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High End Luxury Cars

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  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    Oac, it's nice to see you back. Yes, I did trade the LS430 but I still have the LS400 so it's a mixed household. My son had the 1992 LS completely redone, every little mechanical and cosmetic flaw was fixed. It looks amazing now.

    Here are a few pictures:
    http://hometown.aol.com/sv7887/LS_ExteriorS.jpg
    http://hometown.aol.com/sv7887/LS_Side1.jpg
    http://hometown.aol.com/sv7887/LS_interior.jpg

    The way I see it, I get the best of both worlds, so I'm not complaining. My wife is highly interested in the S430 but this time I decided to put "The Club" on the Benz to stop her from stealing it. Needless to say she wasn't very happy with me.

    You know this is the first time I've been able to compare a Lexus vs a Mercedes at length. I've spent quite a few evenings looking at both cars and seeing whether some of the things said here are true.

    Here's what I've found: The Benz is definitely more competent at high speeds. It's more nimble and doesn't get pushed easily in crosswinds.

    It's also loaded with every safety feature possible. I'm not saying the LS is unsafe, it's just that MB has thought of every little thing.

    The Nanotech Paint is great, I don't know why Lexus doesn't put this on their cars. It's also nice to play DVD Audio disks upfront. The Multifunction Display has those Lexus CBest settings integrated so you can change them without going to the dealer.

    Now some of the bad: The Comand system isn't very user friendly. Their phone system is quite outdated. The Cupholders are really bizzare. Way too complex. What is funny though is that the ashtray design is one of the best I've seen. The glovebox is tiny, and there isn't that much room for storage. Reliability is a concern. I have a hard time believing this car will be trouble free for >3 yrs.

    The Lexus has a different philosophy. Everything about this car exudes Quality. All the controls feel like they'll last forever. They've thought of every little convenience feature possible.

    This car is still amazingly quiet, quieter than the Benz, and even my LS430. You can turn on the stereo get out of the car, and you will not hear anything. Even 14 yrs later everything works perfectly. There is little worry that this car Won't start. The stereo still sounds excellent.

    The car is very comfortable. The Benz is slightly better because of the long wheelbase. I honestly can't tell any difference between the two stereos.

    Styling is a real subjective thing. They both look great. Both interiors show a lot of thought. The Benz does have nice mouldings that protect the body from shopping carts. It's something I wish Lexus would do.

    Under the hood, I've noted that the Mercedes was built to be worked on. Changing tailight bulbs is a simple chore. It's a 30 minute one on the Lexus. The S430 uses synthetic oil, and you can check the oil without leaving the car. Mercedes also provides hard points to tow the car with. They've definitely thought of the mechanic on this car.

    The Lexus isn't as mechanic friendly, but you also know it doesn't require much to begin with. The 1992 has only recently required substantial expenditure. How much of it was "necessary" is a judgement call. We're pretty finicky so that's a big part of it.

    In conclusion, it's Really hard for me to pick a winner. It is clear to me that Lexus and Mercedes have Different Core Competencies. If it's about convenience, reliability, and comfort it's on a Lexus. If it's about Safety, Perfomance, and Style it's on a Mercedes.

    If I've learned anything from having both a Mercedes and Lexus it's this:

    Both are great cars period. There is no "One" top car.

    We're all privileged to own cars like these. Let's enjoy them and stop bickering over which one is best!!!

    -
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The answer to that is that the War was much harder on Auto Union than it was on Benz. In 1938, AU had 25% of the German car market, and their "Dampf Kraft Wagen" motorcycle brand had a third of the motorcycle market. Then Germany lost the war, and the Soviets eliminated their production facilities. Most of the top AU guys moved to Ingolstadt, and they basically made DKW motorcycles until they were bought out by Daimler-Benz, and then later sold to VW because they werent profitable.

    Audi's first real car since pre-war Germany was the 1980 Quattro. Thats why they dont have the kind of heritage that Mercedes does.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Interesting idea.
    The drawback is that you could end up devaluing Porsche.

    Also, how do you distinguish Audi from VW?
    Their products are too close as it is.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok, deal. Sorry I just couldn't let that comparo go, any other models I can see, but not those.

    I doubt if you'll let me "enjoy" NYIAS for long after that LS600h is shown...lol!!!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I forgot about who got what at the end of the war. I know you weren't around to see all of that, but thanks for setting me straight...lol. :D

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I used to work in the liquor industry a long time ago.

    drinking or marketing? ;)

    So it is with diesel - it'll just never get started here and it's so hard to invest in a technology that has been rejected. Hybrids though are a natural and seamless extension of gas.

    I agree with this, but to a lesser point. You use the word never regarding the diesels, and when I consider that such a large number of vehicles in Europe are diesels, I find myself going back to basics here. With more expensive fuel costs, diesels represented the long-standing ONLY alternative. Obviously there were no hybrids all those years.

    So, let's cross the Atlantic and come back to the good 'ol USA, and recognize that for the most part during our history, fuel has been cheap enough to go through the years of muscle cars and giant SUV's. But now, there is change in the wind, and with the new generation of diesels that will be offered over the next years, I think we will see diesels slowly take a foothold for the first time in our history that could be considered significant.

    Yes, I agree with you about the logical extension of hybrid technology and it will be marketed successfully. But I also now am witnessing an interesting polarization of the hybrid. In other words, I think the hybrid will do very well at the economical end of the spectrum, where it actually financially pays for itself in real monetary terms, such as the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid, and the upcoming Honda Fit . . . AND hybrid technology will probably do well in the upper end, such as with the upcoming Lexus LS600h. This polarization that I am predicting will leave the middle ground open for more efficient ICE engines and DIESELS, IMO. Additionally, diesels can gain ground in the economical end of the spectrum, alongside the hybrids, AND the upper end of the spectrum, in the HELMS. I have a firm belief, especially when I consider some of the passionate posts on this and the LPS forums, that MANY folks would just LOVE to have a terrific car with a terrific diesel as its powerplant.

    One hour ago, I heard on the news that gasoline will rise at least 25 cents per gallon this summer. This will flirt with the $3 + per gallon area again . . . and that seems to be the trigger point for folks to start complaining and looking for alternatives. And it will get worse, given the international political and business structure at this point in time. (The China factor, the Iran factor, etc.)

    Anyway, I am not as pessimistic about diesel's potential in the marketplace as you seem to be. I am more optimistic and think that both hybrids and diesels will make progress. It will be interesting indeed.

    :)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It will be very interesting to see how the Camry hybrid does in terms of sales, as that car is the epitome of the "middle ground" mainstream hybrid sedan. Americans are of course in love with the Camry, but will they love the hybrid?

    Toyota was smart to pair up HSD with the 4-cyl Camry. I'm sure they watched the Accord Hybrid's bomb in the market very closely. Nobody wants to pay $33K+ for an Accord. The Escape and the Highlander hybrid are also not as popular as they once were. Are hybrids a fad?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    With gas at $3 a gallon this summer, and a Camry getting 40MPG, do you think it'll be a tough sell? For about the cost of a V6 Camry? They will sell everyone they build this year (46k).

    Timing is everything?

    We bow to your wisdom, Mighty 'Yota! ;)

    DrFill
  • psychdocpsychdoc Member Posts: 147
    It's small, cramped, underpowered and entirely uninspiring. It doesn't have anywhere near as many bells and whistles as the new ES and is not as sprty as the IS.

    Now add to this losing formula that it's ugly as sin and looks like a hatchback and what do you have?

    "L-O-S-E-R"

    Lexus should just admit it took a shot and missed.They missed miserably and they should go back to the drawing boards with this disaster.

    This car is a serious mistake.

    :sick:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Talk about beating a dead horse! :mad:

    Let it go, just let it go.

    DrFill
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    we really should try to keep our, um, focus on the high end cars. ;)
  • psychdocpsychdoc Member Posts: 147
    The GS has been savaged around here before?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yes it will be interesting, because up until now, there is no "middle ground" winner out there. The Lexus LS600h, which debuts tomorrow, will be the ultimate hybrid, at the top end of the spectrum and should do very well. The economical end of the spectrum is already a confirmed success. The middle ground, though, is large and the Camry will be towards the bottom of it. In fact, possibly low enough to be swept into the top of the lower end category as time goes, but we'll see.

    A diesel in the S class will be something to watch closely. Will Lexus enter into that arena? Even Jaguar has a wonderful diesel in their Euro XJ, and will it be available here eventually? Audi can do wonders with a diesel and what about BMW?

    You asked if hybrids are a fad, and I think that with Toyota's and Honda's huge committment to them, the answer is no . . . at least for a while in history. I believe that a different longer term solution will come, but progress comes in steps and I believe that the hybrid is a positive step along the way.

    Personally, I like the technology of hybrid vehicles, but I am attracted to the modern diesel. The last one I tried was in the E-class recently and I was pleasantly surprised with its performance. In consideration of the past and future, diesels will most likely have a longer historical life span than hybrids ever will . . . unless they get married, and we have the hybrid diesel as the next step until hydrogen finally makes its way. Yikes, maybe even hybrid bio-diesel before hydrogen. Who knows?

    A step at a time,

    TagMan
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    unless they get married, and we have the hybrid diesel as the next step until hydrogen finally makes its way

    Imagine that, buy a luxury car that would be a blast to drive and fueling up only 12 times or less a year... :D
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Since the World Premiere is tomorrow, timing is everything.

    This is not just another LS! This car is LS squared!

    So cool, it needs it's own, dedicated, fan club!

    I'm ready to party like it's 1989! :shades:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    No doubt the LS600h will be an ultimate car of sorts, but come on, Doc, prescribe yourself a valium . . . lest we find you strapped in to that rear seat massager screaming " pleeeeeease don't take me away!"

    ;)

    Actually your irrational exuberance is fun, but do you think it's contagious, and we'll all be bowing down to the LS 600h? Think again.

    :D

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Irrational? What's up with that?

    You ain't right.

    Starting tomorrow, a Yellow Brick Road runs down 11th Avenue, and doesn't end until we meet the Wonderful Wizard of Oz!

    You seem to be applying for the part of the Scarecrow! :P

    I'll be Dorothy. A very studly Dorothy!

    Now what could be irrational about that? :confuse:

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Why shouldn't the American public not like the Camry hybrid?
    Why after only around 100,000 miles of fill-ups. they will get their $2965 premium back.
    Not to mention the 10.6 cubic feet of trunk space for the hybrid vs the 12.4 cubic feet for the regular Camry.
    I will not be joining the hybrid bandwagon anytime soon and hope that BMW steers clear of this ridiculousness.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    What might be considered irrational is the continuing off-topic comments ... :shades:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Is a Camry a HELM? :sick:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Depends on how you define "is". Sorry, couldn't help myself!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "The ES continues to be a great value, and it makes the Zephyr and Lucerne look like dinosaurs......."

    Let's just face it. In no way are the new millenium middle-agers going to take the Lucy or Zephyr over the ES. With everyone knowing Lexus'incredible quality and near stratispheric resale values, it's a sure winner in it's category. The Lincoln Zephyr @ $34k; the coffee must've been mighty cold when they came up with those figures. The Hyundai Azera seems more of a value than the Zephyr, indeed it is, IMO.

    But I think the Lucerne is a great DOMESTIC attempt. The car is the key in turning back to Buick's once unmatched quality of the 40's and 50's. The car is probably the best thing to come from them in 2 decades. The quality is tops among domestics(Toyota Avalon and DCX's LX cars notwithstanding). But in typical GM fashion, they fulfilled the needs in one department but completely dropped the ball in another, most notably chassis and suspension tuning.

    The Lucerne, IMO, goes up against the Avalon and Chrysler's LX-platformed car's, not the ES. It's good but not great.

    However in typical GM fashion, if they don't do anything else right, they get the powertrains done very well. The Lucerne is available with N/S V-8 power, first for a Buick since the end of the gigantic 1996 Roadmaster(dad's favorite). It does move this car with authority, altho the Avalon is still quicker.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Regardless of the definition of "is" (which in the context given there is no reason to question), none of the vehicles you mention can be considered High End Luxury Marques.

    Let's get back to the subject, please.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interestingly, Edmunds (for reasons known only to them) gave the Zephyr a smashing review, and just recently they basically raked the Lucerne over the coals. I dont like either car, but I cant understand why they raved about a gussied up Fusion with an $8K price hike, and then went on to bash a value priced Deville.

    For a V8 to be impressive these days, I would say that 300hp is the absolute bare minimum requirement. Considering the staggering amount of power available on the 300C, showing up with yesterday's Northstar and the proverbial stone age GM 4-speed is just not competitive. As you said, its slower than the Avalon, and has the added bonus of being a gas hog.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Now doc, or should I say Dorothy . . . the scarecrow had no brain and would be continually posting about the Camry, and Pat would have put a stop to that, but I was too busy posting about the LS600h. So, therefore, Pat has a fair amount of control, and is obviously the Wizard of OZ or the Wicked Witch. I'll let you decide since you are the one following the yellow brick road.

    I recommended valium the first time, but now maybe, something a little stronger . . . ;)

    As you might recall from a recent post of mine, I mentioned that the LS600h will go down in history as one of the most technologically sophisticated production vehicles ever built . . . and I don't mind saying it again, as long as it doesn't send you too far into outer space.

    :)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I totally agree, pdoc.
    Unlike you, however I cannot say much in a positive way about the other two Lexi you mentioned.
    I find them both rather somnolent.
    I am looking forward to driving the new LS and hope I notice a bit of improvement in
    "agility."
    Some of us require more than vibrating seats.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Join me in the new LS600h forum tomorrow. We'll soon find out how right we are! ;)

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "I used to work in the liquor industry a long time ago.

    drinking or marketing?"

    Finance and cost accounting - it was my infancy in business.

    Great post - we disagree to a degree but in general are on the same track - on this and many things. I like your business views very much. Would have loved to have crossed your path in the real business world.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Thou LEXUSGUY to say that for a V-8 to be impressive these days, it needs to have 300-hp as "bare minimum" requirements??

    Well gee-golly. The LS430 is rated at "only" 278-hp this year with the new SAE standards in place, but it's the trick 6-speed tranny that scoots this car along in relative swiftness(impressive at under 6 seconds and with this much tonnage). I can never guess why Lexus/Toyota among a few other makers put their flagship cars/SUV's with less hp than lesser models. Exp: the GS430(300hp) and the IS350(306 interestingly) makes more power than the LS does. This is an issue that I hope Lexus will cure with the encroachment of the new LS, for sure with the LS600h.

    On another note(slightly off subject, I get it HOST), if I were to buy the either of two(never would I), no guissed-up Fusion would get my money over a Monday's discount DTS. And yes, the 3.5L Toyota/Lexus V-6 has some of the best V-6 fuel economy ratings in biz, with the Avalon @ 20/30, indeed impressive for that size of car and that much power on tap.

    P.S.- The Northstar engine yestertech? Now there's a first for me. Even in today's blossom of engine technology the Northtstar is sitll more than competitive, especially the new S/C v-Series engines. Thanks to Honda almost 2 decades ago, for ANY engine to be considered even mildly competitive, it has to have VVT on both the intake and exhaust sides, and the N/S does incorporate them, albeit it is still a older motor than the newer foreign designs
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    You know, it continually amazes me that the blue collar elite (self employed types, usually) positively lust over diesel powered pickups. They even pay a up to 6K (post W2 income) premium to pull into the coffee shop with that big lump of cast iron just rattling away. Amazing when you consider that these F250s and Ram 2500s usually ride around absolutely empty except for the guy in the baseball cap behind the wheel who secretly imagines he is a Class 8 line haul trucker who has been "eight days on the road."

    Other groups, certainly less identifiable, I think would buy a more more modestly priced diesel in their small SUV (e.g., Jeep Liberty), large SUV (I think Ford could sell a ton of power strokes in the Expediton), or even commuting vehicle.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Hi Sam:

    Really appreciate your post. That LS still looked good after 14 years. Remarkable ! And IMO, you got one of the last really beautiful S class styles. No matter how many times I see the new S (about 6-times now), it has not grown on me.... I think the look is a step back for MB, but I stand corrected by those who find it otherwise. I wish you many years of enjoyment of the new S, and may it serve you longer than your old LS.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    As you might recall from a recent post of mine, I mentioned that the LS600h will go down in history as one of the most technologically sophisticated production vehicles ever built . . . and I don't mind saying it again, as long as it doesn't send you too far into outer space.

    Tagman, despite our difference of opinion on Lexus v German brands, you do write pretty good and slowly becoming a favorite on this board. Keep it up... but don't be too hard or DrFill, he is a jolly good fellow and a darn fine poster as well. A legend, really here on Edmunds...

    Now to the LS600H. You have it nailed that it will be a technological marvel - coupling a gas-electric motor, with an AWD system, in a LWB trim, and doing a 5s or less 0-60 ! Seems to be a good entry for an upmarket move by Lexus. BTW, the GS450H has equally been described as a technological marvel. Its 51/49 weight distribution, its slimer and more space efficient battery system, its dynamic performance, near silent ride, exceptional speed (5.2s 0-60), great ride and handling (better than the GS430), all make the LS600H a much anticipated car.

    Its tomorrow, and we'll know soon enough. I speculate a 440/450 spread on HP/TQ for the LS600H. The LS460 already has 380 ponies... Plenty for a mere 4.6L motor... But there is rumor that the LS600H may spot the new 5L V8 motor coupled to the electric battery. We'll see soon enough...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Great post - we disagree to a degree but in general are on the same track - on this and many things. I like your business views very much. Would have loved to have crossed your path in the real business world.

    And conquer the world? Hail WalMart!

    Seriously . . . nice compliment. Genuine thank you. :)

    So . . . since the debut is upon us, when do the rags get the seat of their pants in the LS600h?

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    :blush:

    You are too kind! Thank you very much!

    You cut an impressive key stroke yourself, sir. As does Tag. I had too much time on my hands today, so I've been a little fiestier than usual, started a few more fires than necessary.

    BlkHemi

    The alacrity of the LS is due more to lack of weight (the OTHER way to create a faster car), as the LS generally weighs right around 4000-4100 lbs., while the Germans and their high-felutin (sic) acronyms carry 2-300 extra lbs.

    The GS ran 5.7 in C&D, the same time it pulled in the previous generation. I've seen the LS at 5.9-6.1, consistently. The GS handles well for a Lexus, but now the IS definitely is much more agile, if still more Mercedes than BMW in feel.

    When the GS upgrades in the fall, hopefully a sharper edge can be baked in.

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I guess even I'm excited to see this new LS600h. Will it really have AWD and the LS460 doesn't?

    I see on the other board you and others are saying 440-470hp, I wouldn't be surprised to see a full 500hp with his car considering the cooking LS460 will have 380hp.

    Even with the new G35, E-Class, and LS600h I'm ready for the auto show season to be over at this point. I got enough of it at Detroit and Chicago, but wait there will be a 2nd L.A. auto show in November. Gee Whiz.

    I know well all don't think much of Autolies, but they have some good pics of the new Altima and G35 which more or less alike and more or less like facelifts of the current vehicles than all new designs, IMO.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    My guess is 440-450hp, enough to edge out the 760Li, but not the twin-turbo S600.

    Unless, of course, the 5-liter rumor turns out to be correct.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    press release

    5-liter, "more than 320kW" (320kW=429hp)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well if those specs hold up then they'll be going after the 750 and S550, not the 760 and S600. Should be some good reading all over the net in a few hours!!!

    What I find even more interesting is that they have a 5L V8 to use somewhere. Toyota isn't going to build a 5L V8 for just one car. I suspect this new 5L will be used in that often talked about IS500 and LF-A sports car.

    M
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    It will need to be substantially above the 460 in power to support the rather huge jump in curb weight.

    50HP isn't enough. Unless you want a slower car than the 460. :(

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Keeping it here is just fine. You Lexicans need other points of view to keep you sober. You know, when you guys sit at the same table and start drinking that Kool-Aid I start to get a little worried about ya.

    ;-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I forgot to tune in until about 9:40, so only caught the last few minutes. Did they say anything of interest that isn't in the Australian press release?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Much more detailed than the Australian release, and you can click on the picture to access a picture gallery

    press release

    direct link to picture gallery
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    here
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The press release stated AWD as the drivetrain, yet it is almost ignored throughout, i.e., not hyped as the first LS with AWD, but first XM-factory install hyped ! Strange... Overall, the press release is scant on information... typical Toyota/Lexus. No TQ number was even speculated, which means they are still working out the final HP/TQ numbers. I suspect the HP would probably be substantially more than 430. Like DrFill said, a 50HP bump from the LS460 --> LS600h wouldn't cut it, with the added weight from the battery and AWD. A 2-stage CVT tranny is very nice, and of course finally an LS for all-terrain. How AWD and VDIM will work together should be interesting, cos there is no Lexus with such a combo setup.

    I must say I was NOT overwhelmed with the info in the press release. Maybe in time as more info trickles out of Lexus I'll get real excited. For now, I'll adopt a wait-n-see attitude with this car. Of course, my interest is in the SWB LS460. 380HP is plenty for me... My current 278HP LS400 has plenty of pep, and passing power.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    380hp 370lb-ft Approximate. They’re just not giving the details of the engine vs electric motor. The Rx400h spec sheet just lists total system power and no torque, no RPM. That’s as vague as it gets. Is it any different in the catalog? Just asking. It’s hard to parse hybrid power and compare it with a lone engine anyway. It seems there is no convention yet for presenting hybrid performance data.

    And no weight spec. I hate that. I'm guessing it will be at least 4700 lbs. I wouldn't be counting on a 5-sec 0-60.

    How AWD and VDIM will work together should be interesting, cos there is no Lexus with such a combo setup.

    Doesn’t the Rx400h have AWD and VDIM?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Merc,

    Could be different tweaked power for different countries. As well there's been this rumored lux sedan that comes in above all of the LS cars that will be even more powerful than this one in the $110-130K range. If the latter is true you have to ask the question (to all lux brands for that matter) of how much is too much.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Initially, I think the car is quite attractive. The long wheelbase adds a degree of "elegance" I've personally not ever seen in a Lexus. The black looks terrific, but I imagine other colors will work well.

    I do not like the way the rear center "cocktail tray" is directly over many of the multi media controls . . . a little spillage might do a lot more damage than in other configurations, and I definately frown upon the pull down monitor, as it is more common in mainstream suv's. Most upper end installations use individual headrest monitors. I'll hope that by the time the vehicle is released, there will be individual color monitors in the back of the front headrests, but that may just be wishful thinking.

    There are no angles from the photos that I find disturbing. As much as I absolutely love the new Mercedes S-Class, the rear trunk bugs me (just a little, though) at a 45-degree angle from the rear. Other angles are wonderful, though.

    I will withhold too much comment on the powertrain, as I am not yet clear on all the vitals, but the AWD is a pleasant surprise.

    To me, this vehicle is a testimony to the potential level of technological achievement that is possible in one single production car. Lexus is to be congratulated for putting forth so much effort into this incredible vehicle and, IMO, raising the bar and challenging the entire industry. This LS600hL will be an ultimate HELM, and anyone that ends up with one should drive it proudly, IMO.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Indeed the 278hp LS430 is no longer competitive, which is why its being replaced with the LS460. For whatever reason, ever since the GS400 was released in '98, its had more horses than the LS400\430.

    I think you misunderstood the point of my post about the Northstar in the Lucerne. The engine is indeed very capable, but in crippled Buick form, and with just 4-cogs to work with and two tons of car to move (some 400lbs. more than the Avalon) its just not good enough. Ultimately another average GM product.
  • benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    This LS600hL will be an ultimate HELM
    Without exception??
    image
  • benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    image
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