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Comments
I definately shop MB and BMW against each other. BMW always wins for involvement, they are the only ones big into the manual trans market still. My recent experiences with poor quality led me to choose MB this last time. Oh, it was faster too!
I also hope everyone remembers that AMG was acquired by MB and not built internally. I doubt it is very profitable because very few custom products,in any industry are. Syndicated products are always where the profits are made. If Lexus goes the tuned route it will be as a loss leader to draw in a younger crowd.
I just don't think a person that likes a car like the LS430 will ever see the point of a RS6, M5, E55 etc....again nothing wrong with a Lexus, but the excitement is sorely missing.
ljflx,
Your numbers about AMG's production and employees *sounds* about right, from what I last read on AMG myself. However AMG may have just as well been in-house all along, the two guys that started AMG are former MB engineers. Complete MB ownership of AMG isn't complete until 2007. Mercedes is now working with Brabus (in secret). If you think AMG's cars are over the top check out some of Brabus' work.
M
Anyone pick-up volume of 7-series sales in February?
I also think that people who like the LS/LX versions from Lexus can and do see the point of performace cars. Many of those owners own an M5, AMG or other perfomance auto. Lexus has won over lots of these owners because of their luxury/value.
M
I don't know where the 250K base comes from or why it would matter especially with leases as popluar as they are. When the LS first appeared (they were termed Near luxury) a lot of previous MBZ & BMW owners started buying them, one of the reasons they would give at the time was "We saved 30K". This was not a reference to their ability to afford the additional 30K, but that they got everything they wanted/required in the LS and they didn't spend the additional 30K, on the S class.
You see I can be objective.
I've driven the SC430 and it rides beautifully. I'd love to see how the SL rides. If I get a chance to I'll let you know.
BTW - I've always seen Lexus as standalone dealerships but my business trips are always big city trips. Have you ever seen them in combination with other makes anywhere?
I had an excellent suggestion for a better name for this discussion that could encompass any number of high end vehicles, so I've gone ahead and renamed this one.
Thanks - have fun!
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
M
Do you really believe that about MB, Audi and BMW? Either I am much too cynical or you are much too naive.
Got my MT in the mail today and I briefly looked at the article of MB AMG vs. BMW M. In each case MT opts for the BMW and I must say in each case I'd take the MB. But I do think both should put a halt to the tuned trucks before people start killing themselves in those things. I saw an X-5 lose control on a curve in the rain last week and take out a guard rail. Luckily the only things damaged were the guard rail and the truck. The latter looked like its road days were over.
I never understood why BMW touted their X5's handling around an autocross track. If you wanted something that handled like a car then why don't you buy a car instead. Plus, a 5-series wagon has more cargo room inside.
Go Hoosiers!!
bernard1,
Yep I have, but again...see what I said above. Porsche's GT2 is not for profits primarily it's to prove superiority on the track....while making a profit. The regular 911' s generate the real revenue. What you just stated about them not making a car unless it's profitable is what I stated several posts ago.
Guys, I'm not saying that profits aren't important, because they are. However the European companys are just as driven by making a hell of a car too. The Japanese tend to limit themselves to mainstream products with profits/sales being the #1 reason for their being.
ljflx,
Well who knows on that one. Some say Mercedes did take Lexus seriously in the beginning some say they didn't. I do know that Mercedes was in better shape than either BMW (no V8's at all) or Jaguar at the time to deal with Lexus. Lexus also aimed a lot higher than Acura did too. The Acura Legend of 1986 got creamed by the also new 300E at the time, so Acura didn't really aspire to be at the same level as Mercedes-Benz. They didn't truly have a real "luxury" car until the second generation Legend came in 1991. The first generation legend was barely a step up from a Maxima at the time. Hardly at the level of the first LS400.
M
Acura did the exact same thing to the established luxury marques that lexus did. When the legend came out in 1986, it was just as good as the 300E for almost half the price. Do you guys realize that a late '80s, early '90s 300E was going close to 50K when new? That's amazing! BTW, if you think the '86 legend was anything like a '86 Maxima, I want you to go back and take a look at some Maxima pictures. Also, Acura had the best dealers and customer service at the time.
You're right about the 300E, the 1993 model was $49,900, with far less equipment than today's $49,115 E320. That is amazing. I was just thinking, the 1990 500SL debuted at $83,500 and the 2003 SL500 is only $86,665.
M
Just think what you are getting now in comparison to in 1990. I wonder what that 61K 400E would cost adjusting for inflation.
http://forums.mbnz.org/forums/r170/vthread.asp?messid=57795
Senthil
No, the X5 is not supposed to be an "off road" Vehicle. The X5 was made to generate additional profits. BMW offers an SAV, emphasis on sport, AWD for light snow, and better traction. It does out handle (on road) the other SUV's and is more fun to drive. It is short on off road abilities and space so we don't expect it to compete with our LX.
Porsche admits the Cayenne is to do the same and keep them independent. In fact the first year's production of the Cayenne will be 1/3 of their total auto production for the year. With plans to expand to 50% of their total auto production within 2 yrs.
merc1 - Porsche has decided that they will produce their new super car. But that decision wasn't made until they received X amount of committed orders to insure they made money. Porsche didn't hide this fact, they said up front, no orders no car. Don't get me wrong, I love the cars that are perfomance based, but if there were no profits to be had, those perfomance cars would not be made in todays market even if it does bring braging rights. In the past, it was about the cars but most of those makers are out of business or have sold out to larger firms like GM, Fiat and Ford.
BMW doesn't sell many M5's but they have sold every one they can produce and the profit margin on the M5 is more than that of a 530i or 540i.
There is no doubt that MB in the late 80s and early 90s had HUGE profit margins on their cars. For 1994, MB reduced the pricing for their E-Class by 10K, and the cars were essentially the same.
You're right, the X5 is not an off-road vehicle, but essentially an any-road vehicle. I still don't understand the point of the X5 other than to generate profits. The Cayenne is going to totally tarnish Porsche's image, plus will be a huge failure once the hype dies down. Serves them right if you ask me.
I'm looking forward to a new Audi S8. I will probably not buy another S class. I didn't have any problems with my previous ones but the news do not seem to offer that vault like substance. If Audi produces a technology leading S8 with a new budy style and maintain the AWD, I'll put it my garage instead of that 745il.
I don't know if Lexus got BMW's attention when it comes to pricing. BMW is selling perfomance which they have no problems telling the world that Lexus can't match them. The 740 is BMW's answer to the S, and they maintained about the same distance in price below the S with the 740 as they did with the 735. Not to mention they stayed about the same $$ above Lexus. In fact in 1993 the LS was still considered "near luxury" and were not an honest threat to MB or BMW. The LS was bearly 3 yrs old.
In the service area, Lexus made them both take notice. Both MB and BMW have improved and offers full maintenance warranties where Lexus doesn't anymore.
Lexus has done a great job I just wish they would work on a fresh idea for the exterior of the LS.
While our Lexus is very luxurious it just doesn't excite me like our European cars.
In the bull market of the 90's many people would have been able to afford $100k S-500's. MB had to do something with price, not so much because it was getting too high but because of the big economic difference it had to cars that were winning such high reliability scores and renewing virtually every customer on a new car purchase. If Lexus isn't there MB does not cut prices. The price/value today vs. 1990 is all due to competition. Does anyone really think otherwise?
bernard: BMW's didn't have the same pricing problem as MB did when the Japanese duo came out. A BMW 525i was still reasonably priced compared to it's eqivalent MB. The 5-series was priced similar to the smaller and less powerful 190E 2.6. Lexus and Infiniti did have an impact on the product, V8s became the norm for the 5 and 7 series not long after lexus entered the picture. Don't know if that was directly because of Lexus or not, but it does seem like a interesting coincidence.
To all: Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
M
bobbyknight,
Yep the 400E was hugely expensive, the 500E (probably my favorite 4-door Benz of all time) was $80K at the time. The 400E was just a stopgap effort to compete with the LS400 of the time. The W124 chassis was an expensive one, and you could tell....even GM admitted that is was the most solid car built during it's day. These cars are still reguarded by many Benz fans as the best "E" Mercedes ever made. I can't take a definite stance on that opinion, though I think the current W210 E is not as well made structurally or in some of the cabin materials.
Yes Lexus did force the value issue, MB lowered prices in 1994 for the first time in over 100+ years of carmaking. Monumental change indeed. BMW has had performance as their isolation from Lexus, many still don't cross shop the two for this very reason. Mercedes' cars philosphy wise sit in the middle of the two, the most difficult place to be.
M
It wasn't so much that BMW chose their isolation from lexus in that Lexus chose MB as their benchmark.
I might have to agree with you on the margins of the M5 compared to a loaded 540i, that 5 liter is full of expensive technology but I'm sure that engine doesn't cost BMW 10K more to produce.
True about Lexus and their benchmark target, that's another way of putting it. But you have to admit that BMW's performance angle has spared them direct comparisions with Lexus until the GS400 came along.
Not really sure about the M5 compared to the other 5-series cars. I suspect that type of info isn't available on the web anywhere.
M
I think you may have missed my point about the GT. Sure orders= cars, but rarely has a car company stated that they would not build a car unless they had confirmed orders to insure a profit. The Cayenne, Porsche's new love was designed, engineered and ready to be built before the first order was taken. Most manufactures do the same. I'm just pointing out that while the Europeans believe in perfomance based auto's, profit are now the prime motavator, having the fastest car, etc. etc, is icing on the cake.
Actually a fully loaded 540i 6 sp is 12K and change less than a fully loaded M5 and when you actually purchase it, the difference is even more as you can get reasonable discounts on the 540i. Additionally there is not 12K difference in price on the engine. Something else to consider, very few people buy a fully loaded 540 simply because they don't want some of the extras. Those extras bring profit, the M5 comes with most everything standard, so there is a little extra built in.
You are correct about BMW not having to deal head to head with Lexus until the GS400 came along . Can't speak of the pricing of the 525 vs 190 as I've never owned or even price one of those. Lexus may have had some influence on the V8's at BMW, I don't know, but I know that the 7 series came out as their MB fighter but was deemed under powered.
For now, I will attempt to patiently wait for Audi's new S8 and hopefully will not be disappointed when it's released.
What do you guys think of BMW's leap in technology and how Lexus, Audi, MB will follow up?
In my world, that's plenty fast. If you want speed but don't want to drop $70-80k on a car, buy a Corvette. That's why they make them. For people who want Porsche performance without paying for it.
S8 is pretty sweet!
Well I guess we'll never know about the profit margins on the 5-Series BMW models, but It really doesn't matter what the buyer gets the car for, the only money BMW sees is the money the dealer pays to get the car. I still think the M5's engine eats up more profit on the M5 than the 525i's does. But you/me/we don't have any proof anyway, but it would interesting to find out.
On the Porsche Carrera GT. Cars are shown to the public to gauge reaction all the time and companys often base their production plans on who many orders or inquirys they get on a car, so I don't know what you mean there. Ford just did the same thing with the GT40.
I'm impressed with BMW and Mercedes' push for technology. The only thing really "wrong" with the new 7-Series is the styling. BMW really is rethinking engine and suspension design, I like that. Mercedes has been all about brakes and suspensions lately, I waiting to see their next generation of direct injection, 4-valve gas engines, due in 2004, I think. I think idrive may be a little ahead of it's time, hopefully they won't make it standard on the next 5-Series. Mercedes is turning over development of the next Comand system to Nokia. Should be interesting, though I've never had a Nokia phone (Sanyo) to know how they think. BMW hit MB with pricing like Lexus did, just one year though....the 525i was priced at $34,900, that same as the 190E 2.6.
M
S8 is pretty sweet!
Merc1 - I'm not too impressed with the 7's styling either but as most thing do, I believe it grows on us. The new 5's will have the basic same style as the 7, don't know about the Idrive but I think BMW is pushing for a standard. Remember with the E-class fist came out with oval headlights? For MB that was a major departure and created a stir. After awhile most people loved it and the E is the most successful selling car in it's class ever. Admittedly I'm still waiting for the latest S class to grow on me to replace my previous generation, but it hasn't yet. Which is why I've move to BMW and now thinking of giving Audi a shot.
On that note, there is a silver Audi TT 225quattro (I can tell by the dual tailpipes) with 19 or 20 inch BBS wheels driving around campus, and it was probably the most beautiful car I have ever seen
M
Is this truth or did the elf tell me this in a dream last night?
My impressions on styling alone? I am wildly ambivalent about this car. The interior is orders of magnitude better looking than the prior 7, which (unlike the elegant exterior) had become hopelessly dated. I really like the apparent (deceptive?) simplicity of the design. The cost paid for that (idrive) may well be too high, but the look is an enormous improvement. Much nicer, IMHO, than the S or the A8, and on par with the Lexus, although in an entirely different, more extroverted style.
Outside, the side aspect is graceful and satisfying, if a bit derivative of the 6, the passat, and a handful of other german sedans. Nothing new or breathtaking, but certainly no turn off. (I still don't know what they were thinking with the crease running through the doors, though) The front of the car -- even with the busy grill/light clusters -- does not bother me in person the way it did in print. I could certainly learn to live with it (as I have the questionable design of the LS430 headlights).
The rear, as many here have said, is an entirely different matter. Dark colors, light colors, in person or in a mag, it is just plain ugly. There are so many ideas and design elements competing for attention that it becomes a jumbled mess. I have said before, and this in-person inspection confirmed, that it looks as if the rear quarters and trunk were assembled from spare parts from 6 different model years of the same car; all the pieces fit mechanically but don't look as if they came from the same car. I don't think I would ever get used to that, and would not buy the car for that reason alone (although I suspect that I would not like idrive, and that would probably keep me from buying anyway).
My guess is that they are aggressively working as we speak on a facelift for the rear, to bow next year or the year after. I also guess that they will try to find a way to make idrive an option before too long. I hope I am right on both (and I hope the car proves reliable), since I would like to be able to consider the car when I am ready to trade out of the LS430.