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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You might want to edit that post and put in a link, rather than a direct picture post. That is *a little* over the 500px limit imposed by the hosts.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    The LS430 hit 60 in 6.13. ;)

    DrFill
  • lexusilexusi Member Posts: 65
    I saw this chart earlier, but it says LS900h! iam i blind? or its really LS900h?? anyone knows??

    Lexusi
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks to improper picture sizing, I have to shop around for a 45" monitor!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    And the addition of a sixth cog has made the car < 6 seconds. I have no idea where this supposed 7.2 number came from, thin air I suspect. The LS430 weighs less than the Acura RL, which is why its always been faster than its horsepower would suggest.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree of course that Lexus lacks a certain amount of prestige because they lace a V12, however I do think the LS600h (if it truly lives up to all the hype given around here) will partly make up for this. Now I'm reading that it won't be a $100K car, but will be 90K instead? So much speculation here and on the 2007 LS board. I'll just wait until they show the car in New York in April. Of course for some a V12 is a V12 and there is no substitue. That crowd I don't think would buy a Lexus anyway, V12 or not.

    At this point we do not know whether toyota and lexus are even capable of making a world beating V12 which can match S65 AMG's 600 HP.

    Well we know they could if they wanted too, but it wouldn't fit in the with green performance image Lexus is trying create with their hybrids and we know Toyota isn't going to do a V12 with 600 and hybrid with 500hp. One would render the other pointless - depending on the type of buyer.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well we know they didn't just throw 50hp on at the end, but they sure made sure they matched the S550. I'm sure anyone in the industry could have found out what the hp rating was long before the launch in Sept 2005. Not hard to do. You were the one that said they'd never go over 350hp!

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    V12 has never been a "true technological benchmark" for any automaker. Companies typically got their production V12 before their capability to make a production V8 by simply putting two 6-cyl engines together; e.g. BMW of the late 80's. V12's are usually sold in such small numbers that it makes no sense to start new engine technology R&D on production V12 engines; they just get whatever is available on the company's I6 or V6, in a double-shot.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    A 23" does just fine. It's the horizontal pixel count that matters, most 45" monitors actually are video monitors that have relatively low pixel count.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Above the monsterous 2560x1600 Dell 30" 3007FP, nothing is higher than 1920x1080 (though granted thats still very high compared to a few years ago).
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    No kidding. If throwing in additional 50hp at the tail end of vehicle development cycle were that easy, why not throwing 5 more and trounce the S550?

    The whole point about Lexus "copying" MB on horsepower is ludicrous. If not for competition, none of the big three premium brands would be updating their products as frequently as they do. Of course all of them try to anticipate what the competitions offer and try to come up with products that are competitive.

    BTW, the leaders of a horse power race is usually the under-dog of the market segment. For example, BMW has had the leadership of sports sedan for two decades now; every new comer tried to out-power BMW in order to garner some market attention. For what it's worth, IMHO, in terms of product/engine development cycle and how long it takes to come up with a new engine, Infiniti Q45 was probably what started the current horse power war back when it was introduced with 340hp in early 2001 as a 2002 model when every other premium luxury cruiser had a flagship V8 in the 275-300 range. Even the V12's only made low to mid-300's back then in 2001-2002.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Unfortunately, for all the power that the VK45 had, really sloppy gearing ruined it. The LS430 was faster. It's hard to believe that the Q and the first M were introduced not that long ago. The Q seems like its 10 years old. Infiniti needs to get rid of it in a hurry. I will never understand why they actually spent money to refresh a car for '05 that nobody buys.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    It's safe to back up and read whatever you might have missed.

    :)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Supposedly a model that will have a powerful V8 hybrid and a V12 that will be positioned over the LS and likely a 110K+ starting point. Some posts reference it on the 2007 LS board. I agree with those here that say a powerful V8 + hybrid renders a V12 useless. Is there room for a V12 hybrid in a $150K+ car? Maybe that is where they will go. As far as I'm concerned a car at that level is purely a halo strategy.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    "You know how hard it is to build a V8, especially to Lexus/Mercedes/BMW levels of smoothness and durability."

    I know you were addressing somebody else, and I'm not trying to be rude to you...

    I just get a bit offensive of the "Lexus/Mercedes/BMW" claim. Where's Audi? I have an S4 Cabriolet- wonderful V8 engine. It's the most beautiful car I have ever owned, and it really gets me there! Audi V8s are smooth too.

    And, Lexus isn't relevant to German cars. The "German Big Three" are BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi. Case closed.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "And, Lexus isn't relevant to German cars."

    You may want to read this before making such a claim. If I am a Euro auto exec I'm concerned about every move Lexus is making - seriously concerned. Also there is a separate Euro high end board where Lexus is excluded anyway.

    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/best-in-show-lexus-all-new-ls-460/1671/

    Here's more on the Porsche VW investment. I've yet to read one positive story on this re VW.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/business/worldbusiness/04volkswagen.html?_r=1&- - oref=slogin
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    (sounds like designman's kind of site)

    ...the LS460 features a rounded but prominent body side crease, the new Lexus 'slingshot' DLO which kicks up into the C-pillar and a series of rather odd, curvy shut lines around the rear fender, bumper, light and trunk. Other notable elements are exhausts integrated into the rear lower valance, subtle chrome appliqué at the base of the doors and a faultless but rather conservative interior.

    The LS460 is a more distinctive design than its predecessor, although relative to the imposing BMW 7 Series, unusually dynamic S-Class and classically svelte Jaguar XJ and Maserati Quattroporte it is very much in the old school luxury car idiom. But given its new found sophistication, the brand's ever elevating position and its competitors arguably nonsensical abandonment of the luxury car middle ground, this might just be one of the best judged designs of the year.


    source article
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Agreed. Like I said, Infiniti is the under-dog in the HELM market segment. It's relatively easy to introduce a new-fangled engine that is a cut above all others and lead off a horse power race, but the rest of the system integration is a lot harder. Q45 actually did pretty well in the first model year . . . then its sales fell off a cliff.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I can't find the word "German" in the forum title. As far as luxury brand sales volume ("big three") is concerned, Audi trails far behind Lexus, BMW and Mercedes (in that order) in the US, with Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti in between and all ahead of Audi. Out of all these brands, Acura is the only one without a smooth running V8 or any V8 produciton engine.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Interesting site. They seem to think the new Camry and LS460 have some common styling elements:

    Slightly reminiscent of the new Lexus LS460 also debuting at Detroit, particularly its rear three quarter view.....

    Other than that they seem to really like the new LS design.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I like the site too and have bookmarked it. I think it is helpful to see opinions from design professionals, especially when they appear to be unbiased. The site does seem a bit jargony to me, for instance in the LS piece I don't know what "DLO" means. Maybe someone (designman?) can enlighten us.

    On the LS vs Camry, let's compromise with the middle ground that you quoted, with the Camry "slightly reminiscent of the new Lexus LS460."
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I've read that site for some time, but sometimes you have to catch their reviews in the first few weeks after an autoshow, otherwise I think they'll try to charge you for them.

    Of course we can't have the Camry/LS460 relationship the other way around. ;)

    M
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Toyota has a state of the art 5 liter V-12 with 4 valves and V-vti technology. The Toyota Century uses this engine in Japan: the Century starts at US$150,000.

    Toyota's 'published HP' for the V-12 Century is 288 HP: Japanese manufacturers limit their claims to 288 HP in the home market (wink, nudge, chuckle). True output is probably 400+ HP.

    I am sure this engine could easily top 500 HP if Toyota lets Lexus use it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm sure they could, but I don't think Lexus will do a V12. Now if gas prices and other factors were like they were a few years ago I could see it, but having a hybrid with 500hp and a V12 with similar output that sucks up way more gas just wouldn't make sense if Lexus is trying to sell "green performance".

    I've seen a lot about Toyota's home market V12 on various boards. It was Sammy that questioned wether or not they could build one to match the 600hp AMG V12s. I know they could but I don't see it fitting into the Lexus theme.

    M
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    IMO a V-12 gives HELM cars a cachet that hybrids lack.

    The engine is proven: no development required.

    Link below to Toyota Century V-12 details at Wiki.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The engine is proven: no development required.

    I meant to get 600+ hp out of it, not a V12 in general.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    At his point there is more than sufficient evidence to see the direction of Toyota/Lexus. They seem to be living up to their pledge to make every vehicle available as a hybrid within ten years. I believe it may already have been two years since that speech was made, and what do we see in the marketplace from Toyota/Lexus? More and more hybrid technology, with still more to come.

    All this talk about big ICE's is interesting, of course, but what is REALLY coming from Toyota/Lexus? Hybrids. All we have to do is open our eyes. Sure, there are alternatives, but the ability of Toyota/Lexus to stay focused and on track is key here. And they are doing just that . . . staying the course, and they will be a dominant player as a result.

    Hybrid Technology = MORE power, LESS fuel consumption, and CLEANER emissions. Imagine that. And did I mention MORE power??? I did say MORE power, didn't I? . . . just in case some out there don't get it and think that Toyota/Lexus doesn't know what they are doing . . .
    They know.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Here's the million dollar question. What will happen to hybrid sales when the new EPA test methods are in place?
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    Of course for some a V12 is a V12 and there is no substitue. That crowd I don't think would buy a Lexus anyway, V12 or not.

    Well said.

    But I can make a even more general statement out of this: that crowd would not buy any car made by non-Caucasian; they will not make friends with any non-Caucasian.
  • samstaytonsamstayton Member Posts: 40
    Some on this board suspect that I am making up these 0-60 times. Nothing could be further than the truth. What bliss would I experience by misstating this fact.

    Do not accuse others in this manner. It can come back and bite you.

    7.1 secs was reported by "consumer reports".

    The 0-60 times are also based on my discussions with some friends at MIT when I was a graduate student there. These were not only mechanical engineering graduate students but other courses too.

    We observed that when the pound to horsepower ratio lies between 10 and 25 the relationship with acceleration times show a linear relationship.

    In other words if lexus LS 430 is 3990 lbs and the SAE power is 280 hp, the power to weight ratio is 14.35.

    The acceleration therefore is 7.2 secs which is half of 14.35 approx.

    Among other variables we accounted for number of gears, torque, rear wheel drive (or AWD, FWD), engine position.

    Rear mid engine, front mid-engine and so on and found that taking these factors into account we were seeing a deviation of at most 0.2 to 0.3 secs from linear co-relation.

    BTW, if you go beyond pound to horsepower ratio of 10. Lets take BMW M5 for example which has 4000 lbs and 500 hp.

    Then the ratio is 8, however, the acceleration is not 4 secs. It is more like 4.4 to 4.5 secs.

    Another secret for all of you who are curious. You need pound to power ratio of 6.6 or lower to get 0-60 times lower than 4 secs.

    And this is one of the current bench marks for confirming a place in super-car arena.
  • mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    C&D did a head-to-head comparo once with several other "classmates" and it achieved 5.9 seconds. So, what are you talking about?
  • samstaytonsamstayton Member Posts: 40
    C&D may be on a cannabis overdose, or their electronic testing gear may be from china, or you may be a disciple of C&D, or C&D may have felt the need to substract over 1 secs from their actual values, who knows.

    The world is full of possibilities.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    While I agree with you in principle that not all of what ad-sellers (that's what magazines are) write can be trusted, the instrument tests are a lot more reliable than the fluff and chicken entrail readings that fill up the rest of the pages that many fans take for gosples.

    ICE engines do not produce flat torque curve like electric engines, and most cars are not hooked up to CVT transmissions. A single transmission shift can take the bulk of a second in some cars . . . there's plenty room for improvement throughout the shift and rev-matching process . . . as well as the transmission-shredding launch if one is inclined to squeeze out the best numbers. All these factors combined, 0-60 is not a simple function of power-to-weight ratio. On top of that, we also have to contend with the politics of the Japanese gentlemen's agreement about not publicly advertising any spec beyond 290hp. That agreement was more or less followed (hence you have NSX, LS400, LS430, original Q45, Nissan Skyline, etc., vastly different cars, all reporting 290 hp or thereabouts) unitl the 2001 introduction of the 2002 Q45. As far as I know, nobody has dyno'ed an LS430.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That's right.
    Which Honda Accord is the most powerful?
    The hybrid!
    0.5 seconds faster than the regular V6.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    And here's why you are completely wrong.

    The Q45 weighs 3801lbs, and has 340hp. Thats just 11lbs per pony, so by your own math, the Q45 should be mopping the floor with the LS. Too bad thats not reality. You're forgetting that an engine is not an on off switch, where it goes from 0hp at 0rpm to 280hp at 1rpm, and stays there. You're forgetting the factors of drivetrain loss, the factors of the gearing, and the factors of the driver doing the launch. Acceleration can NOT be determined by a simple weight / power = acceleration formula.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    In your opinion is there some cause & effect here? XJ sales are not what they should be given the quality of the vehicle.

    Any HELM line benefits from the 'halo effect' a V-12 provides.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ironically, XJS-V12s and XJ12s are less desirable and fetch less money on the used market than their 6 powered counterparts. There's a halo effect, sure, but those old 12s were horrendous maintanence hogs.
  • mikegillermikegiller Member Posts: 602
    Pal, I think there are more possibilities of how efficiently power is laid to the pavement than there are C&D testers fudging results. Speaking of which, C&D typically isn't the biggest fan of Lexus.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    IMO the halo effect of the V-12 was a big plus for Jaguar over many years.

    You are right, though: the V-12 had cooling problems and electrical gremlins. The V-12s aren't easy keepers!
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Hmmmmmmm

    Front end looks like lexus to me? Except for the flared wheel wells...they look beefy and sort of cheap to my eye.

    Don't hold a Candle, well Lexus LS far outsells S in the U.S....
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Did you say you were a student at MIT or FIT?

    Your name dropping doesn't conceal your misinformation about why a car accelerates fast, or for that matter, a Lexus' ability on the road.

    Maybe you should review the "Lexus" book.

    There'll be a test later.

    Not to bore the more experienced members here with what should be "common knowledge", but acceleration is many parts, HP only being one, not so large part of it.

    Driver, torque, transmission, tranny gearing, road condition, even tires can +/- 0.5 secs to your 60 time! EACH!

    Because C&D tests easily refutes your claim of the LS moving at a V8 Pheaton's pace, corroborated by the Lexus IS350 dusting the 330i with a 5.3 time (Lexus, perform on par with the Germans?), doesn't mean C&D had some sweet blow for those tests, or they lied, or their testing gear was made on Friday at a Ford plant.

    It may mean you are just wrong.

    Again. :surprise:

    Clutch the pearls!

    DrFill
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    In other words if lexus LS 430 is 3990 lbs and the SAE power is 280 hp, the power to weight ratio is 14.35.
    The acceleration therefore is 7.2 secs which is half of 14.35 approx.
    ...
    BTW, if you go beyond pound to horsepower ratio of 10. Lets take BMW M5 for example which has 4000 lbs and 500 hp.


    Yeah, there is a math model about power to weight ratio. But who cares?

    The model itself was built upon existing statistical data from many road tests. For us average non-scholar, why look at the model when the road test data itself is readily available? Just read MT, CD, RT ... and you will get the big picture even if they differ about 0.5s.

    The math model maybe useful when we consider a car that does not exist yet, like 2000hp with 800lb weight. For any car that's in a dealership already, just test drive it or read someone else's test drive.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Even things like elevation and the weather can play a huge role. Normally aspirated cars tend to start gasping for air at high elevations, where as forced induction cars lose performance when its too hot out.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I know Lexus is a huge competitor, and is making fantastic strides in terms of performance; I was just saying that it isn't involved in the GERMAN Big Three. It's in a class of its own. Infiniti isn't as luxurious, and Acura is out of the question.

    By the way, not only do I have an Audi, my wife has a Lexus. The car is great, but it's just an RX330. There are faster Lexuses out there.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Can somebody please, please bring up gearing ratios in this discussion, please? And for heaven's sake, people looking for 0-60 times should be going to other forums.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As far as all of this pertains to HELMS, I see these REAL-LIFE choices . . . German ICE's and Diesels . . . and Japanese ICE's and Hybrids (ICE/Electric marriage).

    The battle that may heat up over time could be the German diesel vs. the Japanese hybrid.

    Gotta go. Enjoy the Super Bowl, gents.
    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The site does seem a bit jargony to me, for instance in the LS piece I don't know what "DLO" means. Maybe someone (designman?) can enlighten us.

    Well I&#146;m not an auto designer who is up on the lingo but Google works wonders, so here we stand enlightened…

    DLO = Daylight Opening. It&#146;s a friggin&#146; window plain and simple.

    http://www.cardesignonline.com/miscellany/terminology.php

    In the case of the LS460 I believe he&#146;s referring to what is also known as the Hoffmeister kink in BMWs. However the latter is the fillet in the C-column while the window is the yin-yang, or male-female complement. Anyway, I guess he sees the &#147;Y&#148; shape of a slingshot, hence &#147;slingshot DLO&#148;. For my taste the description is too verbose. I would call it either the kink or fillet and be done with it. Now that we all know what DLO means are we going to be using it around here? I hope not. &#147;Window&#148; should suffice. I&#146;d like to know the etymology of jargon. Some other terms that never made sense to me are &#147;bonnet&#148; and &#147;rocker panel&#148;.

    Yeah, I&#146;ve been to that website and I guess it&#146;s kind of interesting but I don&#146;t think it is revealing in any way. As a designer I usually find critique by designers to be boring (haha). I don&#146;t want to hear their analysis, I&#146;d rather see their portfolios. Frankly, I&#146;m more interested in the input of the end user such as we find in these forums. I&#146;m a person of few words at work when it comes to the subject of work. I always tell people if I have to explain a design, it&#146;s not really cutting it. I present and let people&#146;s reactions tell the story. If I find myself explaining a design it&#146;s because I know it is struggling&#151;that&#146;s when the ability to BS comes in handy, something I avoid like the plague and leave to the loquacious suits as I cringe. And this is Chris Bangle at his best. Flame surfacing is a specious term (bs) invented by Bangle to convince people to buy into what is already done and is too late to change. It&#146;s the noise and hype in the auditorium at the high school football rally.

    Rah rah BMW, bless you Saint Bangle, you had the courage boldly go where... rasberries. In my opinion BMWs are selling in spite of the styling, not because of it. It&#146;s the new engines, the free maintenance, the good lease deals, the equally ugly styling from some of its competitors, brand loyalty, and of course its reputation as a driver&#146;s car that move BMWs.

    I saw the S yesterday. I found the interior to be more elegant than the 7. The dash has the low landscape orientation that I prefer in addition to what I perceive as an art deco demeanor and finer details than the 7 in spite of bearing some resemblance. The instrumentation graphics are minimal and super clear, suits my aging eyes. However that steering wheel is ugly. I was really impressed by the firmness of the seats which seem to complement what I&#146;ve read about the handling. I&#146;m thinking this car goes head to head with the 7 as a sport barge. Even the back seats are hard. Could MB lose some business here because the car is too firm? I really see the LS vs the Germans as apples and oranges. The new LS will do well, so will the German cars. No change in opinion of the exterior. Those fenders suck but people will get used to them. I think MB indicts themselves by sending black launch cars. Indeed, black camouflages the bulges. I do like the rear though.

    Merc, I might do a critique on all Aston styling in one shot since they&#146;re similar. All have sleek curvaceous exterior lines, all have ugly butts, all have heavy-handed interiors that appear to be designed by Harry the handyman. Hmm, that about sums it up&#151;they&#146;re a tale of two cities. I really think they got lazy in the design stage, were derelict in completing the total packages regardless of their redeeming qualities.

    ;-)
  • samstaytonsamstayton Member Posts: 40
    Dr. Fill

    You misbehave a lot. I have already clearly explained the factors we took into account. And they fit with acceleration times for over 90% of the car models. If you do not agree and others do not agree thats okay, may be mathematical modeling is not for you.

    I have been so nice to you in the past I hope you reciprocate too.

    I do not agree with C&D results and that is the end of it. No more agruments.

    On the side note, if you fit power to weight ratio and acceleration times of audi A8 it perfectly fits the linear dependence. Apparently audi correctly stated their test results and did not become over optimistic.

    4288 lbs/335 hp. = 12.8 , acceleration: 6.4 secs.

    From mathematical model: 6.5 secs.

    From Audi: 6.3 secs.

    All three values match closely.

    Similarly, A8 W12: 4729 lbs/ 450 hp = 5.25 secs

    Math model : 5.2 secs

    Audi's published data: 5.0 secs

    All values match closely. There are no 1 sec or more differences between theory and empirical results.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I would rather talk about the Bangle style and influence on the LPS thread since the 5 series has been his major opus, but he was criticized here, so I thought I should give my response to it.

    I can't see people going for a car that is as ugly as has been stated above no matter how enticing the deals or how wonderful the car drives.

    People are very style conscious and will not get a car they perceive is embarrassing to be seen in. I for sure wouldn't.

    Cases in point-the endless discussions on style on Edmunds and the anticipation of seeing all the new models at the auto show.
    Why do all the folks attend? They can't drive any of the vehicles. It's for style, baby!
    Style is a very important factor and one can't down play it as if people are buying the 5 series in spite of Chris Bangle's design.

    Of course, when the 5 series is up 42.8% in one year, you must give some credit to Chris Bangle, as playing a significant role in this success story, like it or not.
    And if you refuse to admit it, I believe the word is "raspberries."
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    No offense to owners of Audi's, but VW/Audi is known for having some of the biggest drive train losses. You can't be serious in suggesting that a formula derived from a few Audi models would fit all other cars, much less other car brands. FWD, RWD, and AWD all have different drive train parasitic power loss even within the same company; if all companies make cars equally efficient, why do we bother choose different brands at all?? The theory about 0-60 being a simply linear function of power-to-weight ratio alone makes about as much sense as claiming that interior luxury level is a function of seat size . . . just because it fits 3-5-7 and A4-A6-A8 as well as C-E-S, the theory is still invalid when comparing vehicles across different makes. Otherwise, we'd all be debating For Expedition vs. Chevy Suburban ;-)

    In fact, the linearity can be disproved by simply switching a final-drive cog in an existing car . . . no hp change, almost no weight change, but 0-60 will be drasticly different.
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