Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1…228229231233234…463

Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I rest my case Pat!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Based on what??

    The best historic retained value performance!

    Well, then, according ALG itself (your bible, not mine), Lexus has four models (accounting for some 80% of Lexus sales or more) ranked 5-star in terms of historical retained value performance; BMW has no model achieving 5-star status according to ALG!
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    ALG seems a little funky to me as well. For instance, while shopping new suvs for my wife , I looked at pretty much everything in the 35k range. At the time {this was late summer of this year} the Volvo had the highest residual. Now it only takes looking in the paper or carmax to figure out that an MDX retains it's value better than the XC90 {when outfitted evenly, and miles and wear are the same} So while ALG may be the benchmark it is clearly flawed IMO.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    No advocacy of lease vs. buying was inteded (I do both based on specific circumstances). The contentious point seems to be marque value rentention and whether ALG projection has any basis in reality. Banks loosing billions of dollars on lease deals using ALG projections proved that ALG projection is not a reliable source for marque value retention data.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is not a leasing discussion, let's give it a rest.

    Anybody want to talk about High - End - Luxury - Marques in and of themselves??
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Let me suggest that tastes can be fickle and that the financial strength of demographic groups change. It wouldn't surprise me if going forward the BMW demo would not be as strong.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    There are lots of rumors, both in American and British press, of Renault acquiring Jag from Ford. It makes perfect sense to me.

    How's this for an idea: Porsche taking over Jaguar?

    Porsche is developing a sedan platform. How about using that platform on future Jaguars?

    Or how about a new reto Jag E-type with a Carrera platform?

    Jaguar will be in more upscale company with Porsche at the helm than With Nissan/Renault.

    A Jaguar with an Infiniti platform sounds more like an overpriced Inifiniti with British style walnut burlwood interiors!

    IMO a Jag with its classic design/interiors driven by Teutonic engineering sounds far more exciting.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Two cultures 180 degrees apart may not be a match made in Heaven :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think Jaguar is better off with anyone other than Ford right now. Just be thankful GM didn't get their hands on them, witness Saab.

    Porsche would be a great fit for Jaguar I think. Jaguar could get one rwd state-of-the-art platform to base all their cars on. I think it could work, but Porsche has to be careful not to bite off more than they can chew because Jaguar would be financial drain they couldn't absord like Ford has been able to do all these years until now.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Is Porsche even interested in Jag? The great trend in the industry nowadays seems to be festooning a premium brand onto the platform/parts bin of a mass-producer. Porsche is sourcing VW just like Volvo gets Ford parts and Saab gets GM parts; as galling as it sounds, Cayenne actually accounts for more than half of Porsche sales nowadays. Volvo is a great money maker for Ford, and Saab is turning profitable after losing money for over a decade. Not sure why the numbers failed to work out for Jag . . . volume issue? (lack of) Perhaps that's the issue whoever buys Jag will have to work out . . . either that or fold the brand altogether . . . or, who knows, build a Jag SUV/MPV, just kidding ;-) Coming out with "Daimler" as a premium sub-division of Jag must be the most brain-dead idea when most people associate "Daimler" with "Benz," which itself has been moving down market to accommodate Maybach.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No I doubt it. It was just an idea Dewey tossed out there. I don't think Porsche would risk their good health on Jaguar. I agree about Daimler, too confusing for most to understand.

    I personally think Ford took too long with Jaguar and should have just spent the money years ago to give them one premium, non-shared platform for them to base all their cars on. It could be scaled up for the XJ and down for the S-type and chopped for the X-Type and that F-Type roadster they proposed a few years back. For some reason Ford has done the right thing by Volvo, Aston and Land Rover, letting them be for the most part, but with Jaguar they've stumbled for some reason. Jaguar just needs the right investment backing and they'd be fine since they now realise that they can't compete with Germany and Japan on volume.

    I don't see where Mercedes has moved downmarket per say to accomodate Maybach though. They've introduced lower level cars like the A-Class long before Maybach, and the SLR is at the Maybach level. What Mercedes did was operate under the "Benz in every garage" theory of the outgoing boss.

    They just went a whole lot higher in placing Maybach over Mercedes, maybe a little too high since they don't have the name recognition like Rolls or Bentley.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Well, "Benz in every garage" is the very embodiment of brand dilution. A High End Luxury Marque has to have the proper vehicle mix and exclusivity to uphold the marque; it's hard to do when the overwhelming majority vehicles sold are A-class and C class. Maybach pricing was simply the result of bubble-thinking of the late 90's; it was meant to capture the same market segment of the S class of yore (the aristocrats) as S-class was rapidly becoming within easy reach of the third estate merchants in the late 90's, and that probably bugged the heck out of class-conscience world of MB ;-)

    There is merit to your suggestion of having one unique platform upon which Jag can derive several products . . . a process not unlike the FM platform for Infiniti (G35, M35, M45, FX35, FX45, and possibly the next Q). Lexus is doing the same thing with GS and IS (and possibly the next SC); Caddy is doing it with CTS and STS. It may just be the answer when consumers start to get tired of platform sharing with the plebian divisions . . . fundamentally carmaking is a economy of scale business; there has to be platform sharing of one kind or another. The problem is though, stretching and widening a platform is by no means easy. That, and the possibility of being too little too late; the fate of a me-too in a very competitive market segment.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I think we've had this conversation before about Mercedes and what they sell and whether or not they're a high-end brand or not. None of these brands are exclusively high-end in the traditional sense, those would be Rolls, Bentley, etc. Mercedes lowered itself to market demands for a cheaper Benz back in the 80's with the 190E as Jaguar did with the X-Type recently.

    I don't think it is fair to just look at what brand sells the most of and then say they aren't high-end. Mercedes does a lot selling at the higher end too, more than anyone else. To me that makes them more of high-end brand than anyone other brand here, only BMW comes close to meeting the same criteria. So I disagree with the notion of the Maybach trying to recapture any lost market of the S-Class because the Maybach's price is leagues higher than any S-Class ever was.

    I do agree that the A and B-Class could dilude the MB brand to some, but at the same time MB isn't exactly waffling away from their higher-end segments either.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The Brits as a nation should invest in Jaguar as they do with their royalty. When you buy a car like that you should get the country with it. Show me who is at the top of the corporation and I’ll show you the personality of the company. Ford owning Jag and Aston just ruins the enchantment. Poof, they’re virtually gone as far as I’m concerned. It’s almost like growing grapes in Japan and calling the wine French. I think it’s good that a country like Germany has laws limiting foreign ownership.

    I hate to see national cultures ruined by corporate culture. I suppose it is inevitable as capitalism grows strong global roots, but it is important to preserve the cultures of all nations. The English culture in cars has just wasted away. Very sad. I miss those cars where you had to shake the wires under the seat to get them started ;-)

    A French Jaguar. Whoa, that pings around inside the ears. Talk about an oxymoron.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Two cultures 180 degrees apart may not be a match made in Heaven

    Yes I agree and it could end up being hell for both marques. And I agree with Merc1 that Porsche's financial health would be at risk with Jaguar.

    Having said that I think it would be more suitable for Jaguar to be taken over by a high marque niche player like Porsche than a mainstream high volume auto manufacturer.

    Jaguars sharing a platform with a popular mainstream vehicle will cause such new Jags to appear like overpriced versions of that more mainstream car. The Jaguar X type is ridiculed as a overpriced Mondeo.

    Look what happened when Rovers were introduced with the Honda Accord platform. It was a disaster and they were ridiculed as overpriced Honda Accords.

    What Jaguar needs badly now is more exclusivity and the last thing Jaguar needs is to be merely a derivative of a Toyota or a Nissan/Renault.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    A French Jaguar. Whoa, that pings around inside the ears. Talk about an oxymoron.

    Like Napoleon wearing a Union Jack sweatshirt.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is a German Jag less rediculous? That Rolls and Bentley are controlled by BMW and VW is already ironic enough. "What the Germans couldnt do with their bombs, they did with their wallets". I'm not sure how much they would like losing yet another historic British marquee to Germany.

    I really dont see Porsche buying Jag as anything close to reality. Porsche is very profitable yes, but they just are not big enough to deal with trying to run Jag. Who is the best host for Jag? Certainly not Ford, or any US automaker. Fiat and VW would also be very bad choices. BMW could do it, but after being burned with Rover, I doubt they would. I dont think DCX will be buying anybody any time soon. I think Honda has the money to do it, but they've never shown any interest in that kind of thing. So, you're down to Toyota, and Nissan\Renault. Toyota is too busy trying to get Lexus established in Europe to buy an automaker that would compete with them there. No one else is left.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    What Jaguar needs badly now is more exclusivity and the last thing Jaguar needs is to be merely a derivative of a Toyota or a Nissan/Renault.

    Well, almost by consensus, M45 is regarded as more than a match for anything in its class, besides 5 series. Certainly much better than the current S type. Imagine M45 with a British design and suspension.

    I read the GS reviews in Brit CAR and EVO. Although they don't like the car, they both admit it's better built than anything from BMW and MB. Do you want real, or imagined, exclusivity?

    Porsche should under no circumstances acquire Jaguar. Too much of a risk! What if things don't work out? Toyota and Nissan are large to absorb that risk, but not Porsche!

    VW shouldn't jump in either! It has a host of problems, including losing billions in the US each year! Besides it has so many brands, it doesn't know what to do with them.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    190 cost close to $30k in 1986. With 20yrs of inflation, that comes to about $60k in today's dollars. Average new cars back then were about $10k not $20-25k like today. It does show how highly esteemed MB was back then, and by necessity how small a per centage of the vehicle fleet they made up (i.e. exclusivity), that a car costing nearly three times the average new car cost would be considered "low-end" for the marque . . . in today's dollars, it would be like MB introducing a low end C or A class at $70k and everyone going gaga over how cheap the new entry-level MB has suddenly become . . . whereas in our own time line, an A class at $15-20k is quite a few big steps down from a $70k car. Even the Jag X-type is supposed to be a $30-35k car, not exactly econobox price despite its small size.

    S-class used to be a very exclusive car, costing $100k back when a luxury house in a premium neighborhood cost only $200-300k. Remember, a RR was only $100-150k. Today, $100k can hardly buy a studio apartment in many cities. That's why MB introduced the Maybach at $350k, once again roughly 1/3 the price of a luxury house in a premium neighborhood . . . and decontenting S class in terms of the quality of leather, wood and craftsmanship over the decade.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Interesting thought...Corporate culture could be a good thing if the leaders were to be car people..Unfortunately most are profit driven every quarter, and forget that the essence of the corporation is a car. as you pointed out. I am interested to see what happens with the Porsche purchase of v.w stock? Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Well, almost by consensus, M45 is regarded as more than a match for anything in its class, besides 5 series. Certainly much better than the current S type. Imagine M45 with a British design and suspension."

    That would also give Jag access to the VQ 3.5 engine. A large part of the problem with the X-type and S-type is that they are stuck with the pathetic Ford Duratec 3.0L V6. At least GM has their 3.6, Ford has nothing until their 3.5 hits next year. I have always wondered why Jag didnt use Volvo's T6 engine, at least that thing had some power.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I disagree that Jag would be better off with anybody but Ford, merc1, for the simple reason that Ford has pretty much fixed all of Jaguar's issues with their cars. They used to be a tempermental, leaky, poorly made and horribly wired, grumpy, unreliable and old tech.

    Ford gave them the resources to develop new power plants, the aluminum frames and bodies, parts that work on the side, and have made them a completely up to date, yet beautiful car, true to their heritage. Even the radios (X-Type excluded) are uniquely Jag.

    Now - just as their massive investment may be about to pay off, they may have to sell the brand. That would hurt.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "A large part of the problem with the X-type and S-type is that they are stuck with the pathetic Ford Duratec 3.0L V6."

    Well, you're completely wrong regarding this engine and the S-type. They have never been mated. The 3.0L used in the S-type and the Lincoln LS is a Jag engine. And it's a darn good one too.
  • emaussemauss Member Posts: 151
    When I looked at the S series ("R" version), I was very impressed with the initial visual impact...but when I looked a little deeper, I was very disappointed. The "box" below the leather-covered central console top seemed to be made of cardboard. The truck liner was made of the same material. When I tried to examine the spare tire, I was greeted by a think, plastic strap to lift the "floor" of the trunk.

    I referred to this whole episode as seeing a Ford in Jaguar clothing.

    While I agree that Ford has brought reliability to a faltering marque, it has also infused a lot of phluph that I was very sorry to see, and caused me to look to other manufacturers.

    (e)
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Check out this AP article on December auto sales (as of the 11th). Tough times for the auto industy....

    But guess who the only major automaker NOT to see a decline was?

    Slow December Auto Sales
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually yes, it is the Taurus 3.0L.

    "Jaguar says the S-Type 3.0 can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 7.5 seconds. The V6 was smooth and civilized when cruising, and noise from the engine was isolated. Under hard acceleration, however, the sound it made reminded us that it's a Ford Duratec V6."

    http://www.automotive.com/2005/43/jaguar/s-type/reviews/driving-impressions/
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    You're missing the important parts of engineering that are where it counts in that car. I don't own one, so I have no axe to grind here, but did ya drive the thing? If the cardboard console box stopped you from putting it through its paces, you missed something. Not saying you would have bought it anyway, but there's a hellova cat underneath that cardboard box (which nobody will feel when driving the car). Whatever floats your boat.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I have to agree with emauss on this one. Ford caused as much damage as they fixed. The X-type isnt a Jag at all, and the S-type and LS are way too close. The AJV8 may be a Jag engine, but the Ford 3.0L is a very poor substitute for their old inlines. My XJS had one, it was big, strong, and had a wonderful exhaust note. The Taurus engine has none of those qualities.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    If that's true, and I think Automotive.com is incorrect, something has changed since the car's introduction. It was definitely not the Duratech when the cars came out, neither the Lincoln LS nor S-type were using a Ford engine at that time. I doubt it has changed, but maybe it has. I know who to ask though..... I'll get on it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    S-class used to be a very exclusive car, costing $100k back when a luxury house in a premium neighborhood cost only $200-300k.

    Must have been before I started paying attention to Mercedes (like when they first started using an "S" to signify the series) because in the 70's and 80's a S-Class didn't cost nearly that much and even in the 90's, the day of the W140 S500 model it had to be fully dressed to cross 100K. Also, during a lot of the W140 S-Class years the 300SE/S320 made up 40 percent of those sales it was far from a 100K car. A 300SE in the 80's was a 52K car so I'm not buying any of that about how exclusive an S-Class was or is. The only thing exclusive about it was that it did cost more than any other car in the segment, like it does today. Other than that nothing below a S600/S55/S65 is "exclusive" about an S-Class and 52K 300SE from 1989 wasn't "exclusive" either.

    The part about decontenting the S-Class I completely disagree with and I really don't see anything to support that theory. The W220 wasn't decontented because of the pending launch of the Maybach. It was decontented because of all the bad press heaped on the W140 about it being too expensive, too heavy and just plain "over engineered". That and the fact that Mercedes whole business model changed from the time the W140 came out in 1992 to the time the W220 came out in 1999. This had nothing to with Maybach.

    None of these brands has an entry-level car that costs 3 times the price of the average car so I don't see what makes Mercedes any different there. What does make them different at the opposite end is that they have no trouble asking over 100K for many of their cars, and nearly 200K for some of them, again without problem. No other brand that we talk about here can come close to claiming that.

    Only Bentley, Aston-Martin, Rolls and Maybach are on a higher level.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I don't disagree about what they've done with Jaguar so far, but they haven't invested enough in Jaguar to really get them "right" sorta speak. The X-Type should have never, ever happened. The S-Type has been left to langish in a highly competitive field and even the XJ as nice as it is, doesn't really standout against the German iron and it will likely have to go 10 years before being replaced.

    My point about them being better off with someone is that Ford doesn't have the cash to make Jaguar healthy IMO. I've seen the idea of Jaguar competing with Bentley, not gonna work IMO.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "What the Germans couldnt do with their bombs, they did with their wallets".

    You saw that History Channel special too huh! ;)

    I found that to be such an interesting statement. It is astounding how a nation so proud of their "British" marques didn't do much of anything to save any of their brands from either going out of business of falling into foreign hands. All of England is controled by Ford, VW and BMW. Their last standing marque of any size, Rover is part of some Chinese deal I still don't understand. I don't think Germany, America or Japan would ever standby and do nothing like the British basically did if their biggest and proudest brands were being taken over like that.

    I think one of the Germans would make a great owner for Jaguar in theory, but for the reasons you gave non of them can really take on Jaguar right now.

    If Bentley is anything to go by a German-British connection can work wonderfully as far as the market is concerned. Though personally I hate the thought of an fwd-biased AWD Bentley and their styling is awful, but the other Bentley elements are there for sure and the cars are a hit.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It was definitely not the Duratech when the cars came out, neither the Lincoln LS nor S-type were using a Ford engine at that time.

    Well the engine they used started out as a Ford 3L Duratech V6, but of course Jaguar designed their own heads etc., but the block was the same as in a Ford Taurus and it still is today. Put it this way it is a Ford V6 that went to Jaguar finishing school.

    Aston-Martin's mad sounding V12 started out as 2 Ford Duratech V6 with a common crank, but of course once this engine was re-engineered as a V12 in Cologne Germany the Ford heritage is gone in both feel and definitely sound. How could a V12 not sound different, but with Jaguar they're using the same basic engine with some Jaguar specific parts, unlike the Aston V12.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Is it not ironic that the German government would likely intervene to halt or limit a foreign takeover of a German marque while every German marque has been on a foreign spending spree( except for Porsche but watch out since it recently received board approval for a foreign acquisition).

    IMO no bureaucrat should stop any foreign takeover. Free global competition will teach the Germans that the grass is not greener on the other side (MB takeover of Chrysler, BMW take over of Rover, VW take over of Bentley, Seat and Skoda) . You dont need any bureaucrat to prevent such a lesson to be learned.

    Jaguar should not to become a company of glorified Nissans or Porsches with accented wood dashboards! The best solution for Jaguar is a dignified death. There is no need to keep Jaguar on life support as Ford has done with Mondeo platforms and Taurus engines.

    I say pull the plug and get this misery over with!
  • emaussemauss Member Posts: 151
    At that price point, I felt there was just no excuse for what I saw. So much so that I did not purchase a car that is drop-dead gorgeous and is more powerful than a locomotive.

    ...My A8L is now ready at the dealer and I will pick it up tomorrow.

    (E)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    $52k in the 1980's was 4-5 times the average new car cost, and it was not barely discounted at all. Today, few even know exactly how much the true market price for an S-class is, what with $7000 discount, subsidized money-factor and inflated residual. I have been seeing S-350 advertized on lease deals below $450/mo! That's barely 1.5x the average new car cost.

    Also, interesting that you completely skipped over the point about "cheap MB" in the 80's meant a car costing nearly three times the average new car price; whereas today, an entry level MB is at or below average car cost, depending on where you live in the world. Talk about massive brand dilution.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    " I don't think Germany, America or Japan would ever standby and do nothing like the British basically did if their biggest and proudest brands were being taken over like that."

    We'll see when GM & Ford are gone, if you were right. I hope you are.....
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I'm with you on this one . . . pull the plug! Some brands simply live better in memory.

    Also, something very interesting happened. I saw another late model E class broken down by the side of the road in the break-down lane with hazards flashing and driver making cell phone call. As I passed it, I realized that I happened to have one of my cameras in the trunk. So I took the next exit, dug out my camera, and doubled back; here's what I got:

    http://www.pbase.com/brightness04/image/53833398/large

    If you view the image in "original" size, you can make out that it is a very recent model E320 4Matic (license plate blurred out to fend off privacy hawks). The shutter release happend to catch the hazard lights blinking too. If not for the fact that I had already passed the spot 25min earlier, I would not have known the car was a Mercedes before I had time to get my camera ready as the service vehicle was immediately behind it, and the traffic was going at 60+ mph

    For what it's worth, in the couple weeks since you suggested that I take some pictures, I was on vacation down the Carribean for over a week. I don't commute for my work, so this morning's trip was only the third driving excursion that I have under- taken besides the two midnight runs to and from the airport.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Did I ever suggest that you take pictures?

    I have seen top ranked Consumer Reports cars needing roadside assistance.

    Maybe this MB driver did not have routine maintenance done to his car?
    Maybe this MB driver had a panic attack and is having difficulty phoning his therapist?
    Maybe this MB driver did a major crime and is stopping at the roadside in order to set up a good alibi?

    There could be billions of reasons why he is on the roadside. And those billions of reasons may have nothing to do with a unrelibale car.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    $52k in the 1980's was 4-5 times the average new car cost, and it was not barely discounted at all. Today, few even know exactly how much the true market price for an S-class is, what with $7000 discount, subsidized money-factor and inflated residual. I have been seeing S-350 advertized on lease deals below $450/mo! That's barely 1.5x the average new car cost.

    I can't help but ask so what? A S-Class starts at 65K for the 2006 model year and come 2007 it will back to 75K or so. If they were to follow your theory about pricing an entry level S-Class would cost 125K! Then you'd say they have priced themselves out of the market, which would be true at that price. Doesn't make any sense to me and I honestly don't even know what your point is now. So what if the S350 leases for cheap, everyone doesn't lease and all makes are running cheap lease deals this time of year.

    Also, interesting that you completely skipped over the point about "cheap MB" in the 80's meant a car costing nearly three times the average new car price; whereas today, an entry level MB is at or below average car cost, depending on where you live in the world. Talk about massive brand dilution.

    I didn't skip over it, I just really didn't find it worth debating because I already stated that could be seen as brand dilution especially adding a car like the A-Class or B-Class, but likewise you didn't adress the point about Mercedes selling more expensive cars at the high-end than any of these brands here. Like in the over 60K category Mercedes stands alone in sales race and they also sell cars for over 150K in decent numbers too. So IMO for every theory about brand dilution because of the A/B/C-Classes there is one to counter it by looking at the fact that Mercedes sells more cars over 60K and some really pricey ones too and for prices they've never dare attempted before now.

    I mean what do you think Mercedes should do. Ignore the meat of the market after they've already had success in it? They are no different than anyone else at the bottom end, but they are indeed different at the top. I see nothing from Lexus, Audi, Acura, BMW, Jaguar selling much for over 100K and even those like BMW/Jaguar/Audi have only one model over 100K repsectively. Mercedes has a good half dozen or so of them no one else here does.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Jaguar should not to become a company of glorified Nissans or Porsches with accented wood dashboards! The best solution for Jaguar is a dignified death. There is no need to keep Jaguar on life support as Ford has done with Mondeo platforms and Taurus engines.

    I say pull the plug and get this misery over with!

    Youch! I can't agree with that Dewey. Jaguar is to fine of a brand (and certain models of car) to just be given up on like that.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    haha, your desperation is showing. How about the simplest and most probable reason: the car broke. The odds of all these other potential excuses that you come up are so remote it's not even funny.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Today's $65k is equivalent to about $30k in the 1980's, after inflation adjustment. That means S-class today is not much more exclusive than 190 was back in the 1980's. That is brand dilution, also explains why Maybach became a necessity. Whether a $120k entry price point would price S-class out of market is entirely dependent on the judgement of the market place. Back in the 1980's, that's indeed the price of entry for S, after inflation adjustment. The fact that MB and S class probably can not command that kind of repect anymore is indicative how far the brand has fallen.

    The claim about MB selling more cars over $60k than anyone else is highly questionable. For one thing, the $60k price point is simply fake: the best selling S class worldwide, the S350, can be leased for less than $450/mo; that is hardly indicative of a $60k car. $450/mo reflects a car clearing in the market place between $30-40k range after all the money shuffling from one pocket to another is accounted for. Also, Lexus is barely offered in many markets. In the US, where Lexus has been on the market for a decade and half, Lexus outsells MB in the $35k+ range, just to pick a mid-point for $30-40k.

    Also, the handful cars a brand sells at the top end hardly matters. Ford GT selling for well over $100k does not make Ford a High End Luxury Marque. It's the bulk of the fleet mix that decides the marque. 190 was still a premium car as it was nearly three times the average new car price of its time, and it was not discounted. Whereas today, the vast majority of cars that MB sells are not much more than average new car cost, some below average cost.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yet at the end all that, Mercedes is still higher up on the scale than Lexus, BMW, Jaguar, Audi, Acura or Infiniti because none of them sell anything in numbers at or above the price points I gave in my earlier post.

    So what if a S350 can be had for a cheap lease price. You seem to think everyone leases and they don't. Lexus outselling Mercedes between 30-40K only goes to show that Lexus isn't a high-end marque, if we go by your theory of; "It's the bulk of the fleet mix that decides the marque".

    I disagree with any and all of this because Mercedes is still seen by most as the status leader here and around the world, regardless of what they sell the most of. To simply look at what they sell the most of doesn't even tell half the story IMO because it ignores how far the brand reaches and what people are willing to pay for the MB brand. That being several rungs up from any other brand here, except BMW which is close, but not equal.

    Yeah Mercedes had to create Maybach to compete with Rolls-Royce and Bentley, you're right, but they Mercedes-Benz has no trouble competing with the rest, none whatsoever.

    If anything Mercedes has reached down and up at the same time with various cars, so the Ford comparision isn't valid. Ford was never a premium brand so the GT is a far reach for them, unlike Mercedes which was always a premium brand. Ford selling one 150K GT model has nothing to do with anything Mercedes does.

    If the "bulk of the fleet" decided the brand then BMW, Jaguar, Lexus and others wouldn't be considered premium marques over the likes of Acura, Saab, or Volvo because all 3 doe most of their business in the 30-50K range.

    Sales alone don't determine premium or high-end status by a long shot, otherwise BMW would be known only for 3-Series and Lexus for the ES/RX and they'd be no more distinguished than Volvo, Saab, or Acura, who sell almost exclusively in the 30-50K range.

    The depth and type of cars offered by a marque play a huge factor in the status of the brand, not just what they sell the most of.

    I don't disagree that Mercedes has been diluted from their earlier days, but this about what the average car costs and what not simply doesn't mean much when everything from Acura to MB can be had on the cheap (relatively) nowadays. Though everyone doesn't lease either. My point is that is even with this in play MB is still higher up on the scale than anyone, except the truly exclusive brands like Bentley, Aston, Rolls etc. There are lots of things that back this up, sales of high-end cars by MB being one of them. This about Mercedes selling cars that cost below the price of the average new car is "fake" also because it assumes that everyone leases. The price of the average new car is what, around 27K or so. The only Benz you'd have a chance of getting for that price is the C230 Sedan, you surely aren't going to get anything else for that price, at least not in the U.S.

    M
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    I remember in the mid 90's when Mercedes cars were like a bank vault when it came to resale value.

    People were paying 5-10,000 over sticker for the C class 2 door coupes and convertibles. 2 year old cars were selling close to the factory MSRP. The huge S class the baddest sedan on the block, and the E/S class both had a very high resale.

    But those days are gone. The S class doesn't have near the presence of the old model. They watered down and made the Clk coupes look like genereic rounded off japanese cars. And something went off kilter when it came to quality control and that "bank vault" feel of the old mercedes seemed to disappear.

    The CLS sedan is a step in the right direction and we'll have to wait and see what the reaction to the new S class will be.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    People were paying 5-10,000 over sticker for the C class 2 door coupes and convertibles. 2 year old cars were selling close to the factory MSRP.

    I understand the urge to pile on and make a point about how Mercedes has fallen from grace, but lets not be ridiculous. No one paid 5-10K over sticker for any C-Class Coupe, CLK, E-Class Coupe or anything other Mercedes Coupe of the last 20 years and there never was a C-Class Convertible.

    M
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    haha, your desperation is showing. How about the simplest and most probable reason: the car broke. The odds of all these other potential excuses that you come up are so remote it's not even funny.

    Perhaps... but taking a picture of one car on the side of the road is hardly representative of anything. In trying to prove something, is that your desperation showing?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Youch! I can't agree with that Dewey. Jaguar is to fine of a brand (and certain models of car) to just be given up on like that.

    Pulling the plug would be extreme but what is the solution?

    The best solution I believe is a Porsche takeover. But even that solution is not great when you consider the German record of British take-overs.

    Ford ownership has produced some amazing upper end Jag vehicles (the new XK). The problem is with the lower end Jags suffering from Ford platform sharing.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Member Posts: 659
    I meant to say CLK. It started with a C, so I lumped them in with the general C class.

    As for people "not" paying over sticker for CLK's in the late 90's, you are dead wrong.

    I lived in Atlanta, GA for most of the 90's up until 2000, and lived about 2 minutes away from RBM Mercedes. There were waiting lists at many MB dealers for the CLK line. And especially for the convertibles. People did pay $5,000 plus over sticker just to get one so they didn't have to wait 6 months. And private party sales were putting CLK's (especially the 430 ragtops)in the paper for over sticker, and people were paying it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Porsche has enough irons in the fire—Cayman, Panamera, the VW investment, meeting future US fuel consumption and emissions standards, the hybrid venture with VW which is probably the biggest nut to crack because it will require a lot of R&D money.

    All of a sudden Porsche is being viewed as a conqueror. It wasn’t too long ago that they were on the precipice. Are they really in a position for an acquisition of a car company? And since Cayenne accounts for more than 50% of their sales, what is their position going to be with the hit SUVs took this year?

    As a Porsche owner and fan, I don’t want to see any foreign acquisitions, just the evolution of their own species. To see them repeat the follies of MB would be a big letdown. The VW venture carries enough intrigue and potential headaches, and their nearly self-sufficient hybrid effort is big big $tuff in my opinion.

    By the way, I think maybe the talk about Porsche being approved for a foreign acquisition could have something to do with companies like parts suppliers, particularly for the hybrid venture, not acquiring a car company.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles