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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    I'll show you some love. The GL looks like a nice truck (unlike the R), and it will be well-recieved, and easily eclipse the aged LX470 as the bona-fide RangeRover adversary. The S will show a nice sales spike, for the first 2 years anyway, and the ML shows me staying power. I like it! :shades:

    Problem is Mercedes, in the US, is clearly reactionary, not setting the market anymore. The King has gone George W. on us!

    The image has eroded, with Lexus, with the ML, with associations w/Chrysler. It's not "untouchable" anymore. They can make a great car anytime, but it may not be right for us. They don't do the research necessary in this country. They just build what they like. And it's really good. But it's missing that intangible it had when comp wasn't so fierce, and their image wasn't in question.

    In regards to the details to BMW/Lexus success, this is something Mercedes should know better than us! This is competition, not a bake sale!

    Luxury sales are growing many times faster than Mercedes sales. And if you're drivin' an SLR, if you get passed, it's on you, my friend. It's on you. :sick:

    Mercedes is being out-"Smart"-ed in the US. And that's no acronym! :surprise:

    DrFill
  • stomp32stomp32 Member Posts: 38
    Saw the new S at a dealership this past weekend. I have to say it looked great, even in silver. The fender bulges look just fine in person, and I even find the rear end treatment to be more than acceptable. I think the S will look stunning in black.

    Now I must admit that I own an LS430 and think it also looks great, so there goes all my styling credibility.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    But Merc, please don't try to blame Japanese car fans for MB's lost reputation for reliability; MB squandered that on its own!

    I've never done that, how could I? There are many reasons for their drop in reliability, but none of them have anything to with Japan. It was all internal as you state.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Problem is Mercedes, in the US, is clearly reactionary, not setting the market anymore.

    When it comes to SUVs that is clearly the case, but with their cars that isn't nearly as true. The CLS proves that Mercedes still has the ability to open a market or create one for a unique product. Now watch as others including Porsche follow. Whether or not you want to admit it the S-Class still sets the standard. You think the Lexus would have gone for a 100hp leap from the LS430 to the LS460 if the new S550 didn't have 382hp? The back seat treatments in the LS460 were clearly inspired by another Mercedes-Benz product, the Maybach.

    The days of Mercedes building what they wanted to build with no regard to what the customer (especially U.S. customers) is long over. That and them making a great car, but it isn't right for the U.S. is nonesense doc. They've done nothing but alter things from the old hard line German stance to appeal to the American market and it's taste.

    There is another discussion on GCZ about whether or not Mercedes has become too Americanized and some of the European posters thing they have.

    BMW is enjoying a big surge in sales because they have a newer (sedan) lineup, not because they're doing something to cater more to the American market. BMW hasn't wavered one bit from what made them famous in the first place - the driving experience. They haven't made their cars soft and numb in order to appeal to even more Americans like you're trying to imply. The majority will likely still tell you that a BMW isn't the ideal "luxury car" experience. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "they ride too hard" or something like that.

    Lexus does cater to the American market more than MB and BMW, gee you'd think they would since it was nameplate thought up just for doing such. Mercedes was to design a car that will appeal worldwide and does so with ease. Unlike Lexus which isn't a spec on the map outside the U.S. They can't lead in every market around the world, but they do in most. This theory about them not doing the research in the U.S. doesn't make sense and isn't true in the least. I suspect that theory came about because of the R-Class. This is the price of being first or trying to originate/open up a new market segment. Sometimes you score a hit (CLS) or you don't (R-Class). I don't see Lexus trying to invent a new segment or do anything but chase Mercedes and now BMW.

    What Mercedes can be accused of is taking their eye off of the quality/durability/relibilty that made them famous. People loved old-school Benzes when they weren't as soft as they are now. Mercedes problem is a black-eye when it comes to people who buy with CR/JDP reports in the mix, not because they don't "cater" to the U.S. market. The first generation M-Class and R-Class, though the jury still isn't out on the R yet, are the only Mercedes products that may have not been done right with U.S. taste in mind. The R-Class supposedly was done for the U.S. market, but I'lll give you that its either the price/value equation or the styling is not going over well. This didn't happen in 2005 with the new SLK, CLS or M-Class and it surely won't happen with the new S-Class. So this about Mercedes making a great car that isn't right for the U.S. market is false.

    Truth is Lexus can't design or spec a LS until they see what the S-Class has to offer.

    I clearly remember on the 2007 LS board you saying that they won't go for more than 30-40hp gain with the new LS, and that likely would have been the case until the S550 was shown last Sept with 382hp.

    Sure Mercedes isn't "untouchable" anymore, no one at this point, but Mercedes isn't made singularly by sedans like most here seem to think and they surely aren't below Lexus on any scale other than relibility.

    M
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I've never done that, how could I?

    Sorry, I thought that you were going in that direction with this line from your post:

    Those who have no experience with this, but live to hype it up don't help either.

    I guess I had read your previous numerous references to Lexans "hyping" MB's problems, and it sounded like you were saying that "those" folks were exacerbating/extending the issue.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I guess I had read your previous numerous references to Lexans "hyping" MB's problems, and it sounded like you were saying that "those" folks were exacerbating/extending the issue.

    Oh well they do just that, but the problem (MB has) isn't their fault, but they do hype it for sure.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Lots of good points!! . . . but you repeatedly indicated that Lexus was reacting to the Mercedes products, and while I tend to agree to a point, I also think that Lexus has had BMW in their crosshairs . . . and I didn't read this in your post. Perhaps you were just referring to the Mercedes for now, or perhaps you do not agree with me that Lexus has a focus on BMW. ??????

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh, I meant that up until now Mercedes was the focus, but clearly with the IS and GS the focus for Lexus is BMW, but the results are mixed at best.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I have to wonder if there might be BMW influence in that new LS. I can't help this sense when I see it and read about it that somehow BMW was in their (Lexus's) minds. Afterall, BMW is SO significant, and you've just got to KNOW that Toyota/Lexus has known this as well as anyone, maybe even better than anyone, and to think that they didn't consider BMW in the creation of this newest LS . . . well . . . I just think that they did. As well as with the IS and GS.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm not sure if the LS was created with BMW in mind like the IS and GS were. I spent a lot of time looking at the LS and I really didn't see much in common with the 7-Series other than a similar profile. This about everyone following Bangle's design is way overblown IMO. They're both large sleek cars, but that is where the similarities end to my eye. The Lexus doesn't have the wierd trunklid or cutlines of the BMW. Flame surfacing? Designman will have to expalain that one to me.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'll show you some love. The GL looks like a nice truck (unlike the R), and it will be well-recieved, and easily eclipse the aged LX470 as the bona-fide RangeRover adversary.

    Gasp! I didn't see this at first. Shockingly I have to disagree. The GL doesn't have the interior or hp to truly challenge the Range Rover IMO. The Range Rover interiors are on another level and the Supercharged models belt out 390-400hp and Mercedes for some reason is only offering the GL450 with the smaller 335hp V8. A GL550 with 382hp has to be the biggest MIA no-brainer product in history. I hate that I had to disagree with you on this. :cry:

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The S is going to do very well, and the GL will do very well

    We shall see. None of these forward projections can be taken for granted. It's been a while since the last time MB had major success with a main line product (C, E, S, R/M). We already know that MB can not sustain market share in existing market segments due to poor quality and the 1-2 punch from Lexus and BMW, it has to live off pioneering new market segments, a la the original ML, SLK, etc. R class was supposed to be the biggest of big segment busters. MB poured so much money into designing this model and creating the new segment . . . to the extent that we are practically looking at really superanuarated products throughout the rest of the line up. Its market failure is a significant blow to the marque.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Phrases like "unsubstantiated type at its best" does not contribute any substance to your argument.

    We do not yet know how well the S-class will do in the market place. The reality is that it takes the sucess of 10 fringe models like the CLS to make up for the failure of one main line product like the R. R was planned to sell on the order of 30-50k units a year; CLS was/is a 3-5k/yr product. Comparing the market significance of CLS to that of the R is nonsense Mitsubishi and you know it.

    As far as Lexus and BMW, if Mercedes had redone all of their sedans in such a short period of time they'd likely see a similar sales increase also.

    Except no car maker can redo all their car lineups and all their truck lineups all at once. When Lexus and BMW let their car lines cool off a bit and focused their R&D on SUV's, their SUV sales skyrocketted while car sales maintained pace (actually better than that). When MB focuses R&D, its car sales lose market share and the fruit of SUV R&D turns out to be a big box office bomb. I guess I should expect no less here.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Phrases like "unsubstantiated type at its best" does not contribute any substance to your argument

    I call it like I see it.

    The rest of your post really makes no sense and the "Mitsubishi" reference is out of line according to the crying "foul" to the host by you in the past.

    A previous poster stated that Mercedes doesn't lead anymore and I said that the CLS proves that they can introduce a new car and invent a new segment. Then I stated that they did the same thing with the R-Class but it wasn't a success like the CLS. I didn't at any time slight the fact that the R isn't a hit or say that the CLS being a success is more important. NO WHERE did I say this, but this is what you got from that post. A typical example of a spin just for the sake of arguing. BTW, the CLS is a 10K+ a year product, not 3-5K.

    Tell you what when you can bring a credible argument to the table and not a complete spin/twist of what I said and not just the plain ole bash MB nonesense at every turn, I'll be more than happy to engage you in a debate, until then I'm done wasting time repsonding to your posts.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I don't see Lexus trying to invent a new segment or do anything but chase Mercedes and now BMW.

    The original RX was the first luxury unibody SUV, and the first vehicle I believe that people started referring to as a "crossover". To me that spells "invent(ing) a new segment".

    The hybrid powertrain of the Prius and RX400h don't spell Lexus solely "chase(ing) Mercedes and now BMW". Quite the opposite, don't you think, with every major car company chasing Toyota/Lexus in hybrids?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The hybrid powertrain of the Prius and RX400h don't spell Lexus solely "chase(ing) Mercedes and now BMW". Quite the opposite, don't you think, with every major car company chasing Toyota/Lexus in hybrids?

    I was waiting on a Lexus fan to point these out, two exceptions to their normal practice of being a follower. Doesn't change their overall status because the examples of them being a follower of the biggest kind are many.

    The hybrids I'll give them big credit for because it is current and everyone is jumping on that. The RX thing is old news at this point and it wasn't first in that segment anyway.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "A previous poster stated that Mercedes doesn't lead anymore and I said that the CLS proves that they can introduce a new car and invent a new segment. Then I stated that they did the same thing with the R-Class but it wasn't a success like the CLS."

    Won't argue with you at all on this one but in my mind the CLS probably cannibalizes other Benz sales a lot more than anything else. Is it a co-incidence that E-class sales go down as the CLS comes out. If not otherwise than who is the CLS stealing sales from? From my perspective if you need both the E and the CLS to stay even or rise slightly with past year sales of the singular E-class model (as was the case in year one) it means your cost of doing business went up.

    But I will argue on the power front. Lexus is leading big-time with the hybrids. MB's added power on the S was a response to BMW adding power on the 7 and a lot of all of this can be traced back to Lexus rolling out a V8 in 1989. I don't view anyone leading here with more powerful gas engines in the mainstream (volume) car models - this is just an upping the ante game. On the hybrid front Lexus is clearly setting the pace and if I was a German lux mfr. I'd have a fear that they may steal this emerging and future growth segment just like they stole the SUV segment.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont know, Lexus is making a lot of wierd decisions in regards to where the hybrids fit into the line up. The reason for buying the 400h was the power advantage over the 330. Now there's a 270hp RX350. The GS450h has nothing really to offer over the GS430. Lexus could've used it as an alternative to offering an AWD GS430, but its going to be RWD, with similar power and performance to the GS430, and it will almost certainly be outmatched by the GS460. I really fail to see the logic here.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    You think the Lexus would have gone for a 100hp leap from the LS430 to the LS460 if the new S550 didn't have 382hp? ...I clearly remember on the 2007 LS board [drfill]saying that they won't go for more than 30-40hp gain with the new LS, and that likely would have been the case until the S550 was shown last Sept with 382hp.

    Merc1, the car companies are to some extent in an HP war, but I think you go too far in assuming that the hp of the LS460 is a direct reaction to the hp of the S550.

    Here is a rough chronology, I didn't look for exact dates:

    (1) model year 2005 Avalon introduced with 3.5 liter 280 hp - 80 hp/liter

    (2) IS350 introduced with 3.5 liter 306 hp - 87 hp/liter

    (3) S550 was shown last Sept with 382hp - 69 hp/liter

    (4) LS460 unveiled with 380 hp - 83 hp/liter

    Maybe in your world, where every Lexus move is imagined to be a direct reaction (or worse yet, copy) of MB/BMW, you can see a causal relationship between (3) and (4). I don't. I see a general hp war, and a relationship between the technology in the Avalon, IS, and now LS engines. The new Lexus engines do have a dual injection technology, and that in part is how Lexus achieves the combination of high hp and improved mpg. Please explain for us, does dual injection copy MB/BMW?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I saw one recent rave about the performance of the R-class.
    If one doesn't mind driving a "classless" car-is it a wagon, minivan or SUV-one can buy one for about $1500 under invoice, which is almost $6000 off MSRP.
  • templeton3templeton3 Member Posts: 69
    I swore I would never buy another Mercedes because of such negative experience,but now it seems like they are teasing everyone with great deals. In Southern California, newpapaper ad for a R class for $395 per month with $5000 drive off for a $54,000 car. I asked my wife if she was interested, she said no, its too ugly. I asked her about the S500, we could get a $15,000 discount. She prefers the BMW 750IL. Maybe if the price gets better, she could be persuaded to drive a Mercedes again.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Maybe I'm an exception, but if the R had been available back when we bought our E320 wagon years ago (1994), it would have been on our list for sure. We needed a car that could carry a bunch of little kids for carpooling, but my wife didn't want a "MommyMobile" minivan or an oversized SUV. The E wagon's 3rd seat could handle one or two kids when necessary, but it otherwise drove like an excellent handling sedan. I haven't driven the R, but if it drove well and handled the carpooling better than the E wagon, we'd at least be considering it. But then of course, MB would have lost the sale of an E wagon....

    BTW, my 17 year old daughter is now driving the wagon, which of course is not considered cool (yeah, don't we all feel sorry for her). I imagine an old R would be even less cool as a hand-me-down!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Won't argue with you at all on this one but in my mind the CLS probably cannibalizes other Benz sales a lot more than anything else. Is it a co-incidence that E-class sales go down as the CLS comes out. If not otherwise than who is the CLS stealing sales from? From my perspective if you need both the E and the CLS to stay even or rise slightly with past year sales of the singular E-class model (as was the case in year one) it means your cost of doing business went up.

    But when you look at E-Class sales they only dipped about 6K units for 2005 compared to 2004 if I remember right. I don't think the CLS was the cause of this. The cause IMO was a new GS, RL, M35/45 and a 5-Series that became hugely popular in its second year just like the E did in its second year - 2004. Other than this what time frame are you talking about in which the E's sales dropped so badly? At the beginning of last year? That may have been because of the CLS then again it could have been just the beginning of this year - Mercedes gets off to a slow start - slower than everyone else it seems. Not sure why.

    But I will argue on the power front. Lexus is leading big-time with the hybrids. MB's added power on the S was a response to BMW adding power on the 7 and a lot of all of this can be traced back to Lexus rolling out a V8 in 1989. I don't view anyone leading here with more powerful gas engines in the mainstream (volume) car models - this is just an upping the ante game. On the hybrid front Lexus is clearly setting the pace and if I was a German lux mfr. I'd have a fear that they may steal this emerging and future growth segment just like they stole the SUV segment

    Leading what though? A market segment or overall image? Sure they're leading in hybrids, but hybrids aren't everything by a long shot. Lexus rolling out a V8 in 1989 didn't really catch Mercedes in a bad position considering they already offered a V8, two of them to be exact.

    I agree that the Germans had better get with the game on hybrids, and they've all had to do an about face on this. This past Frankfurt autoshow proves this, everyone had a hybrid on display. You know its crunch time when GM, Mercedes and BMW all work together on something! These companies really can't stand each other normally. Again, though hybrids are but one aspect of the market and yes Lexus leads there, but that doesn't equal overall supremacy over Mercedes and BMW. Not by a long shot.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Valid points IMO. I don't see the purpose of a GS450h either if the GS460 will outpower it for likely less money. A lot of people think that hybrids are the second coming of the automobile.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc1, the car companies are to some extent in an HP war, but I think you go too far in assuming that the hp of the LS460 is a direct reaction to the hp of the S550.

    You say hp war I say direct response to the #1 competitor. We'll have to agree to disagree there. Lexus' past actions say that this is a direct response to Mercedes IMO. Between that hp rating and an 8-speed tranny, Lexus most definitely was looking at Mercedes (specifically the S550) when developing the LS460's drivetrain. Though I do see what you're saying with the hp per liter ratings - that the LS460's hp rating just happens to fit in with what they're doing with all their engines at the moment. True, but mightily suspect to me considering Lexus' past actions. Mere coincidence that dual injection technology gets them to the same hp number as their direct competitor? I don't think so.

    You're just reaching about dual injection being thought of as a copy by me. Never even implied any such thing. The technoloy isn't a copy, but they sure made sure they tuned it right in order to match the S550 and a 8-speed tranny was likely in development since the first 7-speed Benz hit the road in 2003.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Mercedes gets off to a slow start - slower than everyone else it seems. Not sure why."

    Sales stats are cars delivered to dealers not necessarily sold to consumers. For example one would think November and December should be big months for Lexus because of the December to remember promotions. Typically I'd expect January to be a slow month for them because of that promotion ending so sales staying high is a real positive sign as it shows an indication of advanced dealer orders for late January and February sales to consumers - even after a major promotional period. In the case of MB - I'm not sure of their promotion periods. If January-February is a dead promotion month I'd expect that January sales would be low. The telling point on this years January sales that should be troubling is "same car sales" the auto equivalent of retails closely watched "same store sales". Take out the R-class sales and business is down in the same comparative period.

    I don't know what the expectations of the ML were. i thought I read 30-35K annual sales but maybe I'm mistaken. Is the just under 2K units good, average or bad in your mind?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well Mercedes' promotions end on Jan 3rd every year.

    I'm sorry Lenn, but all this worry about Jan's sales figures is much fuss over nothing to me. We've had this same implication of some kind of problem every single year for the past 2-3 years around this time, and sales always pick up.

    Now if the S-Class doesn't sell well in March (which will be its first full month on the market) then there will be cause for suggesting there is a problem.

    For the M-Class Jan is a bad month, but why is there so much fuss over this? We're talking like all the M will ever do is under 2K when I know that won't be the case, if past sales performance is any indication. Again, too much worrying about one month! I don't remember what the sales projections were for the M-Class, but 30K sounds about right I think.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'd be surprised if the S-class doesn't sell well. The longer-term issue is will the LS cut into it given the lead time is only 6 months this go round. Like Tagman I expect both models to do very well. But I'd think that April is probably a better benchmark month for S sales than March as there are usually supply line hiccups in the first month.

    I will be curious to see if we start seeing S-class sales figures in February as it could be indicative of how fast consumers will buy them in March. If it says zero in the MB charts than I am mistaken and the sales charts are entirely tied to Consumer purchases and not manufacturing shipments to dealers.

    M-class - I really have no opinion on it at all, just was curious how you read it. A few days ago when I saw the figure my initial reaction was it was lower than I would have expected.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I found a few more reviews about the R-Class-and it is unanimous-vehicle drives and handles great and is extremely comfortable with an enormous amount of room back there.
    A car critic for MSN.com who is notorious for hardly ever giving a car a rating higher than an 8 out of 10, raves and gives it a 9!

    A shame it's not selling.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    With all the talk about the ML...have people noticed that the RX isn't doing so great, despite the 400h being in the mix? I think Lexus has to be disappointed. Jan RX (330 and 440h combined) -10% yty, Dec -4.8, Nov -8.5, Oct -1.4.

    I think there are a few reasons: overall weak industry SUV sales; new ML; lack of excitement over the RX400h.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    IMO your view just isn't supported by the facts. Surely the 4.6 liter Lexus engine was in development well before anyone knew the S550 would be 382 hp? Now, if the Lexus 4.6 was unbalanced in some way, for instance, being very weak in terms of torque, then I'd accept that they made a late decision to tune it toward a particular hp number because of what MB was doing.

    But such isn't the case. The Lexus 4.6 is 380 hp, 370 lb-ft, which is consistent with past LS engines which had approximately equal hp and torque numbers. If it were 380 hp and 280 lb-ft or something like that, then you'd have a more persuasive conjecture.

    Separately, sorry for the confusion, but no I didn't think you had claimed dual injection was a copy of something MB/BMW had done. I just brought it up as an example of something that Lexus has done that ISN'T a copy of MB/BMW; and that indeed MB/BMW may find themselves "copying" from Lexus.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I'm sure everyone in Montvale are waiting breathlessly to see what the sales numbers will be for that first 6 weeks or so. I'm sure the whole class will see a dip in sales once the LS460 gets up to speed. With an assult on the class like that a big dip at all brands is likely.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah Lexus' new 4.6L V8 was in development for years before the S550 was ever shown, correct. I just think that once they found out that the S550 would have 382hp they made sure that they'd at least match that with 380hp thats all. I hardly think Lexus would have made a 100hp leap from one generation of LS to the next if Mercedes hadn't seriously upped the power in the S-Class.

    Mercedes and BMW have used direct-injecton for years on diesels and BMW uses it on the V12 in the 760, but I doubt either of them will use a dual-injection system once they switch their "petrol" engines over to direct-injection. BTW, I don't consider companies adapting competitor's technology as copying. That charge was regarding design, not technology.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Very much in agreement with your sentiment. Like I said before, with all the heavy discounting, some of the high-MSRP MB vehicles, including the R class, actuall make for good deals, especially in the leasing form. I was advised by my accountant the other day that I was losing $400/mo in bank interest payment the way I was running my cash accounts; with $400/mo lease deals on R class, many small business and households with enough cash flow can probably get one "for free" with today's 4+% bank interest rates without any risk of market exposure. That makes a big difference from taking a $54k bite out of cash reserve. Does beg the question though, what's MB's return on investment, and how much water is there in that $54k MSRP price tag.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Another factor is market saturation. It's the fourth year the current RX330 has been on the market, unchanged. Lexus sells over 100k RX a year in the US! A level no other luxury vehicle model has ever achieved. I was at the post office parking lot yesterday, and found myself wedged between two RX's, with half a dozen more in the parking lot (with only 30+ spaces). It's not like people need two of them so one can be kept out of the repair shop (just kidding, not even today's MB's are quite that bad). Luckily, the RX is to be updated/replaced later this year; selling 90k units this late in the product cycle is actually very good for a luxury model. For comparison, the R class is on its way to sell about 20k units in its first model year (and that's being generous).

    Also, what's the deal with the new ML and R copying the curvy lines of RX . . . for that matter even naming the latter "class" by copying part of the name of RX. Tongue semi-firm in cheek . . . if only the shoe were on the foot, one can easily see MBphiles accusing Lexus of "copying."
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    One of the real downsides to leasing is there are so many tempting vehicles comng out while you are locked in for 36 months.
    Otherwise, I would be taking a serious look at the R-class.
    I have yet to read any reviews less than a complete rave.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If you have to keep 2-3 cars, and IMHO most HELM cars are not owned as the only vehicle in the household, the "lock" is only 12-18 months before one parking bay is up for replacement.

    My personal hickup with leasing is that, I'm perpetually paranoid of fixed payment liabilities; in business it's usually considered overhead. With MB, I may just have to loosen up a bit some day, and lease; buying outright just makes no sense on the sheer numbers they are using, with all the massive lease subsidies.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Unfortunately, I am the only driver in the house.
    So, only one vehicle for me.
    Does sound nice though-sort of like rolling over laddered CD's or bonds.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Also, what's the deal with the new ML and R copying the curvy lines of RX . . . for that matter even naming the latter "class" by copying part of the name of RX. Tongue semi-firm in cheek . . . if only the shoe were on the foot, one can easily see MBphiles accusing Lexus of "copying."

    I'm not trying to defend one side or the other... but I have to disagree that the ML and R look anything like the RX.

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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Wow! That R is huge!

    Imagine a mini-van-like vehicle that large winning accolades for its great handling.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If you put the following vechiles up:

    1. previous ML320
    2. previous RX300
    3. current RX330
    4. current ML350

    You'd notice a lot of generalities that the current ML took from both the previous RX and current RX in its evolution from the previous ML. The very first time I saw the new ML350, about a year ago, I actually thought that was an RX.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Most "accolades" are qualified with "for a vehicle this large." It's like saying the new Odyssey handles like the 7 series ;-)

    IMHO, the main holdup in R sales, aside from the reliability concern, is the interior size utilization. I'm not exactly sure how MB managed to get a 200+" two-box design to yield only 80+ cu.ft. The RX does 80+ cu.ft with 185", and the 200+" minivans all offer 140+ cu.ft! MB should have consulted its Chrysler subsidiary on interior space utilization issues. Chrysler is actually very competent with that. People get vehicles of this type for interior space more than anything else.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but if HP has been such a huge determining factor, then why did the previous Lexus LS still kick butt, in spite of its HP rating? I question that HP has been all THAT important in the mix of so many other factors.

    Now that fuel efficiency has become a larger consideration, I think that HP will become even LESS of a concern. The very fact that the LS600hybrid will offer a significant HP rating will be ICING on the cake for those buyers . . . because I'd bet large that the LS600hybrid would sell well even if the HP were not so stunning, provided it was not deficient. The LS600hL will be, in essence, an ultimate vehicle, and the HP will be MORE than adequate.

    TagMan
  • samstaytonsamstayton Member Posts: 40
    You have a point there. Lexus doesn't want to be perceived as "inciting" the HP wars. It merely wants to be in S-class side-mirror in terms of power to impress upon Stuttgart and to assure them that they are not the only ones who know how to do it.

    The attitude is this that, we will not launch the missile first, but if you do we are ready.

    But lexus is still far behind mercedes in terms of true technological benchmark which is having a V12 in its line-up.

    Everyone knows that even though V12 does not make statement in fuel-consumption and ecological preservation, it does make a powerful statement in engineering depth.

    Those who are experts in mechanical engineering and mechatronics know very well how making a V12 is so much more complex and challenging than making a V8.

    At this point we do not know whether toyota and lexus are even capable of making a world beating V12 which can match S65 AMG's 600 HP.

    Can they? Thats the question we must ask.
  • samstaytonsamstayton Member Posts: 40
    There are few things which I would like to emphasize on hybrids and the Kick-butt LS 430.

    Lexus has overstated LS 430' acceleration times by almost 1 second. On lexus.com they claim 0-60 in 6.3 sec. Actual time is 7.1-7.2 sec.

    LS 460 is another story. They have 380 HP and are claiming 0-60 in 5.5 secs or less. I think these figures would be real if lexus can keep the weigh under 4200 Lbs for LS 460L.

    As far as hybrids go: LS 600hL is not the last word.

    Petrol or gasoline hybrids will be obsolete soon. The modern diesels are already outclassing them in fuel efficiency and emissions.

    However, and thats a very important point, there is a future possibility of diesel hybrids. In other words

    A. Petrol: Petrol Hybrids,

    B. Diesel: Diesel Hybrids

    The diesel hybrids might be 20-30 % better than diesels.

    In essence, if lexus can introduce a diesel-hybrid with a

    V8 engine and the latest Li Batteries instead of Nickel ion batteries then yes, the hypothetical LS600D-hL (the diesel version) will be the gold standard.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    sam - I still don't believe that Lexus has to "prove" itself to anyone at this point.

    This whole type of thinking reminds me of the days when each of the Marques just had to have a powerful or well-styled 2-seater sports car to prove itself. That was traditionally the place for such proof. The Corvette, the "Z" sitting right next to the freakin' Datsun B210 for gosh sakes, then the "Supra" sitting next to the Corolla, and there came RX7 to put Mazda back in shape, and Honda finally had the Acura NSX (even if there were no buyers), then the S2000, and Dodge finally decided to compete with the Corvette with the Viper, the "new" "Z" returned again because Nissan needed its image fixed. Too many to mention.

    The Japanese sedans started taking on the performance role slightly as the Maxima with the Z engine emerged to be followed by the Toyota Cressida and the powerplants from Japan increased their prowess over the years.

    The Germans have shown prowess with the AMG and M variants.

    But, the planets really must have aligned for Lexus, because at its conception, the potential for it was the size of the GRAND CANYON.

    Do we need these ICONS anymore? Beyond the flagship . . . something that represents the "extreme possibility" . . . y'know, the "look what we can do!" kind of vehicles? Do manufacturers need them . . . and if so . . . when and why? History has shown them to be successful at times, to restore the image of a failing marque, such as the RX7 and the new Z, or to simply bolster the performance perceptions of a marque like Dodge.

    sam . . . I think things have changed a little. YES there IS still merit to show the possibilities . . . but here's the differnce as I see it . . . today it is with TECHNOLOGY as much or even more than HP! A V12 is not needed, IMO.

    In my opinion, in today's world, it is now TECHNOLOGY in cars that makes one of the biggest statements of a manufacturer's capabilities.

    See? ANOTHER reason for Lexus success.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    TagMan
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    And a sweet pair of long boots!

    Talk about a question NOBODY was asking! Toyota, at the very least, if they cared to, could link the IS350's 3.5 to another 3.5, like VW did with the VR6 engine, and make a 600HP V12. No sweat.

    As you have already been advised, if you question Lexus' ability, you can't see the forest through the trees, my friend. They have nothing to prove to you, the Germans, or anyone else.

    If V12's are so hot, why did Jaguar drop it from the XJ? For the last 2 generations? How are those resale values?

    Lexus needs a V12 like I need a BeeGees T-Shirt!

    The Hybrid Age has successfully replaced the Dark Ages.

    If you don't believe me, try to get a LS600 in 18 months, and see how long a list you have to get on.

    Prius owners will be envious! :surprise:

    DrFill
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Wow! I am so surprised at you! You, of all people, know better than that! :confuse:

    You know how hard it is to build a V8, especially to Lexus/Mercedes/BMW levels of smoothness and durability.

    You know Lexus isn't just throwing 50-60HP onto a car at the end of testing, just to amke a point, or keep up with the Joneses. They haven't done that before, so why start now?

    You KNOW they started on the engine, if not before, right after they agreed on a car design in 2001. Lexus isn't going to spend 4 years building a new LS, which they build with the attention of a Taj Mahal, just to add 50HP at the end. That much power enhancement will affect suspension, engine parts, emissions.

    Lexus didn't have 2-3 years to set an engine rating, they had less than a year before the NAIAS?

    Lexus has some great engineers, but that aren't that great!

    Maybe Mercedes engineers should train at Lexus, you know, an Apprenticeship, before heading back, and learn how to boost a Flagship's power 15% in 6 months, with no teething problems, like Lexus does?

    I guess you know something we don't! ;)

    :shades:

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Lexus has overstated LS 430' acceleration times by almost 1 second. On lexus.com they claim 0-60 in 6.3 sec. Actual time is 7.1-7.2 sec."

    Can you provide a source for this? Or did you just make it up? Edmunds managed to hustle the 2001 LS430, with the 5-speed, from 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. Keep in mind that Edmunds is usually .5-1 second slower in launching automatic cars from 0-60 than say Car and Driver, because they dont brake-torque. I think Lexus' 0-60 estimation is right on the money.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Looking at this further, the Mar 05 box says "TBD" which suggests that if the document is real, it is fairly old; so it is possible that there will be more stuff in cy2007 than is indicated.

    Here is the same pic in link form: picture
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