Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options

High End Luxury Cars

1…271272274276277…463

Comments

  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Mandisa is obviously a good singer, is worth looking at, and even has a cool name, without being pretentious.

    Reason #32 why I don't watch.

    You know, I kinda thought Acura was on a roll, with a new MDX coming out soon, the TL a big hit, and the TSX winning awards, and a sexy Sports 4 concept in the works.

    But the RL proved that Acura will impose their own glass ceiling. Instead of giving the people what they want, they just dumped as much tech as they could in.

    And where would the TL go next, with only 30 less HP, and a redesign due in 2 years?

    And this CR-V sized SUV doesn't work for me either. Probably under $30k. Oh, well. Let's concentrate on "High-End" luxury!

    I guess Infiniti is closing in on the same problem (their best car is the entry-level car). But they are handling it better.

    The M, now that's hard on the eyes!

    DrFill
  • Options
    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What Acura has been doing since the beginning is providing simple, high quality, one size fits all cars with "what a bargain!" prices. Where Acura failed the RL is its $49K MSRP. Its not a bargain. Its a reasonably competitive car at a reasonably competitive price, but thats not what the Acura brand is about. Nobody is going to pay Lexus money for an Acura.

    "I guess Infiniti is closing in on the same problem (their best car is the entry-level car). But they are handling it better."

    Ok, that doesnt make any sense. It implies first of all that Acura's best car is the RSX? Acura's best car is the TL, which slots above the RSX and TSX, firmly in the middle of the line up.

    Infiniti's best car is the M, hands down, no contest. You may not like the looks, but thats simply your opinion, and doesnt have anything to do with how good the car itself is. The G35 is a very good car, but it has no chance of beating the new 3 series in any comparison test, and I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure it lost in most (if not all) cases to the old 3 series. The M, on the other hand, trounced the Germans at just about every turn. It also finally managed to grab 3rd place in sales from Lexus last month. Now thats what I would call their best car.
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Absolutely brillant post Sam!

    How is the S430?

    M
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You kind of sidestepped the question: Are Toyota Camry, Cadillac Escalade, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Ford Exploder, etc., "losers"?

    These cars, minus the Cadillac aren't luxury vehicles and the standard (to me) is somewhat different, they're about sales more so than a 60K Lexus. The previous Cadillac Escalade was a loser IMO. It sold well, but that was about all it did. It drove like crap, and had an interior to die about, not for.

    When it comes to luxury vehicle I think sales are important, but they aren't as important to what the car brings to the market, which makes a car like the LS a winner, but the SC430 a loser IMO. It brings nothing to its market segment other than sales and typcial Lexus traits. Luxury cars are about design and performance moreso than a Camry or Explorer. Different market brief.

    M
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We'll see what they do. What happened to the HPX? Did the R-Class' slow start make them re-think that one?

    I must say I'm sort of confused about Lexus having a RX350 and a RX400h with bascially the same power. Ditto about the GS450h and upcoming GS460 which will have way more power at 380hp. I though the hybrids were supposed to be the AMG/M chasers according to some?

    M
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The only problem is that according to everyone I've ever heard compare the SC430 to the old SC400/300 says the original SC400 was more fun to drive. I've driven the SC400, but never the SC430.

    From your description about the SC430, which is correct IMO, the only advantage the SC430 has is being a convertible. Mercedes' SL/CLK droptops are cruisers too for the most part, but they still provide an actual driving experience along with all the usual luxury sedan touches. Sure the SC430 is a nice car, but I mean in that category "nice" doesn't cut it IMO. It doesn't bring anything different to the table that a typical Lexus sedan can't.

    Not nitpicking anyone's "metrics" just pointing out how one is used to support this car one min and isn't discussed in the next about a different car. Switching the "metric" depending on the car (when we're talking about all luxury cars) is a little double standardish IMO. This was a shot at the usual sales=best vs. LS430 wins all comparos=best theories.

    M
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Maybe the term "Loser" causes this confusion and greyish area.

    I would call that term rather severe, given we're dealing with relatively successful cars, like Escalade and SC430. Maybe instead of calling them "losers", which is probably inaccurate, maybe some people mean "undesirable"?

    A lot of people might condiser the A8 "desirable". But is it a "Winner"? People aren't really buying it. It sell 5k a year? I like it a lot, but calling a car like that a "Winner" takes some thought. If it were really a "Winner", wouldn't it sell more?

    Escalades and Sc430s may not be "desirable" to you and others, but they are to many, enough people to make them "winners", at least to owners and their respective makers.

    I'm not a fan of cars like CLK or ES330/350, but I can't call them "Losers", can I? They are too popular to be "Losers". Doesn't that make sense?

    The way I see it, in the luxury game, if you can sell enough so that field isn't lapping you, you are "winning" sales, and returning your maker a profit. You can fund a redesign, based on some reasonable market acceptance. Cars like Pheaton and XLR are almost assured of being nothing more than a luxury footnote.

    Regarding the SC430, having sat in the SLK, SL, and SC430, but not the XLR, bringing Lexus values and traits to this convertible class is exactly what makes an SC430 valuable, or a "winner". You seem to discount that "Lexus traits" are HIGHLY DESIRABLE to thousands of buyers.

    Lets say the SL is more enjoyable to drive, and is better looking. These are subjective standards, and with similar power (Until recently), and a $25k higher price tag, an SC430 becomes a smart buy!

    You will disagree, but I find the SC interior to be noticably more opulent than either the SLK or SL. The SLK is quite small, and I barely fit inside. The SL is a little roomier than the Lexus, and has a nice interior, but Lexus has clearly laid the lux on thick compared to the understated SL interior.

    SC = luxury felt

    SL = luxury driven

    Lexus nailed the pricing, and made the XLR seem like a rough draft, for an extra $10k, in comparison. It is a good value compared to the SLK, due to engine and chassis size, and much more luxury inside.

    Bear in mind, the SC430 IS NOT MY KIND OF CAR! I wouldn't buy one! But I see value and luxury in it. Cadillac hasn't earned the right to sell premium convertibles, much less for more than Lexus. And competing with legendary cars like XK and SL for sales, and holding it's own, unlike the XLR, should bring respect, if not admiration from detractors.

    We will not see another XLR, but a "L-Finesse" designed SC460 for 2008 will prove the line has plenty of merit, and a bright future.

    DrFill
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    And you should if service is YOUR top priority.
    IMO and I want to know if others support this...

    If you ask a Lexus owner about their "car" experience, the answer undoubtedly will involve service after the sale.
    If you ask a BMW owner you will hear drivability and performance.
    If you ask a MB owner, they will respond with innovation.
    I could add to this for different categories i.e. M power, AMG, SUV w.e.
    This is over simplified but what are others opinions? What pulls you to a brand? I am an emotional buyer. I would buy a Mini or any Porsche on surface value. I know our Porsche dealer sucks but it would not matter one bit. Is a Porsche reliable... who cares it is a Porsche BABY!
  • Options
    docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    If you ask a MB owner, they will respond with innovation

    Interesting. I am not an MB owner, but as an outsider looking in, I would have thought style, prestige, and (in the past) reliability (assuming we are not talking AMG, which would have other criteria).

    Are there really that many people who feel MB is the innovator of the luxury brands?
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    It [SC] is a good value compared to the SLK, due to engine and chassis size, and much more luxury inside.

    Ba ding, boing #*@?!! ring a ling bling… that one sure trips my circuit breakers.

    To each his own, and yes, the SC is no sales loser, but if a car is going to have two seats, it really needs an iota of performance. In March 2005 R&T did a sports car comparo and the SLK came in last but very close to the 350Z, Z4 and even the Viper (which is on another planet) however it still garnered considerable respect ESPECIALLY with regard to the engine. Too bad the SC didn’t have a stick in order to get into the comparo. Then you’d really see what a loser it is. As far as I’m concerned, the SLK (all versions) is the bargain Mercedes. This will probably set off other circuit breakers, but I'm thinking that perhaps the T-Bird is more of a "bargain" than the SC.
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    Is there another vehicle that offers seamless integration of your i Pod into the audio system using steering wheel controls and a visual display of track info all the while charging in a docking station ????? How about a PCMCIA memory slot? SD and compact flash cards can be used with adapter enabling you pc to be used to digitally transfer music to the vehicle........
    Can the others adjust their Multicontour seats 15 pneumatic chambers to 4 settings of message thru the comand system via voice control.
    Or better yet the question.... what do they have that we don't?
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    which SLK?
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Are you asking about the comparo? The 350 with stick. It's a shame the 55 only has auto... scratchin' my head over that one.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Some people don't want a six.

    Some people can't fit into an SLK.

    Some people see the SLK as a toy, not a luxury GT they want.

    More than some people don't row their own gears for $55k.

    The SLK is really a competitor for Boxster and Z4, not heavyweights like SC, XK, and SL. The SLK is more than an SL, too.

    My point is if you sit in and drive both cars, you'll see why they both have sold well, and are successes in their own right.

    The SC can do 60 in less than 6 seconds, and has great brakes, so it can perform very well, it just is not designed for great handling. Considering the fact that Americans rarely use a car's handling limits, this is a non-factor to many buyers. Everybody uses gas and brakes, and Lexus knows that, so you get plenty of both.

    The SLK is much smaller inside, and is fast, but it takes more effort to use. The SL is prettier, and has more overall ability.

    The SC has tons of lux, a smooth V8 with great power, and has the typical "Lexus traits" that bring buyers in, easy to use, pop-up NAV, well-built, plenty of bling, trusted brand.

    It's a very strong value, compared to either Benz convertible.

    There are plenty of #1 songs that I hate, but if you make it to #1, are you a "Loser"?

    At the end of the day, that's all a maker is trying to do, is sell a car. If they sell cars, they can build value with good quality and service. If you do that you build resale values. If you do that, you build Brand Equity. If you do that, you increase Market Awareness.

    Then people shop you BEFORE BMW, Infiniti, Mercedes. Then, with a strong sales force, the buyer never makes it to the competition.

    Then you never become a "Loser".

    DrFill
  • Options
    docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    So by innovation you meant electronic comfort items and connectivity to non-automotive devices. I assumed you meant automotive innovation like engine and transmission breakthroughs (and certainly, MB has been known for that) rather than incorporating non-automotive technology for automotive uses.

    Yes, many may see that as MB. Still, I would guess (again, as an outsider) that most people walking into MB dealerships would say design and prestige brought them there. As a dealer, you probably hear them talk about all of the gadgets after they have test-driven the cars.

    It might be interesting for you to do an informal straw poll on the next dozen or so customers (new, not repeats) that you work with both before they see the vehicles and then afterwards (such as a simple, "What comes to mind when you think of MB?"). If you do, I'm sure many of us would like to hear the results.

    Edit: I am assuming that you are an MB dealer, of course. "Innovation" may be something you are more keenly aware of, as it is something you need for differentiation of MBs from competitors when discussing vehicles with a customer. For example, I probably know all about a vehicles engine, transmission, acceleration stats, etc when I walk into a dealership, but I probably don't know all of the minutiae at my fingertips in the driver's seat.
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    My issue has always been, Why compare a v-6 with a v-8 if you are doing a performance piece. If you compare similarly priced vehicles the MB will always fall short on performance. Put the V-8 against the V-8 and fail MB on price point only. 4.6 sec 0-60 on a SLK55. Innovation in drivetrane? How about a 7 speed tranny that will out perform a 6 speed manual. Antilock brakes and crumple zones were first incorporated on a Mercedes. Distronic Plus, Dynamic rear view monitor, Night view assist with infrared technology, cutting points for rescue workers to extract occupants if needed without deploying safety systems, and enhanced presafe systems all are innovations.
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I agree that if you are into Lexus luxury, then the SC makes sense, and obviously it does since so many people buy them. But I have problems with the value aspect. If I’m spending $66K on luxury, I go with a car that can fit 5 full-size adults… and get good handling with cargo space to boot. I respect other people’s choices but I guess two-seat luxury just doesn’t fit my mission statement.

    SLK takes more effort to use than an SC? An SL at 1000 pounds more than an SLK has more ability than the latter? Hmm. I enjoy your posts and don’t feel like debating this. I love my Lexican amigos in spite of their general aversion to sports cars and performance sedans. Indeed, Lexus has a beat on its market.

    ;-)
  • Options
    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Maybe the term "Loser" causes this confusion and greyish area.

    Doc, I take full responsibility for originally injecting the word "loser" as it pertains to the SC (and XLR).

    I don't think there is confusion as a result. Actually, there have been some very interesting and valuable perspectives posted on the vehicle, including many of our long-time respected posters.

    I noticed an interesting statement you made at the end of one of your recent posts and I will display it here and then comment.

    Doc, you said:

    We will not see another XLR, but a "L-Finesse" designed SC460 for 2008 will prove the line has plenty of merit, and a bright future.

    This statement, IMO, is very misleading, and yes, I will substantiate why I say that. Firstly, by saying that we will not see another XLR, do you really believe that Cadillac will not replace it eventually with a better sports coupe? In the same comparison, won't the SC be replaced by a better sports coupe, specifically a "L-Finesse" vehicle?

    So, who cares how they badge the replacements? A replacement is a replacement, regardless of it's badge.

    Just think about it . . . if they are both cancelled, and need to be replaced, then what's the difference? To me, that is essentially an admission by the manufacturers that the vehicles are basically "losers".

    I sincerely hope the replacements will be successful . . . but any success of those upcoming replacements does not give any "success" status to the discontinued vehicles they replaced, as your statement granted solely to the SC.

    See what I mean?

    No hostility here at all, doc . . . just my honest opinion!

    :)

    TagMan
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    Yes I do work for MB. ;)So, back to the question of what draws one to a brand. Is it prestige? When I was in sales the first question, after what is your name etc., was "What is important to you and what are you driving now and why?".
    If you add up the patents and innovations that have been brought to market from Manufacturers as a whole, which do you think would come out ahead? Maybe even the question of how many MB innovations compared to their own are on their cars??
    If she is ugly, how will you ever know she has a great personality?
    I am like most I think. Looks come first for me, drivability second, stuff third, and hope it stays together. I had a 67 912 that was a blast. That lets you know where I am coming from.
  • Options
    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am like most I think. Looks come first for me, drivability second, stuff third, and hope it stays together.

    Personally, I think looks are paramount in a vehicle.

    But, the Lexus success story contradicts that looks are the number one priority. The Lexus success has a sturdy foundation that places quality and reliability as the top priority. As long as looks are decent enough, with adequate "techy" features, the Lexus story is about QUALITY first . . . not just looks, or even performance. They are secondary.

    It would seem that Ford's slogan "Quality is job one" was actaully undertaken by Lexus!

    I'm like you, though. I'll sacrifice a reasonable amount of quality any day for looks and/or performance!

    TagMan
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    You stated:
    The SC can do 60 in less than 6 seconds, and has great brakes, so it can perform very well, it just is not designed for great handling. Considering the fact that Americans rarely use a car's handling limits, this is a non-factor to many buyers. Everybody uses gas and brakes, and Lexus knows that, so you get plenty of both.

    Would you be as impressed if I told you my 5klb 203" long R350 will stop as well? The R500 is only 6.7 0-60 and it is a minivan. It can probably out slalom it as well.
    Apples and Oranges sure but at 126' to stop? That may mean the difference between a collision or not. I think about the limits of handling because the limits are what we push when we actively avoid an accident. You can't beat MB for passive handling assistance. From the moment you lift your foot from the brakes quickly, the vehicle responds. Turn on the wipers and the brakes are kept dry by the system. Not to flame you, but "very well" handling at times may not cut it.
    I think if you compared say the SL55/65 to say a Ferrari you might see value. And why wouldn't you?
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    With the level of incentives, and days supply, would you replace an XLR with something similar?

    Cadillac went 15 years without replacing Allante. The XLR may only wait 4-5 years, but I can't believe GM/Cadillac can afford to invest in another fruitless vehicle, given it's luke-warm reception, ability to fund it's replacement, and the overall state-of-the-union at GM.

    I wouldn't start placing any deposit for a 2009.

    Being redesigned and being cancelled are two very differnt things.

    Are you saying you used the term "Loser" just to stir the pot? (Don't steal from my playbook!) :P

    The SC430 has a customer base, or people who will be in the market for a replacement convertible, from Lexus, over the next 3-4 years. And it is 3-4 times that of the XLR.

    If you see some great, needy market for a Cadillac convertible, show me a way to fill that void, please.

    If you were GM, would you throw a Billion dollars at an XLR replacement? With 7-8k sales after 2 years?

    DrFill
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    First off, before you compare an R_Class to an SC, don't you think Mercedes should sell a few R350s first? It makes an XLR seem like a Prius in days supply!

    6.7 to sixty means it is slower than the SC, so I don't see your point thur. :confuse:

    I was referring to the the overall performance abilities of the SC, not the handling. It can brake and accelerate with any of it's competition. What it gives up in handling, it makes up for in luxury. And will save you $25k over an SL. This equals value. It's not as pretty as the SL, or as agile, but is not trying to be an SL, or $90k, either.

    DrFill
  • Options
    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "To each his own, and yes, the SC is no sales loser, but if a car is going to have two seats, it really needs an iota of performance."

    Uh, the SC technically has four seats. Come on, are you seriously trying to imply that the SC430 competes with 350Z and Z4? The SC430 competes with the XK, the 6 series, and the SL. Its not a sports car, and it doesnt compete with the SLK or Z4. Lexus is going to use an IS350C for that.
  • Options
    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    With the level of incentives, and days supply, would you replace an XLR with something similar?

    If you see some great, needy market for a Cadillac convertible, show me a way to fill that void, please.

    If you were GM, would you throw a Billion dollars at an XLR replacement? With 7-8k sales after 2 years?

    Doc, the real question, then, is whether or not to replace the XLR? Cadillac's recent success is a terrific surprise story, IMO. Fortunate for GM. I think it is entirely logical for the flagship marque of GM to have a sports coupe. Not just Chevrolet's Corvette.

    Are you saying you used the term "Loser" just to stir the pot? (Don't steal from my playbook!)

    Ha . . . Doc, I really believe that the SC is in need of major replacement. You can call that "cancelled" or "redesigned", but to me, in this case, it's the same thing. The current SC is a "loser", IMO, and I actually meant what I said. The SC relies too heavily on the Lexus name, in general, for its sales and not enough on its own merit. It's a goofy-looking puffy car, with only reasonable performance, IMO, and any successful replacement should be different enough to qualify the current version as being "cancelled".

    There is nothing gained by debating semantics and rhetoric.

    I appreciate the reply. :)

    TagMan
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Uh, the SC technically has four seats.

    So does the 911. Do you want to acknowledge those as seats? Even the 911 is known as sports car and not really a GT. The reason is because of its sport hardware, configuration and low center of gravity, none of which the SC have. Furthermore, if “technically” had any significance, the 911 would have been banned in that R&T comparo.

    Come on, are you seriously trying to imply that the SC430 competes with 350Z and Z4?

    Quite the opposite which was my point in discussing the SLK/SC comparison that Dr Fill brought up. The SLK was able score some points against the real sports cars. The SC can’t. Therefore it doesn’t show up on the radar of the more serious sports car buyer, hence it is no bargain.

    I’m not sure what you mean by “competes”. Do you mean in the marketplace? If so, then yes, I think there are plenty of people who cross shop the SC with sports cars and wind up smitten with the luxury, not to mention that they rationalize the two back “seats”, getting a whit of utility from them as is the case with the 911.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Uh, are you seriously going to say a redesigned car, with no gap in construction, is the same as a cancelled vehicle, that isn't replaced for 3-6 years, and has it's name changed?

    The XLR name has no value or equity. It's run will end without fanfare, interest, or adulation. It will join Cimarron and Allante in the cellar of Cadillac lore.

    Lexus is great, but nobody is going to buy a $65k convertible just because it is a Lexus. And with somehwere around 40k sold, word-of-mouth must be strong, and you can check this site and se it has a rather lofty resale value as well.

    I wish Cadillac could make a "Loser" like that!

    DrFill
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    First off, before you compare an R_Class to an SC, don't you think Mercedes should sell a few R350s first?
    Hmmmm... gloves are off I guess. No, I wasn't comparing sales numbers. I don't have to sell a diamond to know its clarity.

    6.7 to sixty means it is slower than the SC, so I don't see your point thur
    But you can see the point that it can't stop short of a 5000 lb. minivan. SLK v-6 5.4 sec ahem.

    Value to you is weighted heavily on plush leather and Mercedes SLK inspired top function dating back to 97. I understand. It is not as pretty as the SLor as agile but it is less expensive.
    Has no steering wheel controls nor a multifunction display in the cluster, but is luxurious. I don't usually comment on appearance due to the nature of visual preference but Marantz comes to mind when I look at the dash. Lots of pretty wood though.
    is not trying to be an SL true. I hope MB continues their trend which is far from the "air brushed bowling ball look" that Lexus so grandly captures.
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    If we continue to talk about losers and luxury sports cars, I think it would be in order to start prognosticating about the LF-A.
  • Options
    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hey, Doc, always good to hear from you.

    Remember, I never said the SC was as big a "loser" as the XLR. I said it was interesting that YOU originally picked the XLR as the vehicle to compare the SC against. It was at that time that I noted the comparison of one "loser" against an even bigger "loser". So, for the record, I always maintained that the XLR is a "loser", and a bigger one than the SC.

    As far as the "seamless" nature of the SC replacement that you imply will happen . . . we will see what Lexus actually does when all is said and done. The point I still maintain is that, regardless of the "seamless" vs. a "time gap" nature of the replacement, it still will qualify as a major replacement for very good reason, IMO.

    Just the fact that the change is most likely to be so dramatic is admission and evidence of the need that Lexus must see, not just me. Don't you see it as well? As great as Lexus is, you do not need to defend it at all cost. For the record, you know I have HUGE respect for Lexus and its success. I believe I understand the true nature of the Lexus success story. But, I still think the SC is not up to Lexus expectations, regardless of how they publicly position themselves, and its replacement will be proof enough . . . and a very wise move by a very wise company.

    Can we move on now?

    :)

    TagMan
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    First off, I don't have to defend Lexus at all costs. All I do is try to intersperce fact amongst our speculation, to produce a more vibrant and accurate picture of our automotive luxury marketplace.

    Calling the SC a "Loser" kind of contradicts this "respect" for Lexus, of which you speak.

    I don't know what direction the SC will go upon redesign. I'd expect a sharper edge to it, overall. But if you labeled the IS300 as a "Loser", you'd have a much better leg to stand on.

    I hope I don't tread on any trademarks for infringement, but name the "Biggest Loser":

    Mercedes R-Class (struggling in it's first 6 months)
    Lexus SC430

    Then name the "Winner".

    DrFill
  • Options
    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Therefore it doesn’t show up on the radar of the more serious sports car buyer, hence it is no bargain"

    Obviously S2000, Z, or Boxster drivers arent going to like the SC. And I have a pretty good feeling that SC drivers are going to dislike those cars for their lack of space and luxury. I fail to understand how that makes the SC "not a bargain" though. As I said, its competition is the Jag, the big BMW, and the Benz. It undercuts all of those cars by a healthy margin. Thats why its been a sales success. The SC400, which I agree was a more fun car, was not a bargain compared to the CLK, failed to compete on features, and thus was a dud in the market place, despite its general good looks.
  • Options
    blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Benzster, it seems like we are now in agreement that what draws most of those very serious, often self centered, people into a MB dealership to buy a car is not MBs impressive record of innovation. Rather it is simply prestige, ego, a desire for recognition of life long achievement, etc.
  • Options
    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I never said that service was my TOP priority. The car itself comes first. The great service is icing on the cake.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I had my flow on, having a real discussion going, for the first time in months, and they shut down the servers in the middle of the day.

    I can't decide if Ford or GM runs this place sometimes. :mad:

    DrFill
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So in other words you're twisting the criteria around to fit the SC430 and not the XLR. The XLR has gotten its fair share of good press and it has come withing spitting distance of the 3K a year that Cadillac said they wanted to sell so that doesn't make it a loser, especially for a come-from-behind the pack brand like Cadillac. I have to be careful here because I'm debating the XLR with elsewhere. :D

    Lets say the SL is more enjoyable to drive, and is better looking. These are subjective standards, and with similar power (Until recently), and a $25k higher price tag, an SC430 becomes a smart buy!

    Yeah if you want less car for less money. It doesn't look as good as the Benz, perform like the Benz, nor does it have the safety equipment or technology of the Benz. It doesn't come anywhere near the standard Lexus theme of offering a nearly equal experience for less money, all the SC430 does is cost less money while offering way less.

    You will disagree, but I find the SC interior to be noticably more opulent than either the SLK or SL. The SLK is quite small, and I barely fit inside. The SL is a little roomier than the Lexus, and has a nice interior, but Lexus has clearly laid the lux on thick compared to the understated SL interior.

    Of course I will because the SC430's interior the definition of gaudy and tasteless IMO. It looks like Lexus tried very hard to create something special only to wind up with something that looks very tacky especially with all the light colored wood clashing with the metallic looking trim with black dash panels. There is way too many themes/element clashing and jocking for attention, IMO. Its for the pinky ring set though I will say the ergonomics are nearly perfect and everything is very easy to use. It just looks contrived.

    Lexus nailed the pricing, and made the XLR seem like a rough draft, for an extra $10k, in comparison. It is a good value compared to the SLK, due to engine and chassis size, and much more luxury inside.

    The SC430 really doesn't compete with the SLK for the simple fact that the SLK is a roadster than one actually drives compared to cruising specialist SC430, the SLK is a much more livelier car. If anything the wannabe 4-seat SC430 compete with the CLK500 Cabrio and the SC430 can't cut it there either. The CLK Cabrio has a back seat you can actually use and of course the styling and driving experience beat the Lexus handidly.

    A lot of people might condiser the A8 "desirable". But is it a "Winner"? People aren't really buying it. It sell 5k a year? I like it a lot, but calling a car like that a "Winner" takes some thought. If it were really a "Winner", wouldn't it sell more?

    This is why I say you can't just look at sales and determine which car is a winner and which is a loser. The A8 is one of the best cars on the road hampered by a brand name that isn't as prestigious as Mercedes/BMW and a dealer network not nearly as large or strategically placed as MB/BMW/Lexus. The car itself a winner and it has never been ranked dead last among its peers either.

    I would call that term rather severe, given we're dealing with relatively successful cars, like Escalade and SC430. Maybe instead of calling them "losers", which is probably inaccurate, maybe some people mean "undesirable"?

    Ok, I agree, but wasn't that you that used the word "loser" first to describe the XLR? Truthfully there are very few loser cars in the luxury segment, so I'd call a car like the SC430 a segment laggard. :P

    There are plenty of #1 songs that I hate, but if you make it to #1, are you a "Loser"?

    The Lexus brand, no, but the SC430 itself isn't #1 in its segment in sales either.

    M
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I fail to understand how that makes the SC "not a bargain" though. As I said, its competition is the Jag, the big BMW, and the Benz. It undercuts all of those cars by a healthy margin.

    That is because IMO it doesn't offer the experience of a 6-Series/SL/XK and you're not getting anything more than a 2-door LS430 with a convertible top and that really couldn't be more boring to someone looking at a SL550, 650i Cabrio or XK. I mean seriously look at the SC430 compared to those cars. It isn't even a contest no matter how much cheaper the SC430 is. I think Lexus knew this and decided to price the SC430 at the CLK level and not the SL/XK level.

    M
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well you quoted me a little out of context. I was debating the value of the SC vs SLK as offered by DrFill. These cars are in different categories. I certainly have no problem with the notion that the SC offers value on the luxury level. However, the competitors you mentioned still offer more on the performance level. So, pick your flavor and there’s the value. All I know is, with the SLK350 at $48K and the SC at $66K, it's a no-brainer for the Benz on my score sheet.

    By the way, for someone who has a taste for the likes of Jags and Maseratis, I don’t get your fondness for the SC400. In my opinion it is as plain and uninspiring as it gets... as interesting as a bar of ivory soap. I certainly think the SC430 has more styling booty and panache. Then again, I am one of the few who see some merit in styling of the Aztek and sneer at the new Astons, so I guess there’s no accounting for taste. Merc, my apologies for mentioning those two in the same sentence.

    ;-)
  • Options
    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    By the way, for someone who has a taste for the likes of Jags and Maseratis, I don’t get your fondness for the SC400. In my opinion it is as plain and uninspiring as it gets... as interesting as a bar of ivory soap. I certainly think the SC430 has more styling booty and panache. Then again, I am one of the few who see some merit in styling of the Aztek and sneer at the new Astons, so I guess there’s no accounting for taste. Merc, my apologies for mentioning those two in the same sentence.

    Man you said a lot in this paragraph. Sneering at Aston-Martins will not be tolerated and will cause your membership in the Circular Talk Society to be revoked! They SC430 has styling booty and panache? I don't know what to say (or picture) reading that....

    Don't worry about mentioning the SLK and SC in the same sentence, sneering at Aston-Martins that is the more serious offense. :surprise:

    Have you seen the new Audi TT? What do you think?

    M
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Context my man, context! SC430 has more booty THAN the SC400.

    I need to see more shots of the TT. From the front it looks like the best variant of the new Audis. The lateral intakes go a long way in mitigating the dominant fish-mouth grille. And the fender flares don’t seem as egregious as those on the Q7. Judging from that shot, I do like it better than the current version which is as interesting as a paper clip.
  • Options
    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    By the way, on the subject of value and Astons, I submit the Vantage V8. Here’s another no-brainer on my score sheet—the Porsche C2S which is some $38K less. That is strictly badge money. The Porsche looks better, drives better (and I don't need to drive the Aston to know this) and flys better—recently clocked by one of the mags (I seem to recall C&D) at under 4 secs 0-60. Want the Aston? Just kiss that $38K goodbye. It's kind of like lighting cigars with 100-dollar bills.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Give you an inch, and you damn sure will take a mile, eh?

    The SC doesn't offer the pop-up rollbar, or the performance-oriented acrynyms the Benz does, but it's interior is more luxurious (you have a tristed way of admitting this), and offered the same speed and power for 3 years. A quarter-mile charge was pretty much a dead heat!

    Very little effort was expended on the SL's interior. So you call the SC guady and tasteless. I call the SL a generally weak effort, not befitting it's $100k-encroaching price tag.

    You seem awfly impressed with the queer styling of the CLK, which has gone from clear E-class derivitive to....queer. How about something appraching the impcat the original SC had? Will we see that from Mercedes? Or will we get an R350 instead?

    The SC sold 17k units in 2003. Name me a premium convertible that sold that many?

    Are you saying if Lexus sells 17k SC430s it's first year, and Cadillac sells 3-4k, the Caddy is not a loser?

    You may fall for GMs PR spins, but not me. No way.

    Now if they are willing to admit that Lexus is 500% better than Cadillac, then that garbage has some credibility.

    I dig the A8, but it won't sell, and I can see how someone would call it a "Loser". It barely outsells the XLR!

    DrFill
  • Options
    bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    The SC sold 17k units in 2003. Name me a premium convertible that sold that many?

    I'm not sure where you got your 17k figure.... According to autochannel.com, Lexus sold 10,298 SC430s in 2003. Then they sold 9,708 in 2004 and 8,360 in 2005. Looks like a downward trend.
  • Options
    benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    I certainly wish this was not the case. I would say the prestige was built on history, but the younger segments are not in touch with it. They don't know why they think the way they do. That only gets them in the door. With so much info available, it is hard to get to what MB thinks matters. I would ask a customer what was important or what they liked about their current vehicle and relate the info accordingly. If I had talked about seat squibs to an uninterested party, they would have left and bought the cupholders every time.
    what draws most of those very serious, often self centered, people into a MB dealership to buy a car is not MBs impressive record of innovation. Rather it is simply prestige, ego, a desire for recognition of life long achievement, etc.
    Hmmmm... well yes. I would agree sorta. If you mean a lottery winner. JK :D It takes a certain type of personality to be successful to the extent that an SL purchase is obtainable certainly. "Rewarding ones self".... I think I can dig that up in copy with MBUSA on the tag line.
    That is why librarians and teachers buy Subaru and CEO's and NBA players buy MB's. :blush:
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I meant, 2002, the first year it was produced. Sorry.

    Merc

    Lexus sells over 300k units a year from less than 200 stores, nationwide. And they sold 40k LS in 1992 for over $45k, which with inflation, puts it's price near Audi's A8 today. Numbers of dealers is no excuse.

    If it's "All That", people will go get the car. People wait 3 months for a Mini Cooper. Or Prius. If it's great, people will pay over sticker, drive 200 miles, wait 3-4 months to order one, etc.

    DrFill
  • Options
    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "By the way, for someone who has a taste for the likes of Jags and Maseratis, I don’t get your fondness for the SC400. In my opinion it is as plain and uninspiring as it gets... as interesting as a bar of ivory soap. I certainly think the SC430 has more styling booty and panache.:

    Woah, I never said that I think the SC400 is the best looking car ever, or that its one of my favorite cars. When I was talking about the SC400's styling, I meant in context to a 1992 car design. When the SC hit back then, it looked great, certainly much better than the Lincoln Mark VIII, the BMW 8 series (still had pop up headlights!) and the Benz S-class coupe\CL class. The critics at the time also praised the car's styling, and it earned a 10-best award.

    The SC430 certainly has more booty, I will give you that. But it was an ugly car in 2001, and its still ugly.
  • Options
    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Let's see if I got this right. Because the A8 doesn't have the mind-boggling sales of the LS or S, that makes it a loser? I'm not quite following that assumptions as the A8 has the beans to play in this arena, not something the current bloated LS can say, what with it's Buick Park Ave-esque styling.

    I'm the proud owner of '06 A8 W-12 and am very impressed with the car. Top quality and craftsmanship SHOULD be the focus of the perspective buyer, not because it sales so well I guess I'll buy one too.

    I've owned all of the big-league rides, most recently a S65 AMG and BMW 760il. Both were great cars, respectively. And yes, they do outsell the Audi, by quite a wide margin. But it's the build quality and customer service of the Audi that did it for me. Maybe it's the small dealer network that affords such great customer service. But it does work. Not something that I can say for my recent experiences with Mercedes and Lexus.

    Lexus,M-B,BMW,Jag, even Caddy outsell Audi. Yet somehow this makes the car look bad. Not necessarily true. The A8 is more that deserving of a place in the big-leagues, sales or not.
  • Options
    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Those darn servers reminded me of the old movie line from Cool Hand Luke, starring Paul Newman . . . (spoken with a southern slang) "What we have here is a failure to communicate!"

    Anyway, Doc, I wanted to get back to you on that SC stuff we were ping ponging with.

    Here's what you said, Doc:

    Calling the SC a "Loser" kind of contradicts this "respect" for Lexus, of which you speak.

    Not at all. C’mon now, Doc. I absolutely do respect Lexus, but NOBODY bats 1000.

    As far as the Mercedes R goes, I am already on record on that one. But once again comparing the SC to other vehicles with issues, or to losers, whether the R, XLR, or anything else, does not somehow change or elevate the status of the SC.

    Let me put it this way . . . Placing the SC in the gloomy shadow of other losers is not the best way to view the SC, IMO.

    Is the SC well crafted? Yes, of course, but that’s simply not enough. Like I said, Lexus is aware of this and the replacement will be proof of a better direction.

    If I truly believed I have unfairly slammed the SC, I would be apologizing right now . . . but what I do believe is that history will prove that a future replacement Lexus sports coupe will more likely be a real “winner”, and it surely won’t be the current SC.

    :)

    TagMan
  • Options
    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Here's more like what I would expect from Lexus in the sports coupe department: (play the video)

    http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=7004&categoryId=23

    But here's the one (from our friends at BMW) that I really like!!!!:

    http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=7006&categoryId=21

    TagMan
  • Options
    volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Like it or not, sales volume is the final arbiter in the winner or loser category.
    How well a car does in its category determines alot about its fate. Slow selling cars are withdrawn or overhauled, good sellers are lauded by the motor co. and beloved by dealers.

    The A8 is a fine car, but it clearly can't match the salea of the BMW or Benz or Lexus.
    Consider the A8's twin, the VW Phaeton. A car with "loser" clearly stamped on its hood. As a car it may be a fine one, but it hasn't clicked with its intended market demographic.
    Resale is also different for the winners and loser in the auto market. A8's have been wonderful bargains on the used market because of their also ran status.
    According to Manheim, a 2002 Audi S8 w/ 50k will fetch @ $25,000 at auction.
    A 2002 BMW 745i w/ 50k will fetch @ $35,000, ditto for the S500. The S8 started at $72000 that year, the bimmer @ $68,000.
    If you are buying used, the S8 is the way to go, but if you bought one new, your taking a 10k bath compared to a bimmer owner.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles