenance is a big part of the reason, not to mention it's the ultimate driving machine.

    That 4-yr *free* maint is built-in, isn't it ? The ultimate driving machine remains a marketing jargon, albeit a good one since many people actually believe it and live it.

    Let's see: Since we are quoting KBB, how 'bout this actual KBB real-world test. We sample two cars, a BMW and a Lexus, in same market space, say the GS300 v 528i. Pick a year, say 2000 MY. Same mileage, about 50K miles. Similar level of features. Which car would you expect to re-sell higher at dealer trade-in value ?

    Let's see what KBB says about such a scenario:
    2000 528i, Good condition: link title

    2000 GS300, Good condition: link title

    Hmmmmmm !!!! Which one is higher priced as a used car ???? Note, this is KBB trade-in value.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    BMW may be the Ultimate Driving Machine in its particular price category.
    None of them can compete with Porsche's best.

    And frustratingly, no BMW or Porsche, for that matter can core a apple.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    !Let's see what KBB says about such a scenario:
    2000 528i, Good condition: link title

    2000 GS300, Good condition: link title

    Hmmmmmm !!!! Which one is higher priced as a used car ???? Note, this is KBB trade-in value.


    Among several model years you are selectively choosing among various models just one instance where a Lexus beats a BMW in terms of resalue values.

    Seems a bit desperate!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Doesn't anyone realize that the future resales cited are based on the lease residuals offered? Subsidize the lease and you get rewarded. Don't subsidize the lease and you get penalized. This stuff can almost be considered marketing costs. I'll say it again - in 2001 the S500 was supposed to retain 68% of its MSRP based on my lease after 3 years and 36K miles. It probably won the award that year for future resale value. Unfortunately 3 years later it retained under 50% and finished in the cellar in the real world of retention values. No need for any Lexicans to scramble. Just check Edmunds real TMV's of used cars rather than the fantasy future values cited. Lexus and BMW are the leaders (interchangably on different models) and Audi and MB are the cellar dwellers.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I wonder if you would be combing through the "not-so-small print" if the outcome was a little different, uh, maybe in favor of the Lexicans?

    When people throw out links purportedly supporting a theory of theirs, it behoves the reader to actually read what is being linked and understand what it means. So I did what anyone should do - read the document linked. I bet those who threw the links at us may not have read the entire document...
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Even though I am admittedly a BMW fanatic, I do hope the 2007 LS doesn't let me down the way the 2006 GS did after being touted as a "BMW 5 series killer" and was nothing of the sort.

    If you can believe some of those photos going around, the new LS will be improved quite significantly in the looks dept.
    Now if only Lexus will make a serious attempt to put a bit of fun in the handling dept.
    If they do, I will be taking a serious look and test drive.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Among several model years you are selectively choosing among various models just one instance where a Lexus beats a BMW in terms of resalue values.

    Seems a bit desperate!


    I just picked an example. Rather than casting aspersions on people, why not do your own research, pick any other model year & car combo of your choice and see what you get, eh ? BTW, read Len's post #11420... seems to nail it.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Judging from the BMW and Lexus leasing figures, BMW with its high residuals and competitive money factors and relatively poor long-term reliability encourages one to lease and Lexus with its ridiculously low residuals (totally out of touch with reality), rather high money factors (except in December, yes I remember!) and incomparable long term reliability encourages one to buy.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Judging from the BMW and Lexus leasing figures, BMW with its high residuals and competitive money factors and relatively poor long-term reliability encourages one to lease and Lexus with its ridiculously low residuals (totally out of touch with reality), rather high money factors (except in December, yes I remember!) and incomparable long term reliability encourages one to buy.

    Ahhhhh !!! This is why you gotta understand what is being peddled in these *awards*. Projections and reality are NOT always the same. You should ask those who told us we'll be greeted with flowers in Baghdad...;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Can anyone prove that the subsidies of a average Lexus lease are less than a BMW lease?

    And if nobody can prove the above point then nobody can claim that the residuals of BMWs are highest as a result of far more generous lease subsidies!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    According to the linked ALG awards:

    BMW of North America, LLC has once again made a strong showing by winning the Luxury Brand Residual Value Award for the second consecutive year.

    Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc. continued a strong tradition in the Residual Value Awards winning four individual segment awards...

    Mercedes-Benz USA LLC is the winner of this year's Sports Car Segment for the SLK and the CLK has won the Luxury Segment award for the fourth time.

    Infiniti, a division of Nissan North America Inc., takes home the Near Luxury Car Segment award for the G35.


    Notice the use of *residuals* for BMW and Toyota brands, but *segment* award for others. Notice that there was no single BMW car winning in any segment. How were these awards determined, and over how many years ??? Seems kinda confusing to me what this ALG awards mean, really.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Seems kinda confusing to me what this ALG awards mean, really.

    The residuals reflects the overall average of BMW models and it is that average that is highest when compared to other marques.

    To find the segment information you will have to access that from ALG itself. The extra detail of segment information will not disprove the overall averages.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Lexus is coming around on this - slowly. Toyota is very conservative here. But the GX residuals are much higher than the projections they made in leases a few years ago in the first 15 months of introduction. So they have elevated that residual substantially - which is why it made the list - I guess. Hey - any bean counter would love the Toyota methodology. Any lessee has to make sure they get the best discount in the Lexus way of doing things. Winner in a situation like that is always the dealer which has to be part of the reason why Lexus dealers are the most profitable in the land. In the end the whole thing is a game. Discount the car upfront rather than residualize it high in a few years or keep the MSRP up there and increase the residuals to unlikely retained values. The latter is a cash flow game. Pricing has so many variables that you lose track of them after a while. But in the end it really comes down to two things - what did you pay and how much can you sell it for 3-5 years later. Everything else is window dressing.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "The residuals reflects the overall average of BMW models"

    Not in any way shape or form is this true and you can substitute whatever brand or car you want for BMW in that quote. But that's what you are supposed to think. That way if you are buying rather than leasing a car with a high residual projected you are in a losing proposition as you are taking the risk on the residualized value. Hpowders nailed it with his post. Bottom line - lease a German car and leave the future price risk with the manufacturer. If you are going to hold a car 8-10 years none of this has any relavance as they all end up at the same place by that time.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Not in any way shape or form is this true

    Bottom line - lease a German car and leave the future price risk with the manufacturer

    OK three questions:

    1)So are you saying BMW subsidizes their leases more than Lexus? As I asked in a prior post where is the proof!

    2)Are you saying that Lexus has less future price risks than BMWs? I have never seen any evidence of this and would appreciate it if you can tell me where you learned your facts from!

    3)Are you saying that the high residuals of BMWs reflects their subsidies and not their popularity? Do you honestly believe that?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Can anyone prove that the subsidies of a average Lexus lease are less than a BMW lease?"

    Again see Hpowders post - lower than historic retention values and higher than industry standard money factors are as opposite of subsidizing a lease as you can get. You have to understand the whole approach to leasing is strategically different in the case of Lexus and BMW. It could be that Lexus Finance prefers the lessee to make a deal with his dealer on the car and a local bank on leasing reather than running big lease programs. so they throw a non-competitive deal on the table just to say it's there for convenience. Maybe that's why they only run a handful of progreams a year with the December to remember being the big one. My LS is leased from Chase because they had a lower money factor and a 5% higher residual. You could argue that Chase has more confidence in Lexus future prices than Lexus does.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I've shopped both Lexus and BMW leases.
    More than a few.
    The BMW leases are always the better deal.
    Yes. BMW subsidizes its leases and Lexus doesn't except in its "December To Remember" promotion.
    Lexus keeps the residual artificially low and because of that, the payments are high.
    Many people who lease Lexus vehicles go through Chase.
    In one case I know someone who was told point blank by his Lexus salesperson, to do a lease through Chase!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The BMW leases are always the better deal.

    I cant argue that BMW provides better lease deals than Lexus.

    BUT those better deals may not only reflect subsidies but also higher anticipated resale values.

    Lease deals are not only about subsidies but also about anticipated supply and demand of resales.

    The fact that Lexus lease deals are not that good may be the result of lower anticipated Lexus resale values than BMW resale values!

    Ljflx,

    I know what you are thinking! Citicorp is proof that there is more confidence about Lexus resale values than what Lexus projects itself! Therefore Lexus residuals are lowballed and do not reflect reality.

    BUT Citicorp may have more confidence about BMW resales than BMW itself! Citicorp may be more agressive than Lexus or BMW!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Retention values are based on percent of original prices paid retained not on absolute dollars retained. I've put up plenty of posts in the past that has shown the LS is the run away winner in this segment and that's based on MSRP. Given the LS is more easily discounted up front, as Lexus gives dealers a wide Invoice to MSRP range, the retention percentage is even greater than I had posted as I used MSRP. As for popularity - Lexus is the number 1 US luxury brand and resales are high because it's quite popular after 3 years - and that is because it's reliability is deeply trusted.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "I know what you are thinking! Citicorp is proof that there is more confidence about Lexus resale values than what Lexus projects itself! Therefore Lexus residuals are lowballed and do not reflect reality.

    BUT Citicorp may have more confidence about BMW resales than BMW itself! Citicorp may be more agressive than Lexus or BMW!"

    I can guarantee you a bank will base retention value on past history not on some bubbly enthusiasm of future prices put out there by the manufacturer or future credit scores put out there by you. Can you imagine a bank lending you money based on your future projections of income rather than your prior year tax return, past income history and past credit performance??
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    As a loyal BMW customer, I have to admit, I would never buy one.
    Always leased since 1993.
    If I were to change to the LS which could happen in 2007, I would buy one.
    The car has great long-term reliability (which BMW's don't) and retains its value better than most. I would not be looking to dump it after 3 years.
    This car is as close to an investment as a depreciating asset can be!
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