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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    how Mercedes drivers are snobs and Lexus drivers somehow are not...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You'd thimk ABC is standard equipment on a Benz the way MB fans talk about it. When I was shopping MB I asked the salesmen about ABC. His response was that it was a nice to have feature but hardly needed. I then asked how often it was optioned in. Response - 1 in 10 cars. So please - stop the nonsesnse. 10% of the buyers opt for a technology that is not needed and maybe is used 1-10% of the time on a good day.

    The difference between Lexus and MB on the technology front is that Lexus pours its' money into things you enjoy all the time. A radio may be something un-important to some people on this board but to Lexus buyers its more important than ABC.

    A Lexus buyer wants a supreme luxury ride with a royalty like cabin. A BMW buyer doesn't. They prefer a hard riding car. That is called carving out your customer base and has nothing to do with which car is better. The fact that the 7 has never sold more than 18k cars in a year is an indication of where the preferences lie in this niche.

    Does anyone in his right mind think that Toyota, who has a financial position MB and BMW can only dream of, couldn't match MB innovations if it thought it was prudent? They take a more common sense American approach while MB and BMW duke it out to be king of Europe.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    Active Body Control IS standard on some models. The S55, S600, CL500, CL600, CL55, SL500 and the upcoming SL55. This is brand new stuff, rest assured it will permeate the line-up in time.

    Quiet is not a Lexus only option. I tested a new LS430 and my '98 750 back to back one day. The BMW was noticably more quiet and rode smoother than the Lexus. To be fair, I suspect the dual pane windows unique to the 750(in BMWs line) made this possible. None of these cars is going to make your ears bleed, you are splitting hairs on this subject.

    ljflx, you make a very important point. These cars all have sublte niches in the high lux arena. Lexus offers value and excellent customer care. They cover most of the bases and provide a price leader in the segment. BMW used to be the home of the sporty driver. I am sadly dissappointed by the new 7, a column shifter in a drivers car??? Yet they raise the bar again with the latest design. MB seems to have several irons in the fire. They are providing technological innovation with ABC and brake by wire systems. They are trying to take a bite out of BMWs niche with the AMG cars, every line has one now. They are admittedly playing catch-up to Lexus in customer service and initial quality. All of this and still trying to foster its long heritage.

    "innovative climate control" on a '95 LS400?? You mean the one they plagarized from the new in '92 S-Class? Actually they didn't have four zone until the LS430 did they?

    To deny that Lexus takes others ideas and implements them after the competition brings them to market would be to deny the facts.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What is going on here? Lexus innovators?? Not even. CD players, Navigation systems and stereos wow (!), those are really big things that have really proven crucial to the advancement of the autombile. What bs. Car quality is not an innovation, it's a necessity. Mercedes-Benz has always led the luxury car market, with Lexus being their main follower. Mercedes' seats have had their own "suspension" for years, springs and all. Again another minor thing that is being passed off as a major innovation. SBC is a innovation, ESP is an innovation, ABC is an innovation. If designing a stereo is a innovation, then the Ford Focus SVT, Mazda MP3, Sentra SE-R and others are innovators too right?

    ljflx,

    What are you talking about? ABC is used anytime you manuver the car. It keeps the driver and
    passengers from being tossed around and keeps the body level. I find it ironic that the features that get knocked are NOT on Lexus cars. People don't buy 60K cars based on their stereos, if any do that's saddening. Oh Toyota will try to match these features, once they've had time to study them.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    When was the last time anyone got tossed around in your car? It has never happened to me in 30 years of driving. Maybe if your driving like Mario Andretti, as Antiosama says, it can happen but who drives like that in an S-class or in any luxury sedan. And when do you have a chance anyway? Every S-class driver I'm behind brakes on a curve. My point is that it may be a bragging point but it's in 10% of S-class cars and maybe 1% of all MB cars and while it may be in use 100% of the time I'll bet most people couldn't tell the difference between a car with it or without it.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    ...you're wrong. It is very easy to detect. The car has NO body roll, yet the ride remains compliant.

    The biggest stumbling block in this discussion is different priorities when buying a car. I think the Lexus guys are correct, many people would prefer a better stereo system over a better suspension system. Many lux car buyers are most concerned about the quiet smooth ride, not the cars handling. Many lux car buyers have absolutely no need for the "extras" MB provides, thus the extra money would be spent foolishly.

    I personally have a different set of priorities. After several driving schools and tons of track time in my Porsche, I have developed an affinity for the way a car drives. The BMW and MB products cater to this more than the Lexus. I also greatly prefer the styling on the Germans, just a personal preferance again.

    I am not alone in these preferances. I have many friends in the P-car club that choose luxo sedans on the same criteria. I have yet to see a Lexus in one of these guys garages. Nothing wrong with the car, it just appeals to people for different reasons. I don't think being a snob is one of them, not in my experience anyway.

    I also believe the Germans are better engineered cars. The premium price is relfected in areas you do not see. This is convienient for Lexus, the less demanding (performance wise) Lexus owners will never notice, or care. I do, I pay the premium, I enjoy the superior feel of my cars. I think they are worth every extra penny. I certainly don't blame you for feeling otherwise.
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    "When was the last time anyone got tossed around in your car?" ljflx, you are being brutally unfair to our friend merc1. Driving his Mitsu as the "enthusiast" he claims to be, I suspect that many things -- animate and inanimate -- get tossed around regularly. And I am not surprised that the arrested adolescents among us credit only "advances" that allow them to drive their cars at speeds that threaten their own lives and those of others, and simultaneously deprecate mundane contributions such as mere "reliability" and "customer service." There are many among those who BUY these cars (as opposed to reviewing them or drooling over their pictures in magazines) that value things other than marginally better skidpad performance or the timbre of the exhaust note with which we can wake up the neighbors.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh boy so you've never made a sharp turn or abrupt manuver? Right. Anyway my point was you and others are only knocking ABC because Lexus doesn't have it. Period. ABC is not even tuned for "performance" on most S-Class models, the S55 being the exception to that rule. It's mainly for comfort, i.e. keeping the car level no matter what.

    nealm1,

    And you're reasoning is why Lexus cars are looked up as great cars, but no fun to drive, basically a yawning coffin. This whole thing got started with one word innovations. Neither of you can point to a true innovation like ABC or SBC from Lexus. Yeah and I guess anyone of these cars here has an exhaust that will wake up the neighbors right. Your ridiculous statement about exhuasts fits. Yawn.

    M
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    ...of course there is me. I have bought these cars. I prefer the marginally better skidpad performance and I am a sucker for the timbre of a finely tuned exhaust. I live in a decidedly rural part of America. I enjoy using these cars at speed on deserted country lanes.


    Merc, I think we found a lexus snob! nealm1 is throwing some stones here. Well buddy, take a look at my stable, and how I use them. You will see pics of my V12 cars, my Porsche on the racetrack and my Geleandewagen way off the road. I buy my vehicles with purposeful use in mind. I find the German vehicles are better at their targeted purpose, unlike Lexus which seems to take the "shotgun" approach. They make cars for people who just want you to think that they are conneseurs. They appeal to the masses, certainly not to auto enthusiasts. http://homepage.mac.com/bwinterholm

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh he definitely is that, and a bore too. I'll take a look.

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I just posted this in another discussion, but I see now that it needs to be said here even more loudly.

    Please debate your thoughts and opinions WITHOUT the name-calling and personal insults. If you must include personal attacks in your messages, it sure looks like you don't have any facts or opinions worth stating.

    Besides, you know the Membership Agreement requires civil and respectful discourse.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    No one with a brain (or a sense of history) would deny the accomplishments of MB or BMW. No one who has driven the 7 or the S would deny that they are terrific cars. And I can tolterate -- even enjoy -- the Deutschland-uber-ales cheerleading that comes from fans of both brands. What I find inconceivable is the delight supposedly mature adults take in "racing" ANY car on a crowded urban expressway (here the Kennedy) finding sport in passing a tractor trailer on the shoulder of the road. There are ways to get your jollies without risking the lives of others. THAT is why I said grow up. Before you kill yourself.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm not knocking ABC. I'm sure it's a marvelous engineering feat. I'm saying it is hardly ever purchased in the first place. Why over-engineer a car? Reminds me of the technology guys I had to deal with that want perfection in a product at all costs but the market won't pay or opt for it. I appreciate that V-12 power is one of the guys that likes that perfection, notices subtle differences in a car, can afford it and has no issue paying for it. But he's an exception to the rule not a standard. Most MB S-class buyers obviously pass on it.

    You act like I'm jealous that Lexus doesn't have it? Who cares. If they developed it and offered it I'd pass on it. My point is simple - Lexus is trying to appeal to the masses and makes strategic decisions based on things those masses will appreciate the most. That is always a smart business strategy. Besides do you really think a company like Lexus couldn't develop it?? They have virtually unlimited capital resources and they reside in a country where engineers have to construct buildings to withstand powerful earthquakes. You think thoses engineers couldn't do whatever they wanted with a car?
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    Why don't you consider consolidating the 2 "high end" boards. They are virtually indistinguishable as they are now. The Euro/Japanese/Amer. title is probably closest to a compromise without listing specific models.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    You have summerized my view nicely. Lexus is trying to appeal to the masses. As you have noted this is smart business practice. I think they are also smart to allow others to develop much of the newest technology. Then they can pass on certain new tech items that probably wouldn't help sales anyway. All of these things make it easy for Lexus to offer a premium car at a lower price.

    Could they do it? I think it is foolish to assume otherwise. You are correct, they have the resources to be a leader.

    One notion that seems to lurk around here, and any discussion of premium autos, is the one that says people buy MB just for status. I think that is a bit insulting to the owners of any of these cars.You generally do not amass the wealth to buy one of these cars by being foolish or wasteful. I do not think I am a big minority among buyers of the S-Class or 7 series. There are tons of people that prefer the driving feel of the MB. They are willing to pay the premium for that largely intangible feature. Undoubtably the Lexus is a fine machine, and a superb value at that. There must be plenty of people that also value the German driving experience. I think you are kidding yourself when you assume MB or BMW buyers are only concerned with the badge on the hood. If you really did not like the car that much better, what is the reason for spending sooo much more. I just do not accept that it is because the owners are shallow badge snobs. Like I stated before, that has definately NOT been my experience.

    I would be willing to bet that in many cases, speaking to the owner of a new MB or BMW would yeild a very different conversation than the one with a new Lexus owner. The MB and BMW guys I know could site all kinds of techno info about their cars. I think the Lexus owner is much less likely to be interested in the mechanical workings of their car. Different strokes for different folks. Just don't pass of MB and BMW owners a dupes because they could have had the Lexus for less. Accept that they may just really appreciate their cars for very different reasons than you love your Lexus.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I have been trying to say that for so long. Somehow some of these Lexus advocates are telling me that the only reason to buy a Mercedes is for the badge snobery. They go spouting mercedes drivers are snobs...etc.

    A Lexus may be cheaper but it still is in the luxury car class(READ: Wasted money!). People buy luxury cars because they want luxury cars. They don't need luxury cars. That would make a Lexus driver just as snobby, under your own conditions, as a Mercedes driver.

    Get over it...Mercedes owners drive their cars for their own reasons, which may or may not be what you think they are. To some it is worth the extra money, and for you it isnt. No big deal.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Not a statement I ever made. I almost bought the S-class. Had I done so I wouldn't want anyone saying I was a snob. I drive around my town and I see many people who own both a MB and a Lexus so I'm not sure I agree with your point. In some cases it's an E and an an ES-300. One guy has an LS430 and an S-430. Be interesting to get his viewpoint. I'm sure one is his and the other's his wife's. Heck - I almost took an E instead of the second LS430 for a job change that required driving 120 miles a day last year. But I thought the E had a ridiculous lease deal and I preferred the comfort and roominess of another big lux car in the end. There are many that have S or E class cars (or BMW's) interspersed with LX470's and Landcruisers. It's funny but rarely do I see a Range Rover. I rarely see your situation though - a BMW and an MB under one roof. Where I live though Lexus and MB are far more popular than BMW's. The point is that as much as we debate the cars there are many cross-bred owners. A guy in my parking garage at work just matched his old body S-500 with an SC430. I cringe when I go past either of his cars because he's parked right at the edge of a row where many turns are made and there isn't a lot of space for turning.

    The bottom line is most people who own or lease these cars make 250-500k or more per year and have accumulated wealth or have equity positions that will give them future wealth. There are many who consider anyone in that bracket to either be a snob, be perceived as a snob or be eligible to be called a snob. What can you do?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If you had read what I posted you would have known that I wasn't a part of that. I was merely telling you what I saw that night driving home. Loosen up some, if you live in the Chicago area you know full well that this is going on right now, there is nothing you nor I can do about it, so just drive defensively and don't worry about it. And I take it you've never driven your LS430 past 65 mph then right? If you have then be quiet, you're just as bad.

    ljflx,

    Overengineering as you put it is part of the Mercedes way or tradition. How do you know that ABC is hardly ever ordered? For one it's standard on the S600/CL600, S55, CL500, CL55 and new SL500 so it's out there in decent numbers, and there people right here on Edmunds in the S-Class topic that have it on their S500's so some do think it's a legitimate option. I'm sure Lexus could come up with something like ABC, they've had 3 years to study it complements of MB. If they have all this engineering prowess why don't they ever come up with something first? Not everyone wants a car that appeals to everyone, some want something that stands out from the herd. ABC is one of the reasons MB cars do.

    v12power,

    Post # 1318, exactly!

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Maybe the whole snob issue is not aimed at the people who buy the cars but at the manufacturers particularly MB and BMW but more so MB. I never see anyone saying anything about Audi. Remember the statements of these companies. MB - "if we build it they will come". BMW - "We are BMW and we do what we want". If the brand is viewed as snobbish then the spillover to the consumers who buy it can be expected. Lexus has been humble up to the last few years but their new one - "isn't it time you deserve a Lexus" will get them the snobbish view also.

    Merc1 - you confuse business strategies with auto enthusiast desires. Lexus has executed their strategy spectacularly. They don't care about a few auto enthusiast opinions. Guaranteed though - that will change over time probably in the next couple of years.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You might be right about the business vs desire point about carmaking. As always I appreciate your business take on the doings of these things. Ahh...I've been waiting on someone to mention Audi...my underdog favorite. Audi is the new up and coming brand in most luxury car buyers minds (though they go back almost as far as MB), they don't have the pretensions of MB or BMW. A lot of people like that, me included. I'm pulling for Audi all the way......

    By the way I saw two 745i's tonight, in black. They both looked good to me (this time). The look is sort of growing on me.

    M
  • bernard1bernard1 Member Posts: 58
    Merc1 - Funny you should mention Audi. We are serioulsly considering the S8 but will probably wait another year for the body style to update and see what new innovations they release to compare with the 745i.

    IJFX - You make some good points as well. Lexus has performed their business plan well. I know that for awhile Lexus offered a European sport ride for their LS430, but have discontinued it as their customers didn't perfer that ride on a Lexus. I know we perfer that type of ride on our BMW and P-car, not our Lexus.

    The first to introduce a technical innovation or a safety innovation, I would have to give to MB and BMW. But not a day goes by that I wouldn't love to see MB, P-car and BMW have a stereo and a DVD nav system like Lexus.

    All of these marques have their good and bad points but have you ever asked someone who owns both a BMW /Lexus or a MB/Lexus which one they would give up? I believe most will say, neither one. I know, we wouldn't.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I see you have the LX470. How do you like it? I have an 01 and I'm still amazed that a truck as massive as that rides like a luxury sedan. I also didn't hear that they stopped production on the euro sport package. Are you sure they did?

    By the way anyone reading the GS board where there is a discussion that just about all Lexus models are on the verge of redesign. My Lexus sales guy had told me the LS430 may get a complete redesign for 2004 but someone there is saying it will actually happen for 2003.
  • bernard1bernard1 Member Posts: 58
    Love our LX. Purchased new in 99 and haven't had any problems. Rides like a luxury sedan and makes it hard to go after a sedan. I looked at the LS430 but could not give up the LX for the LS. According to my Lexus dealer, demand was low for the European option so they discontinued it. He may be wrong, but I haven't seen it offered of late.

    It's Ok with me because when it comes to the sport ride, BMW wins hands down. I use the Lexus when comfort in paramount and the BMW for a large sporty vehicle and the Porsche is the sports car of the bunch.

    I haven't heard about the redsign for Lexus although I have heard about the new larger SUV. I have a feeling with the 745i taking the first major leap, MBZ, Audi and Lexus will be scrambling for something to compete with it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well there probably won't be another S8 next year. The regular "A8" will debut first with the "S8" being a year or two down the line.

    The LS430 will NOT be redesigned for 2003. I think what's being confused here is the difference between a facelift and a redesign. The LS430 may get a facelift for 2003, more power, equipment, new front and rear ends, but no car of this class (or cars period) gets a total redesign in just 2 years, thats way too expensive even for Toyota.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I agree with you but I wouldn't rule out 2004 as a major change. I would think 2003 is a facelift possibility and 04 could be a follow through to 2003. Remember also Lexus needs to get some momentum in Europe. I also think that time periods for these re-designs will be shortening up. It's too competitive, too lucrative, and too profitable for it to be any other way with 3-5 players in the game - if VW is to be taken seriously. Audi is definitely in the group but not taken seriously in the US. I'll never understand what VW is doing, given it's position with Audi. If Infiniti ever hits it they could be added but I don't count them in as yet as they are a step below in buyer profiles.

    I think shortening the time frames is a natural business phenomena as only the strongest capital rich companies survive so you weed out the weaker players. They either go away or get acquired. I also think that the time period to re-design is more tied to units sold in such an enviroment. Lexus did sell 8,000 cars (33%) over what they projected in that first year.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    When you sink 1.2 billion on the cost of a redesign like MB did with the E-class then it seems foolish to redesign a model every 3 or 4 years. Where is the return on investment?

    BTW, ABC is debuting on the next E-class, so tecnology does trickle down.
  • bernard1bernard1 Member Posts: 58
    You're probably right. Most buyers of high end cars don't expect them to change much over a 6 to 7 yr period of time.

    Merc1 - If the S8 will be 2 to 3 yrs away before a new body style, too bad. Audi's all wheel drive system, aluminum body/frame, and sport package with a new shell might finally give MB & BMW a run for there money in America. I know we are still considering one, but the 745i at this point is so far ahead, it's hard to wait for Audi to catch up.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That's true....*somewhat*, but trust me I know that the LS430 won't be full redesigned until at least 2006. Not even Toyota could re-do the entire car from the ground up in just 2 years of being on the market, it simply doesn't make business sense. My postion on redo is that if a car is a great design it can last 5-7 years, look at the previous 7-Series and S-Class. To me it takes something away from the brand if they keep redoing their cars ever 3-4 years, like Honda used to do the Accord. To me that says the design wasn't any good in the first place if its out-done in just 4 years. I swear I could tell my life events by Honda Accords. I think Mercedes is replacing the CLK too soon. The E-Class (though I hate to see it go) is getting it's redo right in time, I always get watery eyed when an E is replaced, I really had trouble letting the W124 E-Class (1986-1995) go.

    Audi. They are taken very seriously in Europe, but you're right about the their U.S. situation. Part of this is Audi's own fault because they always hesitate when bringing their best cars here. The A8 didn't get here until 1997, though it came out in 1994. They wasted time with the A8L and S8. That may be changing because they're bringing the giant-killer RS6(!) here right after the Euro introduction.

    Infiniti. They're just seemingly lost. The Q45 doesn't fit, it's bigger and more powerful than anyone's mid-level cars, but can't match most bigger luxury cars. They touted the Q45 as a sports sedan, but it's really too large for that, then it's styling is not right to me. Now they have another car coming that will slot in between the I35 and the Q45, more confusion. They make some good cars, but not "great" ones. The only Infiniti I see that will be truly "hot" will be the FX45 crossover.

    bernard1,

    Well there will be a new A8 soon. I predict it will be introduced at the Paris show this fall and go on sale in the U.S. next spring as a 2004 model, with a new S8 a year later. I say if you like the style of the 745i go for it, nothing in this segment (right now) is more advanced, and the 745i reeks of quality and still delivers that BMW driving feel.

    M
  • jaijayjaijay Member Posts: 162
    Trussman, I was just visiting the diesel page and they had some discussion on the down shift problem that you have faced when towing your truck. Apparently someone fired off a tip that may solve your problem. I know this is out of topic but I know this the better way to reach you without starting another topic just for this purpose.

    Here is what they posted as a solution:

    "just a few comments I would like to add! at just about 2/3 of the way to full trottle is max power.the last 1/3 is to tell the trans to down shift.(APP)also if you turn on the cruise and set it to well below your driveing speed like 35 on the high way and drive with your foot at 75 it will almost never downshift!"

    Thanks to mark45678. Check out the topic "Allison shiftiness when towing" for the remainder of the discussion. However it seems that others have found this technique to work with success.

    Good luck.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    Would you mail me? brenth@wcta.net

    I would like to get in touch with Big Al.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I never really aspire to drive a Mercedes, and really the only BMWs that float my boat are the M Coupe and the upcoming Z5. I do however love Audi, and would buy one(or two or three) in a second given the chance.

    I am calling you a troll because it is inpolite to go around to every single forum, even those that do not bring up mercedes, just so you can spout your drivel and meaningless opinion.

    Alfa Romeo, while making cars that are extremely fun to drive, have hardly been known for quality. In fact, I wouldnt be suprised if I saw Alfa Romeo down with Ford on JD Power surveys. I found it odd that you go and downplay Mercedes Benz for having "bad" quality(which is still in the top ten), yet you drive an Alfa.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I've had a couple of tough days at work so maybe it's just me. But I don't have a clue as to what your last two posts mean. Which alfa owner knocked MB?
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    it was just some guy who posted a dumb link about MB quality going downhill. It wasnt so much that he posted the link, but he did it about 15 times in different forums. I found it ironic that he was trashing MBs quality, but his profile said he drove an Alfa Romeo.
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    Do you really think that a 440hp A6 is what Audi needs to compete more effectively with MB, BMW and Lexus? Seems to me that the great majority of buyers in this class wouldn't know or care about such a beast. Do you think AMG or S have anything more than a tiny incremental impact on sales at MB or Audi? BMW is another story, since the marque appeals predominantly to "enthusiasts" and therefore I suppose the existence of the M branding helps the image of BMW as a whole. But I would bet that if you interviewed 100 people visiting your local MB store, not more than one or two would even know what AMG is. If I were Audi, I would spend the time and money working on my atrocious dealer network and customer service. If they are to succeed in this market, THAT is what will do it.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    The RS6 sure doesn't hurt matters. AMG, M, S-series go a long way towards their respective images. Would you rather MB just not bring the S55 or E55 overseas? What about the M5?

    P.S. Do you know anything about Audi's dealer network or customer service, or is it just an assumption? In the Chicagoland area at least, Audi has some of the most beautiful dealers I have ever seen. Much better than some of the local Acura, BMW, MB dealers
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In my area of NJ the Audi dealership which also sells Range Rovers is as seedy as car dealerships can be. I couldn't wait to get out of it. The Lexus dealership's service garage is far superior and the Lexus dealership itself reeks of luxury and class. There are places you go into and the atmosphere almost dictates you buy something - the Lexus dealership here - and places you witdraw from ASAP - the Audi dealership here. Based on this and knowing other Lexus showrooms I've been in - I couldn't agree with you more.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    You are basing your opinion on one Audi dealership. If I would do the same, I could say that the one of the local lexus dealers is seedy. The entire dealership attitude turned my mother away from buying an LS430.
  • bernard1bernard1 Member Posts: 58
    I think Audi needs to bring in the 440 hp A6 and an updated S8 if they are going to compete with BMW. These models are only up against the M's and AMG's. Technology will flow down to the standard A6's. Audi has to raise their image if they are going to compete with BMW, MB.

    Can't speak to their dealerships because my BMW dealer is also the Porsche and Audi Dealer.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    When I said, "based on this", I meant that Audi dealership. I've never seen a bad Lexus dealership so I also meant that. Several people in my office have Audi's and say very uncomplementary things about their dealerships as well. On the other hand, now that I think about it, there is a dealership in Manhattan, on Park ave. no less, that Audi took over from MB that is worldclass. But surburban dealerships I see in the NY area are not very inviting and I've heard the service departments are terrible. But in truth my only personal experience was the dealership I noted. On the day that I was there - a Saturday - I was one of two prospective buyers in a small very confining showroom. When I went to Lexus and MB that day the dealerships were teeming with people.
  • hungrywhalehungrywhale Member Posts: 83
    Well, in my area, there are 2 Audi dealers, both are great, IMO (and I own an Audi and have it serviced there). I was not at all impressed with the local Lexus dealers, though.

    It's all about your local dealers. If you don't like them, don't patronize them.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    I am impressed by the Lexus dealers, they are all quite nice(since they were all built around the same time with the same archetecture), but its the pompus sales staff that turned me off. But that was just that one dealer.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well that's why you're a Lexus fan (no offense) they don't have the performance cars like AMG, M and S, like the Germans do. Yes Audi needs the 450hp RS6 to compete with the M5, and others. Audi has set their goal as taking on BMW and in order to do that completely they need hi-po models such as the RS6. Mercedes has a 469hp E55K coming, Jaguar has a 400hp S-Type R coming in May, so yes Audi needs to field a car here. It's not about "sales" it's about bragging rights, image, and rub-off sales on "lesser" A6 models. The average person probably wouldn't know about AMG, you're right, but a Mercedes enthusiast does, and that's all that matters. These are not cars aimed at the "majority" which makes them all the more appealing to folks like me.

    Dealerships: They really do vary from place to place. The Audi dealers here (Chicago area), Continental, Shaumburg, Laurel are all brand new state of the art facilities, with true professionals at work. Lexus dealers are the same, except for their people. They act like they're doing YOU a favor by showing you a car. I swear you'd think they were selling Bentleys.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I would look for that "seedy" Land Rover - Audi dealer to be history soon. Ford wants LR, Jaguar and Aston Martin together wherever possible. They surely don't want Audi there. Land Rover and Audi would both do themselves better to get out of this union.

    M
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    No offense taken, since I don't see beling a "Lexus fan" as an insult. And I am quite ready to admit (a) that the quality of dealerships will vary widely; (b) that, having never owned an Audi, I have much less personal experience than do others here; and (c) that my impressions were formed in shopping forays and media reports. The media have not been kind to the Audi service/sales experience, and my own very limited experiences were consistent with that.

    And on the value of a "tuned" A6, your response is internally inconsistent: "It's not about "sales" it's about . . . rub-off sales on "lesser" A6 models." Unless Audi is less of a player than I imagined, everything they DO should be "about sales." Otherwise, I pity its shareholders. And I suspect that you are correct that the *perceived* value in such a car is what you call "rub-off"sales on "lesser" models. But that was my point: My perhaps uninformed intuition is that Audi doesn't need these cars to compete with MB or Lexus (as much as perceived value, dealer commitment and luxury), since 99 44/100% of the target customers don't know about or car about "tuned" cars and the relative handful that do won't generate enough PROFITS to make the exercise worthwhile. As for BMW, I just don't know if Audi sees BMW as the real bogie.

    Because I think that competition makes all the products of these companies better, I hope Audi begins making irresistable cars and that I end up buying one some day. Because I couldn't care less about "bragging rights [and] image," the fact that they produce a smallish car with unusable horsepower (at least in my urban environment) doesn't make that eventuality any more likely.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    I think there is a much larger market for the "tuned" cars than nealm1 suggests. I would guess that any repeat BMW customer is well aware of the M series cars, they have become automotive icons. I think any MB buyer under the age of fifty is well aware of the AMG cars. I think Audi is coming late, but they have made a name for themselves with cars like the superb S4. These are the models the car mags test, they are the models many people recognize FIRST in the line-up. They are image leaders, the push the limits of performance and luxury. To discount them as obscure and devoid of profitability is naive.

    IMO this is a realm Lexus will never enter. Maybe this is based on special models not being as profitable. This would keep prices down on mainstream models, as they do not subsidise the specials. I just don't think they can turn out leading edge performance models. Japan has never been successful in that niche. Good value for the masses, not much for real car enthusiasts.
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    This discussion raises an interesting factual question that someone on this board must be able to answer: For what percentage of Mercedes' sales do the AMG cars account? Same for Audi S and BMW M.

    My guess is that v12power is right about BMW, i.e., that the percentage of BMW buyers that know and care about M cars is much higher than for the others, and that M accounts for a higher percentage of BMW sales than do "S" and AMG for Audi and MB respectively. I bet the answer for MB is that AMG amounts to no more than decimal dust. I also believe that he is right that it makes business sense for BMW, even if the number of M sales is low since it reinforces BMW's image as a performance leader. I bet v12 is wrong about the margins on the S and AMG cars; my guess is that they are sold at MUCH higher margins that the regular cars - but perhaps not high enough to justify the cap costs.

    As for whether Lexus will compete in this category at some point, I suppose we will have to wait and see. The "L" tuned GS and the IS suggest that they are at least taking a hard look at it. But if they think it doesn't make sense from an ECONOMIC perspective, they won't do it, since being an "image" leader for that sake alone is bad business.
  • v12powerv12power Member Posts: 174
    Take a look at the AMG cars. You have the C32 AMG and SLK32 AMG sharing most AMG unique components. You have the CLK55, E55,ML55 and S55 all using the same engine and likely transmission. AMG wheels are offered in sport packages across the board. While the AMG cars may be unique, MB wisely employs economys of scale to make it work. The premium for these cars is not all that high when comparably equipped(minus AMG specifics). I doubt they are losing money here.

    The Audi S4 uses the same powerplant as the A6 2.7T and All Road Quattro. The S6 avant and S8 share the V8. I think these cars are mis-characterized as unique, one-of, type vehicles.
  • bernard1bernard1 Member Posts: 58
    I agree with you but don't think it's just the MB buyers under fifty. Some group had to push to get them into the country years ago. The problem I see for AMG is that their cars are autos while the M cars are manual.

    Audi has been late to bring over their best cars which have left them out of the loop to compete with BMW's 540 and M5. Now they are stepping to the plate but must continue to push they perfomance autos including the S8.
  • bernard1bernard1 Member Posts: 58
    I agree with you but don't think it's just the MB buyers under fifty who know of and desire the AMG's. Remember most S class buyers also consider BMW's where they also hear about BMW's perfomance models. Then when they shop MB, they ask what the comparable MB perfomance model to BMW's? The problem I see for AMG is that their cars are autos while the M cars are manual.

    Audi has been late to bring over their best cars which have left them out of the loop to compete with BMW's 540 and M5. Now they are stepping to the plate but must continue to push their perfomance autos including the S8.
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