High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · February 2006

A Blurb on future cars says the LS460 has a 7 speed transmission and 350HP. Can't these bozos even read a press release?

tagman · February 2006

looks like they're missing a gear up in the old noggin

TagMan

brightness04 · February 2006

Are you serious? at 100mph, 50 yards pass by every second . . . how far ahead do your headlights go? human reaction time is 0.6 seconds, and it certainly takes more than 0.4 seconds to turn a car in a deliberate manurever fashion in order to avoid flipping a car at 100mph. At 100mph, clipping a deer's foot may well flip a car. Something is missing.

merc1 · February 2006

No it isn't just you. You're right is about the cars as DrFill seems to think. Its just plain tacky advertising IMO, but everything has to do with sales as doc points out. Its a one-track issue.

M

merc1 · February 2006

I'd call it just annoying, especially his voice. To wannabe sounding for me. Everyone has a blowout sale in Dec, but they clearly aren't all done in the same manner. Thankfully.

M

brightness04 · February 2006

Lexus having engineers from countries in which they don't even sell/compete in, looking over their cars says wannabe to me.

Are MB and BMW sold in the US engineered by their European engineers or by American design studios alone? US is by far the most competitive market for MB and BMW; if they don't dissect the market leader in the US for analysis, what do they dissect?

brightness04 · February 2006

Goes to show how hopeless it is trying to gather information by reading rags.

ljflx · February 2006

MT - 7 speed and 350HP; Lexus press release 8 speed and 380HP. Are they that bad, did they intentionally try to downplay the car or do they not know what the number 8 looks like?? As well they made no mention of gas mileage or 0-60 times and played the design as more aggressive but included a line that said "while some will still find its styling a bit sterile". Don't expect Lexus to win any comparos in this auto rag. They've already shown their bias.

lexusguy · February 2006

The interior changed pretty dramatically though. The most interesting thing I think, is that there is A LOT less wood for '07 than there was for '02. The center stack is a 1000% improvement though. The way Lexus integrated the NAV system in the '02 car was terrible, very un-Lexuslike. It was almost as if they decided to offer NAV at the 11th hour, and shoe horned an Alpine flip-out system in the dash, and scribbled Lexus on it.

benzster · February 2006

Long version:
I was trapped behind 2 cars traveling side by side at 70 mph. Cars were backing up behind them. I ran up behind the driver in the RH lane to try and "persuade" him to slow down in retaliation. When he did it created a gap between the 2 cars as the LH lane driver pulled ahead. I pulled into the LH lane and passed the RH driver, then pulled into the RH lane to pass.

My wife yelled DOG! Then changed to DEER! She jumped into the RH lane and stopped facing me. I squared off for a full frontal impact. Then she turned her head to the LH lane and made one step which made her now sideways in the lane. I figured she was committed, so I swerved right just catching her rear lower leg.

Luckily there was a strong cross wind that night and I had the "sport" setting on to reduce steering correction efforts. I ended up crossing hands with most of the vehicle on the emergency lane.

Remember, I was passing in the right lane so there was a vehicle beside me on the left and behind me. Hard panic braking was out of the question.

The impact spun the deer between the car to my left and myself. I could see headlights under her in my drivers side mirror as she tried to raise up. She was now in the LH lane in front of a semi. It's lights started bouncing up and down violently as is swerved to the left.

and that........

is the rest of the story.

Good day.

She cracked the lower cowling and a bumper grill came up missing. Lucky me with 350 miles on the vehicle.

tagman · February 2006

You'll get even . . . At least in your neck of the woods you get a deer hunting season . . . usually around Thanksgiving, isn't it?

Out here in California, if we shoot Bambie, we're criminals.

TagMan

mikegiller · February 2006

It really makes you wonder exactly what the hell they were looking at when writing that article. Seriously, who was the proof reader, and who was the editorialist? Shouldn't they know about cars and....

Sorry, just boggles the mind a tad hey?

:confuse:

Crack babies.

One of the biggest releases of the year and they can't even get their facts straight. Why haven't they changed it yet too?

Totally unqualified to do what they are doing.

ljflx · February 2006

They spent a few pages on a Maybach right before it - a car that about 200 people have bought so far - and acted like everyone had to know every fact about it. Then they closed it out by saying it was an 11/10ths S65AMG. God only knows what they are thinking - but my read of the LS460 blurb was the mis-representatin of the LS460 highlights was not an accident.

tagman · February 2006

my read of the LS460 blurb was the mis-representatin of the LS460 highlights was not an accident.

ljflx - - "your read" that Motor Trend Magazine DELIBERATELY mis-represented the LS460 highlights! . . .

is based on what evidence?

TagMan

mikegiller · February 2006

Where do you confuse an 8 speed transmission for a 7 speed transmission, and then, 380 hp for 350 hp. They down sized both specs, and on top of it I cannot find any information that may have mislead the MT dudes/dudettes. No matter which way you look at it, it was extremely unprofessional. How do you circumcise the unveiling of one of the biggest stars at the auto show that much?

If Autospies got it right, don't you think MT should at least? I mean, this is laughable!

To me, one-upping the S-class transmission to 8 speeds strikes as a big deal. We aren't talking about an entry-level Kia here...

I really don't know what else to say.

ljflx · February 2006

I'm a numbers guy - when I see one mistake it's an accident. When I see two in the same paragraph I throw out what I see as bogus. I wonder if they have it right on their website. If it is still uncorrected there then they are as unprofessional as it gets. However you look at it - a double mistake or deliberate - they look awful. The whole downplaying of the car leads me to believe it was deliberate. You don't miss a story on an 8 speed tranny.

tagman · February 2006

ljflx -- As I said earlier, I think the gear that was missing was the one in their noggin.

I just don't think they are very smart.

DELIBERATE? --- nah.

PATHETIC? --- Oh yeah.

STUPID? --- Oh yeah.

Do I care too much what they say? --- no way!

The main use I have for the rags is that they get to put the cars through the serious paces that we generally can't do on our test drives. It's entertainment. Other than that . . . I have little use for them.

TagMan

merc1 · February 2006

Dare I say you and other Lexus fans are making way too much out of absolutely nothing. Motor Trend gains what again by trying to intentionally misrepresent the facts on the LS460? Does that make any sense?

If you look at page 107 in the March issue of Motor Trend it clearly shows a picture of the LF-SH Concept, not the production LS460. This likely means that as the March issue went to press (likely early Jan/late Dec), they for one didn't have the offical specs and they certainly didn't have the pics of the production car. The writeup clearly states "with an expected 350hp and seven speed automatic", meaning they were speculating. You'll notice none of the monthly automags have any Detroit pictures from the actual show, just writeups based on info given right before the show. In the April issue of MT you'll see pics and info right from the show floor in Detroit.

Are they still biased at the end of article when they state: "Is it possible to get even more perfect"?

The Maybach 57S has been out in Europe since late last year and all the mags have driven it already at its press introduction, unlike the LS460. The Maybach 57S isn't a new car like the LS460, it really is just and engine/interior update of an existing car, meaning there really isn't much to "know".

I can't believe you actually think MT would try to deliberately downplay any particular car when the truth of the matter is their information was speculation as the March issue likely went to press before the official info came out.

All this about they've shown their "bias" is really ridiculous IMO. Magazines speculate all the time until they get the offical info to press. You know full well they will have the correct specs next month after having been given/seen the correct info at Detroit.

I can see it now, you'll use this printing/timing issue (which is really a non-issues) as the basis of a "they're biased" excuse if the LS460 doesn't ace the inevitable comparo MT will have once they can get the LS460/750/S550/A8 together.

Just for the record their website (you know the media that can be updated with no delay) has the correct information. Their website has had this information posted since the car was introduced at the show, clearly before the magazine went to press.

M

tagman · February 2006

merc1 - dude, when you get it right . . . you get it RIGHT!

Excellent analysis of the situation.

Just when I thought you might be laying low . . . WHAM!

Thanks.

TagMan

garyh1 · February 2006

Thanks for the reality check, Merc. Definitely too much hyperventilating and conspiracy theorizing was going on here.

mikegiller · February 2006

merc1, you are so full of... KIDDING!!!

I believe you hit the nail on the head. Had I known that the information was from the March issue of MT and not on their website I would have said, "That is a good estimate, but I think it will have more power."

Since I work at a publishing company, I know that the whole process of putting a magazine together from the sales cycle, editorial content, to the layout, and then printing process can take several months. I forgive them. Then again, there isn't much to say sorry about on their side...

A simple misunderstanding.

merc1 · February 2006

Well I just thought that was a little too much. I mean all magazines have their biases for sure when they test cars, but to claim they are giving incorrect figures on a car they haven't even seen/driven (at press time) on purpose is just too much.

I just got Automobile Magazine today and they have a few pics from the Detroit Autoshow right from the floor so they obviously went to press much later than MT did, and yes their stats on the LS460 are correct.

M

callmedrfill · February 2006

In our "virtual reality", with news reaching us as it happens, many times we forget how far the Internet has taken us forward.

Makes monthly car mags seem like carrier pidgeons!

God Bless the Intranet!

DrFill

mikegiller · February 2006

"Makes monthly car mags seem like carrier pidgeons!"

Freegin' hilarious!!!

Carrier pigeons with attitude!... Oh, and a lot of advertising dollars! I swear, they could give the magazine away for free and still make a profit.

tagman · February 2006

Here's a little blurb on the World's Fastest Luxury Sedan.

If you don't already know . . . do you want to guess before you look?

OK, here it is:

link title

Fast enough? Nothing about the price . . . but I guess if you need to know . . . well . . . you know the saying.

TagMan

lexusguy · February 2006

Yawn. Let me know when they strap Pratt & Whittney J-58 ramjets on the trunk. Now that would be a fast car.

jagman2 · February 2006

I am not sure I am in the correct area but I am looking for some feedback on how much "negotiating room" I may find in purchasing a new Q from dealer inventory. I haven't bought a new luxury vehicle in 15 years (the '91 LS400 stills runs great) and I know this vehicle is in a different category. Any help would be appreciated. Jagman

pat · February 2006

okay? Anyone who has comments about topic management is welcome to send them to me in an email. It's not appropriate to divert any discussion to that kind of conversation.

(Yah, had to off a few posts, sorry)

Thanks!

lexusguy · February 2006

The Maserati is a fabulous car. I wouldnt expect to be able to hang on to it for 15 years, though.

What do you think of the LS460?

blckislandguy · February 2006

A recent post on the Porsche 911 board has me convinced that Maser resale is awful. Accordingly, I'd look for a left over or a northern dealer with too many in stock. Last week's Automotive News, a trade journal that is must reading for any car nut, reports that they are having a hard time selling the Q because it doesn't come with an auto. Apparently, the demo it sells to cross shops it with the Bentley GT which does have a slush box. The Automotive News has classifieds where dealers try to sell surplus/hard to sell new vehicles (e.g., Dodge Ram SR10 V10 two wheel drive pickups) to other dealers. Maybe you would find a dealer in there with too many 110K Qs for his area.

lexusguy · February 2006

Well, the last Maseratis in the US before they took a long vacation from selling here were terrible cars, so I wouldnt expect resale to be great. I've seen a few '05 Quattroportes on Ebay with a few thousand miles on the odo for around $90K.

tagman · February 2006

If you go back and read the many posts, there's a consistent theme that is present. The Lexus camp makes claim to the reliability factor, and the Euro camp makes claim to the styling/performance factors.

It is interesting that there is a diminished forfeiture of those claims from the opposing side. For example, the Lexus camp's claim to reliability is higher on the scale than the Euro camp's willingness to agree, although there is some noticeable concession.

Conversely, the Euro camp's claim to superior styling/performance is higher on the scale than the Lexus camp's willingness to agree, although, again, there is some concession.

Overall, if you measure the claims, and measure the concessions, it would seem that there is enough indication to conclude that there is truth to the claims, but not to the full level that is actually claimed.

So, a neutral bystander would easily ascertain that the Lexus is in fact more reliable than the Eurocars, and that the Eurocars in fact have superior styling and/or performance.

When reviewing the posts, the Lexus camp's defense of their prize vehicles often reveals itself to be a style comparable to cheerleading. "Go Lexus, Go! . . . Win! Win! Win!"

The Eurocars defense style can be similar at times, but is often a style that compares more to playing "king of the hill".

Also revealed . . . a little envy that travels in both directions. Do the Lexus fans wish their prized vehicles had more styling and handling? I think it leaks out that they do, and is occasionally accompanied with remarks of this suggestive style, "The new models will have better styling . . . We've got you now! Go Lexus, Go! Win! Win! Win!"

Conversely, do the Eurocar fans wish their prized vehicles had greater reliability? I think it leaks out that they do, and is occasionally accompanied with remarks of this suggestive style, "I'm sure they are aware of the problems and are working on it . . . the new models are likely to be more reliable."

So, what's it all mean? It means the buyer has to make some hard choices that leave some desireable factors on the table.

Bottom line . . . which is more important or preferable? . . . reliability with a lesser degree of styling and performance . . . or styling and performance with a lesser degree of reliability?

Would it be a wild guess that some folks in each camp might claim to have it all, especially in "new and upcoming models"?

Tough choice for some. Not so for others.

Just for the record, when confronted with this choice, I choose style and/or performance. For me, it is more satisfying. Why do I make that choice? Simple. You can fix a malfunction, but you can't fix the styling!

TagMan

docnukem · February 2006

You can fix a malfunction, but you can't fix the styling!

Conversely, you can get to where you're going with or without style, but not if your vehicle won't move.

Six of one, half dozen of the other...

tagman · February 2006

you can get to where you're going with or without style, but not if your vehicle won't move.

Six of one, half dozen of the other...

Nice perspective, doc, but . . . Really? You think they are equivalent? Try this difference:

Your "non-moving" malfunction is quite temporary . . . Your weak styling is quite permanent.

TagMan

tayl0rd · February 2006

... Your weak styling is quite permanent.

Not necessarily. Honda Civics are converted to 3-series BMWs and Ford Mustangs all the time! :P :confuse: :sick:

benzster · February 2006

Agreed on all points. You can loose fat, but ugly goes to the bone.
I think the perception of a direct correlation between price and reliability is wrong.

Does the person that buys a Porsche, Masseratti, or Ferrari, expect the same level of reliability out of a similar priced Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus?

I know my sunroof is reliable because it is manual. If it were electric, featured one touch express, heated, voice activated, presafe system operational, pinch feature equipped, summer/globally operated from individually programmable key fobs, large enough to fit a cow thru, or made up of individual panels that stack like a deck of cards...... I would not expect the same (especially on a standard 12v system).

What say you?

designman · February 2006

It has become really hard for me to choose a HELM or LPS from the current and new crop. There isn't one vehicle among them that I really want. Every car is a compromise. This wasn't the case when I bought my 03 530. Both my wife and I knew we wanted it.

Throughout my car-buying career, there has always been a sedan I wanted. No more. What happened? There's a lot of horrible styling out there, and the ones that are decent come with one sort of baggage or another.

One minute I think it would be the XJ, another minute the A8 and yet another, the 7. I sincerely doubt whether the LS will be stiff enough. Who knows, could be the S.

Down a class it would be between the 5 and A6. But like I said, no burning desire anywhere. My long-time heart throb BMW shafted me big time.

:sick:

docnukem · February 2006

If your car won't get you to your wedding/job interview/emergency room/court date, that may have some permanent consequences. You can always buy a new car if you really don't like the styling, but you must not think it ugly if you bought it in the first place.

You realize I am playing devil's advocate. A reliable MB or a stylish Lexus (and beauty is clearly in the eye of the beholder, anyway) would be a home run (if money were no object).

To add to your earlier comments about "camps", I think you need to consider that the "style" camp is also partly the "making-a-statement" camp, while the "reliability" camp is more of the "practical, get-from-point-A-to-point-B-in-comfort" camp.

If you'll allow me to switch into Hpowders mode for a moment...I obviously chose not to compromise on styling, performance or reliability, thanks to the Infiniti M. :P

grandaddy · February 2006

A lot of truth there, but...no question in my mind that the BMW has better performance, likewise the Lexus is more reliable, but as far as style, comfort, and just all around good looks and proper intergration of everything...I'll take the Lexus...meaning, of course, the LS.

To use the analogy already on the thread. The LS will not only get you there but it will do so with grace and style whereas the BMW might get you there, might get you there sooner provided you have to complete a slalom along the way.

bdr127 · February 2006

Conversely, you can get to where you're going with or without style, but not if your vehicle won't move. '

Regardless of how unreliable a particular car may be, it will never always be in the shop... but an ugly, non-dynamic car will always be ugly and non-dynamic.

benzster · February 2006

Wow, did everyone get up on the right side of the bed this morning!?
I have been to a few on track training sessions. The most memorable was the Lexus, BMW, and MB comparison. We drove, removed the interior, and had classroom feature benefit price training.
It was very interesting swapping from one to another driving in all conditions. This was a while ago, but the vehicles were the C Class', 3 series', and ES300. With the slk thrown in for good measure. It really gave a good perspective on manufacturer focus.

$.02 I once thought the most beautiful car was the Jag conv. but the new Porsche is HOT!

hpowders · February 2006

the best of both because since 1993, I have had 3 BMW's and only had to bring the vehicles in for routine oil changes, chocolate chip cookies and hot chocolate.

I find it hard to believe that I am the lucky one among thousands.

If BMW means unreliability, give me excess of it!

docnukem · February 2006

I have had 3 BMW's and only had to bring the vehicles in for oil changes, chocolate chip cookies and hot chocolate.

My car doesn't take cookies and cocoa. :confuse: Where do you add them?

Is this some funky new biodiesel?

hpowders · February 2006

!!!

benzster · February 2006

If you tell me the CC cookie formula, I will tell you how urine will make it run cleaner.
New MB diesel reference.

tagman · February 2006

Out of 365 days in the year, those notorious "less-reliable-than-a-Lexus" Eurocars are in the shop . . . what? . . . a couple of days, here or there? . . . except for hpowders' car, of course

. . . but those "other" cars that are missing great styling and/or performance are stuck with weak styling and/or weak performance every one of those 365 days.

The exception to all of this is leap year, of course, when the Eurocar is forced to spend it's extra day in the shop, and the weak-styling car is not allowed to be seen in public. :P

TagMan

pat · February 2006

Opinions of styling and the importance thereof are entirely subjective. I realize there are a number of you here who share the same viewpoint on German styling vs. any other, but that doesn't make you right, it just means you have the same viewpoint.

Others have a different viewpoint. That doesn't make them wrong. It just means they have, as indeed they are entitled, a different opinion.

And the world goes 'round and 'round.

tagman · February 2006

When it comes to choosing a vehicle to purchase that might be closing in on six figures, it is always a challenge to weigh out the reliability vs. style vs. performance factors . . . simply because no single car (except hpowders' car, of course,

), even at those lofty price figures, can really claim to offer EVERYTHING perfectly. SO . . . we make choices and compromises, even at the upper price tiers. It's interesting to hear the viewpoints on these preferences of style as opposed to reliability. And YES, they are ALL valid opinions, and it is VERY nice to see the forum alive again today with good, positive, and fun posts. Don't you agree?

TagMan

benzster · February 2006

And the world goes 'round and 'round

Don't you mean "♫ and the wheel goes round and round ♫" refering to the Bridgestone tire commercial featuring the Mercedes-Benz (before McLaren changed to Michelin days.
:P :P :P

grandaddy · February 2006

Tagman has it right. In the end we all vote with our wallets, so you know we are damn well committed to our choice when it comes to laying out 50 or 60 grand. I do not know of many people who want to admit that they made a $60,000. mistake!! That's why we have such strong opinions! (especially those Euro guys)

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