High End Luxury Cars

blkhemi · March 2006

IMO, the L-Finesse styling concept that Toyota/Lexus has chosen to apply to all of it's current and future models just did not do the upcoming LS justice. It looks just as insignificant as the current model does in light of controversial designs like the S and 7, for good or worse.

As to the Audi's interior, "overrated" is a bit overstepping, wouldn't you say? I have yet to purchase or see a car that has this much attention to detail and the use of plush materials as the Audi does. Everything from the suede headliner to the pattern-matching wood is the reason Audi executes the best interior's in the luxo business(altho the low-volume Maserati Quattroporte is a very good alternative).

Lexus dropped the ball on more than just not offering the IS350 without a manual. The GS450h, which is supposed to have power of a GS430 with BETTER fuel economy than a GS300. This car weighs 240 pounds MORE than a 430 and only returns 4 mpg better, with a 6k premium on it's price and the added complexity of the HSD technology. How's that for dropping the ball. They did such a good job with the RX400h that I can't understand why goof-up now?

ljflx · March 2006

"They're trying to reel Lexus back towards the pack, and it's like catching Secretariat!"

In the Belmont stakes!!

I still have a family members $2.10 winning ticket. Now if they had only given odds that day that he would have had to win by 30+ lengths - then maybe this ticket would've paid $100.

tagman · March 2006

OK, how many times have we seen this? . . . someone buys a Lexus or Mercedes, announces it on the forum, describes the experience, and then all of a sudden they seem to think that they need to "take sides". They are either on the "Lexus team" or the "Mercedes team", or "Euro team", if you know what I mean, depending upon what they bought.

Suddenly, objectivity is gone, and it has become a competitive event. "My car is better than your car". "I've seen the light . . . having bought this car, I now know why it is so great!" Of course, then the bashing of the "other" cars begins. Exagerations, and biased views start to emerge all over the place. It's definately a strange process. Maybe even a natural phenomena of some sort. But, actually, it's plain as day.

TagMan

merc1 · March 2006

Well that is the way this board has been since 1999. You should go back and read some of the galactic battles that have taken place here. It's been a lot of fun to me, but I see what you're saying. Trust me things have been very calm (boring even) over the last few months.

M

houdini1 · March 2006

Most of us simply love cars. Nearly all cars. As Tagman said, I would like to own 3 or 4 just for my own personal use. And we defend what is ours.

If your kid gets into a scrape or is in some sort of competitive event, who do you root for? Even if that kid is clearly in the wrong, we will rationalize his behavior, etc. We do the same with our cars and other things that we own.

You should see the debate that rages over on one of the riding lawn mower forums. It has raged for years over which is the better mower overall, is it better to buy cheap and practical or go premium. Some see these premium mowers as, are you ready for this, STATUS SYMBOLS, and will defend their opinions to the death. If you think some LPS discussions get heated you should check out the lawn mower forum.

If we all had the same opinions, how dull would this forum be? That is what makes it interesting and entertaining here.

sv7887 · March 2006

Tagman,
I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I still own my 1992 LS400 and will not part with it period. I don't need to justify anything: My experience with Lexus Customer Service and their Service Department has been very poor. How would you like it if you've invested $200K in a certain brand and they treat you poorly when you need them? That's not called Service. They were not loyal to me, so I voted with my (more like my son's in this case) checkbook and gave Mercedes my business.

There is nothing biased about my experience. Here is the short version:

1) Son takes 1992 LS400 to dealer this summer for service since the suspension is "clunking". They call him back and claim it needs $4k worth of work. The mechanic says the Service Writer is wrong. He agrees to 2K of work to fix this problem. It isn't fixed. They claim the stabilizer bar bushings are bad, yet they'd been replaced a year earlier. He calls the Service Manager who says to the effect of "Tough *hit..We'll keep charging to fix it.." It takes a lawyer's letter, a complaint with the MA Attorney General and Better Business Bureau to get an acceptable settlement out of them.

You want to know the funniest thing? This Clunking noise was caused by missing Brake Shims!!! The dealer forgot to put them back on after they did the accident repairs!

2) I bought a CPO 1998 LS400 in 2001. This car would stall, doors wouldn't shut properly, the cluster would blink for no reason and the parking brake wouldn't hold the car on my driveway. Imagine bringing a $46K car home and having it roll off of your driveway! Is that acceptable??

Why did it take a lawsuit to make Lexus give me a 2002 LS430 at cost?? Where was Corporate then??

3) The '02 LS430 had its rain sensor replaced 3 times and the steering column had to be replaced under warranty.

4) The paint on my new 2005 LS430 scratches so easily despite being polished and waxed 4 times a year. It also rattles in the rear. The Lexus dealer pretty much told me tough luck..

Do you understand why I'm angry now?? Why should I be loyal to a car company that hasn't supported me at all? I get upset when people spew propaganda on this board claiming Lexus is the second coming of Christ himself. It's not and my experience proves that. I know what the JDP Data says, why do you think I invested over $200K in these cars in the first place? My experience is what it is.. You cannot discount it.

As for the LS460, it is a technical marvel, but certainly is not the second coming of the 1990 LS400. The '90 model was better looking, performing, and longer lasting than anything else at the time. The S550 may be eclipsed by the LS460, but we'll have to wait and see. I don't see the LS460 "blowing" anything away. Do you think MB, BMW, and Audi are resting on their laurels? It's a nice car, but not the "Great" car the 1990 LS400.

If the LS460 outsells the S550 worldwide I will admit I am wrong. But at the same time you cannot denigrate Mercedes just because they are having reliability and profitability issues. They are still considered top notch in innovative safety technology, performance, style, design, and engineering.

This isn't about my car is betters than yours. It supposed to be about factual data. I maintain my LS400 is one of the best cars Lexus has built period. I'll pit it against anything from it's era. I wouldn't invest the $$$ in it if I thought otherwise. Likewise, I think the same of the S Class. It was the trend setting car of it's era for style and technology. Reliability is an issue, but it has a grace and presence unlike any other.

I think you missed my point about the LS460..I don't like ANY new car out there period, hence my decision to pick the older S Class.

-Sam

sv7887 · March 2006

As for the LS400

The 1990-1994 had a flair to me. I remember a line from a Car and Driver review of the 1995 that said it lacked the flair of the less perfect model. That car was too antiseptic to me. There are some posters on here which have commented about Lexus acknowledging that the revision was too conservative. The original model was a timeless design, a la Jaguar. Look at a 1st Generation LS400 today and it still looks nice. The succesor models IMHO have not aged as well.

I passed on the 1995 and got a 1998 CPO. I had enough issues with that to trade up to a 2002 Ls430. It was a nice car, but then again did not have the bulletproof service record the 1992 LS had until recently. Also, the exterior design was quite disappointing, a creative dud. The 2005 LS430 was a big improvement, but that shape was still there. It looked bulky.

The LS460 is an interesting car no doubt. But it still doesn't have the flair of the 1990 model. The design is modest, but not very exciting. The interior is great however. The Tech gear is another plus. It just didn't do it for me.

Have a look one day at a 1990-94 model. Pay attention to the window switches, turn signal stalks, dimmer switch for the console and even the side mirrors. You'll see the plastic on those are much thicker than the newer cars. The 1992 had an off switch for the Steering Retract and Keyless entry. Everything about that car give the feeling it would last forever.

Sure my 1992 is starting to have some issues, but it still can do a 100 MPH with an eerie silence. It's hard to believe a 14 yr old car can perform so well.

As I mentioned before my son has spent a few thousand fixing every little cosmetic and mechanical item that was out of spec. For the first time in months, I drove it a few days ago. I didn't even hear the engine as I drove. The ride was silky smooth, and the paint gleamed as if it were brand new. It sure got to 85 MPH in a hurry and was pretty stable on the highway. No moving about in the crosswind like my LS430 does. (Due in part to its higher profile). The old Pioneer 7 speaker stereo sounded wonderful. Absolutely nothing is wrong with this car.

After parking it at the mall I turned around to look at it..It still the looker of the lot. People refuse to believe me when I tell them it's 14 yrs old.

Do you see what I'm talking about? When Lexus builds another like this, I'll be first in line to buy it..
The people at the Lexus dealer refer to that car as the "Golden Age" I have had many a Lexus mechanic lament to me that they don't build like that anymore.

I hope you understand now that this has nothing to do with petty my car is better than yours attitude. I think the only car I'm missing now is a 1998-2003 Jaguar XJ8!

-Sam

merc1 · March 2006

Likewise, I think the same of the S Class.....but it has a grace and presence unlike any other.

Whoa, that sounds like one of MB's current commercials. I'm still in shock here SV!

M

ljflx · March 2006

I'll completely disagree with you SV. The 95 car to me was a beautiful design and an improvement on the 90-94 models. I like the 90-94 but will take a 95 over a 94 any day. I've never heard this golden age moniker you describe around here. In my area the dealership treats you like royalty and Lexus HQ surprises me constantly. They recently sent me a gift of choice (not cheap) just for answering a survey on line. I again requested paint on the phone from my dealership and received it fedex the next day. When I bring my car in for service two people are waiting there to speed me out in a loaner car. It's simply top shelf treatment in a bullet proof car. IMO the build quality is still improving on standards that were already the best in the industry and I'm expecting the best build of all in the 2007 LS. Maybe the 90-94 turn signals were stronger than the current ones - I certainly don't remember - but everything else on the inside of today's car (and the 95 and 98 redesigns) are higher quality than the 90-94 models.

tagman · March 2006

I think it is safe to say that there are some bad dealers for all brands of cars. The bad Lexus experience that SV talks about is very real and unfortunate, but that is not a genuine representation of the larger population's situation, as I think ljflx would agree.

There are quite a few Mercedes dealers near me to choose from, which I guess says a lot about demographics, and sure enough, folks have their preferences and also their horror stories. But, even though one of those MB dealers is clearly nastier than the others, it does not genuinely reflect the larger population's positive ownership experiences for Mercedes vehicles.

IMO, the service treatment is important, but too often a vehicle owner ends up paying more attention to the service experience than the vehicle and driving experience . . . and that's a shame.

TagMan

ljflx · March 2006

Tagman,

Just in my neck of the woods there is an MB dealership that is equal to my Lexus dealership (based on my limited experience). Like everything in cusomer service there are stars, there is medocrity and there are failures.

sv7887 · March 2006

Hi All,

I think Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The person who spoke of the Golden Age is the Head Mechanic at my Lexus dealer. Other mechanics have made the same comment.
You can argue that there is nicer leather and what not in the 1995+ models and I'll have to agree with you.

Mind you the 1995 was very similar to the 1994 mechanically. It had the same 4 spd Automatic and 1uz-FE engine in it. It was just a 10 HP increase. The interior was completly different however. The exterior was a clear derivative of the original.

Next time ask your Service Writer what he/she thinks about the quality of the early ones compared to now. Did you ever see any recalls for fuel pumps and transmissions on the old one? Did you see any problems with the display cluster like they had in the 1998 model? How about the jerky accelerator? They had a single recall for the Cruise Control in the 1990 model.

The question here is absolute quality. Look at the side mirrors for example. They are much thicker on the old car. Feel the dimmer on your new car. Then go feel the dimmer on a 1990 LS. Then feel the door handle. The 1990-94 had a much thicker handle. Check the grille next, and then the window switches. Everything is thicker plastic or chrome. You'll notice the difference, but I appreciate it is hard to realize this unless both cars are sitting next to each other. My 1992 sits next to the 2005 so it's easy for me to make the comparison.

I will be the first one to say that my experience is NOT the norm. Maybe it is just the MA dealers. Of course. I've never been out of state for Lexus service. In dispute resolution with Lexus HQ I've found that they always offer the same excuses and apologies. It takes legal action to force action on their part.

Like I said, Lexus still makes a great car. This is an undisputable fact. They are technically advanced as they come, and they're starting to establish themselves as an innovator. I see only good things happening to them in the next few years.

As a long time owner I've really been let down by their customer service. I would have bought the LS460 without hesitation had I not had such a bitter experience with Lexus HQ and Dealership over the maintenance of my 92 LS. In fact, the goodwill of the 1992 experience kept me a Lexus buyer, even though I liked the S Class more.

By Probability it is unlikely the S430 will be as reliable as the LS cars. It is also true that it will not hold value as well nor will it have Bluetooth, Backup Camera, and Parking Radar. I've always maintained that Lexus appeals to the objective buyer.

What does the S430 offer then? Many Safety features standard, a timeless graceful design, Airmatic (Hope that doesn't cause more problems than it solves), 4 Matic (Big one for me), and enough toys to keep me occupied. Of course I didn't have to pay for it, so that's a plus! In addition maintenance is paid for over 3 yrs.

I fully expect this car to be more problematic. That isn't the issue. The MB dealer really treated me like royalty. That was the clincher.

This doesn't mean I'll cease being a Lexus fan. The 92 LS has created enough goodwill that I'll always defend them!

However, I won't be so quick to slam Mercedes unless this S430 falls apart of breaks down somewhere!

-Sam

merc1 · March 2006

I think I just got the same S-Class advertisement you got a few days ago. A Black velvety box with 4 cards, 3 exterior shots and 1 interior shot. Nice, but I would have liked more info.

M

ljflx · March 2006

Yep. That's it. Mine included a test drive invitation and a special number to call. I think it was classy and the pure side view of the car looked great.

On Idol - I'm still amazed at Chicken Little's survival. Someone told me that there's a "vote for the worst" group that is probably keeping him alive each week. It's a shame that he can be so awful each week while the others can't make a mistake or they're in danger of being gone. Some of the better people, who can actually win this thing are worried each week with this crazy voting when Seacrest puts them on the bubble with his safe or danger calls. I see this coming down to Chris, Mandisa and Katherine. Mandisa's weight could be a problem but she does have a beautiful face and great charisma going for her. I think those three plus Lisa and Paris will all have future careers. Taylor's the oddball as he is a great entertainer and should get into the business in some way. I just don't see a future where we are listing to his songs on the radio. Lisa and Ace almost being eliminated was sickening and while I was not a real big fan of Melissa, I still think it's a shame she's gone as she is light years beyond Kevin Covais in talent. I have a feeling Randy is going to come down hard on him the next go round as I'm sure Simon is speaking to him and Paula behind the scenes about this contestant.

anthonyp · March 2006

It has always been my contention that the dealer is the pivotal player for service...As we have had many lexus cars over the lastfourteen years or so, I personally can say the first was the best and had the least trouble for its time,..Four years later there was good improvement, but not quite the build quality and a little more problems, then the next was a huge improvement in the driving department, but again the build quality was a bit worse....All those years the dealer has been the best I have ever experienced...Right now I have an Audi as a change is nice occasionally....The Audi for me is a wonderful change and has been trouble free so far..I further think the dealer is going to be a good dealer---I just haven`t had occasion to test them out yet, but I know they won`t be better than lexus.. I bet the Lexus will not be priced much higher than the present model LS, and will be a huge sucess....My Audi cost a bit more than eighty thousand and the Lexus is a lot less than that...Tony

tagman · March 2006

I bet the Lexus will not be priced much higher than the present model LS, and will be a huge sucess

Agree.

ljflx · March 2006

I'm hearing the prices will range from $63-$82K, stripped SWB car at $63K and loaded LWB car at $82K. Nothing on hybrid but IMO it will be $95-100K.

tagman · March 2006

Obviously the LWB and hybrid will bring the prices into new territory. It'll be interesting to see how it all goes, although I have little doubt it will all go well . . . very well.

drfill · March 2006

The Hybrid will come in around $90k, with a loaded LS460 reaching the low $80's.

DrFill

blkhemi · March 2006

I whole-heartedly agree with your testimony. I had numerous problems with my '98 LS that I promised myself that I wouldn't ever buy another again, no matter how reliable they were supposed to be. In a short 32,000 miles, the steering rack and both front hubs had to replaced($6k job, albeit all under warranty). Then the cluster failed twice, and then the electrical system went hay-wire. It reminded my of my 1990 Jaguar XJ VDP. Like yourself, I was completely let down on this car compared to my '92, which believe it or not, only had a bad battery and two flat tires in 76,000 miles.

I eventually unloaded the LS for a '01 S500 which was a model of both quality and reliability, despite the reputation.

It has to be said that not everyone is on the "Lexus is for everyone" band-wagon. May it be style or just utter disgust, it's not for everybody. If Sam had a terrible experience with the cars after spending a huge bundle over time with the company, then I would very upset with them also, which was the case with myself.

The Lexus is a time-honored vehicle as it should be in it's own right, but it is "NOT" the perfect vehicle most Lexus customers would lead a person to believe. Up until the upcoming LS460, the post '01's looked more like a puffed-n-buffed Buick Park Avenue than luxury distinctive,IMO.

I now drive one of the less talked about vehicles on the HELM, the A8. And very happy with my purchase and wouldn't get rid of it for any car that's out now(maybe the upcoming S8). And maybe that's a good thing.

blckislandguy · March 2006

I agree that a "stripped" S500 will hold its value more than a loaded S430. Lets agree to disagree on my belief that everything else being equal, a loaded (special edition, whatever) S500 will hold its value less than a stripped S500. (I think cars are like neighborhoods: the best house in the neighborhood won't do as well in terms of value as the average house; everything reverts back to the mean.)

Incidentally, the air suspension is so problemattic on Range Rovers that companies offer kits so you can remove the darn air bags and go back to shocks and springs. You can do the whole retrofit for about 2K less than the cost of fixing the air bags. Do used S Classes have major trouble (i.e., expensive repairs) with their air suspension?

blkhemi · March 2006

The S-Class air-suspension is pretty rock solid, in fact one of it's greatest attributes. However, some early ABC-equipped cars were prone to failure. This was fixed during the '03 redesign. My ABC-equipped S65 suspension never had to ber serviced or anything of that nature, despite my rather "enthusiastic" driving habits.

merc1 · March 2006

Yeah mine had a little card inside too with the local dealer's info, couldn't really do much with that info! I've wasted enough of their time over the last few years driving cars that are 2 to 3 times the price of what I'd be able to buy from them!

Idol, I agree totally. While I like your choices for the winner I think I'm going with Ace. He just had a bad week. Hopefully that is what it was. Yeah anything forget words to a song you're gone that is as bad as dropping the mic.

M

drfill · March 2006

Top 10 Lists See all Top 10 Lists

Top 10 Cars With the Best Residual Value for 2004
By Erin Riches
Email | Blog

Want to buy a car that really holds its value? If resale value is important to you, these are the cars likely to depreciate the least during the ownership period. Below we show the percentage of its original value that each vehicle is likely to retain after five years with an annual mileage of 15,000. Keep in mind that the residual value percentages are based on the national True Market Value® (TMV) price, plus typical options and destination charge. A quick scan of our list shows that import nameplates rule when it comes to retaining their value, Viper and Corvette excepted. Beyond that, it's clear that luxury nameplates hold an edge as well, though the lineups of non-luxury brands like Honda, Toyota and Volkswagen are also well represented.

Porsche 911  57%

Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class  53%

Acura NSX  52%
Dodge Viper
Honda S2000
Mini Cooper

BMW Z4  51%
Nissan 350Z

BMW M3  50%

BMW 3 Series  49%
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Volkswagen Jetta
Volkswagen New Beetle

Acura RSX  48%
Chevrolet Corvette
Lexus ES 330
Lexus GS 300
Lexus GS 430
Lexus SC 430
Mercedes-Benz CLK55 AMG
Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class
Mercedes-Benz SLK32 AMG
Toyota Camry Solara
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2 Spyder

Audi TT  47%
Infiniti G35
Mercedes-Benz CL-Class
Mercedes-Benz E-Class
Toyota Matrix
Volkswagen GTI
Volkswagen Passat

Acura TL  46%
Acura TSX
BMW 5 Series
Mazda RX-8
Mercedes-Benz CL55 AMG
Porsche Boxster
Subaru Outback
Toyota Camry
Volkswagen Golf

Jaguar S-Type R  45%
Lexus IS 300
Lexus LS 430
Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG
Nissan Altima
Toyota Avalon
Volvo XC70

DrFill

designman · March 2006

Curious. 911 went from top gun at 57% to below 47% in one year? Or is it just absent from the listing for 2005? Or maybe their discounting which just started around 2003 has something to do with it. CLK is up there from 04 to 05 but its not discounted, right? Id like to see a comprehensive list, not just top/worst 10. The listing seems inconsistent from 04 to 05. Too many questions.

I havent watched much but I like Mandisa. Even if she doesnt win, I think she has the most talent knows how to bend those fundamental blues notes, plus her degree is in music, sings professionally and has that passionate gospel-rock background. I could care less if shes had a few too many slices. She has the kind of demeanor that I think helped Carrie Underwood win it. And remember, Dorothy singing Over the Rainbow is the number one song in movie history... the ingenue racks up points. Yep, Kevin needs the hook very puzzling.

Ljflx... I was disappointed with the Sopranos... thought they laid it on a little too thick... far fetched. This is probably a stupid question, but is Tony gonna make it? I don't think it's necessarily a lock.

blckislandguy · March 2006

Lots of us HELM forum readers/posters are closing in fast on 60 or are already on the wrong side. Let me pose a question. For a car nut like most of us, what is the best Last New Car?

Allow me to narrow the range of alternatives. Lets assume that at this stage in your life someone else is handling your boat towing and snow plowing chores, so no pickups, however luxurious. Lets assume further that your kids have moved on (apparently though this is not the trend) and your Irish Wolfehounds have died. So no large SUVs. Lets assume further that you need/want AWD or four wheel drive to get down to Walgreen's to pick up your meds, no matter how bad the weather. Because you are going to buy this car just before you retire and it is going to be your Last New Car you are going to spend a few bucks so you can enjoy your lifetime of hard work and keep it for 10 or so years. Minor reliability problems may or not be of the same significance they were when you were working 65 hours a week and bringing in a car for service was a major hassle. Status concerns may or may not be as significant as when you were taking customers/bankers/vendors to lunch. (Although if you were single and 70, you might be better off in a HELM if you were trying to get something going with your best friends's widow.) Depreciation rates may not be of importance (who cares what your estate may get for it?). Running costs such as fuel, insurance, maintenance will be of concern because of your now fixed income. (Before you quickly think that an E Class diesel is the way to go, re-read Habitat1's post of a year or so ago on this.)

Whaddya think the best Last New Car is?

ljflx · March 2006

"Ljflx... I was disappointed with the Sopranos... thought they laid it on a little too thick... far fetched. This is probably a stupid question, but is Tony gonna make it? I don't think it's necessarily a lock"

I agree on the episode. But if Tony doesn't make it than there's no show. Chase is also playing with us. The whole story about the guy - who came from nowhere - and wants to go to Florida was about his own real life situation. He was the guy that wants to abandon the show and Tony was HBO saying there's no retirement in this business. I think we see Tony in intensive care having dream sequences for a few episodes while his "family" fights for his position as leader and some even plot to kill him in the hospital (Godfather takeoff). This is just my opinion - I have no news on this. Anyway best scene of the opening episode - The Lexus GS cutting off the guys after they ate in the restaurant. Did you see that handling!

warthog · March 2006

Easy. Carrera 4 if no back seat is required; 530xi if it is. Caveat: even if you don't need the backseat, you might still choose the BMW if that widow you're courting can't get into the Porsche. Screw the fuel economy--this is the HELM board.

tagman · March 2006

Curious. 911 went from top gun at 57% to below 47% in one year?

Here are the LATEST projected depreciation values, and, yes designman, the 911 is in the top group. Notice the Lexus LS is only mid point.

Here it is, straight from the source:

http://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx

TagMan

drfill · March 2006

With cars like Mazda3, Civic, Scion tC, and Chrysler 300 haveing average depreciation, along with Lexus LS and S-Class.

Frontier has 5-star resale value?

DrFill

designman · March 2006

Whaddya think the best Last New Car is?

Lordy, thats a depressing thought. The final ride is the Subterranean Bobsled, but I aint ready for that yet. Ill answer the question with this. Which car did you want as a kid? Well, go with the current version, gift your estate to the kids, max out the credit, and drive west into the sunset. Suddenly I have this vision of Thelma and Louise

;-)

designman · March 2006

But if Tony doesn't make it than there's no show.

I dont know. There are lots of creative ways to go about it. Sylvio, Christopher and Carmela could wind up on Boston Legal for all we know. And Denny could be sharing a room in hospice with Uncle Junior. Merc and Oac could be the next Google.

THESE are the days of our lives! (I miss Oac)

;-)

designman · March 2006

Thats more like it. But curious is the Boxster which is rated high in Edmunds 04 rating and only 3-star with the 06 ALG. Anyway, I could care less, its one of the best, most tossable drivers cars around. Furthermore, I paid $14K under MSRP for my new leftover with the full warranty. They take a hit in the first model year, then stabilize. Paid 42 for my S and could get at least 32, two-plus years later. IMO best bargain on Porsches are the leftovers or 1-year used. Never buy a Porsche early in the model year.

If you have a passion for old Porches, and lots of people do, thats where the best opportunities are. Porsche rules. Screw MB, screw BMW and screw Lexus. Just kiddin guys... can you tell which car is close to me heart?

Compared with reliability, I think depreciation is overrated. As a matter of fact, all of this coffee-klatch junk is overrated. Go with the car that floats your boat. It was good to hear Sam excited with his new S.

;-)

lexusguy · March 2006

Poor Jaguar only managed a 2-star rating across the board. The XJ as a lightly used buy is pretty hard to argue with though. In 2 years, $35-40K of value simply evaporates into thin air.

tagman · March 2006

can you tell which car is close to me heart?

designman,
I think I may have mentioned to someone here recently (maybe it was you) that I had the very first '97 Boxster, because I placed a deposit three years before it came out. I just recently sold that car. I loved it, even though it needed more power, which the S provided later on, but man, could that car turn a corner into a straight road! My previous 911 Carrera Targa is the car I should have never parted with, but I didn't want to fix the syncromesh problems it had. In hindsight, I wish I had fixed it.
The new Cayman looks terrific, IMO.

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to say in response to the other post was that picking up a recent Jaguar XJ as a model leftover or as slightly used is a great way to get so much car for the money. There are really few situations like it. As I look at the big picture, I believe that history will show that right now is one of the best times to get an XJ. Of course a prerequisite is that you need to appreciate the car, and it often seems to be a love/hate relationship when it comes to Jags. Of course that is understandable, considering the way the '03 and prior cars have too often betrayed their owners with a serious lack of reliability and dependability. That's why the the new generation XJ's ('04 and forward) represent an unusual historical window of opportunity, that won't last, IMO.

TagMan

blkhemi · March 2006

It's really interesting to see that the '06 Caddy DTS' projected value loss is right up there with the big boys: M-B S,SL, Lexus LS among other import brands. The Caddy also beat-out Jaguar XJ, Lincoln TC, and Audi A8. And the good part about it is that it is the one of the best values out there. In fact, would've bought one if the DTS would've been RWD instead of being a nose-heavy fronter.

blckislandguy · March 2006

What do you mean, "screw the fuel economy.."? A 911 C2 gets an easy 26 mpg. The C4 maybe a little less. If someone couldn't get into a 911, they wouldn't get a ride home.

blckislandguy · March 2006

Very interesting list indeed.

The big 3/4 pickups that the dealers have to discount the most because nobody is buying, get a four star rating? The GMC Yukon gets three stars whereas its sibling the Chev Tahoe gets 2 stars? Even Edmunds TMV rates the Tahoe as having higher resale. I won't even get into the fact that the now 9 year old Saab 9-5 of which there are STILL some new '05 left overs around gets a four star rating. An old time used car guy would laugh his head off at these.

Who did the ratings? GM accountants? Anybody who relies on these ratings is going to wind up like the GM stockholders last week after they announced the books were cooked.

designman · March 2006

Tagman, good post on the XJ buying perspective. If you have a passion for a car and want to keep it for quite some time, the depreciation bargains play right into it. The bad thing about the Jag is that the depreciation curve seems steep and steady. It makes a beeline to absolute zero over the years. The great thing about Porsches is that the depreciation curve stabilizes and there is considerable value and demand for them down the road. Sedansnada!

Yes, I recall reading your post about your Porsches. I cant begin to tell you how much I love driving the Boxster S. I love 911s too and am thinking of getting one. Dont ask me which one because I love many of them. The pickins are great both new and old. Porsche buying is a sport in itself. If you know what you are doing you can get a lot of pleasure out of older Porsches and give up very little or nothing in depreciation.

designman · March 2006

A 911 C2 gets an easy 26 mpg.

Hmm, I dont know about easy. Im pretty sure youre looking at pure highway driving in 5th and 6th gears.

designman · March 2006

Anyway best scene of the opening episode - The Lexus GS cutting off the guys after they ate in the restaurant. Did you see that handling!

Im wondering why I dont remember that. Must have stepped away from the TV. What I do remember is Carmela getting the new Cayenne Turbo and pronouncing Porsh-uh correctly while Johnny Sacks' wife said Porsh. I could care less which way it's pronounced but I've read plenty of debates about it.

tagman · March 2006

Yes, I recall reading your post about your Porsches. I cant begin to tell you how much I love driving the Boxster S. I love 911s too and am thinking of getting one

In the Boxster . . . 2nd and 3rd gears taken to the red line with pedal to the floor gives off one of the best howles money can buy!!

Regarding the Jag XJ, I think we're actually going to see some real value hold steady on the '04 and the '05 models (not as sure on the '06 yet). The upcoming production limits with possibly heavily-escalated pricing will make those last new-gen cars much more desireable. But we'll see.

Good luck on the 911 quest!

TagMan

benzster · March 2006

I broke down....
I swore that selling a 82 300td with 70k was like selling a 2yr old mule, but I did it. After a 13 yr run of diesels, I bought a 06 CLK 350. Very bittersweet. After 1 week-end I will say I am impressed. No problem making the yellow " /!\ " light up! Now I have matching silver on black R and CLK's (cute huh)? The handling is great and the way it crosses over RR tracks is astounding! How do they get a firm ride with that kind of travel? Steering ratio is nice...hand over hand not needed. Stereo sounds better than R.

sv7887 · March 2006

Hi All,

I wish the new XJ had taken a new design direction. It looks like an old high school friend that has put on some weight. It doesn't have the grace of the 2003 XJ.

Contrary to popular belief the 98-03 XJ was a fairly reliable car. They had a problem with Nikasil lined engines, but that was limited to the 98-00 models. They are lovely cars with pitiful resale value. I was on the verge of getting one in 2001, but didn't pull the trigger. These cars do have a certain "personality" that takes a little getting used to. I think its "Supermodel" looks more than make up for it though.

With the price of the 2003 XJ falling it sure would make a good value to hold on to. I'd get one, (and get away with it since my wife likes them) but where to put it? Do any of you have multi-car (>3) households? Where do you put all these cars? Unfortunately Land is hard to come by in the Boston area ($330K just for 1/4 acre), so I won't be building another house anytime soon!

As for the "Final" car...It really depends on criteria. I don't think any of these new HELM's will be trouble free over a 10 yr period. There are simply too many gadgets in them to be trouble free over such a long duration. If so inclined you could get a base model LS430 that ought to be as reliable as it gets.

If you are looking for something more stylish or emotion provoking a Jaguar XJ8 would do. They actually score rather reasonably in the JD Power Rankings. It doesn't have AWD, but get a set of Bridgestone Blizzaks and you'll be all set.

Or you could get a S Class with 4 Matic. I'm told that the 4 Matic S Classes will come later in the year. You could save a bundle of $$$ and try and get a leftover 06 S Class too. Reliability is a question, so it's a gamble. I get to pick up my new S430 today, so I'll post about how my ownership experience goes!

Hope this helps,
-Sam

lexusguy · March 2006

I agree that Jag totally blew it on the '04 XJ redesign. Jag has been guilty of extremely timid updates for years though, so I guess to a certain extent a new XJ just like the old was to be expected. I mean look at the S-type. Other than the fact that the original hideous "half-moon" dash is gone, the '06 cars look an awful lot like the first model year.

If Jag is going to survive at all, Callum really needs to knock a total XJ restyle out of the park.

rayng · March 2006

My '01 996 c2 gets 24mpg on 50/50 street/highway driving. So fuel economy is not a problem. It is arguably the most fuel efficient sports car in it's class. I just wished the tank were a little larger for long-distance cruising.

blkhemi · March 2006

"It's arguably the most fuel efficient sports car in it's class."

Not so fast. My '06 Vette Z06 gets a respectable 25 combined MPG(28 on highway alone). The Porsches have good fuel economy, if not best in class.

tagman · March 2006

I agree that a knockout is needed for the future, but the XJ dressed up in long wheelbase is a gorgeous car, IMO. Downright sexy. Just go the the Jag website and view the long wheelbase and Vanden Plas models. I just did, and they are right when they say "gorgeous".

Man, the new XK is also quite a beautiful car. Stunning, actually.

S-type is weak, IMO, and the X-type will be canned soon, as it should.

I still believe, overall, that the very top styling still comes from Europe.

TagMan

blckislandguy · March 2006

Sam,

While land may be expensive now in Boston, like New England weather, just wait a while, it will change. If you can't wait for the downturn to accerate, what you need to do is look outside of Rt 495 for a home and/or rent yourself a barn along Rt 495. A friend of mine went the other way. He bought an old warehouse in a New England inner city for 55K. He keeps his Bentleys and Astons there and putters around on weekends in his "shop".

blkhemi · March 2006

I have to agree with that assumption. Altho the Jag may not have good resale value or reliablity, at least you'll look good when you're stranded on the side of the road. The post '04 Jag's, and as of late the new XJ Portfolio are, IMHO, the best lookers since the mid-80's - early '90's XJS coupes. The Portfolio has the appeal, but the price may be overstepping a tad bit. Similar money can buy a AMG-equipped S or BMW 760il. This may be part of the reason that Jag is only importing very few of them.

One other thing that Jag is lagging in: HP. Even though the car's are incredibly fast, they don't have the horsepower that other key European luxo-cruisers have. Most have optional engines that make over 450-hp, in Mercedes case, 600-hp.

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