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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I knew what you were doing and I said to myself, "He won't be able to keep this cyber-silence up for more than 3 weeks."
    I guess I was right. ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If you say so. In terms of life cycle though, the new Benz and the LS460 will be the "new kids" while the BMW and Audi will be middle aged, giving them the automatic advantage of having the latest and greatest. I dont think I could see myself buying the Benz though, not because of anything that the badge represents, but as C&D said "more electronics than Circuit City". That would make me really nervous.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    the concept of the 3 year lease.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    OAC, my friend I'd say there is a better chance of a blizzard in Miami then you picking up a 7 or an A8 with a new and beautifully styled LS staring you in the face.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    OAC, my friend I'd say there is a better chance of a blizzard in Miami then you picking up a 7 or an A8 with a new and beautifully styled LS staring you in the face

    That was funny, Len... I had to chuckle out loud reading that. Only a few more days to the NAIAS where the '07 LS460/600h will be unvelied. We'll see... The Audi has always intrigued me. My old boss leased one 3 years ago, and I recall riding in it once. Beautiful interior. Got about a year to purchase, so we'll see...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I knew what you were doing and I said to myself, "He won't be able to keep this cyber-silence up for more than 3 weeks." I guess I was right.

    Funny guy....
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Not sure if it's been posted here but the unveiling will be webcast on the lexus site 12:25pm ET Sunday, see the link in the lower right of the lexus.com site.

    My guess is that the event is going to be rather short on details.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Interesting isn't it? MB actually managed to outsell BMW for the month of Dec, never thought I'd see that. Now watch as all these brand's sales drop like a rock for Jan. Happens every year after the various Dec sales are over with.

    How did Cadillac do for 2005? In looking at Jaguar for 2005, they're really a niche player in every sense of the word.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My guess is that the event is going to be rather short on details.

    I doubt it, this is going to be the real deal I think. Either way I'll be there next weekend.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Unfortunately, things are going to get worse for Jag before they get better. (If they get better). The X, S, and XJ all have brand new, very heavy hitting competition to deal with. The X-type will just go away, but they're going to have to do something to try and salvage the S-type. Things arent much better for the XJ. While its currently Jag's most competent car, there's just no way it can hold off the LS and S-class. Jag's future basically depends on the XK.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Jag's future basically depends on the XK.

    That isn't good considering how small that market is. A facelifted SL is coming sometime this year too. I don't think the XK can save them, a new (and stunning) S-Type would provide the volume and presence they need, IMO.

    I almost want to cry when I think about how beautiful their cars are and their situation.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yet another problem that Jaguar has is the AJ-V8. Its a good engine, but its aging rapidly, and the displacement and power are no longer competitive. They need at least 4.5L and 350+hp in normally aspirated guise, and quick. The blown 4.2 was no match for the old 400hp V8 M5, so it doesn't even have a prayer against BMW's 500hp V-10.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Neither did I forsee Benz passing BMW for December. Back in April/May MB's prospects for 2005 weren't very bright.

    Cadillac cars had another double digit year: +13.3%. Sales have increased now to the point that further big increases will be a challenge.

    Jaguar - things are looking grim. Sales were down 33.7% in 2005, dropping from 45,000+ units to just over 30,000.

    Profits from 30,000 sales won't cover development costs for the upcoming new generation of cars. How long will/can Ford keep funding Jag's losses?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Once a car yenta, always a car yenta!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    2005 units sold, YTY change

    Lexus 302,895 +5.5%
    BMW (exludes Mini) 266,200 +2.4%
    Cadillac 235,002 +0.3%
    MB 224,489 +1.2%
    Acura 209,610 +5.7%
    Infiniti 136,401 +4.5%
    Jaguar 30,424 -33.7%
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Those totals include both cars and trucks.

    Here are some makes with car/truck sales split.

    Lexus cars +11.5% trucks +0.4%
    Infinity cars +9.6% trucks -5.6%
    Cadillac cars +13.4 trucks -19.6%.
    Mercedes cars -5.8% trucks +51.8%
    Porsche cars +36.6% trucks -24.9%
    Jaguar cars -33.7%
    Acura cars +9.1% trucks -2.3%
    BMW cars -2.1% trucks +6.7%

    The M and R classes are boosting MB: BMW trucks are doing well. The Cayenne, MDX and Escalade aren't moving but Porsche, Acura and Cadillac cars are booming.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Scott, thanks for that analysis.

    Certain german car fans tend to dismiss Lexus because it is so dependent on truck sales. But now in 2005 MB turned in a respectable year overall, basically because of a rejuvenated truck line.

    Maybe trucks matter now?
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The blend of trucks sold vs. cars seems to vary from year to year.

    Cayenne really boosted Porsche sales when it first came out. It is still a big seller by Porsche standards but the Boxster is very hot right now.

    The Escalade line was big for several years. The new Cadillac cars are selling very well, overshadowing the trucks.

    I expect the new cars from Mercedes will put MB trucks in the shade in 2006.

    But remember - my predictions aren't always right! :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Certain german car fans tend to dismiss Lexus because it is so dependent on truck sales.

    Only when certain Lexus fans harp about Lexus sales and how it implies superior cars, overlooking the fact that up until now two out of four of Lexus' cars (GS IS) didn't do squat for Lexus' overall sales picture. The implication was that the Lexus sales machine was built on the back of an all-star lineup of bestsellers and nothing could have been further from the truth.

    Never said that they didn't count only that they didn't always fit in with all the Lexus sales rhetoric.

    That about MB having benefited primarily from a totally rejuvenated truck line isn't correct either. The M-Class is the only new "truck" for 2005 that really did anything. The R went on sale late in the year and barely did anything until Dec, and even then it only added 4959 units for the year! Hardly much to base that rejuvenated truck line statement on. Secondly the CLS and SLK did a lot to boost that final number also, especially the CLS which is an all-new model that didn't replace an existing model. The CLS alone added 14K units to the sales total for 2005, more than the SLK and more than M-Class' increase in units vs 2004. It goes CLS,ML,SLK and then R in that order as to what model did the most for MB in 2005. The only reason the press release is touting a big jump in "truck" sales is because MB didn't sell many "trucks" in 2004 to begin with.

    M
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I think the CLS is a big winner. I hope it continues in the MB line for more than just the current model cycle. Sales of the new SLK are a pleasant surprise.

    A CLS in Alabaster/Sunset Red, Bordeaux/Cashmere or Silver/Sunset Red is stunning. IMO the kind of car that invites you to walk around observing it from all points of the compass.

    If you buy me a CLS you can choose the color for me as long as it isn't black. Summers are way too hot in the badlands for black cars or black interiors.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    That about MB having benefited primarily from a totally rejuvenated truck line isn't correct either.

    You can spin it however you want, but according to scott's data MB car sales were down -5.8% for the year, and it is only the increase in truck sales that kept them from showing an overall sales decline for the year.

    I'm not saying it was a terrible performance overall, as I have always liked to look at total vehicle sales, including trucks. But if one frames the analysis the way some german car fans sometimes do (e.g., ignoring the trucks) then MB didn't do so hot.

    It wasn't you but maybe dewey or someone who not long ago was touting BMW as being the leading US seller of luxury CARS, to the exclusion of SUVs. All too often we see german car fans want to exclude SUVs, basically because Lexus does so well in that area. Now the shoe is on the other foot...with SUVs having saved MB from a down sales year.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It wasn't you but maybe dewey or someone who not long ago was touting BMW as being the leading US seller of luxury CARS, to the exclusion of SUVs.

    True and BMW is the number one luxury car seller in USA! And according to the latest statistics BMW cars have more momentum than BMW SUVs. Up to now nothing has changed.

    Spin-Free Analysis of Undistorted Data
    Annual sales of BMW's two SAV models are off 2 percent. The company reported sales of 68,367 vehicles compared to 69,829 in the same period of 2004. SAV sales were down 11 percent for the month to 5,954 vehicles, compared to 6,720 vehicles sold in December 2004.

    Monthly sales of BMW automobiles were up 9.3 percent, to 20,510 cars compared to 18,762 sold in December 2004. Yearly automobile sales were up 4 percent, with 197,833 automobiles sold compared to 190,250 in the same period a year ago.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The BMW sales numbers in my post #12515 are wrong!

    I rechecked all the other brands and they are all correct.

    Here is the right BMW sales data for 2005:

    BMW cars +4.0%
    BMW trucks -2.1%

    Thanks for helping me notice my mistake, Dewey. :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    LOL, I did not even notice your numbers were wrong.

    But I am grateful to be of assistance even though my assistance was accidental. :D
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    When looking at BMW's performance, look only at CARS, because it makes BMW look better.

    When looking at MB's 2005 performance, look at VEHICLES (cars + SUVs), because it makes MB look better.

    When looking at Lexus' performance, look at whatever makes Lexus look worse.

    That's the "new math", I guess. Or should I say "German math"?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    December sales of the 5 series are up 25% over December 2004 and up 15.7% YTD.

    December sales of the E are down 16.4% from December 2004 and down 14.5% YTD.

    Thank you Chris Bangle for your daring and exciting new design which has so animated the LPS and HELM buying public.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Some logic consistency please. If 14k units in the first model year is considered great sucess, the old GS and IS did just fine. Alternatively, you have to admit that numerous MB models "don't do squat for MB" either; the list would be a long one: SL, CL, CLK, CLS, S AMG, E AMG, C AMG, CL AMG, SLK AMG, G, G AMG, etc. etc, accounting for more than 3/4 models in the MB lineup.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Like I said before, the huge discounts that MB Financial was offering actually made them decent deals, assuming the lessor lives in the city and reliable car is not an indispensable requirement. The question it begs though, can we really call a $300-550/mo car brand "high end luxury marque"?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    BMW is the number one luxury car seller in USA!

    I would not call 325i a luxury car. That model alone accounts for about half of all BMW car sales.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The last model year sales are always awful in part because production is cut. So in every case the new model will look great comparatively to the prior year. This is true of any brand. I think the best way to look at first year model sales comparatively is against sales of the car that are two years removed from it as opposed to the prior year.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In hindsight - If you bought an auto stock I hope it was Toyota's. I remember talking about this two months ago and DCX is flat vs a big run-up by Toyota. As I said back then Toyota was the growth buy and still is.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TM
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    1-yr comparison chart: DCX v TM

    link title

    And sales.... wow ! We got German car fans talking about sales ? Blasphemous !!! The year must be slow with news, eh ! NAIAS will be here soon enough...
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yes I can recall quite vividly that DCX vs. TM discussion.

    At this point TM has more momentum while DCX at the time of our discussion had more momentum.

    Currently TM stock is doing very well and deserves to do very well. All auto executives including in Stuttgart admire Toyota's shrewd and successful bets in various segments of the auto industry. That in itself is undeniable.

    Unlike TM, DCX is a turnaround situation and I seriously doubt that anybody would believe that their turnaround would happen in two months.

    Whatever happens to DCX or TM stockprices will not change my views on what brand of car I will choose to drive and own. Test driving is what will determine my choice.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You can spin it however you want, but according to scott's data MB car sales were down -5.8% for the year, and it is only the increase in truck sales that kept them from showing an overall sales decline for the year.

    No spinning needed. Maybe you need to look at the numbers yourself. The CLS is what put MB ahead in 2005 compared to 2004. The CLS sold more units than either the R-Class or the number of units the M-Class added to it's 2004 total. Like I said before they're touting a big increase in "truck" sales because in 2004 they didn't sell that many to begin with.

    They did fine in car sales too considering the age of certain core models.

    M
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Karl Brauer, editor-in-chief of Edmunds.com, has this to say about the styling of the '07 S:

    ... in 2006 automakers are showing too much flair, both literally and figuratively.

    Let's take the all-new 2007 Mercedes-Benz S-Class as an example. This model has long represented the pinnacle of the Mercedes brand. It's supposed to exude refinement and elegance because that's what S-Class buyers exude (or at least that's what these buyers tell themselves they exude…). Regardless, the newest model is neither refined nor elegant. Its formally clean shape is broken up by exaggerated fender flares, not to mention a busy trunk that looks to be inspired by — believe it or not — the current 7 Series. In this case both the actual fender flares (that go so far as to break up the headlight design), and the general sense of "flair" swirling about the entire vehicle distort any sense of world-class luxury car. Some have suggested the S-Class took its styling cues from Mercedes' ultrahigh-end brand, Maybach. Well, there are two models that have garnered styling accolades in recent years and should serve as inspiration — the 7 Series and the Maybach.


    I have to reserve final judgment until I see the car in person, but from the pictures I've seen, I unfortunately have to say I agree (except for the last two sentences, for which I can't figure out exactly what he is trying to say).

    Love the square, hate the "flair"
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Some logic consistency please. If 14k units in the first model year is considered great sucess, the old GS and IS did just fine.

    How about some common sense please. The GS and especially IS were dirt cheap (compared to a CLS) and competed in a much cheaper segment than the CLS and still coudln't sell in the past. The CLS isn't nearly as cheap, and that lease mumbo jumbo isn't going to apply because MB had no trouble at all moving 14,000 CLS. Quit comparing a 30K IS to a 65K CLS and saying the IS didn't do bad in sales back then. Plain ridiculous, you're comparing three different segments with the IS,GS and CLS, yet can come up with a grand excuse for the IS and GS for being sales flops until now. Must be the Lexus math/logic.

    Alternatively, you have to admit that numerous MB models "don't do squat for MB" either; the list would be a long one: SL, CL, CLK, CLS, S AMG, E AMG, C AMG, CL AMG, SLK AMG, G, G AMG, etc. etc, accounting for more than 3/4 models in the MB lineup.

    I guess you have the sales numbers for those AMG models to back up this really bogus claim right? Most if not all of cars you mention cost more than most any Lexus, yet they're supposed to set the sales charts on fire. All those models most certainly do add up when the final numbers are counted, difference is you don't see anyone constantly harping about how Mercedes is going to outsell this and outsell that everytime someone brings up ANY other aspect of an automobile.

    Twist, spin and twist is your game here..knowing full well those high-end models like "E AMG", "C AMG" aren't going to set a sales chart on fire, yet two of Lexus main cars, priced attractively in a competitive segment couldn't sell at all (first IS) and/or dropped off like a rock (GS after 2000). Two compare the two segments is silly and I think you know this.

    One minute the AMG models mean nothing in the total sales picture (your words from a few weeks ago) now they're supposed to set the sales charts on fire, nevermind that nothing from Lexus competes with these models and in most cases no Lexus is even in the same price range. The CL,SL,G, and their AMG versions, plus the AMG versions of the E,C,SLK, and G. Absurd.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    C&D formally reviewed the S550 this month, and I really dont remember any complaints about the styling. Strangely, they said that the new knob based COMAND system is the best one in a German car yet (even better than MMI) and at the same time, had a piece on how difficult it was to do simple operations like changing the radio station. C&D contradicted itself several times this issue, actually.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I haven't seen a review of the new S yet that didn't say that the new Comand Controller wasn't the easiest to use of the three German systems. It isn't unusual for one or two C&D editors to go against their overall view in that counterpoint section, but a whole section about Comand and what not that doesn't say the same thing as the roadtest? :confuse:

    C&D overall is becoming really fickle now it seems, even more so than usual.

    The usually harsh British press loves the car.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Its formally clean shape is broken up by exaggerated fender flares, not to mention a busy trunk that looks to be inspired by — believe it or not — the current 7 Series. In this case both the actual fender flares (that go so far as to break up the headlight design), and the general sense of "flair" swirling about the entire vehicle distort any sense of world-class luxury car. Some have suggested the S-Class took its styling cues from Mercedes' ultrahigh-end brand, Maybach. Well, there are two models that have garnered styling accolades in recent years and should serve as inspiration — the 7 Series and the Maybach."

    I have to reserve final judgment until I see the car in person, but from the pictures I've seen, I unfortunately have to say I agree (except for the last two sentences, for which I can't figure out exactly what he is trying to say).


    He's being sarcastic.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Autoexpress article

    (cross-posted on the 2007 LS forum)

    Anyone know how the 500Nm translates into lb-ft?

    Also, lexusi had some interesting tidbits here.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    500 newton meter = 368.781 pound foot. :)
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    He's being sarcastic.

    Thanks. Reading it again in the light of day, that seems obvious. That will teach me to try to interpret subtle humor after midnight!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If that 370hp holds true that will be the biggest leap in hp ever from one LS to another. It make sense though because they always split hp between the two S-Class V8 models. In this case those two being the 335hp S450 and the 382hp S550.

    Funny how you posted this article on the LS board right after someone else claimed that their "sources" told them this stuff.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, the bump from 4.0 to 4.3 at least on paper made basicaly no change at all. They already had 290hp out of the last few years of the 4.0 (300hp in the GS version). A few ft.lbs of torque, and that was it. They need a lot more than a few more ft.lbs of torque this time around in order to keep up with the S550 and 750i.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    BMW is the number one luxury car seller in USA!

    I would not call 325i a luxury car. That model alone accounts for about half of all BMW car sales.


    So there we have it. BMW isn't in the luxury car business. That'll be news to a lot of people....
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    Yes I bought TM in June for the first time ever after ordering an RX400h. I wondered about the stock, checked it out, decided it was a bargain. As of today up over 50% and I wouldn't be surprised if I doubled my money by the end of 2006. The RX400h is excellent and I'm first at my dealer for the GS450h. The RX400h is doing really well in
    the wealthy West Los Angeles precincts. The GS450h being a real performance sports car will be a sensation.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It's soooooooooo goooooood to be back home from my Christmas vacation with the family. I noticed that Merc1 shot off the first post of the year. Congratulations, Merc1.

    I'm going to tiptoe nice and easy into my first post of the year with a simple prediction. Nothing too dangerous.

    The critics can say whatever they want. I absolutely predict the new '07 Mercedes S-Class will be a significant success story.

    Additionally, I'll go out on a limb and jump into the future a little bit and further predict that the upcoming Mercedes GL will stand up against the large SUV downturn, and will sell pleasantly well.

    The market is "ripe" for this new S-Class. Just watch.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    In the US, the fight will be between LS, S, and 7. The A8 and XJ will remain on the sidelines, deservedly or not.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well 370hp and a 8-speed tranny, can't wait to see that, even if it is a Lexus. ;)

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Welcome back, naturally I hope you're right. I think the S will be a hit, but the GL I'm not as sure about.

    M
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