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Comments
Good point, Lexusguy. And, of course, Toyota/Lexus has a treasure chest of resources to do something about it expeditiously.
I give them credit (and respect, in case the Doc is reading
TagMan
Benzster - I see the service department 6 times in 3 years and that is why I am going to buy a car??? You've got to be kidding with that comment - it's as far out in left field as it gets.
There is a difference. The LS might be better than all the premium sedans you can name, but the A8, to me, is the MOST desirable!
2. My point is getting twisted quickly, and often.
As I've said several times before, there is more than one way to be a "winner" in the marketplace. YOu can outshine others dynamically, in comparisons, change the marketplace, or just outsell the competition.
By comparing the SC to cars that are "Losing" in the market or segments, I am disproving the SC as a "Loser".
I don't believe in degrees of "Loser". The A8 doesn't sell, and doesn't win comparisons. And it hasn't affected it's segment, except to bring in the Pheaton, which was a true "Loser".
AS MUCH AS I LIKE THE A8, I'd have to slap a "Loser" tag on it. That kinda goes for the Audi line, in general. It really isn't the A8's fault. The company hasn't made any headway over the last 10-15 years.
Lexus has conquered countries in 10 years, what has Audi done again?
The SC has EXCEEDED sales expectation for 4 years in a row. Does Lexus, or it's many owners, see it as a loser?
Resale values? How they doin'? Ok.
For Lexus, I'd call the ES250 (1990-1992), the GS300 (1993-1997), and the IS300 (2001-2005), "Losers".
That's all. Considering many companies are currently dragging 2 or 3 around, per year, that's pretty impressive, for 15+ years!
There's a difference between cars you may not like, and "losers".
DrFill
DrFill
totally on how it will be used and who will be driving it. A "soccer Mom",(a Volvo, Subaru or any "PC"
minivan),a floor trader looking to have hotties jump into his car,( Porsche,
Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin), a loyal grandson going to visit his retired grandparents in Florida perhaps,( an
"S" Mercedes), a CEO with a chauffeur
who seeks anonymity, (a VW Phaeton
W12), a love affair substitute you
can dump when you wish, (a Maserati),
and so on and on and on. Different
strokes for different folks. At least
in this country you don't have to
settle for a Trabant or Dacia, whether
you want it or not.
Ever heard of the "Tatra" by the Czech
who taught Dr. Porsche all who knew
rear engine design.
There is a lot of history out there
and many different national
preferences. In Germany, if you tell
a local you want a Mercedes, he will
tell you to call a Taxi.
Try them all, you have earned it !!!
has to wonder if he also has a huge
supply of Viagra in his A8
glove box. Is he good enough to take
the A8 to 160 on the Autobahn
or a track? Is he all show instead
of all go? The long hair makes one
ponder.
cars. You seem intent on the best
deal, not the best car.
designer "bespoke" suits with the
labels sewn on the inside, not the
outside of their garments.
I agree with Tony - yes, you've been missed.
DrFill
;-)
And for the good laughs from Designman and LG... Yes, MB is solidly ahead of Lexus around here, afterall we had a staunch Lexusophile (Sam) move over to MB. BTW, congrats Sam for the new S430. You have a fine automobile and some of us are plainly jealous of you, in a good-natured way, of course.
DrFill, you are doing splendidly well ! So are ljflx and LG. As for the MB crowd, well we do have some very good posters around now. Its all good. Makes for more spirited debates, and Pat losing more of his/her hair
Truly glad to be back to Edmunds, and of course my fav board - HELM.
:sick:
The Porsche-VW relationship is long and convoluted. It is a saga that has familial, emotional, historical and financial implications. Its roots are deep. An interesting part of the plot is the Snidely Whiplash role that Mercedes plays in the eyes of Porsche royalty, which started with the firing of progenitor Ferdinand Porsche from Daimler-Benz in the 1920s, and extends right up to today with Porsche’s 20% stake in VW as partly a move to keep Daimler-Chrysler from keeping its mitts off VW.
Dr. Porsche’s grandson Ferdinand Piech of VW fame emerges not only as the key player, but a kingpin who has the full support of the dozens of Porsche’s and Piechs who have a controlling interest in Porsche, in spite of Piech being portrayed by the press as somewhat of a buffoon thanks to Phaeton and the follies of VW, and perhaps a megalomaniac when ventures such as Phaeton and Veyron are considered.
As far as Porsche’s financial interest, consider this. Porsche Holding, a company also owned by the Porsche’s and Piechs, is the distributor for Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche. With VW as Germany’s largest car company and Porsche the most profitable, the revenue is considerable, so just add 2 and 2.
And when you consider the role the German government plays as an 18% owner of VW it becomes clearer still. As VW flounders, the government does not want to make job cuts that are deemed necessary by common-sense business practices. There are efforts to repeal Germany’s maximum 20% ownership rule because it is considered restraint of trade by the EU. If this happens as expected, and the government divests it interests, the Porsche/Peich family wants to protect the mutually beneficial arrangements that have been forged between VW and Porsche from takeover predators among other things.
Among other things. The grudge against Mercedes.
The Porsche-Peich descendants never forgot the supposedly unwarranted jilting the family patriarch Dr. Porsche received at the hands of Daimler-Benz. Plus, DB attempted to banish him in such a way as to prevent him from being recruited by competitors—sordid to say the least. Although this was long ago it seems Porsche will be vigilant and vengeful for quite some time. Include VW in there because Dr. Porsche is at the very heart and soul of VW. Not only did he design the original beetle, but he and Anton Peich, who married his daughter Louise and is Ferdinand Peich’s father, managed VW during the war. And for 25 years after the war, Porsche acted as VW’s engineering office. It is also said that VW covertly funded some major Porsche racing programs later on.
Anyway, in the last half of the 20th Century Daimler-Benz assigned design contracts to Porsche engineering/consulting. It is suggested that this was an effort on Daimler Benz’s part to kiss and make up. The following is an anecdote from the article which I find to be hilarious. Not only does Porsche seem to defy business acumen, it says what kind of neighbors share a fence in Stuttgart. I think it speaks volumes about the disdain and mistrust the Porsche family has for Mercedes, and how it is rooted in their psyche:
“Early in the 1990s, when Porsche had capacity to spare, Mercedes asked it to engineer and produce the fast 500E as a gesture it hoped would be interpreted as friendly. In the mid-1990s, Daimler-Benz came close to forging an alliance with Porsche. Both had decided to build SUVs and there seemed good reason for them to cooperate in their design and manufacture. Toward the end of 1996, the deal was on track for signing. There would be a Porsche version of the coming M-Class, with the two companies sharing the overall engineering costs and certain components.
The parties sat for a final discussion. Across the table from the Porsche contingent, said Porsche boss Wendelin Wiedeking, ‘someone on the board said they would want a small piece of the company.’ This was as a red flag to a bull. Wiedeking knew that the Porsches and Piechs would never entertain such an idea.. ‘I’m not spending a second to discuss this.’ rejoined the Porsche chief. ‘Let’s close the books on this right now.’ The other party was dumbfounded that Wiedeking wouldn’t even talk about the idea of a Mercedes shareholding in Porsche, but for the Porsche man ‘even one share would be too much. I didn’t even speak to the shareholders about it.’ He knew they wouldn’t tolerate even a chink that might give Daimler-Benz access to ownership in Porsche.”
Wow, it seems Porsche knows how to spit into the wind. And to add some perspective you have to consider that they gave DB the finger at a precarious time, when a jump start was needed and the Boxster was yet to be released. I guess you can’t help but wonder what would have become of that MB/Porsche SUV, not that it matters because Cayenne was extremely successful regardless. Is it possible the jilt was planned all along and that Porsche actually went in with a chip on its shoulder? Nah, these are sober, serious business people, right? Gotta wonder.
Needless to say, Porsche interest in VW is rock-solid, genetic, has plenty of financial implications that were already in place for some time, and seems determined to exclude Daimler-Chrysler as a suitor. What will happen to VW, Europe’s largest car maker? Who knows, but the Porsche/Peich family seems to think it is a good investment. Hmm, I guess none of them participate in these forums.
One thing seems sure. Sink or swim, Porsche and VW are attached at the hip. Blood is thick and apparently none is thicker than that of Ferdinand Piech, a veteran auto exec/engineer who is chairman of VW’s supervisory board and also a member of Porsche’s supervisory board, the man who gave us Phaeton and Veyron, the man who masterminded the stock purchase and, perhaps most importantly, the most influential family descendant in a bloodline that sits at or near the top of Germany’s automotive royalty.
Interesting stuff.
OMG, do we finally have an answer to the "Pat, The Androgenous Host" question? :confuse:
As you will see, I don't think too many of us have changed our minds or biases over the past few months, but I think we have been doing a much better job of finding ways to disagree without being disagreeable - even with the recent discussion of the word "Loser".
garyh1 is definately right about that! Welcome back, oac. I guess it's true . . . never say never.
oac - If you've read the posts, you know I'm guilty as charged for injecting the word "loser" . . . but honestly, I never thought it would go that far. In the end though, a lot of good dialogue came out of it, so I feel redeemed. After all, as you well know, things could have gone a lot worse. As I think about it, most of the guys were actually darned nice about it . . . they could have really grilled me on it, but they never did. And as amazing as it sounds, Pat only had to step in one time as I recall, and it may have been about something else anyway.
Look forward to your spirited contributions!
designman - that was a nice piece about the Porsche & VW relationship . . . very cool.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I find that sticking a "loser" badge on the ENTIRE Audi line is just flat-out blasphemy. Take the A4, a great car with some class leading technology and available AWD, long before any carmaker in this field decided to start this. In fact, it has been quoted several times that Audi is the force behind carmakers offering AWD in the mid/high luxury car field. The FSi engines and DSG transmissions are years ahead of other direct injection and sequential shift(ie: BMW SMG, Maserati/Ferrari's F1, with there abrupt shift quality ) transmission.
So in order to slap a "loser" sticker on a car, one would know what it takes to eventually become a loser. A car's merit shouldn't be based on how many we see on the road on a daily basis, but how well the car delivers on the promise told. And my A8 more than delivers.
No other carmaker in the biz(Maybach, Bentley, RR, and Maser with-holding) delivers the craftsmanship and build quality of Audi, yes not even Lexus. It's this impeccable finish that drags me and 5500 other U.S. "losers" a year to buy an Audi A8. The car is such a loser, yet in fact, it remains on the best pick lists of many publications and European journals.
Yes there are other very interesting entries in this arena. I for one am in love with the S550, not so much so with the upcoming still-conservative LS460, altho it too will bring new technology and a first-ever LWB variant.
But when Mercedes first released pictures of the S550, people were quick to gawk in horror that they screwed up the world's premiere luxury car. But when it hit the streets and auto shows, the gawks turned into ooooosss and ahhhhhs, even more quickly. Is this car still a loser, or just because it's a Merc and will sell well, we can some how miraculously forgive it and put it in the winners circle??????
At least someone who is truly informed
giving an education to those who would
like to expand their mental data base instead of indulging in personal likes and dislikes and uninformed comment.
Piech is an engineering and financial genius. The Phaeton engineering platform and factory capabilities in Dresden will provide the new genetic code for all vehicles on which Piech has influence. It provides VW with a "halo car" and enables him to upmarket all other VW products. He also gets to sell a ton of Phaetons as Bentley GT's and four door Flying Spurs to those who must wear their designer labels, not the inside, but the outside of their clothing. The Brits refer to the "New" Bentleys as "a Phaeton in a hand made suit". Pretty clever for the much maligned Dr. Piech.
By the way, if I recall, it was Piech who created the AWD revolution with the Quattro when at Audi in the 1980's.
Mine has served me well for over 150,000 miles, and still going strong.I have two
other Audis at my home in New Mexico, a 2004 A64.2 for my wife and a 2004 S4 for
myself. In all, I have had twelve Audis,
beginning with the Audi Quattro Sport
in 1983.
"American Idol" may have a huge audience, but that does not make a great and
memorable TV show. Popularity does not
equate to quality or greatness.
The only "losers", if there are any, are
those who fail to understand and
appreciate the qualities of the A8. After
all caviar too is an acquired taste.
My A8 W-12 has also been a model of reliablity and refinement.
And yes, caviar is an acquired taste. Just like purchasing an Audi, albeit it might be more tasteful.;)
And it has to be repeated. The A8 is NOT considered a top lux plate yet it is a popular pick to go head to head with the best of Europe. Even the wicked CR has it as a best pick, so does Consumer Guide and a ton of other publications, both here and abroad.
And you're right. When the "typical" luxury car buyer is ready for a purchase, hardly is the A8 at the top of the heap. Usually it's Merc, BMW, Lexus, even Cadillac. It's just one of those things.
I happen to like the fact that to see an A8 on the road is far and few between. However it does have it's gripes. The small dealer connection means longer travels for service, but that shouldn't be the sole reason to banish the car.
I agree with the assumption that something is missing in the A8 U.S. Audi has a habit of not spending any time or money to promote these cars, better focusing on the bread-n-butter A3/4. But that's Audi's upper management, not the A8 itself. As I've stated many times: To own one goes with pleasure.
So in other words it is missing a safety item that even a VW Beetle Cabrio has? Pretty awful for 65K, IMO. The SL550 (now arriving) erases any similarities the SC430 and SL500 had in straight-line performance and nothing about the SC430 feels or could make it drive like the Benz.
Very little effort was expended on the SL's interior. So you call the SC guady and tasteless. I call the SL a generally weak effort, not befitting it's $100k-encroaching price tag.
Right and more effort was put into the interior of the SC430 to make up for its lacking safety specification, performance and styling. With Lexus its the same thing, lots of beige plastic, wood and kill'em dead with sound systems and leather, but the car doesn't drive or look like anything. This is why I say the SC430 is the last choice in the segment for anyone that is thinking or wanting anything beyond the normal luxury sedan attributes.
The SC sold 17k units in 2003. Name me a premium convertible that sold that many?
This statement is very misleading because you do realize that the "2002" SC430 went on sale in April of 2001 and that Lexus is counting all of the 2002 model year sales, which is way more than 12 months, to arrive at this figure. Come on now did you really think you'd get away with that? I'm sure the CLK and SL sold more than that if we added April-Dec from the calendar year before the actual model year. So to "name" a premium convertible that could sell 17K units, any of them (well any Mercedes convertible) could if you're going to use nearly 2 years worth of sales to arrive at the 17K figure.
You seem awfly impressed with the queer styling of the CLK, which has gone from clear E-class derivitive to....queer. How about something appraching the impcat the original SC had? Will we see that from Mercedes? Or will we get an R350 instead?
I find this really interesting. You're calling the CLK's styling queer, but you're defending a the ladybug/upside down bathtub look of the SC430? Heck yeah I'd take a CLK500 (soon to be CLK550) Cabrio over a SC430 and as far as the original SC400 is concerned it is for 1) in the past 2) nothing from Lexus has looked as good since and 3) Mercedes blew it out of the water with the original CLK and 2000 CL, which is easily (still) a better looking car than any Lexus. Timeless for a car that came out in 1999! I won't even mention what the current SL does to Lexus' 2-door lineup as far as looks, scorches.....
The original SC400's impact was more because of what it offered, not because it was a stunning beauty.
You love to talk about sales, but the SC430 doesn't outsell either the CLK or SL. It is very easy to pick on another segment laggard like the XLR.
M
Exactly, he was using 2002 model year sales, not the 2002 calendar year. The 2002 SC430 went on sale in spring of 2001 giving it nearly 9 extra months of sales for "2002".
M
What does this have to do with Audi? Audi isn't run like Lexus (you'll like that comment). Audi struggles with an image problem and for its worth the A8 has sold much better since the 2004 model arrived.
Again, this is why I think it is downright careless to point to sales as the final determining factor on how good a car is. There are many things that go into who sells what and how many.
M
M
Lexus has conquered countries in 10 years, what has Audi done again?
Besides the U.S. market in terms of sales, what other countries would those be?
M
M
I think Audi just has a perception problem with being associated with VW for so long in this country. Then there are those who still believe in the unintended acceleration stuff and lastly Audi just doesn't have the infastructure here like MB and BMW. Audi has got to get more dealers in the right places, in other words on dealer's row with MB/BMW/Lexus/Cadillac because from what I read here and elsewhere the average Audi dealer seems to be more accomodating than the average MB or BMW dealer.
M
Len (ljflx) alluded to something missing in the A8... Yes, there is something missing... a DNA... something the NA market buyers can attach to the brand. Currently, nothing. It remains a pedestrian brand, unable to rise to the level that a HELM buyer would associate to a "gotta-have". Maybe the fact that VW remains mirred in a reliability slump, and a third-rate German brand behind MB and BMW in the NA market, is not helping Audi at all... Lexus had Toyota's reputation to buoy its name/brand, Audi had the baggage of VW.... Not something to build upon...
Finally, a comment about the term *loser*... IMO, there are no HELM car that can be described as a *loser*. Those who argue the SC430 v SL500 really are arguing out of turn. The SL is a roadster, the SC430 is a 2-door coupe version of the 4-door LS430, that is, a plush, luxury cruiser, with 2-doors. Nothing more than that. The SL is a true roadster, powerful, refined, performance-inclined and the top dog in its class. Like the SL, the SC430 is one of a few cars with the least amount of days spent on a dealer lot - about a 13-day average. That is a winner any way you define it.
And Designman, excellent piece on the VW/Porsche-MB saga... If I didn't look at the poster's name, I'd assume it was written by Len, who has a keen business view to everything. I am surprised you had an interest in the business side of these fine cars.... Great piece. Please do more of this...
Audi is however has gained a reputation for the best interiors in the business and they're gaining one for leading technology and edgy, crisp design. From what I'm reading here on Edmunds they're also gaining a good reputation at the dealership level too.
As far as the SL vs SC430 I have no problem with your description of the SC430, which is basically what I said years ago and more recently a few posts ago. It is the comparison of the SC to the SL that really doesn't make any sense to me. The SC430 is sorta like the ES in the way it competes in a segment of similarly priced cars while not having much of anything else in common with them. This it-must-be-a-winner because it sells theory totally disregards a whole host of other factors.
M
All in a package that comes in under $45k. In a world populated by overpriced and underperforming BMW 5 series (pushing $60k for 530Xi) and M-B E350's (@ $55-60k) this thing is an unbelievable steal.
The only car that even comes close is the Audi A6 but the "3.2" (actually it's a 3.1) engine is slow, slow, slow off the line and it's nav system is a joke. At least the interior is on a par with the Lexus.
Of course that's just my opinion.
:P
I think Audi is a good brand but it’s just curious why they are missing their piece of the pie. I think it all goes back to Piech who’s abilities are a tale of two cities. VW is a mess and Audi does not have the footprint over here that they should. They’ve got to get their act together as a business... bad, bad business. It’s like the kids selling lemonade from the garage. Some daddy needs to give them a clue.
Thanks to all for the compliments.
What's worse is that Audi - with all it's emphasis on AWD in its marketing strategy - completely missed the SUV boom. It makes you wonder how you can have an AWD strategy as your ace in the hole and then you completely miss an exploding vertical market that emphasizes your ace in the hole. As Designman pointed out somethiong is missing in the Audi braintrust.
"Every time I try to get out, they pull me back in!"
Re: the SC vs. the SL, part of the reason for the HUGE success of the SC is the SL-matching V8 within the Sc430 engine bay. Whether the Lexus built the SC to compete with the SL primarily, at $25k less is debatable. But the SL, for 3 years, would struggle to outrun the Lexus. I'm sure this was used in "walkarounds" often.
Re: the original SC, having been knocked-off several times (Mazda MX-6 and Buick Riviera the most blatant), and being called, at $45k, "Possibly the best car on the planet!" by C&D, the 1992-99 SC resume wants for nothing. It had to be re-engineered to bring the latest safety equipment cars started to bear in '95+, and Lexus had other plans.
As Mercedes CLK has ALWAYS shown, matching style with the original SC was futile, so just slap two doors on an E, and call it a day!
Considering Mercedes had several years to build an SC competitor, the 1999 CLK430 was another weak effort, hoplessly derivitive of the E-Class sedan, as was it's forebearer. I was truly disappointed! The 2002 (?) CLK was less derivitive, but no more attractive. Better interior, doh.
Since you brought up the CL (Comparing it to cars costing half as much smacks of desperation, Merc. You know better!), if Lexus built cars that cost as much as S550, SL550, or CL55, you wouldn't be so apt to hide in an Ivory tower.
Mercedes better have an anwser for the 600h! That could be 10-12k sales a year, by itself. Those aren't gonna come from Cadillac, or BMW, Merc. :shades:
What ya gonna do? What ya gonna do when they come for you?
DrFill
Tough act to follow, especially 10 minutes later!
Be thur!
The End is near! :surprise:
DrFill