High End Luxury Cars

pat · June 2001

As I mentioned in another discussion, I need you to email me: pat@edmunds.com. Please do so as soon as possible.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

pat · June 2001

Some posts which were either off-topic or did not meet the TOU requirements for civil and respectful discourse have been removed.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

carphart · June 2001

Censorship is so subjective.

Postings were removed somewhat arbitrarily.

pat · June 2001

I posted the reasons that I removed the messages that I did. If anyone has any questions or anything further to say about this, please feel free to email me.

Meanwhile, let's get this discussion back on track.

Thanks.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

arcoates · June 2001

What is wrong with those pics at that british site? It resembles the site I gave. I think it looks great from the front and side. Those backlights are a little odd, but otherwise it is a great looking car. But, those pics look airbrushed. Even though it says that those are official pictures, then why does no one else have them? That looks like another computerized version. It doesn't really have the same body proportions as the blacked out spy photos on the other site. So either BMW has scrapped that blacked out design or the pics on the british site are bogus. Even so, I think it looks very good either way~ A.R.

mbaudibest1 · June 2001

i think the front end is the same, which is fine. but the reason why you havent seen the pics on other sites is b/c they just got posted a few days ago. that's why it's a news article!!!

bitkahuna · June 2001

Finally looked at the WhatCar pics - which are consistent with the images in the Road & Track issue, so I guess that's it. (I couldn't get to the pics the first time I visited because my ad filtering software cut out a lot of the site's home page functionality.)

A.R. the reason only WhatCar has 'em is probably because they were only posted yesterday.

As far as those pics not having the same body proportions as the blacked out spy photos - I'd say it's hard to compare - I didn't think the blacked out spy photo revealed too much. The other images on that GeoCities site were just wishful thinking.

No manual tranny planned A.R. - sorry.

Also, if, as it says, it's quite a bit bigger than the current 7 series, then it's definitely aimed as a highly competent luxo express and not a sports sedan. That will be left to the 5 and upcoming 6 series I presume.

Anyway, exciting car I'm sure. Looks terrific, particularly that back view.

pablo_l · June 2001

I just think the Jag XJ8 premise has stood firm in a time when other car vendors have set a standard to allow interior space to balloon up beyond what I think I *really* need in a car. I am 6'1, and have an XJR. Personally, I like the "cozy" cabin feel. It is a great 2+2 concept, but admittedly not a big sedan despite its external dimensions. I do appreciate the other concepts, I think all (Beemer, Lex, Merc etc) have great interiors, but the open space also translates into a feeling of being less connected with the car, and detracts from the sport grand tourer experience. That's all.

Jag is seemingly about to go more mainstream and join the others with their new XJ design, and I feel the current XH (especially in XJR guise) will leave a void behind no one else is taking on. Which is why I got myself an '01 XJR. It is a dated conept, some say. To me, it's a timeless car enthusiast statement for those who make the concesion to life with 4 doors after having only had coupes...

I think all the cars mentioned in this topic are phenomenal. But I could only live with the XJ8 personally. And I am not sure I could live with the car that seems to be desitned to replace it. Probably it'd be back to coupe existence (and ideally a Bentley Continental :-)

pluskin · June 2001

What is it about X350 (XJ replacement) that you feel is going to be so much more mainstream? It seems to me that a lot of Jag traditionalists are really down about a car that they have never actually seen, sat in, or heard the actual details of.

arcoates · June 2001

Of course the 7 is not going to be offered with a manual. But neither is the current design and it is still a very involving drivers car. Even with this approach, it is still one of the best. It doesn't have the best interior or the best styling, but it is still one of the best. So you can have a distinct car that is a drivers car and still be popular and sell lots of cars. I don't think that BMW is going to soften their cars for the Lexus crowd, I think they will make it just as sporty, with a better interior and nicer styling. With that, it will truly be the Ultimate Machine, let alone the Ultimate Driving Machine~ A.R.

pablo_l · June 2001

Preview shots of the X350 abound and at this stage are very consistent: it looks like a stretched S-Type, with the obligatory bubbly cabin to maximize headroom. Not that it ugly, and probably indeed it will sell better than the current, more individualist XJ8, but nevertheless it will bury the concept of different, somewhat endearing quirky Britishness, if you understand what I mean. Engines and all others specs sound great. But just like I, personally, would not buy an S-Type, when it comes to buying a more rational and functional sedan I'd probably look elsewhere, too. The XJ8 offers a very unique value proposition, and if you buy into it, the market offers no other alternative. It'll be somewhat sad to see the Baby Bentley concept go away.

badtoy · June 2001

Luv ya -- you really police the site, and for that I thank you. Nothing more unpleasant than people resorting to prepubescent behavior when they're talking about cars.

As for the Q45 -- everyone here knows I'm a Toyota loyalist, but I try to be honest about things (I love ALL cars anyway, and that helps), and I have to reply to the following: "The Infiniti Q45 is a wannabe something that we don't know what it wants to be. on the one hand it wants to be a BMW 740i, on the other hand it want's to be a LS430, but in the process it turns into neither and turns into cow dung. Let's see it's as ugly as a Maxima, even looks like one from the front, it's interior is downright a disaster, and even with 340bhp it only does 0-60 in 5 1/5 seconds. Nor is it's handling as great as the 740i or S430 sport even with 18" wheels & tires. And it doesn't even handle better than the barge called the LS430. The Infiniti Q45 is basically a wannabe BMW-Lexus-Benz for people who can't afford a 740, LS430, S430."

Whew! Let's review our history a minute. The original Q45 was universally praised in the automotive press for its performance and handling -- especially relative to the LS400. It's only problems were somewhat controversial styling and a dingbat advertising campaign. Bad launch = bad sales. A shame really, but that's the way it is. When the LS and Q were introduced at the Detroit Auto Show, everybody swarmed over the LS but stayed away from the Q like the flu -- this before anybody had a chance to drive it, which tells me it was primarily a styling issue (plue the interior didn't look as luxurious as the LS's).

Now, two generations later, we have thelatest version, and it sure looks like a winner to me in the performance category -- but the front end looks like an anteater (to me), and that may prove problematic once again.

Nissan (and by extension, Infiniti) has had some strange ideas about automotive styling for the last ten years, and it has hurt them more than they're willing to admit.

My prescription? Make the cars beautiful. Stop trying to be edgy or "with it" and just make them sleek and beautiful. And don't copy ANYBODY (the LS430 comes immeditately to mind).

Someone mentioned the interior -- matter of taste, of course, but every time I see their ad in the magazines I just drool. I think it's beautiful (as is the LS430's, which recently won Best Interior by the Automotive Interior Designers association).

I notice that most of the 45 baching comes from BMW and Mercedes apologists, by the way. Surprise, surprise.

Oh yeah -- someone also mentioned 5.5 seconds to 60 as being kinda wimpy. Dunno where you were in the 60s, but that's big block Chevelle territoy, dude. Check it out.

pluskin · June 2001

Here's the thing with preview shots. Its just somebody at a car magazine making guesses, and producing images on their computer. How anyone got the idea that it has a "bubble" roof like the S-type is beyond me. It doesn't. And you won't mistake it for anything but an XJ.

arcoates · June 2001

Jaguar is going to have to go more mainstream, there's no doubt. But I don't think it is to the effect that people are dreading. A Jaguar will always be distinctive, and now that it has money again, it will be able to afford to be distinctive. Sure, it may lose a little of it's panache, but when it flies by, everyone will still know it's a Jaguar and wish to own one~ A.R.

bitkahuna · June 2001

The movie 'Pay it forward' features a silver S-Type in many scenes after a rich guy GIVES one to a reporter whose classic Mustang is destroyed.

Anyway, makes the S-Type look GREAT.

pablo_l · June 2001

"Jaguar Monthly" Magazine is pretty reliable when it comes to Jags. The pics in there do not look like fantasy artwork, but rather like the pictures of a very real car that is very well into development. At this stage before the S-Type's release, we knew how it'd look like pretty accurately, just like thew X-Type was documented well ahead of time. Given the fact the new XJ is going to be out late '02/early '03, the fact there's so little out shows that probably Jag itself dreads the idea of following up their workhorse with something that backfires. When you've had a car auch as the XJ *so* long out there, I guess there's no way you can please everybody. I am sure the new XJ will be a phenomenal car. I am just not sure whether I'll buy a bulky, truly large sedan, ever. I guess we will see.

ripinrocket · June 2001

donfeen,

Obviously you want to hear otherwise you wouldn't be reading and responding.

It's not my fault nobody is buying the Q45, not my fault the Q45 has pathetic resale value.

pluskin · June 2001

Well, let's for example take Jaguar Monthly's preview of the X-type. Basically they stuck the front of the XJ onto a smaller car. Now fundamentally, that's not that far from the truth. But obviously, in reality its not quite that simple. All I am saying is, that its fun to look ahead at what future products may look like, but I would hesitate to pass the judgement that they are going to screw up the next one, based on computer enhancements.

im_brentwood · June 2001

Relax already.

Truth of the matter is that Q45s have had horiffic resale value. This I know. I am a dealer, I buy them at auctions. I see how cheap they sell for.

I think that things will be different with the new one, but that's only a guess.

Chill out guys..

Bill

vinceburlapp · June 2001

I just posted very good pictures of the Next 7 Series. It's pretty impressive!

Go to my roommate's site:

http://www.thehollywoodextra.com

The scroll down to the red link to my car page.

ripinrocket · June 2001

those pics of the 7-series are in line with what is in the July issue of Car and Driver magazine. The front end is definately *barf*. The rear end is sorta nice and the interior needs work.

pat · June 2001

Some posts which were off-topic and clearly designed to inflame have been removed.

Folks, if you want your post to stay in this discussion, you have got to find a way to express your opinions in the civil and respectful manner called for by your Terms of Use.

Brentwoodvolvo gave some excellent advice: "Chill out"

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

rexconde1 · June 2001

Topic is getting pretty bad, half the time I come in here and it is useless jibberish. Almost not worth keeoing the topic alive...

Anyway, I cant say I really like that new 7. The rear looks like a concorde, and the front looks like a combo Z9 with an audi.

I have talked with several of the other dealers and they agree that they dont like the looks of the new 7.

Robert

fenn · June 2001

I like the photos of the new Beemer. I have confidence that in its final rendition it will be attractive and classic...just like the past incarnations of the 7 series.

In light of recent issues here, I expect that the same party who stated that.."the front end is definately barf" will have a need to debate this over and over again...This is counterproductive to good discussion. Instead, why don't we try to state our future opinions in more subdued and respectful tone. OK?

pat · June 2001

That is EXACTLY what needs to happen here.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

bitkahuna · June 2001

I don't remember all that I've posted, but Pat, did you have to delete any of my posts!? I've tried not to be out of line.

arcoates · June 2001

How can the poster exclaim that the front end of the new 7 is "barf"? It looks like the front end of a new 3, just a bit wider and more updated. It isn't as radical as the Q's front end, nor the S-Class. It is traditional BMW. I don't see where people's problems are with the projection? It looks like a curvier 7, nothing more. The back end is high- so that's probably a show car thing. As are those space aged back lights. Otherwise, in silhouette, the car is gorgeous~ A.R.

bitkahuna · June 2001

http://www.bmwnation.com/home.html

Click on the small pics for bigger ones with MUCH more detail.

arcoates · June 2001

Thanks bitkahuna- so now we have the real story. And it looks like that is the design (which I love), and we get more info on the iDrive system. If you think about it, it makes sense. Where does your hand rest when driving? At your side. Not at eye level where the usual climate/stereo/nav controls are. So, put a joystick there. You can rest your hand in it's normal position, look at the big screen and control everything. It IS simple. Now, we'll have to see if they make it easy. Hopefully there aren't too many menus to scroll through before you get to what you want. We'll see though~ A.R.

is4b2rd · June 2001

Take a look at the offical BMW AG site at

http://www.bmw.com/e65/

The technology on this car trumps the S-Class by leaps and bounds. I hated the car when I first started seeing spy pics, but have grown to admire it. I think it will look much better, more impressive when seen in person. I think it will be more akin to the old W140, which is what BMW designed it to, not the W220. That is why they were shocked to see the sleek W220. But I do believe the interior materials on this car will also trump the W220. "This is not your dads BMW" might be an appropriate term. :-)

Frankly, I think the new BMW continues the typical German Teutonic styling. Mercedes has chosen to soften it's edges more, more like a Japanese auto.

Just my humble opinion, please no rants and raves.

lemko · June 2001

...but the parking lights above the headlights remind me of my old Chrysler Fifth Avenue. I took a look a the interior shot but can't see the shifter. There is obviously no place for it on the floor and I don't see one on the column. Does it have a pushbutton shift? Does anybody have a close-up of the shift mechanism?

lemko · June 2001

Boy, that is one weird set-up. I guess new 7-Series owners will need to attend a clinic to sufficiently learn these new drive functions. Did Chrysler buy BMW? This kind of reminds me of the old pushbutton 50s Torqueflite.

bitkahuna · June 2001

How long before this happens - when politicians decide iDrive is too distracting.

arcoates · June 2001

It does sound awfully complicated, but I don't think BMW is going to make something that is really confusing and takes away from their main goal- driver enjoyment. Everyone thought that COMAND was so complicated when it came out, but I here that once you take the time to learn the system, it is very intuitive. Let's hope BMW can explain this new system and make people realize it's the wave of the future~ A.R.

merc1 · June 2001

I must have time to study these sites/pics. I can say though the styling is NOT an instant knock-out, but not ugly either. Let me see.....more in a few.

M

merc1 · June 2001

Well this segment definitely has a new leader. Not the S, A8 or LS will be able to top this car. The only questions will be the acceptance of the I-drive concept and the styling. The styling of which I *kinda* like. The interior will be a knock-out as far as the materials are concerned, but the I-drive I have some concerns about. It's funny but Mercedes with their W140 set the way for the supreme luxury car with Lexus and now to a lesser extent BMW following it in terms of construction, tall styling and size. But Mercedes unfortunately listened to mainly a bunch of auto writers and other non-owners and abandoned the over-the-top concept of the W140 car, just when Lexus and again to a lesser extent BMW are adopting the more concept. The BMW 760iL will easily be the best luxury car in the world when it arrives. The Mercedes and Lexus will be sent back to the drawing boards for their mid-life facelifts, around 2003 or 2004 for the Benz and 2004 for the Lexus. Now sit back and await Mr Piech's answer to both with new A8 sometime next year. How I wish I were an actual BUYER in this lofty group.

M

arcoates · June 2001

merc1- you're as good as a buyer. You've tested more of the cars in this group than I have. I always listen to you because you have first hand knowledge of most. I agree, the 760iL is going to be the best in the world. I'm sure when you actually see the car in person, you will like the styling much better. Pictures always distort the car. For instance, when I saw the X-Type for the first time, I was astonished at how small it really is. I know it is a compact car, but the pics made it look so big. Let's just hope this iDrive is all that it's cracked up to be. Then, BMW will be king of the class~ A.R.

vishnu_da · June 2001

I know you guys probably don't have it in the US but the 7 looks a lot like the new Rover 75 which is the most beautiful sedan on the road today both inside and outside. The front fascia is almost identical, maybe these guys worked too closely during those months of bimmer ownership at Rover.

merc1 · June 2001

Thanks. Well you know how I feel about Mercedes, BMW and my personal underdog Audi. As long as one of these three have the title "World's Best" I'm smitten. Mercedes had it for so long so in a way I was *kinda* glad to see BMW leapfrog Mercedes' 560SEL in 1988 with the 750iL, and it looks like it will happen again for 2002 with the 760iL. Now lets see what Audi will do with the next A8. I know what you mean about the X-Type, because this past January at the Detroit Autoshow I was amazed as to how small the F-Type sports cars was.

vishnu_da,

Actually there is *some* resemblance there. I've seen the Rover 75 on tv (Auto Motor und Sport) a few times. It's one of the different, but good looking cars. It's going to be so refreshing to get Alfa, and Maserati back in this country soon. Imagine Rover and a few other long-gone Euro returning!

M

im_brentwood · June 2001

Ahh.,....

If I could buy a Rover 75....

pablo_l · June 2001

BMWs have great technology. But BMW has never been known for great, timeless designs. In fact, most BMWs do not age gracefully at all. Take a look at an 80s 5-series, for example. The 2002 is a famous car, but a very mediocre design. No one can say it is a "beautiful" car. BMW say it themselves: function above all. Great engineering concept, but esthetics are not necessarily BMWs traditional strength, even though they have come a very long way. The new 3-series looks chubby, though, I think it's lost the gracefulness and image of agility it used to have compared to the mid-90s design. And the 7 series has always been quite massive, and seemingly is getting even more so with a back that nearly looks like a hatchback's.

I must truly wonder how most of today's somewhat anonymous designs will age. I don't think it'll be pretty.

arcoates · June 2001

I beg to differ. I agree that the 80's 5 series and 7 series are very ugly. But the 80's 3 series, and early 90's 7 and 5 series are timeless designs. When I see an older 5 on the road, I don't think "Ugly" at all. I prefer the design of that car to a new Honda Accord or the ES300. Same with the 7 series. I think BMW has realized that to go with their outstanding engineering, they need a design that will be able to live as long as the mechanics of the car will.~ A.R.

pablo_l · June 2001

All I am saying is that BMW is not known for great timeless designs. I do think Bemmers are great cars, but I also think they age less gracefully than a Merc or a Jag. Some more than others. I would pick a BMW for many things - brilliant engines, the best shifting transimissions... but not design. They've had a few bigs hits (like the 3-series that came out in '92 or so), but most of them are, while not downright bland, not very innovative, either. To each their own, though. The design of the 5 and 7 series defines over-conservative, avoid-all-surprises. The new 3-series looks too chubby, I think they've killed its former sleek elegance. And the Z3 and Z8 will age very badly. The 8 series could've come out of a big-3 Detroit design studio. The car that estabished BMW was the Isetta, not exactly something that will get million dollar bids in Pebble Beach. BMW simply does not have a great tradition as a sleek design house. They have gotten much better, but for a Euro brand they also crank out very ugly stuff with amazing regularity. (Think Z3, and especially the M Coupe.) With very capable engineering, though.

lemko · June 2001

I drive a Cadillac Deville and the 7 Series is the only car that comes close to the length of my car. I think the longer a BMW is the sleeker and more athletic it looks. I think a 7-Series BMW looks a lot trimmer than any Mercedes S-Class and definitely more fleet than an Audi A8. BMWs get stubby-looking as you go down to the 5 and 3 series. The 5-Series looks the best it has ever, but the 3 is forever afflicted with that short, stubby and narrow look. I also can't justify paying $35K+ for a car that is shorter than my girlfriend's old Mercury Tracer. To me, the Z3 roadster is quite ugly and the Z3 coupe is hideous.

stebu · June 2001

IMHO, the BMW 3-series is a fine looking sedan and has been for several years. I don't think of it as stubby at all, but rather muscular and sculptured without appearing overdone in the way a Pontiac might be. The Z3 cars are another animal altogether. Purposefully a bit over the top. But, their not necessarily about aging well.

However, I fear the new 7-series may be a bit too derivitive of it's smaller, less expensive siblings. In the "statement" segment these cars fall in, I wonder if many are going to be enthralled by the idea that their expensive new 7-series might be mistaken for a 325i or 525i. Plus, the rear on the new 7 is, well... strange. I think it has to do with the trunk. It almost looks like it was taken from a different car and retrofitted in place. Overall, I still like it but, again, I love the 3-series look.

Beyond the exterior, the interior is nice but doesn't have the more luxurious and modern look of the Lexus or Infiniti. The idrive is a bit of a curiosity which I'll have to reserve judgement on until I can actully see it in action. No doubt, the 7 will probably, in the BMW tradition, be a great drivers car. But, it doesn't appear to be a slam dunk winner or, in several key respects, even the class leader when compared to some of the other cars here. I'll take a 330i or IS300 (or the G35 when and if it arrives with a manual)... and the change please.

rexconde1 · June 2001

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. . .

Give me the Web Page that that was from I want to see this for myself... The address that you gave doesnt seem to work.

Robert

is4b2rd · June 2001

With the garbage that comes out of Detroit, I find it hard to believe that BMW will join forces with GM. Can you imagine a General Motors built Rolls-Royce. YUK!

Though I guess they did have GM transmissions a few years back. :-)

pablo_l · June 2001

That link doesn't seem to exist...? Rumours about BMW being acquired have always floated around in Germany. But the Quandt family will never sell their majority share. They are fiercely proud about it, and it would not make much financial sense for them anyway for many reasons (German tax laws for estates being one of them, major family ownership in corporations gets perpetuated forever). BMW is a company that defines core competence: they know how to do that, fine BMW cars and somewhat quirky yet brilliant motorcycles. They screw up everything else they touch, including cars that somehow do not comply with BMW's core philosophy. You will see how they bury Rolls Royce when they attempt to take it over. Considering that corporate genetic code, it is amazing they've remained a successful corporation for as long as they have. Typically companies with narrow core competencies do not stay successful for as long.

Don't get me wrong, I am and have always been an admirer of BMW. It has an unmistakable corporate identity, and it is totally committed to it. When it tries to do something else, it's ultimately repealed as a distraction from what they *really* want to be doing well. It is a major liability from an investor's point of view in the long term, but product-wise it results in excellence for the time being.

pablo_l · June 2001

...is up and running in German under www.bmw.de, pic to the right saying "Vorfreude, der neue 7er." Plenty of interior and external pics. I think the car looks somewhat chubby, yet in this world of homogenous, ananymous cars, I think the new 7 series has more identity than several other luxury cars. Not the best looking, but most certainly not the worst looking of the group, and if you like a more muscular, squatty look (which personally I don't, I'd buy a new Mini Cooper for that, to me luxury cars ought to be more about sleekness, and commit themselves more to form over function. Leave function over form to the lower car segments.) this might be perfect.

The interior is very nice indeed. Might set a class standard. The steering wheel is waaaaay too busy, though. I already dislike the tendency to have volume and cruise control buttons integrated into the steering wheel. This goes way beyond it. I want to drive a car, no feel like I am in a friggin' Boeing 747 cockpit. Car manufacturers need to reconsider this trend a little, I think. Or maybe it's me? Do you guys like this inflation of at-your-fingetips bloated electronic functionality? Are you truly constantly fiddling with stereo controls and such? To me, it is intrusive. The steering wheel ought to be a somewhat sacred point of contact, as far as I am concerned, leave all the electronic gizmos out of it.

bitkahuna · June 2001

bring it on... give me controls on the wheel. If the tactile feel and positioning are done well, it's so much better than reaching for the console/dash.

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles