High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · January 2006

I too believe the $15-20,000 price advantage draws a lot of buyers to Lexus.

Please don't mention anything factual like that because all you'll get is a bunch of garble about leases. Don't you know that buyers who finance and/or pay with cash don't exist anymore?

M

pat · January 2006

Some of you need to understand that posts which have no other purpose than to beat someone else over the head are pointless, do not get your message across to anyone, and further, are not appropriate and will not be acceptable going forward.

If you cannot discuss the ins and outs, ups and downs, plusses and minuses of the cars and the marques without stomping all over someone else, you need to not post at all.

Chill out and get back to the productive and interesting discussion that you are all capable of and all deserve, please.

merc1 · January 2006

I see, still spinning with that MSRP nonsense. Earth to Mitsubishi1, MSRP has little bearing on true acquisition cost for Mercedes nowadays with all the discount going on. It's about as absurd as calling Maybach a $350k car when there is a $100k discount, and it's cross-shopped with a $170k Bentley by every would-be acquirer. MSRP is only relevent to the scribe who has no snow ball's chance in frozen you-know-where actually acquiring the car; anyone who actually spends that kind of money is quite good at maximiizing their money's worth

A new S-Class isn't going to sell with a discount and even if it did it isn't going to sell at a discount big enough to put in the same price range as a Lexus LS. For the record I'm talking about the 2007 model not the out-going 6 year old 2006 model.

The Maybach isn't meeting its sales targets and is a new segment and brand for that matter so a dealer advertising such a discount on a car is to be expected.

The S-Class is a proven product. You aren't going to see any such large discounts (if any at all for the first year at least) on the brand new S-Class. Period.

M

pat · January 2006

I have had to remove a couple of posts with very wide pictures in them and have emailed the posters a version of what I'm about to post here. It's something you all need to know, so I'm saying it to everyone.

I need to ask you not to post pictures that are wider than about 500 pixels. A picture too wide pushes the text out under the right sidebar making the first few messages on the page impossible to read. Very wide pictures can make the page have to be scrolled from left to right for folks to read every single line on the page that the picture appears.

You need to either edit the pictures to the correct width (as I mentioned, no more than 500 pixels) or just post a link to the pictures instead of actually displaying them.

Also, when you do post links, depending on their length, they can mess up the display in the same manner. To keep that from happening, you should use the URL button under the post box.

For that, all you have do is click the button, paste in the URL, type a name for your link over the words "link title" and click the button again.

If you have questions about any of this, just drop me an email. Thanks for your cooperation.

brightness04 · January 2006

A new S-Class isn't going to sell with a discount and even if it did it isn't going to sell at a discount big enough to put in the same price range as a Lexus LS. For the record I'm talking about the 2007 model not the out-going 6 year old 2006 model.

1. By the looks of the new LS, the new S-class is obsolete on arrival;

2. We do not even know how much the new LS will cost, so there is no basis to your claim regarding whether they will sell in the same price range at all. IMHO, those who think new LS will have an MSRP under $60k are dreaming, unfortunately (as much as I would like to share that dream myself).

scott1256 · January 2006

Saying that the new S class is 'obsolete' seems a little extreme. I believe the new LS will offer the S class real competition now that an LWB version available.

I maintain that for LS/S/7/A8/XJ buyers saving $15-20,000 is a big consideration.

Fewer cars in this price range are leased relative to entry level luxury cars.

ljflx · January 2006

Merc1 - you have to realize many - over 60% of these cars and I'll bet closer to 75% are leased. In my area I asked my salesman on the percentages when I redid my GX 470 a month ago. He worked for Ray Catena (both Lexus and MB and has a brother that is still working at Ray's MB dealership) for 15+ years and he told me that the average is 65% Lexus and 75% for MB across the board. Admittedly just a sample of 1 dealer but the biggest one for both MB and Lexus in NJ. I'll bet the S and LS are higher than those averages given the higher pricepoints of both. So the leasing prices are a much bigger part of the deal then you seem to realize. You may be a big fan here but some of us have shopped these cars and prices stay with us. In 2001 there was barely a price difference between an $83K S-500 and a $71K LS430 ultra. The S was in the $1425 range and the LS was in the $1375 range. At those level the S was the bigger bargain given its MSRP yet the supply of the LS ultra ran out - so that type of price was no hindrance to sales. I know and remember it well as I got lease quotes on both and was told I'd have to wait 6 months for an ultra if I really wanted it. Difference in the lease prices was tied to MB using a way overdone 68% residual vs a 58% residual used by Lexus on the LS430. These are the leasing subsidiaies Brightness talks about and he's right on the money. In fact the cars were exact opposites in retention value 3 years later with the LS holding in at 63% and the S at less than 55%. You can keep trumping MSRP but it's about as meaningful as the Prime rate is to a Fortune 50 business borrower - for most buyers. In my opinion you have to be nuts to buy an S-class vis a vis the lease deals that are out there.

dewey · January 2006

Well it certainly doesnt appear that BMW considers Lexus as a serious competitior. Kudos for Infiniti for at least being noticed in Munich.

From the today's Wall Street Journal:

BMW spokesman Robert Mitchell says the German car maker sees more competition from Nissan Motor Co.'s Infiniti and Volkswagen AG's Audi, which have long offered sporty, youthful cars. "Lexus has their work cut out for itself if it's going to try to convince BMW owners to look at something else," Mr. Mitchell says.

ljflx · January 2006

"Fewer cars in this price range are leased relative to entry level luxury cars"

Couldn't possibly disagree with you more. I'd estimate that 75-85% are leased.

dewey · January 2006

Which one is the Lexus LS and which one is the BMW 7 series? You've got to be an auto enthusiast or someone with hawk-eyed vision in order to tell the difference. If Lexus believes that competing with BMW is merely a visual styling matter, then Lexus is bang on!

Fortunately there is more to a BMW then its Bangle looks.

oac · January 2006

This is more like it, Merc1... Good one.

On paper at least the LS460 makes the S450, 750, A8 and XJ all seem pointless, but the proof is in the driving and real world evaluations...

There are core MB, BMW, Jag, Audi buyers regardless of what the other competition is doing. However, its the swing buyers that can really impact this sector's leadership. Seemed like we do agree tho' that the LS will likely retain its crown in the NA market.

Now here's a question for you: Do you seriously believe that the reason the LS is the leader of this pack is bcos it is cheaper ?

I seriously would question who is using your ID if anything from Lexus didn't win you over.

Hmmmm..... The current Gen 3 LS430 didn't win me over, that's why I still own the Gen-2. Ditto the ES, RX, & SC. Only the '06 GS, '06 IS, LX, and marginally GX (only the swing rear gate is my issue with this truck) are my favorites in the Lexus lineup. Of course, the '07 LS is already a winner in my books. Lexus may NOT win styling, but it more than makes up for it in the total package of its product - pricing, features, and customer care. That is a sign of a great product. If the Germans understand that, they'd be more successful against Lexus, imo.

This LS460 is a winner in this market. Packed with all of these features, with a drive that will be dream-like, I am expecting perfection, and I think they will deliver the ride and handling. The rims are 19", and the suspension will be there to handle all of that powertrain. I drove the IS350 non-sport, and the 330i SP, the latter drove marginally better, but I will need an apples-to-apples drive before I can give the crown to the Bimmer. However, the '06 GS300 I drove didn't do it for me. Smooth yes, driveable, no. But the GS350/460 are only a year away, so maybe they'll re-tune these cars for better performance and handling, and maybe a kill switch for VDIM.

designman · January 2006

Dewey, in my opinion the only thing they have in common is that they are both cars.

tagman · January 2006

By the looks of the new LS, the new S-class is obsolete on arrival;

This is pathetic. No matter how good the LS might turn out to be in its own right, the new S-Class will deservedly be a successful vehicle for Mercedes, and you can bank on that.

Let's all be clear about this. The LS is going to sell well, but it is RIDICULOUS to spin it into something it is NOT.

Go to dewey's post 12721. That is the TRUE story that requires NO WORDS. The Bimmer was already a done deal. The "new" LS looks like a carbon copy by COINCIDENCE? What's "new" about this that should make the TRULY new S-Class obsolete? TOTAL BALONEY.

I have said this ALL DAY yesterday. . .

Lexus designers are snipers with powerful scopes, and they have BMW in their crosshairs. You can quote me on this.

TagMan

scott1256 · January 2006

'third way' car among the German and Japanese models. It offers a unique cabin atmosphere and feel.

Sad to see this distinctive brand wither under PAG management. At 30,000 sales/year Jag is in life support territory.

The XJ is overpriced, IMO.

scott1256 · January 2006

I think it is more like 50-55% leased, not 75-85%.

IIRC Auto Week had an article stating 52% of BMWs were leased as of mid-2005.

Anyone have an accurate source for leasing data?

mariner7 · January 2006

Latest CAR has an article on Nissan GT-R R34 Nismo. It made two interesting points.

1) It feels R34 was the fastest point-to-point car on the planet.

2) At its introduction in the late 80's, journalists driving R34 were lapping Nurburgring faster than professional drivers driving Porsche 928. CAR said the 928 drivers were shocked!

Automobile said R34 was the first production car to lap the Ring under 8 minutes. I think now the record is around 7 min. & 45 seconds, probably belonging to a Porsche of some sort. Nissan has said it doesn't care about sprint times and top speed for new GT-R, but does care very much about lap times on the world's most famous courses. I think GT-R R35 most probably will snatch the Ring record back.

As to Japan's other two supercars, Acura NSX & Lexus LF-A, with their fancy V10's, I bet they will be very fast, in a straight line!

garyh1 · January 2006

CNBC is broadcasting from the Detroit auto show today. They interviewed Jim Press of Toyota USA, and just briefly mentioned was a reference to a feature of the new LS that will parallel park the car! I guess this is the next generation of the current model's "Parking Assist". I recall this being demonstrated years ago as a computer science project, but putting it into production ... WOW. Probably in a few years only we old fogies will be able to manually parallel park, just like our kids can't do math without a calculator.

Hmmm, Merc1, I wonder if any other manufacturers will be "copying" this in the future?

dewey · January 2006

Hmmm, Merc1, I wonder if any other manufacturers will be "copying" this in the future?

Parking Assist? This sounds like dumbed down parking to me.
Is Lexus trying to cater to driving/parking challenged people? Is this what is called Lexus luxury?

syswei · January 2006

Parking Assist? This sounds like dumbed down parking to me.

Maybe so, but then aren't cruise controls and automatic tranmissions examples of "dumbing down" technology? Yet all of your beloved German brands offer those "dumbing down" features, don't they?

Like others here you seem to have an emotional need to criticize Lexus for whatever it does. If BMW had been the one to introduce an auto-park feature, you'd likely be hailing it as a great innovation.

dewey · January 2006

Anyone have an accurate source for leasing data?

Excellent point. 75 to 85% leased sounds like mere hearsay to me.

dewey · January 2006

It's about as absurd as calling Maybach a $350k car when there is a $100k discount, and it's cross-shopped with a $170k Bentley by every would-be acquirer.

Brightness04,

just curious to know what the source of your data is?

dewey · January 2006

in my opinion the only thing they have in common is that they are both cars.

I read your past posts about how different the new LS looks compared to the 7 series. But the closer I look the more similarities I see.

Tagman and I must have "styling cue blindness"? But since that sympthom does not exist I highly doubt it?

dewey · January 2006

If BMW had been the one to introduce an auto-park feature, you'd likely be hailing it as a great innovation.

IMO using cruise control and having auto transmission in a BMW is Big Money Wasted. If BMW invented auto-park then BMW would not be a company focused on drivers. It would be a company I would avoid.

Am I anti-Lexus? Nope. I am just against any technology that removes driver input from the driving experience.

syswei · January 2006

IMO using cruise control and having auto transmission in a BMW is Big Money Wasted.

You need to get in tune with real-world 7-series buyers. How many 750s and 760s in this country do you think are sold without cruise controls and automatic transmissions? I believe the car can't be ordered any other way than with those features. So the answer would be ZERO.

dewey · January 2006

Just because I like BMWs does not mean I like every single BMW model.

IMO I would never buy a BMW 7 series. At that price range I would pick a BMW M5 with a stick. The M5 is my definition of a real BMW.

tagman · January 2006

I have to say the "driving experience" as expressed by dewey is HIGHEST priority to many Bimmer owners, no doubt, and MANY others as well, of course, but there simply are times when cruise control, and other automated features, are a blessing. I live in California, and once in a while have the unfortunate pleasure of driving Highway 5. For those that know, cruise control, at a time like that, is a gift from God. So, while I personally have very little use for cruise control, I must admit that I am VERY glad to have it during certain conditions, and it is then suddenly money WELL spent.

Regarding the auto-park thing, it reminds me of Lexus's advertisements that boast about heated seats and rain-sensing wipers, as though they are soooooooooooo special and unique to Lexus. Frankly, the auto-park feature is a terrific gimmick with potential "cool factor" to one-up the competition. I would NEVER use it, but I must admit I've seen some pathetic drivers and parkers out there that could use an AUTO-PILOT . . .or better yet a chauffeur.

Auto-park is only one small detail that Lexus would HYPE, but what kind of idiot would base a purchase decision on that one feature anyway? (Answer = an idiot that can't park???)

TagMan

carguynj · January 2006

7 Series are nice when you pick them up 3 yrs old. They depreciate very fast unfortunately. My friend bought a 3 yr old 7 series for 26k. It did have 70k miles, but it looked brand new. He loves it!

designman · January 2006

Yeah I guess we are slowly approaching autopilot. I have no problem with new features such as the auto-park that Syswei mentioned. I even marvel at them. My problem comes when they are not offered as options, rather they are foisted upon us. And Id hate to see what happens if auto-park goes berserk just once. Actually, I might be inclined to use it. Im wondering, does it have one speed, and just how fast can you park with it? Also, is there a limitation to the tightness of the parking space? Does it center the car nicely between the space? Yaddy yadda, etc, and so on.

designman · January 2006

Tagman and I must have "styling cue blindness"?

Hey, Im glad to hear your opinion and try to understand what youre talking about. But if I disagree as I do in this case, I just treat it like a dubious call by an umpire on a pitch. My knee-jerk reaction is to suggest that the ump get a pair of glasses. Heavens, I would never tell him that though.

;-)

oac · January 2006

Am I anti-Lexus? Nope. I am just against any technology that removes driver input from the driving experience...

You have shown by ALL of your utterances and posts here that you are indeed anti-Lexus. No doubt. But that is OK, no need to hide the plain truth.

You claim to be against any technology that removes driver input from the driving, eh ? Does your BMW have a slushbox or an MT ? Does your wife's old MB have a slushbox or an MT ? If both have the auto tranny, then you must not have been *driving* all these years... AMong many auto improvements through technology are CVT, SDG, SMG, etc.. to improve driving experience. Would you rather all cars have a 4-speed MT since the most engaging part of driving is rowing your own gears ?

Truth is technology evolves and those who cannot see change and growth as positive end up on the wrong side of history.

tagman · January 2006

OK, some claim to not see the similarity to the vehicles in post 12721.

I PRINTED the page and then cut the page between the two vehicles. I then placed one on top of the other. Let me just say that if one of them was the key to your house, the other one would open the door with no problem at all.

DEAD MATCH!!!

Coincidence?????????? What are the odds of that?????????

For those of who say the only thing in common is that they are both cars, or that it is the call of an umpire, and more blah blah blah . . . I say print the page and overlay the two images.

Beware the Lexus sharpshooters . . . they are good . . . VERY good.

TagMan

syswei · January 2006

As implemented on the Prius in Japan beginning in 2003 (as an option that 80% of buyers took): The driver is responsible for throttle and brake, and the IPA controls steering automatically through an actuator mounted in the steering column. The navigation system display is used to prompt the driver to change gears, go forward, backward, etc. (hence the DVD/Nav system bundling). So, in short: you do the pedals, it does the wheel. source: link title

Of course, the LS implementation could differ.

docnukem · January 2006

Really now...if it is "Parking" assist, then it is not really driving is it? I mean you are PARKING the car. I am sure it is a neat trick. You can bet that other manufacturers will offer it on high-end vehicles, but if BMW or MB offers it, it is not going to change how the vehicle actually drives.

There are many advances which reduce driver input but are clearly superior (ABS anyone?). While traction control can create problems, it solves more. I love to drive, but when the roads are icy, I certainly don't mind the car choosing to switch from RWD to AWD and kicking in the ESC.

designman · January 2006

Nice try, but it's specious. Show the three-quarter views and see if you can make the same claim. Also you are not considering surface topography and the tons of other details.

dewey · January 2006

Does your wife's old MB have a slushbox or an MT ? If both have the auto tranny, then you must not have been *driving* all these years...

I have never ever bought a slush box and have no intention to. The 83 MB300D slushbox of my wife's is a family heirloom passed on from my father. The slushbox was not my choice and if it was I would have picked 83 MB240D with a stick.

Would you rather all cars have a 4-speed MT since the most engaging part of driving is rowing your own gears ?

No I am a Luddite who likes 6 speed sticks.

tagman · January 2006

Of course, Lexus massaged the copy. Bold move on Lexus' part. The outging LS was the same situation! At that time Lexus had Mercedes in the crosshairs. Guess what? The LS looked a lot like the previous generation S-Class and E-class Mercedes. Another coincidence?

Actually, I'm not faulting Lexus for this. It's brilliant strategy. I'm just saying that they see a mousetrap and try to improve it. The Japanese have ALWAYS utilized COPYING and then attempting to IMPROVE as a business model. Stop the denial already. It's what they do!!!!

syswei · January 2006

Stop the denial already.

Sometimes germancarfans are in denial on certain things, and sometimes lexicans are.

Designman though is one of the few here who is relatively unbiased. Plus, he is a design professional. I for one respect his opinions when it comes to styling.

oac · January 2006

Sometimes germancarfans are in denial on certain things, and sometimes lexicans are.

Designman though is one of the few here who is relatively unbiased. Plus, he is a design professional. I for one respect his opinions when it comes to styling.

I second every word of what syswei said here....

hpowders · January 2006

My 545 looks pretty close to the new LS from the side.
A tribute to Chris Bangle's greatness.

tagman · January 2006

Perhaps you think I am biased, but I will tell you that I do not have an "at-all-cost" allegiance or loyalty to a particular marque. I've had the opportunity to enjoy a number of them.

My college degree many years ago in advertising taught me plenty about marketing hype, strategy, rhetoric, and good-old-fahioned BS. The advertising company I currently own is deeply involved with graphics design, print production and digital imaging.

I may not be as unbiased or credible as designman in your opinion, and perhaps he is a design engineer of some sort, and I respect all of that, whatever it may be, but his opinion is not more relevant than others. It sounds like it carries a bit more weight with you guys, however, and that's fine with me.

I call it like I see it, no matter what the brand is. I've said that before.

I am convinced that the "Lexus people" have brilliantly targeted first Mercedes Benz and more recently BMW. That's the way I see it.

TagMan

ljflx · January 2006

Scott - you honestly think that 50% of the people walk in with a $80-90K check for an S-class? Think about that. I'd say 15-85 is being generous. If they are financing via a loan then that is really bad because lease financing is cheaper and you have an option to ditch the car after 3 years.

General rule of thumb - the more something costs the more likely it's leased if leasing is available.

bdr127 · January 2006

7 Series are nice when you pick them up 3 yrs old. They depreciate very fast unfortunately. My friend bought a 3 yr old 7 series for 26k. It did have 70k miles, but it looked brand new. He loves it!

Where'd he get that car? KBB price on trade-in for a 2003 745i with no options and 70k miles in Fair condition is $30k.....

designman · January 2006

Oac and Syswei thanks guys.

TagMan your background is interesting. Except for our opinions of Lexus/BMW styling we have a lot in common. I did some heavy-duty time in advertising years ago as a creative director and art director. Things changed with the ingress of computers, for the better I might add. I hope your business is doing well too.

tagman · January 2006

Thanks. That's very interesting, indeed.

Graphics departments are full digital workflow, numerous PC and MAC platforms, designers utilizing mostly all Adobe CS at this point (some remaining Quark). Production side is ALL HEIDELBERG (German

) with Xerox providing the on-demand minor digital relationship.

Love it, too.

I guess you don't see the Lexus/BMW style connection that is emerging, but that's OK with me.

TagMan

blckislandguy · January 2006

Your friend has more courage than most people. Buying a non-certied 7 Series takes guts.

blckislandguy · January 2006

The Jag XJ is overpriced when it is 20K less than a S Class or a 7 Series yet has more reliablility, more uniqueness, lighter, better mileage, etc. etc.?

garyh1 · January 2006

I am convinced that the "Lexus people" have brilliantly targeted first Mercedes Benz and more recently BMW. That's the way I see it.

Hmmm, tagman, I have to say if you take those very small pictures of the side of each of the LS and the 7, and put them next to each other, there is a resemblance. But the small size of the pics (which takes out a lot of the detail) and the particular view chosen can make a lot of cars look similar.

I do think the '07 LS looks more like a 7 than an S, and conversely the previous model LS looks more like an S than a 7. So there may be something to what you are saying.

On the other hand, I think the previous S looks much better than the current LS, but the '07 LS looks much better than a current 7. So whatever Lexus is doing, they're getting better at it!

To my eye, and with the proviso that I haven't seen either of the '07 models in person, I'd rank them in this order for pure exterior styling:

'06 S (the ultimate large car that hides its bulk)
'07 LS (looking extremely well put-together)
'06 LS (nice but plain)
'07 S (can't stand the wheel flares)
'06 7 (can't stand the butt, and the overall chopiness)

merc1 · January 2006

1. By the looks of the new LS, the new S-class is obsolete on arrival;

Only in your dreams sir.

2. We do not even know how much the new LS will cost, so there is no basis to your claim regarding whether they will sell in the same price range at all. IMHO, those who think new LS will have an MSRP under $60k are dreaming, unfortunately (as much as I would like to share that dream myself).

Well we'll see what it cost, but I bet it isn't going to be more than 65k to start either way.

M

merc1 · January 2006

Merc1 - you have to realize many - over 60% of these cars and I'll bet closer to 75% are leased. In my area I asked my salesman on the percentages when I redid my GX 470 a month ago. He worked for Ray Catena (both Lexus and MB and has a brother that is still working at Ray's MB dealership) for 15+ years and he told me that the average is 65% Lexus and 75% for MB across the board. Admittedly just a sample of 1 dealer but the biggest one for both MB and Lexus in NJ. I'll bet the S and LS are higher than those averages given the higher pricepoints of both. So the leasing prices are a much bigger part of the deal then you seem to realize. You may be a big fan here but some of us have shopped these cars and prices stay with us. In 2001 there was barely a price difference between an $83K S-500 and a $71K LS430 ultra. The S was in the $1425 range and the LS was in the $1375 range. At those level the S was the bigger bargain given its MSRP yet the supply of the LS ultra ran out - so that type of price was no hindrance to sales. I know and remember it well as I got lease quotes on both and was told I'd have to wait 6 months for an ultra if I really wanted it. Difference in the lease prices was tied to MB using a way overdone 68% residual vs a 58% residual used by Lexus on the LS430. These are the leasing subsidiaies Brightness talks about and he's right on the money. In fact the cars were exact opposites in retention value 3 years later with the LS holding in at 63% and the S at less than 55%. You can keep trumping MSRP but it's about as meaningful as the Prime rate is to a Fortune 50 business borrower - for most buyers. In my opinion you have to be nuts to buy an S-class vis a vis the lease deals that are out there.

Through all this garble about leasing there isn't a single fact as to how many lease vs buy. One a bet and hunch. So what if they are mainly leased, still doesn't apply to everyone buying one of these cars unless everyone leases.

M

merc1 · January 2006

Now here's a question for you: Do you seriously believe that the reason the LS is the leader of this pack is bcos it is cheaper ?

Do you seriously think a 15-20K price advantage doesn't help the LS in being a sales leader? Here is where you other Lexus fans theory about sales starts to fall apart. One minute you point to sales as being the indication as to what the "best" product is in a particular segment, yet when a Lexus vehicle isn't the top seller in its respective class we get all these excuses about production capacity, Lexus being understaffed and what not. That is absurd. One minute sales deterimines the "best" and the next min the "best" is whatever Lexus fan say it is - because they sales theory can't be applied.

M

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