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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    You guys are arguing about the wrong things here. I don't know how old any of you are but I am 63 and have owned just about any popular car you can name. A few have been favorites of mine. A couple come to mind. The original 4 door Honda Accord, 1979. Beautiful little car. A 1978 Mercedes 240 D. Simple and wonderful. 2000 Lexus Lx 470. Maybe my all time favorite and current ride. Think of just one or two of your favorites over the years. I have probably owned 50 or so cars. After all these autos just those three stick in my mind. They are all very different.

    I guess my point is this. All the cars in this discussion are so damn good that they can bring tears to your eyes. I love them all and would never back myself into a corner by swearing by just one. They are all different and that is good thing.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Now the diehard BMW fans may have something to say about it, but that isn't my debate.

    The Lexus LS460 may resemble the BMW 7 series, but that does not mean they will drive like a BMW.

    Maybe external styling is a deal maker or breaker for many car buyers. For me its the drivetrain and chassis that is the deal maker or breaker.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    A 1978 Mercedes 240 D.

    grandaddy,

    I agree! My wife still drives a 83 MB300D and she will get angry whenever I suggest a new car. I would prefer it if her car had a stick.
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Yes, a stick all right. Not a fast car by any stretch but once up to speed could cruise all day at 70 and still get 30 miles per gallon. I assumed most of you guys were younger than me, but I still love cars.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Let's see, 63-16=47 years of driving.

    I thought new every two was extravagant. 50 cars in fewer years! We should all be so lucky.

    I agree with you that some are fairly dogmatic in their statements and preferences, but we all carry our biases. For instance, I actually do like the looks of "some" Buicks, but I would never buy one simply because of my personal stereotype (and I am not talking age, here. It has been my personal experience that whenever I find someone driving erratically or timidly, in an inordinate number of cases, they are driving Buicks. Many of them are much younger than me).
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    All the cars in this discussion are so damn good that they can bring tears to your eyes. I love them all and would never back myself into a corner by swearing by just one. They are all different and that is good thing.

    Welcome to the board!

    Speaking for myself only, I am partly here "for the sake of arguement"...I enjoy debate for its own sake (back in high school 25 years ago, we didn't have a debate club...so I started one) and in fact don't care quite so much about these issues as it might appear from my posts.
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    50 sounds like a lot of cars doesn't it? I just spent the last several minutes trying to remember them all and I can only count up to 41. I am sure I have left some out. Keep in mind that some of these were company cars, etc. and that I was also buying cars (still am) for my wife. I also raised two sons who went thru a few but still managed to survive.

    As the old saying goes, I spent a lot of money over the years on cars, women, and liquor. The rest of it I just pissed away!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The pleasure of technology can best be conveyed by the following comments from Lexicans themselves on recent posts:

    1)My laptop crashed on me over the holidays and though I had just about everything backed up the one thing I didn't was my address book.

    2)Concerning the movies in the lexus.jp, i want to see the movies without interuption and becoz my DSL keeps lagging i cant, please anyone can help me if their is a way to download the movies so i can watch them offline??
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Well, it isn't as if BMW and MB are avoiding technological gizmos in their cars, is it?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    And technology is a wonderful thing as long as it improves the pleasure of driving without dumbing down the experience.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And to think that BMW has hired Microsoft to run its interior electronics integration . . . can you say, blue screen of death??
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "I'm going to be late picking up the kids, honey, because I have to reboot the BMW."
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Whether it's a hard boot or a soft boot, it gives new meaning to "kicking the tires".

    Please wait while BMWindows is starting up...

    (picture a moving blue bar here)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Try look at 1989 LS400 and 1989 420SE side by side. The 420SE with its busy grill protruding like a tumor is positively ghastly and the rest of the car was replete with 80's boxy designs. Whereas the LS400, by the looks alone it can well be a car made today, with all its cleanly flowing lines.

    Audi was a nobody in the 80's in the US. I already addressed the issue about why the press thought the original LS looked like a Mercedes: Mercedes was by far the biggest luxury car seller back then, the most frequently-seen bearer of traits associated with luxury cars that had been in place since circa 1906: slab side, broad shoulder and high belt lines. Frankly, the original LS400 had more commonality in the front with Audi V8 than with Mercedes 420SE, but hey as far as the press and public was concerned, what the heck was Audi V8. It's a common phenomenom: most people call generic big trucks Mack Trucks when it bears down on them in the rear window, regardless whether the truck is actually Volvo, Mitsubishi or Daimler; it's not necessarily Volvo, Mitsu and Daimler-Benz are copying Mack.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Wish I can even begin to understand the silly point you are making.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Wish I can even begin to understand the silly point you are making.

    Sorry but I cant help you without a "Lexus Assistance Writer" .
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The Autoextremist is at the Detriot show. He thinks the new LS is a real home run.

    "I will make a prediction now: In two years the Lexus LS 460 will be considered the finest luxury car available.... Toyota will usurp Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Cadillac and Audi in one fell swoop...the luxury market will be turned upside down.."

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml (near the bottom of the page)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Autoextremist sounds like a very reputable source!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    How bout Bimmeranian for you guys. Let's stay serious. But I do see you are having a hard time dealing with this car.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Bimmaniac?

    And I'd prefer Lexian over Lexican.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I have followed his weekly reports/commentary for a long time and his predictions have a good track record.

    He surely is opinionated, though!
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    That's why his name isn't the "Autowaffler". But there are many on this board who could lay claim to the "Autoextremist" moniker.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tagman - It's a guarantee the new car will be a smash succes and class leader in sales.

    ljflx,
    I would expect the LS to succeed as well, but I do NOT think it will be at the sacrifice of Mercedes Benz as much as it will hurt BMW. IMO, BMW relies too heavily on the 3-series. The LS will hurt the 5 and the 7 due to the price advantage, and the 3, while the bread and butter for BMW, is going to get nibbled at (I said just nibbled at) by the IS 250 and the IS 350. How can BMW rely so heavily on one model and sustain itself? I think it is dangerous.

    Lurking around the corner will be Lexus's new SUV's as well, and you can bet that they will also be a threat. Lexus can do even better with their beautiful SUV's by fixing those horrible flip-flop third row seats, and replacing them with Acura-style fold-flat seats. Also, the rear hatch on the GX 470 is dysfunctional when parked close to another vehicle in the back. And it opens to the wrong side for curb-side convenience. The point here is not to criticize the GX version of the 4-Runner or the LX version of the Land Cruiser, but to be on the lookout for newer and BETTER things to come from Lexus in the SUV arena.

    I think we should ask oac what he thinks those Lexus dealers will do with all those old Beetles coming in for trade-ins soon? Of course that can't happen, since he believes a German car fan could never appreciate a Lexus, anyway. ;)

    Watch out BMW, Lexus is going to bite you. Darn . . . I said it AGAIN. Too much Starbucks.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Tagman - I still think it hurts the S and the E the most. Don't forget you are going to get a new SC too, along with the LFA and I'd expect that (the SC) to be a grand car as well. The next LX is going to be very opulent. I have the GX and love it. The rear row is crap for two but it works nicely for one person if they are a teen - which fits my needs. I'd see the HPX coming in at some point, the GX getting bigger to about the LX side and the LX bigger and extremely opulent on the next go round. In general it's going to take real deep pockets to play here and I see Audi falling back, Jaguar slumping more and being absorbed by someone (maybe Toyota) and total domination of the segment by MB, BMW and Lexus with Infiniti stinging BMW more than Lexus will. The riches and phenomenal production efficiencies of Toyota would scare the daylights out of me if I were the Germans.

    Again - I see MB prices dropping in the future.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree that the Mercedes prices will need to drop a bit. My complaint with Mercedes pricing is more about the way they hit you between the eyes with the additional options and packages that very quickly skyrocket the price to extremely lofty levels.

    I do not think that the new S-Class will be hurt as much as you seem to think. The E has lost itself and is slated for a major update. The sooner the better on that, because the E has historically represented a great value in the MB lineup. The new one should help unless the styling comes out wrong (like the C-Coupe or the current R). I would expect it to be beautiful, though. Even a new C is coming soon and from what little I am able to gather, these three models will NOT just be downsized versions of the same basic theme (which we have all discussed here at length), and may be a bit more unique unto themselves. But we will see about that.

    Your GX is very nice IMO, but I couldn't deal with those third-row seats, nor could my wife, and I know you are willing to be honest about them. They need to be improved with the next generation, and likely will be. For now at least, I think that makes the Acura MDX the better choice.

    I think the situation at Jaguar is a tragedy. The XJ and new XK are beautiful aluminum works of art, and simply ooze style, IMO. Reliability history is so hard to overcome, even though they have drastically improved. I am NOT referring to the S-type and X-type Jags, as I personally only consider the XJ to be the true Jaguar sedan of significance.

    We differ on our outlook for BMW. I admire them for their engineering. As I remember back on my years of driving, I cannot help but remember that there was never a doubt about what kind of car that nasty maniac on the freeway was driving when he was zipping in and out of traffic going much faster then the rest of us. It was (and still is) so often a BMW. Not necessarily the best association to make with the Bimmer driver, but let's be realistic, that's what BMW's are about. But not to EVERYONE who looks at them, and that is where I think the Lexus will hurt BMW. Only time will tell, and I hope I am wrong on this one, because I do not want BMW to stumble.

    Toyota/Lexus/Scion...and Jaguar you said?

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Tagman - just looking at Jaguar from a business perspective. Toyota needs a gateway to Europe - Jaguar could be it.

    The GX is a great ride and real quiet and luxurious, and it's a beauty in white with ash interior - but I can see areas for improvement. A tad longer and wider would solve its main problems. The new 2006 feels a lot tighter than the 2004 to me and it's a lot more of the solid Lexus build feel I'm so used to. It's also far more powerful and yet gets slightly better gas mileage in my experience so far. I had no issues or problems at all with my 2004 but it was rushed to market - IMO. I can definitely feel the stronger Lexus build quaity in the 2006 and thought it was just me but independently my wife said the same thing the other day.

    BTW - I think the S will do fine and I see the segment growing in size.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Toyota needs a gateway to Europe

    ???????????????? can you elaborate on this when you get a chance? I've got to go for now and I'll definately check back on this later. Thanks!
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I agree with you.

    The XJ and XK are 'third way' cars in this group. They offer a distinct alternative to vehicles from Germany and Japan.

    The current cars seem to be very reliable. Poor dependability is an albatross Jaguar carried for years.

    I hope the XJ and new XK meet with a better reception in 2006.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If reality was not important and BMW was not a profit-maximizing corporation then I would love to see the following:

    The BMW 7 series does stumble and will be discontinued! IMO the 7 series is an ostenatitious cruiser with sports pretensions. At least the Lexus LS and MB S is focused primarily on luxury cruising. The costs of maintaining the 7 series for 10 years would cause several reported "riches to rags stories".

    BMW SUV sales takes a major hit and BMW withdraws from the SUV business. BMW SUVs are nothing more than a sell-out to appease the US market.

    And last but not least I wish BMW would strictly focus on small to mid sized sports sedans since that is the segment they have perfected.(no need for them to relentlessly pursue perfection in this segment).

    Ofcourse reality dictates the soon-to-be BMW minivans that will be called anything but minivans. Reality dictates more dumbed down technology for Bimmers. Reality dictates less BMWs with sticks. Reality dictates that future Bimmers become more luxurious at the cost of performance.

    Reality sucks!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well, I don't see as much similarity between the 07 LS and 07 Camry as you do.

    I agree. IMO the only aspects of the LS/Camry butts that are similar are the license nook, and there's a bumper cut/edge/shape that is similar too, but nothing worth dwelling on. However, I think the Camry design is clunky. In that realm the new Accord floats my boat a lot better and so does the Sonata.

    I still haven't analyzed LF-Sh/LS differences. I'm too busy... so I'll leave y'all to your afternoon coffee klatch and crumpets... later...

    ;-)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The following is from an article about automotive technology:

    link title

    After four hours of such testing, the volunteers and the test staff were surprised how dependent on modern technologies everyone had become, losing skills such as “braking cadence” once taught to drivers. “This test also showed how far car design has come,” said Graham Griffiths of the Ultimate Car Control, an advanced driver training school. "Modern cars not only have stability and traction control, they also have better tires, better suspension and overall dynamics. Technology has moved on and drivers have been left behind.”
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I say get rid of the AC in all BMW's-it not only detracts from performance, but can also lull you to sleep and reduces gas mileage.

    just give me the engine, the steering wheel, the steptronic transmission and the brakes.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Gosh folks, this is a high-class discussion which enjoys participation by high-class folks, for the most part. I guess I'm not understanding why there is so much troll-feeding going on here.

    With all of the very active and great conversation that has gone on here lately, this discussion is ending up on the Hot Topics list - sometimes that attracts some who wish to disrupt. They can't disrupt if you don't respond.

    Feel free to drop me an email at any time. Thanks!
  • jonpnjjonpnj Member Posts: 52
    I think if you bought one with ED you may be able to delete those features. Just my $0.02.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't know, but BMW's ED program sounds like a lot of fun.
    Quite a few posters on the BMW boards have purchased or leased their BMWs that way and have nothing but praise for it.

    Just being able to drive unrestricted on the Autobahn should make it an experience one would never forget.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "I say get rid of the AC in all BMW's"

    In the Tampa area?? Hpowders you'l be sayiny humina, humina, humina 100 times over when that angry group of BMW drivers corners you.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Quite a few posters on the BMW boards have purchased or leased their BMWs that way

    Ah, but did they elect to leave the A/C and stereo out? If they left those things in, are they still "real driving enthusiasts"?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    What a hilarious read that link was... Thanks Scott1256 for providing the link....

    Here are a few juicy parts:

    On VW: "Best Reason to Skip a Display Altogether. The VW exhibit was so dull and uninspiring that it's no wonder they didn't schedule a press conference during the media days. The only thing they had to talk about was the new VW Passat Wagon (OMG!),..."

    On MB: "Second-Best Reason to Skip a Display Altogether. We'd like to get a line on whatever it is the folks at Mercedes-Benz are smoking, because it must be truly special. The fact that this company would show up at the Detroit Auto Show with the monumentally embarrassing "GL" Class defies explanation - and it's one of the leading candidates in our annual Autoextremist "Answer to the Question that Absolutely No One is Asking" Sweepstakes. Combine that with the dreadfully overwrought R-Class, and you can't help but step back and say, "These guys are good." Not...."

    On BMW: "We are BMW and we have a cool display, thank you very much. BMW had more vehicles crammed in their display than just about anybody. The highlights for most people were the M6 and the M5, but we liked the bikes best...."

    On Audi: "Well, it's better than "Q7." The Audi Roadjet concept made its debut in Detroit and it was another car that had designers buzzing. With clearly the most elegant and emotional version of Audi's new "face" its main calling card, the Roadjet had the usual number of lame show car features that defy logic, like four individual entertainment centers (is anybody actually driving these days?) and a built-in espresso maker, but it also has Audi's new 7-speed Direct Shift Gearbox too. The name?..."

    On Toyota: "If you hovered quietly near the all-new Lexus LS460, you could observe the steady parade of German-speaking executives gathering for a good long look at their future nightmare. They weren't smiling or joking. It was like watching athletes watching game film of a competitor that displayed no weaknesses whatsoever - and they didn't have a clue as to what they were going to do to stop them on game day. With the new Lexus LS460, Toyota has made it clear that the often-heard refrain of, "Yeah, it's pretty good and they have a great customer service program, but it's no Mercedes and it's certainly no BMW" will be a thing of the past. Toyota is shedding its "humble competitor" persona with their new luxury flagship, and they're going right for the Germans' jugular - and on paper at least, they have an excellent shot at dethroning the status quo..."

    Wow... Interesting read, indeed !!!!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Tagman - Immediate presence in Europe plus a distribution network. Asia has to be much more interesting to Toyota and Lexus than Europe so build one place, acquire in another.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    and on paper at least, they have an excellent shot at dethroning the status quo..."


    On paper at least the Lexus GS had an excellent shot at dethroning the 5 series.

    On paper at least the Lexus IS had an excellent shot at dethroning the 3 series.

    On paper at least LS460 has an excellent shot at dethroning the the MB S Class or the BMW 7 series.

    What is on paper is not necessarily true in the form of metal. Despite this I agree it is a hilarious article. But more hilarious than true!
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The Autoextremist weekly blog is one of my favorites.

    He is very perceptive and seems to have a (fairly) unbiased viewpoint. His 'on the table' summaries are usually great as well as his 'rant' column.

    It comes out every Wednesday.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Why is it that so many of us see the obvious and the corporate managers just don't get it? It's a freakin' billion dollar tragedy.

    You all know I love German cars, but I'll pick on the German cars for a second here. I am reminded of the simple down-to-earth simplicity of a cup holder, for example. We all know that for years this feature commonly known to every American man, women, and child as the "cupholder" was basically banned from German cars. Little was it known to the Germans that Americans were born with the constitutional right to a cupholder. They just plain didn't get it! How ridiculous and out-of-touch. The excuses went on for years as to how "unecessary" and "anti-driving" it was, and then . . . suddenly . . . the Germans not only offered a cupholder, but they MASTERED the cupholder, and it then appeared as a "contraption" that would zip out of the dash or console with little plastic fingers and a spring loaded support, and basically spill your coffee all over the place just before snapping into a bunch of plastic pieces and springs.

    OK enough of my rambling . . . my point is to use this very simple example of how sometimes the corporate level is just plain out-of-touch and they just don't "get it".

    And then there's Lexus.

    Know what I mean?

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    On paper....

    The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?

    I notice you missed the part about all the German brands, or that part about Audi with an espresso machine, and 4 entertainment centers in the car ?? Convenient oversight, eh ??? Talk about gadgets, gimmicks, and no-shows.....The Germans fit all the bills...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Immediate presence in Europe plus a distribution network. Asia has to be much more interesting to Toyota and Lexus than Europe so build one place, acquire in another.

    Theory is interesting, but would Jaguar be the one to fit the bill successfully?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?

    oac - when you say "dethrone", what exactly are you referring to?
  • travelinmantravelinman Member Posts: 28
    I've read pages and pages of messages on here and the back and forth regarding "the LS rules", and "the LS styling is a knock-off of BMW".

    When I first saw the pics of the LS, I immediately thought "BMW 7 series". Except (to me) it looks a little better than a 7. But the styling IS derivative, and if my first reaction is the same as many others, it can't be just a "coincidence".

    The thing is, I don't get why it's that big of an issue on this board. Lexus will sell a ton of them. And they'll do it because the Lexus is at least as good as the BMW and MB, and $15k-$20k cheaper (probably). But you know what? Hyundai is doing the same thing at the bottom end of the market to the Japanese. The Sonata has been getting better and better, to basically equal the Japanese competition in quality & reliability, while maintaining a significant price advantage.

    Face it, not everyone (or even most people) that buy a BMW 7 series do it because it is a driver's (or "performance") vehicle. They do so because it is big and luxurious and has a good name. And guess what? That's the same reason a lot of people will buy a Lexus. Add "less expensive" and "more reliable" into the mix, and you can see why the LS is a compelling option, not just for S-Class buyers, but for 7-series buyers as well.

    Fair disclosure: I drive an Audi (an A3, mind you, not an A8, which my budget will not yet allow for), before anyone accuses me of being a "Lexus-lover" or something like that.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The LS does NOT need any paper listing of features to dethrone the 7 and S. It already did, 15 of the last 17 years.... Get it ?

    Yes I get it. Lower priced luxury items usually sell at greater volume.

    It will be interesting to see how Hyundai's new RWD H.E.L.M. will sell? A luxury Hyundai may be ridiculed at first but may end up selling at the highest volume because of its price. Does that not sound familiar to the Lexus LS, especially 16 years ago?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Lower priced luxury items usually sell at greater volume."

    This is all the more true when they are equal or better and are more reliable after five years than a brand new one from the competition.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This is all the more true when they are equal or better

    The LS is more reliable. Equal or better? Is that so? Supply and demand dictates otherwise! If the LS was equal or better than all the offerings from German marques then they would be faced with the same situation Jaguar is faced with today.

    Everybody here can have an opinion which car is better. But in the end markets dictate the truth.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    So it has to drive someone out of business to be better. Wow.
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