Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1245246248250251463

Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Don't have time to dig up your posts but I remember very well you saying you loved the GS and had to have the car and that was after you drove it several times. If I remember right it was the lower Bimmer price and more comfortable seat - hardly performance issues - that got you in the 545. That's why I hardly take your recent posts seriously. It's you just trying to wrankle some folks and have fun.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    All of the comments from the German guys that Lexus some how doesnt have the "right" to exist as a luxury car company because of Toyota are rediculous. The EXACT same thing could be said about Audi and VW. Furthermore, just because of the fact that a company like Mercedes builds all of their vehicles under one badge doesnt make them "better" or more righteous than any other automaker. Mercedes builds commercial trucks, and of course the cheapie A-class and B-class, cars that, if on sale in the US, would compete with Toyotas.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    When I slam a vehicle, I make sure I have driven it several times. What can I say? I didn't feel the LS was worth $60k+. I had an open mind about it and wanted to like it but didn't due to the reasons I have previously posted.

    Open mind, eh ? OK... I'll grant you that. But what did you expect if you've been driving a 3-series for 12 years and suddenly test drive a GS430 and an LS430 ???? These cars are not even remotely close to what a 3-series is. I am curious what you'd expect the GS and LS to drive like, since these cars are mid- to large-sized sedans, with little to no sporting pretensions relative to a small, compact 3-series.... I don't see a 3-er driver kicking the tires of a GS/LS and coming out raving about how they drive... not gonna happen...

    Like Bush and Chavez ??? Eekkkeee, u must not like me at all... Why ???
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Mercedes builds commercial trucks, and of course the cheapie A-class and B-class, cars that, if on sale in the US, would compete with Toyotas.

    MB also builds zillions of cheapie C, E and S cars that litter the roads of Europe as taxi-cabs. You can see plenty of them at European airports... I've ridden in many of them on business trips. I suggest some of you German fans take a trip to Europe and see things for yourself about your MB, BMW and Audi cars on taxi cab ranks... If MB sells any of these cheapie ones here, there luxury marque brand name will suffer greatly in brand-conscious America... They are no different from Toyota, but you won't find the Celsior (LS430) on every street corner in Tokyo as a taxi cab. You'll find the Celsior taxi/limo at the high-end hotels, like you'll find some S500 or Maybach.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    An overpriced Toyota, eh ? Good one. But I thought you wanted to give the car a spin, No ? Now it appears you are bitter against it, slaming it. Won't be the first time a German fan has called all Lexus vehicles as over-priced Toyota.... Now Lexus (ehm, overpriced Toyota) is the #1 selling luxury nameplate in America. Good for them...

    We've been over this before, but both BMW and MB blow Lexus away in US car sales. (2005 Sales: BMW=197k / MB=183k / Lexus=151k)

    The RX330, by itself, sold over 100k units last year. In fact, Lexus actually sold more SUVs last year than cars..... However, BMW sold more X5s than Lexus did their GX470 (37k to 34k).

    Total sales, of course, pushes Lexus up to 300k, BMW to 266k, and MB to 224k.

    So, really, if you take only one vehicle out of the entire Lexus equation (RX330), things are entirely different and the results quite flip-flopped. Interesting to think about...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    We've been over this before, but both BMW and MB blow Lexus away in US car sales...

    #1 Luxury Nameplate in America... And you come back with car sales... So a nameplate is only about cars ??? Yep, German car fans discount anything that doesn't advance their argument... like it doesn't exist, eh ?

    Take away RX330/400h sales to reduce Lexus sales #s, eh ? Yep... Since it will advance the point you are trying to make, which doesn't hold water, as you yourself proved with the ~40K lead in sales over the nearest BMW competitor.

    BTW, how many of the 266K cars/SUVs from BMW were 3-er sales ??? So why not take away the 3-series # and see where that leaves BMW in total sales ???
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    #1 Luxury Nameplate in America... And you come back with car sales... So a nameplate is only about cars ??? Yep, German car fans discount anything that doesn't advance their argument... like it doesn't exist, eh ? Pls count the SUVs as well, afterall they are badged as their other car siblings.

    My point was that it was interesting to note that if you simply removed the RX330, Lexus' standing is much different.... Try not to take that as an insult. I'm just pointing out the numbers.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't recall ever saying I loved the GS.
    I do remember at the time saying the steering was wishy-washy, the brakes were too grabby and I couldn't get comfortable in the driver's seat.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    How bout we take the 3-series off of BMW and see how things look. Very silly argument that doesn't hold water and actually exposes stupid management decisions by the Germans to miss the biggest growth segment in automotive history.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    A high-end luxury performance sedan certainly has the credentials to be a HELM, but so does a sumptuous cruising barge, IMO. The argument that one and only one can claim bragging rights is pointless. The perfect garage would certainly contain some GREAT performance vehicles and ALSO some GREAT CRUISERS . . . at least MINE would.
    TagMan
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    How bout we take the 3-series off of BMW and see how things look. Very silly argument that doesn't hold water and actually exposes stupid management decisions by the Germans to miss the biggest growth segment in automotive history.

    Oh wait, those are just "poseur-mobiles", as someone said before. (previous post)... so I shouldn't have even counted those in the first place...
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I was only kidding about Bush and Chavez. Isn't that what the ;) meant?

    I really did try and like the GS 430 but it didn't meet my expectations. As a matter of fact, I stated that the GS300 handled better but I wanted a more powerful engine.

    True: I did get the 545 for less than the GS430 (about $25 a month less) and I did say the BMW comfort seat was better than the GS' drivers' seat, but if the GS outhandled the 545, knowing me, I would have shelled out for the GS.
    The way a car drives is still #1 with me and $25 a month is almost insignificant to me.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "...actually exposes stupid management decisions by the Germans to miss the biggest growth segment in automotive history."

    Actually, MB, Porsche, Audi and BMW are desperately trying to catch up to the market. From the X3/X5, Cayenne/Touareg, to the GL, followed by the Q7, and then a me-too R-class clone from BMW. Pretty soon, all the Germans would be band-wagonning on SUVs and minivans..... What would die-hard, car enthusiasts then think of their fav German brand ???
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You had to make me go look. Now I feel like an attorney on "Close to Home".

    2390 of 2808 Re: No GS 430 for me [maxhonda99] by hpowders Jun 06, 2005 (3:37 pm)
    Bookmark | Reply | E-mail Msg
    Replying to: maxhonda99 (Jun 06, 2005 2:47 pm)

    Thanks for putting some sanity into all this. I'm not a reckless driver and I do mostly highway driving so hopefully I can get more than 15k out of those tires.
    I just got another nice lease offer and I do believe I will take them up on it.
    I love the GS430.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Manipulating numbers doesn't compare apples to apples. A fairer comparison is certainly a comparison that either includes ALL vehices by manufacturers in a specific market, or CERTAIN vehicles in a specific market, but NOT ALL vehicles against CERTAIN vehicles. Further, these numbers can be manipulated to paint very different results. Imagine Ford's numbers without the F-Series trucks. Certainly different.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The problem initially was that I asked the dealer for a GS430 test drive but he mistakenly gave me the GS300 and my impression was a positive one so I wrote a positive review on the car. I thought it was the 430 but contradictory posts soon followed after that because I drove the REAL GS430 several times after that and definitely posted that I had serious issues with the steering and brakes.
    I maintain to this day that the GS300 is a better car than the GS430. If only it had more power.

    Honest mistake: the dealer slipped me a GS300, not a GS430! He probably didn't have a 430 at that time for me to drive.
    Definitely not mea culpa!
    I am a victim of circumstance and I will not retract my nomination to the US Supreme Court. ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I love the GS430.

    hpowders,
    Looks like you've been pinned! ljflx has most definately nailed you. Just admit you suffered from temporary insanity already, and that was your frame of mind at that moment in time. The bigger question is ... have you recovered? ;)
    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    See the post directly above yours. Wasn't my fault. I never loved the REAL GS430!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    really? You said you LOVED something.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There is a procedure from Automobile magazine that lets the driver turn off VSC in a GS, explained here. Maybe you bimmaniacs can try it out the next time you take a GS for a test drive.

    Road test coordinator Marc Noordeloos performed the complicated procedure, took a test drive, and, while grinning from ear to ear, pronounced the car transformed.

    Someday there might be a simple switch so that the "driving dynamics" crowd can simply turn the thing off.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I liked the GS300 quite a bit. Handled decently. Good brakes and steering. Problem was I thought it was the GS430.
    I drove the real GS430 two times after that and I knew the first car obviously wasn't the 430.
    I then asked to drive the GS300 and sure enough I realized the first dealer slipped me a GS300.
    I guess on seeing my disheveled appearance (hot Florida day), the first dealer could have assumed the 430 was out of my league.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That would be a welcome addition. I'm sure Lexus is well aware of the criticism.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I understand all that, but ljflx has raised an interesting point here. Whatever you might have THOUGHT it was, you nonetheless LOVED it (apparently the GS300 !).
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In all honesty how on earth can a performance oriented car driver not tell the difference between the two cars. It takes all of about 10 seconds of driving. I know - I drove both.

    Now you are really looking bad. This wasn't your only indication of love or desire for the car - so take tagmans advice. Plus you were getting ready to pay GS430 prices for a GS3??
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    There is a procedure from Automobile magazine that lets the driver turn off VSC in a GS

    Useless procedure, given that generally only "Lexus" drivers will be behind the wheel of a Lexus anyway. In fact, disabling the VSC could endanger a "Lexus" driver's life! Attention Lexus drivers . . . NEVER try this at home...this procedure to be performed by professional BMW drivers only.

    (OK, just kidding . . . don't get like oac and have a stroke)

    :D
    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yes, yes, bimmanics are superior human beings.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Syswei - they don't even know which cars they are driving.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I thought the GS300 was a better car to drive than the GS430 and the LS430.
    It needs a better driver's seat and a bigger engine.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Of course not. I drove 2 GS430's after the GS300.
    The dealer made me the offer after driving the second GS430, but I had issues with the brakes, steering and driver's seat.
    It was a good offer but since I didn't jump at it, how in love with the GS430 could I have been?
    If I did love the car, the dealer never would have made me that offer in the first place.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    OK, just kidding . . . don't get like oac and have a stroke

    I know you were kidding, but why use me as the poster child for Lexus ? And I will let you know that I love sporty cars, for now, family needs dictate my car needs. Once the kids are off to College, I plan on something a lot more fun. I have said that repeatedly on this forum.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Come on. It was early in the morning in the Florida summer. Hot, muggy, EARLY!
    At least I realized a little later that it wasn't the GS430.
    The guy wasn't trying to sell me a GS300 for a GS430 price.
    Simple miscommunication. Hey it happens.

    After all this grilling, I don't even get the supreme court seat.
    Geesh!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I test drove the GS300 back to back with an M35 and wrote my review in the LPS forum. While the GS was a great car, I found the M35 a tad better in driving. Duh ! But the GS430 was a totally different beast. That car is a whole lotta different animal from the GS300. You gotta know like 10s, just like Len said. The speed and handling of the GS430 is a lot better than the GS300. I am actualy shocked you liked the GS300 with its slow footed, longer throw tranny, and not very inspiring handling. The GS430 is a worthy competitor to the Bimmer except that the auto rags continue to rag on it due to a lack of a *kill switch* for the VDIM. Not that anyone drives like a maniac on the roads to need a kill-switch for VDIM, or do Bimmer fans always drive like they are on race tracks all the time ? I see more poseur Bimmer owners than real BMW *drivers*, here in San Diego. BMWs, like Lexus, are everywhere.... Everyone and their dog seem to have one.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Grilling over - you get the job - new sales director of Lexus in Florida.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I found that the GS430 had wishy-washy adaptive steering which at times seemed quite a bit over-boosted whereas the GS300 had more consistant steering. Also, the brakes on the GS430 (brakes by wire?) were disturbingly grabby. I couldn't bring the vehicle to a well-modulated stop. I did not have this problem with the GS300.
    All in all, too much "innovative interference" on the GS430 for me.
    The VDIM switch was a non-issue for me.
    I drive fast but I'm not suicidal.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Excellent! While I would be paid extremely well for talking up Lexus, I would be using some of that cash to get a Porsche 911.
    I would park it in the back of Lexus Florida Corporate.
    Believe me, Lexus needs no help in Florida.
    There are almost as many Lexi down here as man-eating 'gators.
    What am I doing here?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I find it a joke that hpowders is being grilled for what he said about the GS. Isn't it quite funny that the Lexicans here are not being grilled for what they said in prior posts about Bangle design.

    Now that Toyota/Lexus is emulating Bangle all of a sudden Lexicans are united in thier admiration for the Bangle curves of their upcoming LS460.

    I hereby declare that all Lexicans should be put on trial based on their anti Bangle posts from prior years.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What am I doing here?

    How about - Enjoying the sun.

    I was just down in Sarasota on business a month ago when it was freezing up here. But I stayed in Tampa at the Renaissance Vinoy. Great hotel. It was 84. Came home to a snowstorm in NY and asked the same question to myself.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Now that Toyota/Lexus is emulating Bangle all of a sudden Lexicans are united in thier admiration for the curvacious Bangle design of their upcoming LS460"

    How about - We don't see the resemblance. But I guess the big 7 is a big Camry to many of you if that's what you see though.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So, doesn't that mean that higher prestige is "worth" something?

    Yes! But if you are trying to suggest that a LS is equal to a MB S, forget it! Prestige is reflected in price premiums but prestige also has to be earned with good engineering and design. As I said before if the only advantage MB S has over the Lexus LS is prestige then MB S would be in the same dire consequences as Jaguar is right now.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    First off, this is a truly weak excuse for the S. I have said repeatedly, and Merc1 also agreed, the LS costs less bcos it is produced more efficiently at a lower cost. Conversely, the S costs more becos it is produced at a higher cost. Except if you are asking MB to sell its high-end marque cars at steep losses... to match the LS in price. This is an MB problem, not Lexus'...

    Completely disagree!

    MB is not as cost efficient as Toyota just as Toyota is not as cost efficient as Hyundai. This is not about cost efficiency but about how highly MB is perceived relative to the LS and the willingness of buyers to pay bigger bucks for an equivalent MB.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The similarity will have a positive impact on the sales of the Camry and a negative impact on the sales of the LS."

    Good luck with that prediction on the LS.


    I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Unlike say.. the Acura RL, the LS460 really is not a big Camry.

    How many buyers of a RL know that they are driving a car with the same platform of an Accord? Certainly not a majority. The RL does look distinct from the current Accord and most buyers can easily be fooled.

    How many potential buyers of a Lexus LS460 will know that the Camry and a Lexus LS have different platforms when both look so much alike? Certainly not a majority.

    Oh yes we forum members can look beyond the pretty styling of any car and view its chassis and drivetrain with X-ray vision. But the majority of buyers outside this forum lack our X-ray vision and cannot look beneath the skin of a car. The majority of buyers will be swayed primarily by appearances and that is the key liability of having a LS resemble a oversized Camry .
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Then go bet someone but make sure you hedge yourself because you're going to need to. The car is a guaranteed big hit with a lot of staying power. Plus the 600H is going to be snapped up by the high end entertainment crowd big time and the Lexus status bar is going way up.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If the LS460 was a stock I would be doing a lot of naked call writing in the options market.

    Only time will tell!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I like Sarasota. Charming town.
    Lot's of Lexi there, that's for sure.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Only time will tell!

    For you. I have no doubts.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    MB is not as cost efficient as Toyota just as Toyota is not as cost efficient as Hyundai. This is not about cost efficiency but about how highly MB is perceived relative to the LS and the willingness of buyers to pay bigger bucks for an equivalent MB.

    If buyers are willing to pay bigger bucks for the S why does the LS continually trounce the S in sales YoY for the last 5 yrs running ? Hmmmm.... could it be bcos they are NOT willing to pay bigger bucks, especially where there is a very comparable or better car in the LS ???

    I gave you an example of the LC v LX470. Loaded, a 2006 LX470 retails for $70K. A loaded 2006 LC retails for $60K, a $10K difference. Yet, the higher priced LX470 sells more units than the lower priced LC. Meaning: people will pay for quality. There is a real quality difference b/w these two trucks. If the S430/500 are that much better than the LS, people will gladly pay the higher price, and MB should sell lots more than the cheaper LS.

    Finally, let's do a comparison: How many variants of MB sedans are there v Lexus models ? How many sales of MB cars/SUVs v Lexus cars/SUVs ? How many MB dealerships v Lexus dealerships ???
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!

    No, dewey, it's going to stay carbonated for years to come, although, there's been some sort of chatter about bad transmissions and hesitation issues in the Lexus and Toyota counterparts. Hmmm, maybe there's a slight hairline crack in the Lexus reputation?
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    You know, I would like to comment on some of these posts, but by the time I find the time to read them all, I have to go do something else in my "real" non-electronic life.

    Do you folks realize the volume of messages you are all posting? This forum has been running for just over 6 years, and for those first 6 years there were an average of just over 2000 messages per year (BTW, merc1 had 2 of the first 10). Since January 1st of this year, there have been 722 posts in just 13 days - that's the equivalent of over 20,000 posts per year, or over 10 times the previous rate of posting.

    So if that's the quantitative analysis, how about a qualitative analysis? Does anyone believe that the rantings about the "barge-like" qualities of the LS, or the failure of the BMW 7 to be a true HELM, or the superiority of the LS being proven by its sales (as opposed to sales showing that the LS better captures what the American public wants in a car than the S does), or - perhaps what IMHO will be the worst prediction ever made on this board - that the new LS will fail in the marketplace after the first year*, really add anything to our shared knowledge about luxury cars?

    How about this as a New Year's resolution for 2006: let's shoot for less quantity and more quality!

    *Dewey, I hope your stock picks are better than your auto sales projections! Do you really think that by fall 2007 LS will no longer be the sales leader in this segment? If so, I'll take that wager with you - you choose the amount.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Land Cruiser sales are really hurt by the Sequoia, which outsells it almost 10 to 1. People go into a Toyota showroom and choose the cheaper, bigger and almost as luxurious Sequoia over the Land Cruiser.

    The LX470 doesn't have a Sequoia equivalent sitting next to it taking away sales. There's a reason why Lexus is planning to replace the LX altogether with a Sequoia based JX470.
Sign In or Register to comment.