High End Luxury Cars

benzster · April 2006

*g. S550V  June production still has option restrictions and June orders will be allocated by option
availability. REMINDER: Vehicles with option 610 will be placed in error and WILL NOT be
pulled from your requests. We are scheduled out through July production on code "610" For
additional information concerning this option please refer to Net Star message dated March 10,
2006 titled Night View Assist.

lexusguy · April 2006

"If the LS600h is supposed to be a halo car, then the GS450h should also carry the torch. The 5.2 secs 0-60 puts the GS450h right at the top of its class. BMW posts 5.4 for the 550 even though it was clocked in under 5 secs. Im wondering why some of you are questioning RWD for a car that is being positioned as a performance sedan."

The 450h is indeed faster than the 430, but Lexus has the 460 lined up for 2007. It will match or exceed the 450h's performance, without the tiny trunk penalty. Making the 450h AWD would at least give it a reason to exist other than being a "feel good" vehicle with very questionable mpg benefits.

designman · April 2006

Well I guess that is similar to the point you made about the RX350. Seems like Lexus is hedging its bets, just letting the public and circumstance guide the hybrid scene. However it does strike curiosity about Lexus statement last year that all of their cars will be hybrid in four years, or something to that effect. I think they are wise not overproducing them.

BTW, Peugot Citroen plans on launching a diesel hybrid in 2010 according to R&T. Also, I read elsewhere that Toyota is indeed developing diesel hybrid. Pardon me if this was already discussed and I missed it. I imagine Toyota/Lexus fans and diesel fans would have picked up on that already.

tagman · April 2006

lexusguy - Your views regarding the GS hybrid are much more encouraging than mine. Admittedly, I have not been as optimistic on a GS hybrid as I am on the 600h. I have little trouble seeing a hybrid sell well in the very top tier carrying an LS badge and certainly in the already-proven lower tier. The Camry should fill in the lower-mid tier, but the GS hybrid is in a more challenging price category, IMO, and I can't seem to readily accept that it will be a shoe-in. My concern is not regarding the merits of the vehicle, which are admirable, it is only regarding actual sales. Certainly your perspective has good merit and let's hope you are correct, and that it sells very well over the longer haul and not just initially out of the gate.

TagMan

2001gs430 · April 2006

Here is another review on this car

link title

blkhemi · April 2006

Yes, it is true. LED lighting is a much more reliable source of lighting over conventional halogen lamps, at a much reduced price. I often wonder why the automobile industry won't switch to the better and safer LED's. They illuminate 100 times faster than regular lights. But I do see a shift in the taillamp packaging. There are cars from as cheap as a Honda Civic to as pricey as a RR Phantom that have LED taillamps.

houdini1 · April 2006

I have previously mentioned that I recently bought a 2002 Acura RL. There is a 60,000 mile scheduled maintenance coming up to the tune of about $500. For this you get an oil and filter change, new transmission fluid, new differential fluid, tire rotation, lube the door latches, etc. Plus there is a long list of other things that they "check".

What do you guys think and what do you normally do? Go the full monty with Acura or find a good local garage and have them do the work for half price?

merc1 · April 2006

I think that may be one of the reasons they're making the GS450h such low production because of such limited appeal to many GS buyers.

M

lexusguy · April 2006

I think the problem was that until now, they havent been able to get LEDs bright enough for headlight duty.

ivan_99 · April 2006

I actually thought that the price was higherfor tail lights that is. Usually you have one bulb (or so) for the tail lights and that is replaced with 15 or so LEDs.

So for a 1 to 1 an LED may be cheaper than a bulb, but when you buy 15 (est) for one side the price goes up.or not.

oac · April 2006

Come to think of it, it is darn interesting that Lexus, despite a tuning division, has come up with very innovative and state-of-the-art engines lately. To review, let us look back at what was, and today, what is...

1990 LS400 --> 4.0L V8, 250hp: this engine ran for 10 years (1990 - 2000), and only a marginal tweak to 278hp for the Gen-2 LS (1998 - 2000).

2001 - 2006 --> 4.3L V8, 278hp: this engine was re-bored to get an additional .3L displacement, but no real dynamic change in output.

2007 LS460 --> 4.6L V8 380hp: wow !!! Lexus goes from 4.3L to 4.6L and increases output >100hp !!! To wring out 380hp from that little displacement is outstanding, especially considering it takes almost 1L extra displacement for MB to come up with the same 380hp in the new S550. Props to Lexus and their engineers for this marvel of enigneering....

Now imagine if Lexus had a tuner division, what could they do to these fine engines in the IS (3.5L 306hp) and LS (4.6L 380hp) ! In the IS350, the displacement/hp ratio of ~90 is only matched or exceeded by Porsche. In the LS460, it blows away the 750i and S550's motor performance which requires a 5.0L or higher displacement to compete with Lexus' 4.6L motor.

The new 5.0L V8 in the LS600h must have close to 450hp (~90*5L ~ 450), although Lexus will detune it for luxury and performance with the hybrid. That's why it is difficult to imagine a 430hp in the LS600h which includes two batteries! I daresay, this engine will see a lotta work in future upgrades of the LS, and we can expect within a few years to see an LS500, with outputs exceeding 400hp, with a concomittant upgrade of the LS600h to >500hp. Yum !

tagman · April 2006

What do you guys think and what do you normally do? Go the full monty with Acura or find a good local garage and have them do the work for half price?

Depends. If you've got a mechanic or private import service shop or two in the area that are reputable and that you KNOW you can trust, it can definately be BETTER then the dealership sometimes, but it really depends on your connections and experience. Price difference matters, but peace of mind has a value, too.

Also, those items that they "check" beyond the service, that you were asking about, are nothing that a private mechanic can't also "check", and they are typically just glances at fittings, fluid levels, brakes, tire wear and tear, wipers, and bulbs. It's usually an opportunity for the dealership to find something else to service. Heck, bring the list of items to your private mechanic and ask him to "check" them out as well, if you think they are important.

Hope the car has been good for you.

TagMan

tagman · April 2006

Lexus goes from 4.3L to 4.6L and increases output >100hp !!!

Nice little chart you made up there.

Interesting. I'm thinking that the increase in 102 ponies is due to MORE than just a .3L displacement increase. Don't you think?

TagMan

merc1 · April 2006

Yeah its a whole new engine with two different types of fuel injection and I'm sure a higher than most V8s redline to get that kinda power. True the Benz V8 produces about the same power with almost full liter more in displacement, but the Benz V8 makes more torque and likely lower in the rev band than the Lexus V8, thats why the Lexus will have the 8-speed tranny to get the most of its engine torque wise.

M

blkhemi · April 2006

Cool little chart that you've made up. Toyota, and especially Honda, are known for making gobs of power out very small displacement/liter motors. BUT: There is one huge drawback to this. These engines are usually down on torque numbers. Take for instance the wonderful Acura RL. With 300hp coming out of only a 3.5L V-6, the engine is free revving , but you do have to stab at the throttle quite a bit to stay in the powerband in the twisties. Toyota's/Lexus new family 3.5L V-6 on the other hand, is a fiesty little marvel of engineering. With over 300hp in IS form, this thing is powerful off the line and while hustling corners, much easier to modulate than the Honda engines.

So yes, the compact engines do have plenty of advantages. They're usually lighter, have more technology bestowed in them, and are very happy in the rev range. But the big-bore MB motors are a hoot to drive. These engines get more and more American-like with every iteration, in terms of sound and raw power.

P.S.- As for BMW, squeezing 360-hp out of only 4.8L is a huge accomplishment itself. And with Audi bumping hp numbers up to 365hp with the '07 A8's 4.2L engine(thanks to a switch to direct injection among other things), this hi-po compact engine craze is on the rise.

stevekilburn · April 2006

Thats the future. Big displacement days are over, except at GM and Chrysler.

I would say 100 hp/Liter for even regular cars will become more common every year.

Acura has a turbocharged 4 cyl 2.4L producing 240 hp, 260 lbs of torque, so you cannot say they are low on torque.

With turbocharging you can do wonders.

lexusguy · April 2006

The RL's motor is typical Honda\Acura. (Its also down to 290hp after the new SAE spec). The TL's now 258hp engine behaves similarly, with a peaky powerband. The burly Nissan VQ35 is the same displacement, but its an entirely different animal, and will have "more than 300hp" in the '07 G35.

Interestingly, the RDX will break with Honda tradition, using a (gasp!) turbo, and making more torque than horsepower.

It's very impressive that Audi is able to keep their 4.2L V8 competitive without having to increase displacement. They're going to have to do something soon with the "3.2" V6 though, because the A4 is being left in the dust by the IS350, G35, C350, and 335i.

blkhemi · April 2006

THe 3.2L 250hp will become the base engine with the new '07/'08 A4. No more 2.0 models. The 3.6L V-6 with 300 horses will be the mid-leader and of course the A8-derived 4.2L V-8 will reside in the S4. Then there is the 424hp RS4 to contend with the new V-8-powered M3, with it's CTS-v matching 400hp hooked up to SMG or 6-speed stick(preferrably). But there is one major blunder with the RS4 that is sure to keep it a very rare car: PRICE. With an estimated average cost over 70k, this thing is out right pricey, more than the C55, CTS-v, M3, albeit it is more powerful with standard AWD. And there is even talks to introduce the wonderful TD that European Audi's have been enjoying for years.

I heard that the new VQ-II's will move to 3.8L with over 300hp in base trim. The next gen Z and Infinti Coupe(Skyline-based lets hope) will boast close to 400-hp. Who needs a V-8 when the Japanese are making V-6's outpace them?? I know, I know, us burly Americans want have it any other way.

But with the major shift to direct injection, car companies are able to squeeze out every ounce of potential performance from these engines. Just look at VW/Audi, which of whom are spearheading Germany's introduction into this amazing technology. Their 3.2L V-6 makes 250hp in both hp and torque yet returns 20/30 mpg in A6 form, w/AWD. And with the LS460 expected to gain 25% in average mpg because of DI, despite a fair amount of weight gain, makes this technology more than worth it. Now let's just get the diesel ball rolling.

houdini1 · April 2006

Thanks for the reply Tagman. I will probably just go ahead and have Acura do the scheduled maintenance. The RL has been great so far. I have been averaging around 20 mpg is mostly around town driving. The finish on the car (silver) is excellent and dirt and grime just seems to fall off. All good so far.

kdshapiro · April 2006

I'm sure you all saw it, but I haven't seen a review like this in ages.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=108988

merc1 · April 2006

I take it you're shocked to see a Mercedes get such a good review?

M

oac · April 2006

I believe the S550 is the car to beat in the HELM until the LS460 arrives here in the Fall. Lexus must bring its A+ game to the table if they hope to compete against this car...

stevekilburn · April 2006

It true that part of the reason why mercedes S is still at the top is because they have been considered the gold standard globally.

Lexus LS is the car to beat in US, but Lexus is not a global brand which means they do not drive 20-30% sales from all the three major markets (North America, Europe and Asia Pacific).
Asia Pacific would include Japan, Korea, China, Australia, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and Thailand at least.

That is the barrier Lexus has to overcome. In other words if Lexus has to become the global gold standard they will have to sell at leas 25% of their cars in Europe and another 20% in Asia Pacific. The rest may come from N.A.

Also, although I accept that its silly to mention but Lexus LS 460L is still 2 inches shorter than S550.

Moreover it does not have high end models to compete with S65 AMG which costs 180,000 but that might change.

stevekilburn · April 2006

I dont think Lexus sedans will ever exceed 500 hp. Though their Two-seaters may do that.

The LS 600hL is the first production Japanese car "EVER" to feature more than 400 hp and it took them 40 years. I am not sure if they will ever exceed 500 hp. They will instead focus on fuel economy.

But germans will probably break the 1000 hp barrier in not too distant future (discounting the Veyron, which is not a mass-produced car).

Imagine a S-class with 1000 hp roaring down the street with 6 mpg = city and 12 mpg = highway. Now wouldn't that be fun. It will strike terror in the hearts of prius drivers. :P

stevekilburn · April 2006

QUattroporte makes 400 hp from 4.3 L. I am sure lexus can squeeze 400 hp from less than 5.0L.

High rev engines in sedans will be a hit but they have make them silent.

stevekilburn · April 2006

But most americans love V8, no matter how much power Infiniti, porsche and honda keep squeezing from 6-cyl, there is something about 8-cyl which you cannot have from 6-cyl.

Its pure passion. 10-cyl and 12-cyl is even better.

M5 with 500 hp V10 is as passionate as it gets, but the quality and health sucks.

BMWs and Benzes are not very healthy cars. They are like sick children on steroids.

merc1 · April 2006

Well you know I agree with that, but I predict they'll both rule this segment until BMW does something about it in 2008-09. I wonder how the mags will compare the S550 to the LS460 this time around since it doesn't look like a cheaper S450 will ever come to be.

S550 vs. LS600hL, or LS600hL vs S600, S550 vs. LS460L

I wonder which it will be?

M

merc1 · April 2006

BMWs and Benzes are not very healthy cars. They are like sick children on steroids.

Dare I ask what you mean by this?

M

syswei · April 2006

Simply due to product timing, any comparos this fall are going to be S550 vs LS460L. Since I expect the S to be superior dynamically, at least with ABC, the S is likely to come out on top, given most auto rags' emphasis on performance and "fun".

I still think that one reason MB might be holding off on an S450 might be to force the auto rags to use the S550 in comparos...so that MB has a better chance of winning.

anthonyp · April 2006

My guess would be the S550 vs LS460l...I say because the 460l may be around the same length as the mercedes...If it is longer then the comparison would be the shorter length...IMO no matter they should be great cars both...I am getting a number of Lexus fliers in the mail, and the pictures look good...I am not in the market for a couple of years, and am very pleased with the A8...Tony

oac · April 2006

I won't automatically hand a win to the S550 when it goes against the LS460L. How do you know the S would be dynamically better than the LS ? No one has tested the new LS yet, so we don't know. And the past is certainly no judge of the future for this new LS. Do you recall the Dec 2004 C&D (or is it MT ? I forget) comparo which the LS430 won against its peers ? In that comparo, the S430 came in almost dead last. So I'd wait to see what the S550 v LS460L v 750iL yields. That should be a fun comparo...

lexusguy · April 2006

My guess is that the fastest Lexus sedan will probably be an IS460 or IS500, with 380-400hp. I also dont think that they have any real desire to try and compete with Mercedes on the 63\65AMG level.

Infiniti could be another matter though. The M is much more "Germanic" than the GS, and could very conceivably have over 400hp in a few more years. I dont see Lexus using their V-10 in any of their sedans, but the GT-Rs upcoming 450+hp, 3.8L twin turbo engine could show up in an Infiniti product.

hpowders · April 2006

"BMW's and Benzes are not very healthy cars. They are like sick children on steroids."

Is there a point to posting this?
Thanks for the laugh! :P

stevekilburn · April 2006

Sometimes I like to hit a nerve with merc1 on this. All in good humor, everyone knows what I am poking fun at

tagman · April 2006

But most americans love V8, no matter how much power Infiniti, porsche and honda keep squeezing from 6-cyl, there is something about 8-cyl which you cannot have from 6-cyl.

Its pure passion. 10-cyl and 12-cyl is even better.

IMO, I think there is a word for it:

TORQUE

What is horsepower without it's dear friend torque? Oh yes . . . Horsepower + Torque = [fill in the blank], and everyone say amen.

TagMan

merc1 · April 2006

I still think that one reason MB might be holding off on an S450 might be to force the auto rags to use the S550 in comparos...so that MB has a better chance of winning.

Yeah I've thought about that one too. I really don't blame them if they are because all this talk about the LS beating the S-Class has been incorrectly hyped for years when the LS has only beaten one member of the "S-Class", the S430. It has never (that I've seen) beaten the S500, but I have seen the S500 beat the LS430 in MT when the LS430 and S500 were fairly new.

Everything I've read at other MB sites suggests that with around 25K sold so far (worldwide) this year that production is at full capacity so an entry-level S isn't needed right now. The S450 was to be a U.S. only model and it isn't needed now obviously. I suspect we'll see a S450 after MB goes direct-injection on all their petrol engines which will be in 2008 so it we be more competitive hp wise.

M

merc1 · April 2006

Things will be very different this time for sure. The S550 won't be the oldest car in the class like the S430 was and it will be a current model year version unlike that 2003 S430 they used.

M

designman · April 2006

Any bets on when the Lexcuses will start?

;-)

lexusguy · April 2006

My guess is that victory between the S550 and LS460 will depend on how much the reviewers value the price difference between the two cars. If price is no object, the win will probably go to Mercedes. If it is, Lexus may have a shot. Who wins what in which automag ultimately isn't that terribly important to me. The Lexus wins in my own garage.

designman · April 2006

Well said. Is there any chance you won't like what you see when you get to road test the LS or are you confident it will do the trick when it arrives? Poor little 750, A8 and XJ won't be good fuh nuttin' in the comparos? I can see the LS faring better in MT and struggling in R&T. The latter take the "Track" part of their name quite seriously. You have to catch the reviewers who like lux to begin with. I guess this isn't an easy class to review objectively.

blkhemi · April 2006

I've finally received my info pack on the soon-to-be released Jaguar XK. The car is incredibly different from the one it replaces. Torsional stiffness is said to be up 60%(what's this thing made of, a bank vault). The interior quality is a mix of traditional Jag with a hint of new ideas.

I do have some reservations about it though. IMHO, I think that the engineers could've spent more time focusing on the front-end of the car as it is not befitting of a Jag nor the $70k(est.) asking price, more so a Ford convertible, not Jag. The powertrain, while still refined, want stir up any debates. With only 300-hp(sounds like a lot, but this car ways over 2 tons), it's just not competitve anymore. I know there will be the XKR(and later the XKR-R), but those are forced-induction cars. And with companies like Mercedes switching back to normal aspiration, it seems unnecessary for superchargers and more or less like not spending time or money to develop hi-po sophisticated engines(long ago, this used to be a Jag strong point). And it still has a cloth top, with most every high-luxury switching/ed to hard/steel top. Maybe it's tradition, as Porsche refuses to conform to steel Cab models also(huge performance issue).

But those are small squables. The new XK should be a very good replacement for it's predecessor. Let's just hope they've increased headroom in this one.

melmel2 · April 2006

You must see the 2007 Jaguar XK in person. I saw it at the New York Auto Show. Right now, it's one of the best looking cars on the road.

blckislandguy · April 2006

Tagman, torque is not a characteristic associated with high revving V8s. Smoothness, responsiveness, but not torque. The Ford 300 in-line six, for example, is much better in a 0-60 than the Ford 302 V8.

Since the development of the small block Chev V8 in 1955, we have seen an abundance of high revving, oversquare (larger bore than the length of the stroke) V8s. These were developed for HP and packaging reasons, not low end torque. The torque monsters though tend to have longer strokes and are usually in-line sixes. Most Class 8 rigs run big in-line sixes for low end torque and longevity (there is room for more surface area for the rod bearing when you aren't cramming 8 rods in a Vee configuration onto a crankshaft). Have you ever seen an Army Duece and a Half with a V8? No, they want grunt, not revs. On the other hand, many modern V6s are often oversquare because they are literally just a V8 with two cylinders lopped off, eg. the recent Chev and Ford V6s.

oac · April 2006

I guess this isn't an easy class to review objectively.

You are right. But if reviewers start from the basic fact that these cars are "luxury-full-size-sedans", then it makes the S and LS already ahead of the pack. I'd wager that if you pack an 8-speed tranny with a 380HP/370IBft motor, and do a 0-60 in under 5.5s, you'd expect some real performance from the new LS460. If it has any underpinnings like in the new IS, then it should fare well in the comparo. The new S550 is a truly nice and beautiful car, excellent reviews befitting this car, but it has yet to go head-to-head against the competition. There is where we'll see how truly great these cars are.

Lexcuses, you say ? We'll see who would be doing this.... What would Merc1 have to say if the S550 doesn't win out over the LS460L ? I guess you can always use the 8-speed tranny in the LS as an excuse, eh ?

But like Lexusguy, the LS460 already won in my garage, as I am biased towards buying this car. But, my wife currently has her sights on the 750i.. Huh ??? I don't get it... I guess we'll see soon enough...

merc1 · April 2006

I too don't care much for the front end of the new XK. The nose is straight off the Ford Taurus in design. They had to do something different with the nose to meet the European pedestrian safety standards I know, but they could have at least made it look better than that. As far as I'm concerned that the only thing wrong with the new XK and even the snout looks (well hidden) better with darker colors. The new XK isn't supposed to be a 2-ton vehicle, where did you see that?

M

merc1 · April 2006

Lexcuses, you say ? We'll see who would be doing this.... What would Merc1 have to say if the S550 doesn't win out over the LS460L ?

No where near as many excuses given by Lexicans when a Lexus (IS350, SC430 etc.) doesn't win a comparo.

Some Lexus fans were already crying foul just because MT's speculation about the new LS (before they got the correct info) had incorrect hp and gear numbers. That was clearly a warmup for excuse making if MT doesn't put the LS460 on top.

M

hpowders · April 2006

If they do get around to testing the new LS, it will be grudgingly, at best.

They did mention that the new S-Class is one of the finest in the world but a little short on "sport."

For me, not surprisingly, for these kind of serious bucks, I would go with the 750 Li, a perfect compromise between luxury and sport in the HELMREALM, IMO.

merc1 · April 2006

Any bets on when the Lexcuses will start?

Well I think you and Lexusguy have pretty much summed up how it will go. It will all depending on who is doing the testing and how big the inevitable price difference will matter.

M

merc1 · April 2006

If they do get around to testing the new LS, it will be grudgingly, at best.
They did mention that the new S Class is a technological marvel but a little short on "sport."

I think they're waiting until they can test all the new entries at once because they're only one of the 4 major magazines that hasn't tested the S550 yet. Even the non-testers at Automobile have had a more through writeup on the new S already.

M

hpowders · April 2006

That indeed would be a comparo worth waiting for!
Probably sometime in the Fall.

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