High End Luxury Cars

hpowders · January 2006

Well there is no doubt that Lexus tries very hard to provide one of the top upscale dealership experiences in the USA.
The second salesman I dealt with last summer who actually got the vehicle right and let me drive the car I asked to drive, the GS430, was the best salesman I ever had the pleasure to meet.
Compared to him, the BMW people I have encountered have a long way to go.
He had encyclopedic knowledge of the car but was totally relaxed with no sales pressure.
I was so impressed, I sent him a referral and he closed a deal on the GS430 with that person, even though I didn't.
When the new LS 460 comes out, I will be calling him for a test drive, that's for sure.

hpowders · January 2006

Thank you. I find the sociology of marketing a fascinating topic.

syswei · January 2006

Well, since the GS wasn't sporty enough for you, you are going to shock us all if you someday buy an LS.

hpowders · January 2006

I plan on driving the new LS because I consider it a prerequisite for me to write on this board.

I plan on driving the A8 too. Curious to experience the Audi dealership treatment.

The GS430 had adaptive steering which I couldn't "adapt" to and grabby brakes.
I did really want to like that car. Major disappointment, last summer. And I really did like that salesman.

lexusguy · January 2006

I actually agree with you on this one. Active steering and E-brakes are things Lexus should not have copied from the Germans.

hpowders · January 2006

The GS300 is actually more fun to drive because it has normal brakes and steering. Just needs a more powerful engine which I guess they will be addressing pretty soon.

syswei · January 2006

Lexus could have put the 3.5 in already but wants to "save" it for use as a midlife kicker for the GS. The customer suffers.

scott1256 · January 2006

Toyota has a very high, almost iconic status in Japan.

Toyota Crown models were the ultra prestige cars in Japan for years. I believe there have even been V-12 Crowns (somebody can correct me if I am wrong).

The switch from Toyota to Lexus in Japan will be tough.

hpowders · January 2006

Too bad because that was the only thing that turned me off to the GS300.
I previously mentioned the driver's seat not being very comfortable but at 6'2", this is usually a problem across the board.
I believe the only car I had no issue with the seat and legroom was my much lamented, dark maroon 1967 Impala.

oac · January 2006

Designman:

I'll break this synopsis into two sections. First will be a timeline capsule of the LS400.... Second (later post) will be the creation of the LS. Happy reading.

Timeline Capsule of the LS400

08/1983: Toyota Chairman decides it's time for a luxury arm for the company.

05/1985: Design team and study team are put together in the US.

07/1985: A running LS400 prototype is made

05/1986: Autobahn testing began

09/1986: More testing on US roads

05/1987: Final approval for LS400 design from management

01/1989: At the Detroit and LA auto shows

09/1989: LS400 goes on sale

01/1990: Named C&D 10 Best

02/1990: Named Best Imported Car of the Year (Motoring Press Assoc)

oac · January 2006

"In 1989 when Toyota introduced this car to America as a 1990 model, the automotive press thought it didn't have a chance against the likes of Mercedes and BMW. Toyota knew how to build great economy cars and small family sedans but this is the big league. Jokes circulated about this folly, one of which I remember on a TV drama where a car thief who specialized in stealing expensive cars pulled up with a Lexus. When his partner saw him and gave him a look, he said "it was dark, I thought it was a Mercedes." As a matter of fact, the only LS400 that I have ever known to break down was in the 1991 movie "The Grand Canyon" starring Danny Glover (a movie I otherwise highly recommend.)

Well, it took less then a year for everyone in the automotive industry to change their attitude and give this car the respect it deserved. Lexus became the standard by which other cars are judged. Only the Mercedes S Class and the BMW 7 Series could rightly claim to be better cars. But they cost $10,000 to $20,000 more than the Lexus LS400 which had a starting price of under $38,000 in 1990."

Read the whole article http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/Lexus1stGen/Lexus1stGen.htm

ljflx · January 2006

There have been so many stories and in fact, many business case studies on how Toyota pulled this off starting back in 1982 or 83. The Lexus book is just one of them that gives the details. Some of the other indepedent articles heap a lot more praise on the company than anything they could write themselves. Some of the details include the design and development of the robotics that were used to build the Lexus models to the sophisticated factories and the specialization techniques used in the choosing of employees, auto parts etc that would fit the development of such a high end car. The precision used to build this car was the highest in the industry from the get go. This was a design from scratch investment and buildout of the initial car models and the planned future models, none of which were anything like Toyota had built before. The entire car design was set-up to fit the US market as the primary market and the Japanese market as a secondary. Europe was never even a thought. The reason the Lexus name wasn't used in Japan is due to local political issues and the pressures of the existing dealership network already established. Most, if not all Toyota dealers in Japan sell the high end Toyotas which came to market at the same time as the US Lexus models in a differently partitioned showroom or a different floor altogether than the more economical models. It is a cast system there and the service to the wealthier crowd mimics the difference here between Lexus service and Toyota service. The reason for the change to the Lexus name now in Japan is due to the global rollout of Lexus as a brand.

There's a synopsis, the rest can be found in many business books and articles written since 1990. I'm sure some of it found its way into college textbooks.

tagman · January 2006

Reading the Lexus synopsis was fine, but you should also check out the history of Mercedes Benz sometime. I'll save you the "copy/paste" and won't place it here.

On a side note, there is one little slice of Mercedes Benz that is an ICON for all time. It was (and still is, although "modernized"):
one of the most famous and fabulous FRONT GRILLS OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b
I will always admire it!

TagMan

oac · January 2006

I couldn't write the synopsis any better. Great job, Len... and thanks for helping out.

Well, Designman, between the timeline capsule and the synopsis from Len, you get the picture... The rest of the research is up to you, if indeed you'd like to know more

scott1256 · January 2006

sedan is the Century, not the Crown: sorry about that.

The Century with options can top the $100,000 mark in Japan. It has a vvti 48 valve V-12 and very formal body style. See the picture and specs at thus link.

http://www.cars-directory.net/specs/toyota/century/2001_5/5837/

designman · January 2006

Thank you Oac and Ljflx for that response. Ljflx, I am guessing that your mention of Lexus info in business books and college text books alludes to them as a business model.

On another note, I really like the styling of the Toyota Century and lament the fact that no company is choosing to pursue and preserve that classic look. Its all about trying to create the future these days and the only thing they wind up with is ephemeral fashion, most of which fails miserably. What a shame. I welcome the manifest destiny of technology but we cannot throw Shakespeare, Rembrandt and Beethoven into the trash. Impossible, they are immortal. Likewise, I would like to see certain distinct elements of classic styling preserved. It would seem this should fall into the hands of HELMs first, but it isnt happening. You have no idea how disappointed I am in the styling of most cars today.

scott1256 · January 2006

I agree with you. A car blending current technology with classic styling would find a market niche in the USA.

If Lincoln offered a modern version of their 1961-67 Continental (including the 4-door convertible) their showrooms would be busy!

lexusguy · January 2006

What I'd like to see, is Jag do a modern version of the XK150. It is in my opinion, the best looking Jag of all time, and one of the best looking cars ever made.

designman · January 2006

Agree. So cool. I had one of those in my Aurora slot car set circa 1960.

scott1256 · January 2006

Will Porsche keep these margins once the Panamera sedan becomes part of the line?

From article in Forbes about German manufacturers: worth a read.

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/2006/01/13/volkswagen-bmw-germany_cz_jf_05germa- - - ny40_0117flint.html

michael_mattox · January 2006

It would seem to me that the most rational way to look at these sales numbers given this the the Luxury Marque thread is the S vrs 700 series vrs LS...compairing total sales in North America(since that is where most of us live.)

Anyone have those Numbers? U.S. only or N. America

tagman · January 2006

Great article! Really points to many of the great strengths, convictions and attitudes (borderline arrogance) of the German manufacturers. The die-hard Lexus fans should read it, especially where it acknowledges Toyota's attempts at building a BMW for years. Thanks again.

TagMan

ctsang · January 2006

The Toyota Century is so exclusive that not everyone can buy one. I know someone who tried and was told only royalty can qualify.

tagman · January 2006

The Toyota Century has a reasonably nice looking interior, based upon the photos, but not incredible by any means. The exterior, however, looks like a stretched out old Ford Grenada . . . nothing impressive about it. Is this a "cultural" thing? Does it actually look attractive to Japanese people? Also, please explain what could possibly make it so exclusive?

scott1256 · January 2006

I can think of one reason the Century is so exclusive: in Japan's conformist society it really stands out.

As well, the Century is the choice of many succesful business executives and politicians in high office. People see a Century and think 'that must be someone famous'.

lexusguy · January 2006

The interior of the Crown Majesta is MUCH MUCH nicer.

http://toyota.images.free.fr/images/japon/toyota/2004_crown_majesta_2.jpg

The Mark X is also very nice inside.

http://toyota.images.free.fr/images/japon/toyota/2005_mark-x_2.jpg

designman · January 2006

Those interiors are really nice. I love that low forward sweep. I don't get it, why not on the US cars?

ljflx · January 2006

"Thank you Oac and Ljflx for that response. Ljflx, I am guessing that your mention of Lexus info in business books and college text books alludes to them as a business model."

Yes. The emphasis of course is on a manufacturing business model. But many elements from a desire and goal to sweep qualitative awards within a short period of time for brand recognition and establishing precision and quality from the more expensive buildout to the more economical buildouts in order to distance the quality of those products (in this case cars of course) from the competion can be utilized in any industry. This is why I was saying last night that the real flow here was from Lexus to Toyota - not the other way around. Business stories I've read like to deal with the details and the step by step execution of a truly long-term plan in dealing with the Lexus achievement as a blueprint for other new product development efforts.

ljflx · January 2006

Tagman,

read the article and from my standpoint the arrogance will hurt them long-term unless they adjust to market conditions which will be different across the globe. In the end the customer dictates what the manufacturer will do once there is sufficient competition in the market. There is much more competition than ever and it will increase a lot further from here. Arrogance works in monopoly or near monopoly situations but serious competition changes arrogance quiclky as can be seen by the cupholders, power windows and many other features they were reluctant to put in the cars. This fits any industry and sooner or later everyone is humbled. I don't view that arrogance as an asset, I view it as a large liability.

Different industry topic but here's a good story on German copanies in todays NY times. Enjoy and by the way I have a great amount of respect for how Germany and German businesses unified the extreme differences between East and West Germany in such a short period of time. Tremendous achievement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/business/worldbusiness/17comeback.html?adxnnl=- - - 1&adxnnlx=1137550442-XNiuRnGO7laIgZO+to0Iew

tagman · January 2006

ljflx,
The article about Heidelberg was most interesting to me. Thank you. My company utilizes Heidelberg equipment in our production facility. I will share with you a brief story about the reason we use genuine German Heidelberg equipment and not, say, Ryobi, or other Japanese equipment. Years ago, during one of our expansion and upgrade phases of our company, we purchased some Japanese equipment. It might have satisfied some, but our standards were VERY high in terms of quality. Ultimately, we rid ourselves of the equipment and purchased Heidelberg. The difference in quality was very real. I realize that printing equipment is not the same as an automobile, but I will tell you that there are very few pieces of industrial equipment that require the machined precision as that of a large commercial printing press. I will not take the room here on this post to explain, but believe me, the tolerances are every bit as much and MORE than an automobile and its engine. Price tags are seven digits and up. When we got to another point in time for another upgrade, we looked at the latest from Japan again, and the automation and technology was incredible, but once again the Japanese machinery was not as precise as the German machinery. Does this have anything to do with cars? Maybe. Maybe not. But I do know first hand every day what those German machines can do, and what those Japanese competitors can't do . . . under some of the most rigorous requirements you could ever imagine.

Arrogance hurts, of course, but the genius lies elsewhere, and it still shines through . . . sometimes as bright as the sun itself. Thanks again.

TagMan

lexusguy · January 2006

Unfortunately, many Japanese cars have much better interiors than their US equivalents. Their Maxima:

http://www.nissan.co.nz/images/vehicle/maxima/gallery/9b.jpg

Our Maxima:

http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/images/nissan_maxima_review_int.jpg

rodut · January 2006

Does somebody has reasons to believe that the 1999 Mercedes S320 would be a decent reliability car ?

I am very concerned about the 2000-2005 reliability record, and wonder if the previous model (1997-1999) was a simpler, so more reliable car.

Thanks

michael_mattox · January 2006

Designman:

If I had a nice Chysler and someone called it a Mercedes I would be darn mad.

scott1256 · January 2006

The same is true for some industrial equipment.

Lathes, milling machines, lasers, etc: the German stuff is top shelf if you are willing to pay the price.

scott1256 · January 2006

I am not sure how well the Lexus name will be received in Japan.

For 50+ years the most prestigious cars in Japan have been Toyotas. All the cars sold here under the Lexus name are Toyotas in Japan.

Note: I have no idea why Mercedes launched a new brand name for their top luxury cars. Maybach is a flop: it reminds me of the 'new Coke' fiasco.

ljflx · January 2006

Given that it will be known and marketed as a higher end product from the same company it is practically a sureshot to get sky high recognition.

lexusi · January 2006

Well, century is the car toyota build to show its power, you have to be famous to order one (like special editions ferrari) they simply wont sell you one if you are not loyal and really want the car. In Japan, if someone have a century then everybody say watch out, keep away from him, becoz those guys have power. And BTW it cost 150K$

Now, to the technical part, Toyota manager gave me a DVD that show how they car is built and tested, its just amazing!! its a 12V, 5 L engine, super super smooth, it evens beat Lexus LS for smoothness!! the engine is fixed on a mobile system that absorb shocks and vibration (like the LS but more advanced), and you saw the interior, what amazing is this, the car is hand-made, it is fully customized, even the wood is hand polished, the chrome and so, it like a RR with better quality, it has the latest technology, and they test every car for 100 KM, they even use a stethoscope to check for the wind noise and so!! every delivered car have a booklet, this booklet includes all the names of the workers, with details about each one work and so, so if any thing goes wrong they know who is resposible, it even have the pic of each worker!!

Well, concerning how it looks, yes it isnt flashy, but this is how they wanted it to be, you know, all those that own it want it this way, its a politician car not a POP singer car!! its conservative but elegant, it has the latest tech but it is tradational, this is the Japanese soul car. One more amazing thing, there is a bird like sign in front of the car and inside it, ITS HAND MADE, they carve it and gold plate it and polish it!!!

This car is just amazing, its a car you have to respect

Lexusi

syswei · January 2006

I wonder if the 5-liter v12 as as modern as the 4.6-liter v8 in the LS. My guess is that the 4.6 will beat the v12 hp and torque-wise.

lexusguy · January 2006

The interior still looks like it was designed circa 1992.

scott1256 · January 2006

That is a safe bet, Syswei: Japanese car manufacturers voluntarily limit their HP in the home market.

I believe the voluntary limit is currently 288 HP.

lexusguy · January 2006

Actually, everybody stopped kidding themselves about that a few years ago. GT-Rs and special edition WRX STi's were listed as "278hp" when in actuality they were hitting well over 300.

scott1256 · January 2006

I wonder what the real HP of the Century V-12 is, then?

It is listed at 288 HP.

lexusguy · January 2006

It may actually be that. I'm pretty sure its an old engine.

ljflx · January 2006

They almost put that engine in as an option on the 2001 LS so I'm sure the HP is a lot greater.

scott1256 · January 2006

The Century V-12 has 48 valves and Vvti technology: it can't be too ancient.

lexusguy · January 2006

Apparently the current Century was released in 1997, and the 1GZ-FE V-12 engine has not changed since then. The exterior hasnt changed much since 1967.

lexusi · January 2006

This new century was released as a 50 years anniversery for toyota's first production car

blckislandguy · January 2006

This morning's Journal has a half page ad touting a 2.9% interest rate for Mercedes Certified Pre-Owned C, E, and S Class cars. Trouble is, its a deal for status insecure suckers. The fine print way at the bottom limits the CPO warranty to one year. Wow! Thats a real vote of confidence in the quality of the product and the reconditioning effort later put into it.

Kind of reminds me of April, 1970 when the 101st was told to hold Hill 927 at all cost: "Mens(sic), I'll be right there with you" said the base camp NCOs.

syswei · January 2006

available here

rayng · January 2006

Is the Century or any other Japanese luxury car collectible? While the S8 or S65 will likely be coveted when we retire (im 35), will the LS4xx? I can imagine a demand for the 95 Legend GS but not any of the Infinitis. Thoughts?

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