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"The first of the new models to go on sale in the U.S. will be the S550, expected in February, followed by the S450 and S600 in April 2006."
Mercedes offering wooden steering wheels is nothing new. They've offered this option on certain models since the 1992 600SEL.
M
M
Lexus does like to keep the number of variants down, but only 4 trims total between the 3 cars? My guess is more like 6. Plus the prices seem too high, I think a loaded 600hL will be under 100k.
For 100 large, what would you buy? S, LS, or ?
Well . . . earlier in the month I predicted success for the new S-Class, and expressed only one reservation . . . the price, after adding all options.
So . . . to answer your question, I would without hesitation choose the Mercedes S-Class over the Lexus, unless there was a MAJOR price difference. By major, I mean all features as close to equal as possible and the retail price being 25 percent cheaper for the Lexus. At that level, I might consider it. MAYBE. At similar price levels for comparable vehicles, I would personally NEVER choose a Lexus over a Mercedes. But that's just my personal and honest preference. I know some will disgree.
Heck, I also believe that history and hindsight will show that the current gorgeous (and more reliable) Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas can be purchased at a bargain price right at this very moment (due to obvious issues at Jaguar).
TagMan
Clearly sales are off because of the hangover effect of the old reliability issues, no AWD, lingering vestiges of the feeling that it is not uber enough of a sedan for a Fortune 500 CEO (Accordingly, all CEO wannabes who run say the local lumberyard chain in Peoria are going to lust over only an S Class), and some bad marketing by Jag.
I think its mostly Jaguar's horrendous quality issues in the late '80s and early '90s before Ford stepped that are the cause of the terrible residuals. That, and the lousy sales and press about the X and S certainly arent doing anything to help the brand.
The XJ is a very competent driver, but when it comes to fancy features, it cant even measure up to the current gen LS and the Germans, and cant hold a candle to the LS460 and S550. In the full-size lux class, fancy features count almost as much as the actual act of moving down the road, and the Jag just cant hack it in that area. The interior designers also majorly dropped the ball, and it looks too much like the old car.
For 100 large, what would you buy? S, LS, or ?
With $100 large, which car to buy ?? Good question. For one, at $100K, MB will need the S600 to compete against a 500HP (est), 30MPG (est), LWB, hybrid-AWD super lux sedan in the LS600h. Even then, the LS would be cheaper than the S600 by at least $10K. At that price, name brand is a HUGE factor, giving MB a leg up, but Lexus is no longer chop-liver in this space. They have shown a determination to go for the high-end of the market, and we'll see how the new LS variants turn out. Early reviews are all good. But no one has tested the car yet, so its all premature. But I'd wager a tough battle ahead for BMW and MB going against the new LS models. For my money, if I have $100K to splurg on a lux sedan, it will be the LS600H, no doubt about that. The S is a great car and all, but Lexus is just a tiny weenie bit better, IMO.
Lexus strategy from what I've been told is 30-70 SWB to LWB in year one, 50-50 in year two and 65-35 LWB over SWB in year three.
I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble figuring out why I would need the LWB version of the LS. To me, it is only relevant to the chauffeur-driven executive. As it is now, the back seat of the LS has plenty of leg room for normal adults. Heck, this is why I wanted out of my E-class.
Who the heck are you carrying in back that needs to have a leg rest, etc.? I love my kids and my business partners, but not enough to treat them like potentates.
I don't want a land yacht. All I want is an AWD version the size of the current model. It's plenty big enough already. Just make it look better, fill it with cool toys that work, and perhaps drive just a touch better - and then sell it for just under $60K out the door (more if you want the rear seat area gussied up). 65% LWB? Why would 2/3rds of buyers want that?
Ok, just exactly which fancy features are you talking about, because the current all-aluminum XJ Vanden Plas has an enormous list of ALL the usual amenities, as well as the more recently fashionable ones such as wireless Bluetooth technology, touch-screen navigation, voice-command system, high-end surround sound audio w/ subwoofer, independent climate control, rear-passenger dedicated multimedia and DVD including individual video monitors, and more.
So . . . "can't hack it"? What features are you talking about? Just curious.
Who the heck are you carrying in back that needs to have a leg rest, etc.? I love my kids and my business partners, but not enough to treat them like potentates.
Some upscale real estate agents have the 750Li and specifically want the L so their clients have extra room in the backseat. Business executives that are always entertaining clients are common owners....
It might sound crazy to you, but if you've ever ridden in the back of an "i" vs an "Li", you'd be impressed with the comfort. In addition to that, you can only get the articulated and ventilated seats with the Li.
When you're talking $80k, what's an extra $4k?
Who the heck are you carrying in back that needs to have a leg rest, etc.? I love my kids and my business partners, but not enough to treat them like potentates.
Why would 2/3rds of buyers want that?
garyh1,
It sounds like you don't get it . . . at least not yet. The Li, the LS460L, the XJ L & XJ Vanden Plas, and the S-Class all offer (or soon to offer) what MANY of the high end buyers want in a LUXURY car . . . and that is very simply PLENTY of rear-passenger legroom (not just ample legroom). Additionally, a long wheelbase, by it's very nature, tends to offer very smooth ride characteristics. If you haven't been a rear passenger in any of these long wheelbase models, then you owe it to yourself to try it. It really is a more comfortable and INDULGING experience. This is why Lexus will offer the LS460L version. While Lexus is not my first pick, primarily due to my personal styling preferences, I know and respect their genius at what they do. Believe me here . . . you can TRUST that Lexus understands the long wheelbase marketplace very well.
TagMan
Gotcha. You were referring to the BASIC version. A fully-loaded Vanden Plas or Portfolio is chock-full of most of the latest and greatest. BTW, the voice command is merely dealer "activated", and can be "trained" so that the Jaguar voice system "learns" the driver's voice (actually TWO totally different driver's voices), and this reduces the number of misinterpretations commonly associated with voice command systems.
For 100 large, what would you buy? S, LS, or ?
There was an article published in an issue of AutoBeat Daily this week stating that Lexus recently received "Top Honors" for brand image amongst a large group of "America's wealthy". I can't recall the exact name of the company that conducted the survey, but I saved the e-mail attachment of AutoBeat Daily in PDF file format at the office. I'll have to go back and read the article again. But the survey wasn't conducted by Lexus themselves.
Also according to AutoBeat Daily, Lexus ranks no. 1 in brand loyalty/customer retention as well as both initial quality and downstream reliability. With that said, I still feel as though Mercedes-Benz and BMW both produce much, much better-looking cars and SUVs than Lexus. Even though I drive a Lexus most of the time, I will openly admit that I didn't purchase the car for its looks. If styling had been my number one priority in a vehicle purchase I certainly wouldn't have chosen a Lexus product. I made initial build quality and downstream reliability my top priorities. Next time I may feel differently and just buy something that blows me away from a styling standpoint.
Ron M.
I don't deny for a moment that Lexus is gaining in status and wealth of their buyers but one sedan isn't going to put them over Mercedes in the status game. Mercedes has many other models that not even BMW can match when it comes to status etc. Mercedes' position isn't held/made on sedans alone.
Why do you think consumers care about build cost? No one cares about that to the point of thinking about what a car company's profits are. Totally irrelevent to a buyer. All buyers care about is the price of the vehicle not why it is cheaper or how that came to be.
M
The LS430 is rated at 0-60 in 5.9 sec.
My LS 430 Ultra (01) has an on off switch for the Stability Control.
merc1,
I think ljflx was referring to the celebrity appreciation (or infatuation, depending upon how you look at it) with HYBRID cars as opposed to Lexus cars. So, the point as I understood it was, once you combine the HYBRID technology to an upstream vehicle like the new LS, it is likely (due to the HYBRID technology) to become a celebrity hit. I do agree with that, as the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid are "cool" with that crowd (that "crowd" do indeed tend to be environmentalists, trend setters, liberals, progressive thinkers, etc.). The hybrids are "green" and the celebrities love them. And, of course, with that crowd price is not as much a factor.
BTW, I do TOTALLY agree with you about the "status" of the Mercedes. I have consistently indicated my position on this.
TagMan
M
ljflx,
Even though you are a "Lexus guy", I often agree with (or at least appreciate) your perspective on some things, but while I agree that the LS has great styling, I do not agree that it surpasses many if not all of the German cars. I can't go that far out on a limb.
TagMan
Secondly, yeah we all know what the meaning of "celebrity" is, but I asked which celebrity "crowd" you were referring to. Big difference. They aren't all the same.
M
Allow me to translate for you, Merc. "Wating my tome" is Hollywood-talk for "wasting my time." I know new celeb-speak doesn't get out to Illinois too quickly. :shades:
Holy smokes! The new S-Class is freakin' GORGEOUS! Give me a break, here. There are going to be a lot of trade-ins going on later this year for both the new LS and the new S. I'm not a big 7-series fan, but I admire the car. And, I do actually believe the Lexus LS is nice, but the price MUST be right to do well, IMO. And, for whatever personal reason, I've always just loved the Jaguar XJ, especially the newest generation aluminum Vanden Plas & Portfolio.
This new S-CLass is one of the most beautiful Mercedes Benz ever built, IMO, inside and out! And, as I have said all along, it will sell well. No doubt about it.
TagMan
Well, if we were talking about "sports celebrities", we'd all be referring to the "DUB" styling conversions, wouldn't we?
You are right. BIG difference.
TagMan
Wow, that's an interesting statistic and says a lot about why Lexus would want to have a LWB model. Are the numbers similar for the Audi A8 vs. A8L?
Thanks to all of you for helping me see the light. I now understand the the LWB is perfect for a chauffeur-driven celebrity real estate executive who sits in a baby seat and needs frequent massages.
I guess it's all part of the American psyche that says "more is better". I am still enough of an urbanite to think that 4" more in length cuts me out of that many more parallel parking spots, and can only add to the limitations on drivability (although obviously these manufacturers are using a lot of technology to make up for the size - apparently with much success). If I really needed that space I certainly would be willing to pay for it (for example, if I and my kids were all 6'4" plus).
I can tell you one thing for sure: if I end up with an LS in the future, I won't be getting the passenger side-only footrest option; there is no way I am going to listen to my teenagers arguing over who is going to sit on that side!
My LS is an 01 ultra here are some of the features that a Jag may or may not have.
1)Automatic, Fold in, heated, outside outside mirrors, with puddle lights.
2) Reclining rear seats..
3)The Mark Levenson sound system.. I think acknowledged by most to be as good as there is..11 speakers (The new one is even better I understand)
4) On/Off switch for the Stability Control
5) Auto On/Off Wipers and head Lights
6) Switch for the Rear Sun Screen (which automatically reclines when you put the car in reverse)...Plus rear Side window sun Screens, Even has a small visor over the rearview mirror that you can flip down to block the sun when it comes in over that mirror.
7) Power Head rests and a switch that can put the rear seats and head reasts back into their normal position after someone one has used them.
8) Seat controls on the left side of the passanger seat so the driver can adjust it for Grandma or the Kids or any passanger who doesn't know how to fiddle with the adjustments on the right side by the door.
9) Through the dash CD changer for 6 CDs
10) Brake Assist, and Traction control and ABS
11) Through the Seat Heating and COOLING front and Back. Note:
12 Power Door and Trunk Closers (all 4 doors)
13 Dynamic Cruse Control..Awesome feature Automatically slows you down or speeds you up by locking onto the car in front of you. You set the max speed you want to drive at and the distance you want to follow the car in front at.
14 Water Repellent Side, Front and rear Windows
15 A switch to go from Standard suspension to Sport suspension. Also an Air suspension in the Ultra that thghtens itself up during emergency maneuvers or during aggressive driving. At hwy Speed it will drop the car about an inch for better Wind Resistance. There is also a switch that will raise the car 3" if needed to drive in snow.
16 The Nav system uses only one disk for all 50 states and Canada. It is very ultra easy to use...Can use the Touch screen or voice activation.
17 Rear seats each have their own controls for recline, Heat, warm, massage, Head rests up or down, there are common Radio controls.
18 Auto leveling HID head lamps.
19 An upper and lower lumbar support control
20 The Bottom seat cussion can be extended for more thigh support.
21 Power Telecoping and Tilt Steering wheel.
22 Parking assist that identifies objects withing 3 ft. in back and side of car Shows on the Nav screen and using a bar graph shows how far away you are from the object. (the new LS has back up camera's)
23 State of the art double air filtration system.
I am sure there is more that I am forgetting and I am sure many of these feature are also on the Jag...
37"-38" rear leg room: OK on long trips for passengers 5'8" to 5'10" tall.
39"-40" rear leg room: comfortable long term for passengers 5'11" to 6'0" tall.
41"+ rear leg room: a must for all day comfort if passengers are 6'1" or taller. 42"-43" is better for passengers in the 6'2" to 6'5" range.
Merc1: Much as you put Len to task about defining the "celeb crowd" he refers to, I'd ask you the same question here. Can you describe the typical consumer/buyer of HELM to us, based on your vast knowledge of these buyers as you so eloquently spoke in the quote above ? I am especially curious about why you think a HELM buyer does not care about why a car is cheaper or how that came to be ???
Yep, this makes perfect sense to me. But for your numbers to be meaningful, it also would depend on how tall the people in front are and therefore how far back they put the front seats. My LS is rated at 37.6", and I am 5'11" and felt perfectly comfortable in the back. But if the front seats were all the way back, I bet it would be tight for me.
Hey, I'm going to save me a few bucks and start to limit my friends and business associates to 5'10" - then I can get by with a SWB!
If my 5'3" wife drives it opens up lots of back seat room.
This has nothing to do with the old bickering about whether car buyers know or care about Toyota's better profits than MB's, etc. Please let's not go there again (at least not unnecessarily, when it's not even relevant).
I think it would be safe to say that ALL the HELM's have MOST of the features you indicated, and some have even more. The newer models typically now boast Bluetooth, voice command, touch-screen navigation, satellite radio, rear multimedia entertainment, etc. The point is that they are all lavishly equipped, more or less, from a feature standpoint.
Driving characteristics are UNIQUE, however, as are the profound differences in STYLING. Some of the driving characteristics can be statistically measured, such as accelleration, braking, slalom, etc., but even with those measurements it is impossible to objectively analyze the "feel" of a vehicle. The "feel" of a vehicle is purely subjective as are the different preferences for "style".
TagMan
When one considers geo-political events ahead with Iran, China and the US, as these apply to oil and gasoline, the concept of hybrids and diesels become even more important. Toyota has demonstrated their forward-thinking strategy here and have set the tone. A LWB, hybrid lux sedan doing 30MPG like that projected for the LS600H, in a new sleek design, will be enormously popular among many crowds, not just celebs. I know quite a few people interested in the Prius, and these are not environmentalists or green people. They are simply concerned about cost of gasoline. Personally, I am no *greeny*, but want value for my money. If hybrids bridge the gap to H2-powered, or cell-powered cars of the future, I'm all for it.
That said, the LS600H will be a strong competitor against the S600/760Li; and the LS460L will compete even more against the S550. My feel is that the new LS will outpace the new S sedans in sales by even larger margins, in a year from now.
And again what does anyone care about this? We know this, we've been known this for years and years when it comes to Toyota and their production costs, skills etc., but what difference does it make to anyone who doesn't live for pointing it out day in and day out? This is very old news and I don't think any suggested that it somehow changed with the new S and LS.
This is nothing but the old buyers-care-about-profits type stuff which is irrelevant. What person would feel good about thinking they're making a car company rich when they buy one of their cars? The whole point is irrelevant. It isn't like Lexus is the only company that makes a profit here.
M
On forums about Civics, G6's, etc., I see the "my car is better than your car" posts and arguments all over the place. People get emotional about their opinions; don't like it when others disagree.
Then I come to high-end forum, where presumably most posters are of substantial means if they drive one of these cars. Heck, you're probably almost all high-end professionals.
Yet we're all still arguing like the teenagers driving their first cars!
What does that say about us? I'm not sure, I just find it funny.