Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1…286287289291292…463

Comments

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    More on the 4Matic S550:

    The new S550 4-Matic will be planted with the 7G-Tronic tranny instead of the legendary 5-speed. This has been accomplished by using an all-new 4Matic system that is vastly more compact and hugely less-weighty(88 pounds) than the previous unit. The new model has a 38/62 split for power f/r for more RWD-biased driving.

    But here is my biggest blunder yet for the S550: Why is it that the previous S430/500 could be equipped @ no-cost with 4Matic and the new S550 tacks on a $3k tariff to have the safety of AWD. M-B says the 4Matic will account for 20% of all S550 sales. They may have a tougher time moving them, then, again, this is MB were talking about........
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Sure, your post 11293, quote:

    Len: I wouldn't even start a debate about the 2007 LS v 2007 S class. That debate is coming real soon, I guess. But if an anecdote of Edmund's is to be a pointer, compare the level of interest based on posts for the 2007 LS v 2007 S. That'd tell you something, isn't it ???

    Thanks for the *refresher*.... Great, I did write such back in Nov 2005. Anecdotal evidence did show (and still does show) that the levels of interest on Edmund's for the S550 v LS460/600 are far different. The S has received rave reviews no doubt. Ditto the new LS series, altho' without the driving reviews yet... Personally, I like what I see in the new S, except for a few things/areas... However, I like, so far, what I have *seen* (pics) and read (online) about the new LS series. A poster on the 2007 LS board from Japan did say that Lexus is stopping production of LS430 and ramping up LS460 due to a higher-than-anticipated level of interest from the buying public. Such anecdotal evidence supports my previous theory that the level of interest in the LS will far outweigh that of the new S.

    By the end of 2007, we will know for sure which of these cars has WON the battle of the titans in the HELM space, at least in the NA market. Wanna bet if all these anecdotal evidence points to a winner already ? :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I like the way this is all turning out.

    No matter what has been said, we should all agree that the new S is a success in terms of engineering, style, and performance. For the most part, it has received rave reviews across the board. Sales seem very good out of the gate and a little more time will confirm all that even more, I'm sure.

    In addition, we should all agree that based upon all the early data, the new LS is likely an improved animal in all respects.

    There has been little speculation, comparitively, about how the S and LS will most likely affect BMW. Most of the discussions have been about the upcoming head-to-head battle between the S and the LS. It is understandable.

    It feels like we've all got front-row tickets to an upcoming Vegas heavyweight championship fight. It's exciting, and many of us are already placing our bets.

    Again, BMW is lurking also, but I wonder where the balance between Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW would be. BMW seems to be more of a 3-series and 5-series company to me. I don't know if others agree with that, but I do see it that way. Will BMW have an adequate competitor against the latest S and the upcoming LS?

    Audi's improvements are amazing, but sales are not playing in the majors when compared to the others.

    So, it will be the biggest battle EVER between the S and the LS. I think it is fair to say that at this point the S is the current champion to beat, and the new LS challenger looks to be in the best shape ever seen.

    From a personal perspective, my friends know me to be a Eurocar guy . . . they have always been my favorites . . . but this new LS . . . to be fair . . . looks sweet . . . especially the LS600hL.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Why would Lexus charge higher premiums than Mercedes? That would take away one of their main reasons for being, to be cheaper than a Mercedes.

    Really ? This is the reason for Lexus' existence ??? As a lower-priced version of MB ? Shocking !!!!

    The only time a GS or IS is priced above a Mercedes C or E is when they Lexus is fully loaded and the MBs are stripper models.

    This is solely bcos MB rips off its buyers with everything as options. Geez... Imagine having leather as an option on a $36K MB ! BTW, Edmund's TMV has the C350 starting at $36,427, the IS350 at $35,194, the 330i at $35,157, and the A4 at $35,318.... Pretty much a-wash for all these cars. That MB mystique and brand doesn't amount to much in the lower cadre, I suppose.

    Now compare this to the TMV's for the S430 ($69,677), LS430 ($51,826) and 750i ($69,813). See the difference ??

    Just the point I was making....
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I admire your stout defense and relentless pursuit of lexus "value". I get my data from a number of sources including manufacturer's websites, edmunds, yahoo, etc etc.

    You are not quoting any statistics on the "actual" transaction price of LS versus "actual" transaction price on S. In the absence of such data I cannot count on your statement that
    buyers "load" their LS with so much equipment that it becomes 72K, just 4K short of S. May be some of the buyers do, but we do not know the approximate or precise figures.

    Regarding Build Costs: We are not talking about build costs here. This kind of logic confounds me. How is build cost related to premiums.

    Is it not true that if build costs are lower and ability to charge premiums is high, it will be a sweeter time for Lexus. The logic that "Lexus sells for less because build cost is less" is irrational. And the logic that charging less is some kind of marketing greatness by Lexus is also very strange.

    Price advantage is the opposite of price premium, and thats my point. The "ability" to charge "premium" compared to your competitor.

    I am yet to see a business which would not charge premium if it could. Should I slow it down.

    If my build cost is 100$. Competitor's build cost is 140$.
    Competitor sells for 200$. I sell for 170$, why because according to somebody's logic, my build costs are less. How funny!!!

    Wouldn't I love to charge 200$ even if my build costs were 100$? Wouldn't I love the extra sunshine and hay? Wouldn't I love to stretch the front yard and send my kids to Harvard if my costs of maintenance were same? Wouldn't I love to have fun and kids with Angelina Jolie if my costs of keeping her were same as Jen?

    Thats my point! But in the end I have great admiration for ljflx for staying at the trench and holding his gun.

    Both LS and S are sweet, and it doesnt hurt me if LS sells for 20K or 80K, its just that despite having a better product, LS sells at cut-rate prices, which confounds me. Lexus would do great if it priced LS at least as much as A8 and 7.

    As far as BMW goes, its because BMW's V12 is underpowered, 438 hp versus 510 hp for benz and moreover, BMW is still the underdog in every measure including cachet, heritage (120 years for benz versus 60 years for BMV), agility, driving pleasure compared to S.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    "Now compare this to the TMV's for the S430 ($69,677), LS430 ($51,826) and 750i ($69,813). See the difference ??"

    Well said Oac, just the case in point that Lexus is way cut-rate. And it will hurt Lexus in the long run. I say, go head to head on pricing with germans and bring back a better and revised Infiniti Q45 with 400 hp V8 to compete with Lexus and BMW.

    Gas is just 3.00$/gallon, enjoy while it lasts. Dont wait till it becomes 10$/gallon.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    No discussion of ES and GS and C,E here. Please stay on the topic.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Oh, the MB beats out the BMW for agility.
    Funny. I never knew that.
    Guess you learn something new every day. :confuse:
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    may be it was a little bit of a stretch, but the difference between 7 and S is not as great as some of their low end models. S is a very agile car in its class.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Both LS and S are sweet, and it doesnt hurt me if LS sells for 20K or 80K, its just that despite having a better product, LS sells at cut-rate prices, which confounds me.

    This "better product" thing will go nowhere fast. Mercedes was long in existence before anyone even THOUGHT of Lexus. Mercedes is legendary with mostly ups and a few downs throughout its life so far, with many bright years ahead. Lexus came along and was certainly needing to emulate certain criteria to establish itself, and needed to do so at a price point that would foster its success. Only recently have Lexus folks started to consider that the cars are good enough to be priced at the same price point as the competition. But . . . do they perform as well as the Mercedes or Bimmers? No they do not!!! And only just recently has there been the little IS model showing signs of potential performance. But the IS is no HELM and there is still no HELM from Lexus that performs as well . . . at least not yet!

    There are other considerations . . . styling being one of them. The newest LS models show signs of improved styling, but let's not get carried away. Other than the LS600hL, they still seem a bit on the neutral and safe side of the design curve . . . attractive enough certainly, but no heart throbbing going on. Yes, the reliability statistic is still in the Lexus's favor, but that gap is likely to close considerably. Remember, Mercedes has a long reliable history, and the few bumps in the road in recent years do not change that forever.

    Lexus, the better product? There is no justification based upon product reviews of the current S-Class, to determine that the S-Class has somehow been trumped. Again, almost every review puts it at the top. Currently, the only LS available is NOTHING close!

    The upcoming LS will be a better warrior and the fight will be more interesting, but the champion to be defeated is the S-Class, and nothing has yet changed that.

    The LS600hL should not be compared to the S550, and it is a different car of sorts, and it will be a wonderful Lexus, indeed. There are many months to sort out just where it lies in the mix of cars later this year or early next year.

    Also, consider that there is NOTHING that Lexus offers to compare to the AMG versions of Mercedes vehicles. Do you hear that? NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

    Lexus marketers are smart . . . no . . . brilliant. They KNOW that the price must be one of the advantages, or else . . . or else the "value" will fade. Without that perception of "value", things would be very different indeed. So, put down that famous kool-aid that has been referred to here many times and look at the FACTS.

    So, who's better? Give me a break.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm sure the S Class is great-just a bit too expensive and too high tech for me.
    Too much tech makes my head spin.
    I will be checking out the new LS this fall, however. This one will be a real winner and the competition in sales between the new LS and S class will be fun to watch.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Okay may be LS should be at a price advantage compared to 86K S, but at least it should go head-to-head with A8 which is an upstart too. Lets not forget even for a moment that A8 first came in 1994, 5 years later than LS. Of course there was Audi V8 since 1989 but that's different.

    I guess if LS is priced at somewhere between A8 and 7, that would be great.

    I see your point that lexus had to offer cut-rate prices to win market share and awareness, but now that it has all of that, I see now reason why LS should offer cut-rate pricing anymore.

    Only time will tell.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The S being a better handler and driver than the 7?? I've driven the new S550 and owned a S500/65AMG and neither were as engaging to drive as my 760iL(non-Sport) that I owned last year. The car was down right exciting, dispelling that "disconnected" feeling that is experienced in the S and LS.

    It's been known for years that the 7-Series is the athelete of this bunch, probably followed by the XJR, not S. Even AMG-spec S-Classes can't cut it with the 750/760i Sport's, albeit they're quicker tho. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Even with the ABC set to sport and traction turned off(partially), they can't quite cut that genuine BMW split of road and track.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Agility is different than disconnect from the road. You dont have to feel every inch to be agile. If you want that kind of bliss, why not go for 911 or F430 instead of 7. it doesnt make sense.

    Either feel the road passionately, or just enjoy the velvet. With 7, you get some of this and some of that, hanging in the middle, but miss out on purity.

    Purity is what sets LS and 911 (or cayman) apart. Either go velvet or feel the road!

    There is something called quiet or dark agility, and thats where S is good that.

    Personally I would love a Lexus competitor to S65 AMG. I would be happy to take that traumatic depreciation, but the sheer pleasure of a 600 hp of raw passion and that unique V12 growl will rapture me with ecstasy unbeknown to the terrestrial world.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Lexus does cheap sell the LS because they know that their product doesn't have the cachet that high end buyers are seeking.
    At the lower levels, the ES Lexus is priced right with the BMW 3 series and M-B C class. Lexus has a much lower build cost, since the ES is essentially a Camry, but prices the car with the Germans.
    Why? Because at that market position, Lexus has as much cachet and image as the Germans.
    When you get into real money, Lexus doesn't.
    Image and cachet are ethereal things. A Corvette Z06 will run circles around most Ferrari's and Porsches. Yet there are plenty of people who will spend twice the price of the vette or more for the image. Lexus suffers from the perception that it is noting more than a fancy Toyota.
    Second, it has been my observation in the car business that people tend to buy as much car as they can afford.
    If you are shopping $70,000 cars, you don't drop down and buy a $50,000 car.
    I would say that most LS buyers never seriously contemplated a 7 Series or an S Class, and vice versa.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Thats not true. Z06 is not the topic at HELM so lets not go there. I would still say, 911 turbo and 599GTB would out-gun Z06. Run circles around is an overstatement.

    It may be true that LS does not have the same heritage, but look at the recent HELM perception and you will be proven false. Moreover, contrary to your perception, Lexus is just as good as S and 7, perhaps better in some areas.

    link title

    The above link clearly shows how far Lexus has come.

    1. Porsche
    2. Benz
    3. Lexus
    4. BMW
    Followed by Audi Cadillac Jag and the rest, so this talk that Lexus lacks cachet is the 1990s talk, not modern.
    I guess you must come out of that monastery in tibet.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I see your point that lexus had to offer cut-rate prices to win market share and awareness, but now that it has all of that, I see now reason why LS should offer cut-rate pricing anymore.

    Well, you are making progress here. ;)

    Yes, you see that Lexus had to offer cut-rate prices to gain market share and awareness, but what you are describing is the"value" associated with that awareness.

    Steve, it is an integral part of the Lexus success formula. There have been countless hours of discussions about this on this forum. Many before I came on board and many since. The U.S. Lexus strategy is about that "value" perception. Without it, some may still choose the Lexus, but the equation takes a deep dive into a different direction, and it is absurd for Lexus to change a winning formula. Only a car like the LS600hL can take a slight detour from the strategy because it is unique enough and offers something BEYOND the competition in a certain sense. But even with that car, to venture too far off the successful path would be business suicide.

    From a business standpoint, there is no good reason to fix it when it isn't broken. In fact, it is FAR from broken . . . it is a well-oiled machine, a Swiss watch, a comet in orbit . . . something that just works almost too good to be true. To change the formula would be downright stupid, IMO.

    Take it a step further. Just considering the way that many Lexus fans think that Lexus vehicles could be priced higher is, in itself, a perfect example of the achievement of the "value" perception. It is, by definition, the whole point.

    If Lexus fans did not think that Lexus vehicles could be priced more, than the entire "value" perception would not exist, would it? Do you get it? It is an integral part of the strategy and formula. In other words, Lexus fans think that way because they are doing exactly what Lexus has in mind for them.

    It brings up the question: is this "value" perception a "perception" or "misperception"? That is more subjective, but I will tell you that it is a genuine perception, and it must be for the formula to work. Lexus vehicles are in fact a great value.

    But, a great "value" doesn't make them equivalent in all regards. It makes them what they are, and no more or no less. The new LS models will continue in the same brilliant fashion . . . they will be terrific "values", maybe even MORE so than previous generations.

    Again, "value" is an essential and integral part of Lexus strategy. Get used to it. Appreciate it. Embrace it.

    Oh . . . one more thing . . . "value" doesn't necessarily mean "better"!!

    :)

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Well, in that case its a shame that Lexus is all about value. HELM and value will never gel well together.

    Keeping on value bandwagon is a winning formula, but now its time to evolve, transform, break all the barriers, take some intelligent risks and shatter the existing mold.

    Now is the time, NOW! If lexus can shatter the cut-rate value myth, then it will truly gain a quantum leap to the next string of evolutionary spirit.

    Lo and Behold! May the messiah of price premium descend on LS and milk and honey (may be butter too) flow in the lexus coffers so they can divert it to R&D and lead us to new horizons and fresh vistas of power, performance, luxury, innovation and fuel economy.

    Arise and Awake Lexus, now is not the time to go to bed!
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Hey Pat

    Can you replace Phaeton (it is history now) with Quattroporte on HELM. Or you think its needless work? I just wanted to make the discussion more relevant.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well, in that case its a shame that Lexus is all about value. HELM and value will never gel well together.

    Why don't you go buy an LS and add 20 grand on the check if it makes you feel better?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    You totally don't get what I am talking about.
    Value has nothing to do with the equation.
    Perception and image do.
    The Z06 reference meant that in spite of the fact that someone could save half the price of a 911 Turbo, and get the same performance, plenty of people choose the 911.
    Why?
    Image.
    Whether or not the Lexus is as reliable as the Benz, or better is immaterial to most HELM buyers.
    After all, they buy plenty of Rovers, Astons, Jags, Maserati's and others that are not paragons of reliability.
    Lexus is clearly very strong in the near luxury segment. That is where most of their sales are generated.
    High end? Still lagging

    April Sales figures

    LS 1071 units down 53% from last year
    S-Class 3033 units
    7 Series 1624 units
    A8 500 units
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I will feel better only when LS starts at or above A8 and 7 :P

    Till then I am running on Tylenol and faith. ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Oh, adding a category is no trouble at all. I've included the Quattroporte, didn't need to remove the Phaeton to do so. Just because the line has been discontinued in the States doesn't mean it's history, no need to take it off.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Perception and image are surrogates of price premium, long leadership in quality, performance, design, innovation, technology, craftsmanship.

    In some measures LS is great and in others like sexy shape and performance it was behind (that will change with LS 460).

    Z06 has more of a blue collar image whereas 911 turbo has a executive successful image.

    I agree on your HELM comment but you have totally bombed your case by quoting April sales.

    Sales go up or down depending upon age of the model. LS 430 is at the final end and S550 is brand new.

    I would compared last 5 or 10 year sales to get a better picture.

    For LS

    2005: 26,043
    2004: 32,272
    2003: 24,083

    For S

    2005: 16,283
    2004: 20,460
    2003: 22,490

    Does that ring a bell?
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    I'll defer to you on this, but as I recall the 4-Matic came with a lesser (4 speed?) tranny than the 6 speed (?) that came on the non AWD S. So, you could get AWD or a better tranny for the same price. Now, apparently, you get the good tranny with either the AWD or the standard config. This might explain the price difference.

    In any case the 3K upcharge for the 4 Matic on the new S550 may be a moot point. I would think that in most regions of the US that the 4 Matic would residualize well on leases (isn't every MB leased?) and at the end of the month may not cost much more. Now if a new S550 was going to be your last, all time buy to ride down I95 one last time into the Florida haze after you punched out of your metal bending business maybe you wouldn't spend that incremental 3K but throw it into emerging market bonds and watch it double in three years.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    And you really believe MB is getting full MSRP. How do you explain sub $900 a month lease prices on an $78K S430 or a $999 price on an $87K $S500 that I've seen - often - in the past year. There are so many ways for a manufacturer to subsidize that purchase price that I won't even begin to start.

    Now instead of looking at prices at the outset, how about we look at them a couple of years out. Here's your vaunted expensive 78K S430:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/mercedesbenz/sclass/100197207/prices.html

    Here's a $16K cheaper LS430:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/lexus/ls430/100159991/prices.html

    And the $72K LS430 vs that $78K S430 will command $5-9K more than the S430 while costing $6K less initially.

    Now which car looks cheap and looks like the value buy.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The Vette may not have the upper-crust name of a Porsche/Lambo/Ferrari, but trust me, the Z06 is very hard to defeat. With a 0-60 time of 3.7seconds(faster than all three of the aforementioned brands), it literally runs circles around the comp.

    I have the pleasure of owning a '06 Z06 and wouldn't give it up for anything. Yes the Z06 sells for far less($70k with nice options) than a Porsche 997 Turbo($140k plus), but the pleasure of having this much fun at less than half the price of others is pricless.

    I'm far from "blue-collar", but I can have fun with them anyday.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Most buyers are not as insightful as you and not as smart in investing as you. I believe you are a former executive and have been in finance for long time.

    But I am emphasizing on public perception and even HELM buyer perception. Believe it or not brand cachet is influenced by MSRP advertised online and in print. Trust me on this!

    When people see 57K LS and 86K S550 obviously something will roll in the back of their cerebral cortex and their neurons will react to an extra round of transmitters!

    There is a difference between regular HELM buyer and hard-nosed battle hardened semi-retiree knowledgeable veteran like you. If that were not true, you wouldn't be on this HELM forum, or as a corollary, every damn HELM buyer and that means more than a hundred-thousand buyers/every year would be stalking on this forum for an ultimate armageddon.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Dont get me wrong, Z06 is a very serious machine and very admirably engineered.

    But the new turbo with VTG and the ferrari challenge F430 still have an edge.

    That does not mean I want to take away Z06's rightful place and strictly speaking its not blue-collar but I meant "in relative terms". I could have used better suited expressions there. But lets stick to the HELM and Sedans.

    Thanks for your input though.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    But when they see that cheaper Lexus holding not a higher percentage value, but holding more actual dollars than their car is it going to be overlooked? You seem to miss that MB always was a value buy. The value was in the longevity of the high prices retained vs original price paid and the fact that the cars were bullet proof. Lexus is a 16 year old company that has blown past people. It isn't about to change that highly successful formula as Tagman so eloquently points out. The strategy you want them to go to is a snob strategy that emphasizes status and dismisses their huge build cost advantage. That's a house of cards strategy for an entrant - and at 16 years old that's still what they are. If MB keeps playing that type of strategy long-term it will fail and hurt them - and their look at me Amex type of marketing strategy they were using has been dismissed - which means they realize it.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Thats why I said, price LS 460 against 7, which means LS will still have a "HUGE" $14,000 advantage over S550 (72K versus 86K) which will make smart buyers like you very happy!

    And ensure continued eloquence from poets and thinkers like Tagman. ;)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Thats why I said, price LS 460 against 7, which means LS will still have a "HUGE" $14,000 advantage over S550 "

    And the S450 will have a large advantage over its S550 brother too. Sorry - your point just doesn't make any sense to me.

    As for my comment re Tagman - change it to eloquently and smartly. The thought of Tagman as a poet never, ever enterred my mind. The thought of him as a smart businessman did.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Tag:

    There is much you said in this post #15303 that I agree with. I just would like some bit of clarification for my not-so eloquent or smart head:

    It brings up the question: is this "value" perception a "perception" or "misperception"? That is more subjective, but I will tell you that it is a genuine perception, and it must be for the formula to work. Lexus vehicles are in fact a great value.

    I am sure you do know that the concept of "value" is in the eye of the beholder. Buying a $60K car is NOT a value buy, imo. You got to have some change in your pocket, make/have sizable money, and have the smarts...and of course, brand-conscious. When you buy a HELM car, its not about VALUE... I didn't buy my LS400 bcos it is cheaper than an MB. I wouldn't buy an LS460 bcos it is cheaper than an S550. Far from it. That it is cheaper is only an icing on the cake. There are lots of reasons I own an LS, not one has to do with it being cheaper... Not one...I tell you.

    If you haven't heard me say it, I'll repeat it here. One of the reasons I do NOT own an MB is bcos I consider it a brand of the past. It is a brand my parents, and their parents lusted after. Not for me. I want a car of today, a new brand... Call me anti-establishment if you will... Lexus is the new kid on the block. They have cars that appeal to me - understated elegance, luxury, refinement and reliability. If they are cheaper, I am happy for it...

    For what the LS offers, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better buy among its peers. I won't overpay for an MB or BMW just bcos... The LS430 is as fast as the S430 or 750i. It is as or more luxurious. It is as or more refined. Its build quality is equal to or better than its peers. It may not drive as well as say a 750i, but it sure is more reliable. So I give up something, for something more important to me.

    If I need to drive a car to feel all the ruts and imperfections of the road, I'd buy a real sports car - a Porsche.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As for my comment re Tagman - change it to eloquently and smartly. The thought of Tagman as a poet never, ever enterred my mind. The thought of him as a smart businessman did.

    Lj - much appreciated.

    BTW, I just saw another new S-Class this evening . . . a black one. I'm now fairly convinced that black may very well be this car's best color. Interestingly, there was a CLK parked right next to it, and I was surprised at just how much larger and much more prestigious the S looked. The CLK looked plain next to the S.

    Also, good clarification on those posts to steve.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    There is much you said in this post #15303 that I agree with. I just would like some bit of clarification for my not-so eloquent or smart head:

    oac - I never asked for the description "elequent" or "smart", but I'll accept it as a compliment, because I believe that is what it was meant to be. Heck, I've got to take it when I can get it, right? ;) Otherwise it's all downhill!!

    Anyway, you asked me to clarify and I will.

    Firstly, yes I know that "value" is in the eye of the beholder. But I also know that when a whole lot of "beholders" are using the same eye, and seeing the same "value", then something must be going on.

    Buying a $60K car is NOT a value buy, imo. You got to have some change in your pocket, make/have sizable money, and have the smarts...and of course, brand-conscious. When you buy a HELM car, its not about VALUE.

    I disagree. IMO, "value" does not necessarily have price constraints or cut-off points. "Value" can exist in numerous price tiers for numerous products. It does not necessrily mean "cheaper", as you put it.

    You said that when you buy a HELM car, it's not about VALUE, but I would have to say that MANY LS buyers perceive "value" in their purchase, and the LS is a HELM vehicle. Perhaps many HELM buyers do not consider the "value" factor, or if they do, they have a different perspective of what "value" is. In any event, the fact is that the LS is a HELM vehicle and that many of its buyers do consider it to be a great "value". There is simply no way around this, IMO.

    For what the LS offers, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better buy among its peers. I won't overpay for an MB or BMW just bcos

    There you have it. You are expressing the "value" as a "better buy" in your own words. You asked me for clarification and I am giving it to you. As I said, perceived "value" does not have to mean "cheaper", and I know this is important to you. It does, however, generally include the perception that you are getting the most for your money. And, quite honestly, that is what you are expressing as well, IMO. So, what's wrong with that? Absolutely nothing.

    Did I answer OK? (I don't want to be too darned eloquent!)

    :)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for the *refresher*.... Great, I did write such back in Nov 2005. Anecdotal evidence did show (and still does show) that the levels of interest on Edmund's for the S550 v LS460/600 are far different.

    But here is the thing OAC, nno one said anything about who had the greater interest, ever. You're changing the points during the debate here and I think you know this. When did I ever argue that the S-Class had more interest than the LS? At no point did I say or even imply that.

    The point was that the amount of posts on a particular mesg board really has nothing to do with how well the car will actually do in the marketplace. Your implication was that a lack of posts on the 07's S board somehow spelled trouble for the new S-Class in the marketplace, yet the exact opposite has been the case so far. That was the point. Oh, and on the 07 LS board there is much more activity for sure, but like I stated way back when its usually the same folks posting daily, hardly a indication of much either.

    Both of these cars have a such a following and track record to the point where we know they're going to sell so trying to imply that the S was in trouble due to a lack of posts here at Edmunds was really reaching.

    This never had anything to do with "who has the most interest" here at Edmunds.

    A poster on the 2007 LS board from Japan did say that Lexus is stopping production of LS430 and ramping up LS460 due to a higher-than-anticipated level of interest from the buying public. Such anecdotal evidence supports my previous theory that the level of interest in the LS will far outweigh that of the new S.

    I have to remind you that MB and buyers are running into demand-based "problems" with the S-Class also. Good or bad, Mercedes badly underestimated the demand for fully loaded S550s and thus has a backlog of orders, this according to actual buyers/owners at places like MBWorld and other dedicated MB sites.

    Lexus stopping production of the LS430 to start building the LS460 is a natural progression to a new model so please don't hype it up to be some kind of gigantic shift in the way carmakers do business. This happens at every company with every model when a new model is about to go into production. Why hype it up be something that it isn't?

    By the end of 2007, we will know for sure which of these cars has WON the battle of the titans in the HELM space, at least in the NA market. Wanna bet if all these anecdotal evidence points to a winner already ?

    Depends on what the criteria is. If we're going to talk sales then I'll already give you that since the 86K S550 looks to be the entry price for the S-Class for the foreseable future. The LS460/L probably won't cost that much unless it is L model and fully loaded, but we'll see.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    But here is my biggest blunder yet for the S550: Why is it that the previous S430/500 could be equipped no-cost with 4Matic and the new S550 tacks on a $3k tariff to have the safety of AWD. M-B says the 4Matic will account for 20% of all S550 sales. They may have a tougher time moving them, then, again, this is MB were talking about........

    Well that was only done for the last couple of model years on the W220 as an incentive to keep them selling. Prior to that it as an extra-cost option.

    The new LS460 appears not to have AWD so the S550 4Matic will likely be in hot demand for those who really new AWD.

    I just wish Audi would promote Quattro (A8 in this case) more in certain MB strongholds in the North and Northeast.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Really ? This is the reason for Lexus' existence ??? As a lower-priced version of MB ? Shocking !!!!

    Is this you're way of saying that Lexus didn't come to be based on offering what they think is the equivalent to a MB for a cheaper price? If so you're mistaken on one of the key building blocks of your fav brand.

    This is solely bcos MB rips off its buyers with everything as options. Geez... Imagine having leather as an option on a $36K MB ! BTW, Edmund's TMV has the C350 starting at $36,427, the IS350 at $35,194, the 330i at $35,157, and the A4 at $35,318.... Pretty much a-wash for all these cars. That MB mystique and brand doesn't amount to much in the lower cadre, I suppose.

    Do we really want to get into the options that Lexus offers on the IS or LS? You write this as if Lexus doesn't offer any options. Sure they often have more standard equipment true, but they aren't option-free either. Quoting a bunch of base prices doesn't change this or disprove what I stated earlier about a Lexus still being cheaper in most cases when it and the German cars are comparably equipped. The IS350 is really the only one that stands sticker to sticker with the Germans when fully loaded because the GS and current LS surely don't compared to a S-Class or 7-Series.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'll defer to you on this, but as I recall the 4-Matic came with a lesser (4 speed?) tranny than the 6 speed (?) that came on the non AWD S. So, you could get AWD or a better tranny for the same price. Now, apparently, you get the good tranny with either the AWD or the standard config. This might explain the price difference.

    Well it was acutally a 5-speed on the 4Matics vs the 7-Speed on the RWD models. Ouch, please don't say 4-speed automatic those went out in MB's back in the early to mid nineties...lol!

    The price difference or lack thereof on the previous S-Class' final model years was done as an incentive to keep the car selling. This S has to go 7 years so I'm sure they'll make it a no-cost option again once the W221 gets tired.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Finally something I can agree with you on! I've been reading this between Steve and Tagman and I'd have to say too it wouldn't be wise for Lexus to price their cars at the same level because one of their main selling points was the price advantage vs Mercedes which allows them to price their cars at or above others in the HELM sector this time around, but still cheaper than Mercedes. You and Tagman are correct on this one it is a brilliant strategy that doesn't need tinkering with. The really briliant part is that this allows Lexus to always be a few dollars below a Mercedes but over Jaguar and Audi and roughly in the same general area as BMW. That equals lots of $$$ for them.

    Well actually there is one point in your post I don't fully agree with. I think at this point MB doesn't just say lets price the cars wherever we want to because as you know their whole structure (as is all Germans) is much more problematic (unions/exchange rates/ etc.) than the Japanese's is in general so they really can't scale back things to far. German quality costs and more so for BMW and MB than Audi because Audi has VW to spread the costs around. MB has done some price checking reality with the new S to a degree, but most of that price difference I don't think is there because they want it there IMO. A Mercedes has always been more expensive than all the other cars in the segment and like you stated in the past it was clear as to why. Of course we both know of their troubles over the last few years, but as far as sheer build quality goes they've correct their ways and the reliability results (on the new S at least) are still pending. My point being is that if they correct this before everyone in the free world has a problem with a Benz they'll always be able to charge a premuim over the competition. Now if the new S turns about to be like the previous one (which it isn't as far as build is concerned) in reliability then yeah you're correct about their ability to keep charging a premium over the competition. MB's way of pricing their cars goes back a long time and people have bought them at those prices for just as long so its going to take more than a few bad models during a certain amount of years to change that forever. Other than the W220's reliablity and initial build quality the S-Class' rep is in tact one model isn't going to destroy the years and years of rep this car has built up ruling the luxury car market.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Great post. Value, relative to a Mercedes has always been a huge part of why people who've shopped both buy a Lexus. Not the only reason as OAC points out but it is a factor for many. You see it in posts a lot here and on other boards.

    The meaning of "value" I think takes on a different meaning here compared to a Camry/Accord/Altima buyer who is likely looking the just the payments and to a lesser degree at the actual cars as to what they have or don't have in the way of styling, features, performance etc. etc. Just what I think.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Now is the time, NOW! If lexus can shatter the cut-rate value myth, then it will truly gain a quantum leap to the next string of evolutionary spirit.

    What do you mean by this? Do you mean that you think Lexus should price its products on par with MB?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Now is the time, NOW! If lexus can shatter the cut-rate value myth, then it will truly gain a quantum leap to the next string of evolutionary spirit."

    I think Lexus in more interested in profitability and has zero interest in steve's pricing obsession.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Yep, that's what he means. Gotta raise the prices to appeal to Europeans and those of us who savor the philosophical, cultural and intellectual essence of firing up stogies with 100-dollar bills.

    Hey, remember the movie Back To School when Rodney Dangerfield was making a hero sandwich, pulling the inside dough out of the bread loaf to fit extra cold cuts, then saying "I learned this in Europe"? Maybe that's kind of in line with what Steve is talking about.

    It's the genius factor. Perhaps we all need to go back to school.

    ;-)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "I just wish Audi would promote Quattro (A8 in the case) more in certain MB strongholds in the North and Northeast."

    Agreed. But from what I hear from Ingolstadt, the '09 replacement for the current A8 will correct all of the wrong-doings here in the States. It's said to come to market with a 4.2 FSI V-8 with about 470-hp/8-speed tranny as the "base" engine and a "clean" V-10 TDI within the first year it comes to the States. No more of that first year (remember the '04 commercials) marketing/commercial ads then just turning their backs on the FLAGSHIP sedan.

    So it all remains to be seen. I'm not giving up on my favorite German brand!!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes indeed. Raising Lexus prices would certainly help me out and probably prompt me to rush out to buy a couple of LS's. I certainly can't be expected to spend my money fast enough under the current state of affairs.

    I've been worried sick because all my friends and allies in Europe are having to endure the hardship of the artificially low prices that have been foisted upon them by Lexus. I mean really, who would be interested in value when you could have added "cachet".

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Yes indeed also. I just can't wait to write a check out to Lexus for an additional $20K of pure incremental profit to them and then tell people look at the even more expensive car I drive - it's a real HELM now to someone on the Edmunds board. It just goes to show you how silly seeking status is.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    S450 and S550 are from mercedes, sure those who want less power and save a few dollars will go for S450, but thats not my point.

    We are talking about competition and price premium here. Once you gain market presence and your brand is well known and respected, the next step is to bring the "prices in line" with your competitor to gain maximum reward for your effort.

    "Value" pricing by lexus is a great way to sell vehicles, but independence from "value pricing" and commanding the same price premium as your competitors is better in my opinion.

    This is not just marketing talk or resale value argument, the argument here is

    "commanding the price premium for a new HELM".

    By implying that S550 is over priced and that being the reason why its resale price is not as good as that compared to LS does not make sense. There are other factors involved such as quality, design, recent perceptions, reliability, technology (well sorted technology) etc etc.

    The reason why I am obsessed with price for LS is because I am in business too and if I can lead my brand away from "value within HELM" image to a "premium HELM" image I would make all out effort to do it.

    I believe the LS 460 has the goods to make that transition and its up to lexus to see if they are wise enough to seize the moment.

    Also the comment that why change a successful formula, and keep it simple is not a good idea. The "value" formula is good today but what about tomorrow.

    We must consider evolution of brands. The LS was selling so well, they need not put more performance in it, but why did lexus introduced a 380 hp V8 and emphasized "unique connection to road" and driving dynamics in the upcoming LS?

    The reason is simple, its time to evolve and add more qualities to the vehicle and adding premium pricing is one of those things that makes up the image of the brand too.

    Also, I am not proposing LS should charge as much as S550, but it should at least be head-to-head with 7-series.

    Which means if 745i = 72,000 then LS 460 = 72,000 too
    and 745Li = 76,000 then LS 460L = 76,000 too

    still thousands of dollars cheaper than S550.

    This kind of pricing will likely reduce the "volumes" but the extra price and profits will more than make up for that.

    Thats my honest opinion, now its your turn.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    steve - are you suggesting that Lexus is not bringing in enough profit for Toyota? Are you also suggesting that the vehicle's profit margins are skinny? If anything, they are very healthy, my friend, and I wish I owned a Lexus dealership or two myself!!!

    There is plenty of profit at the current price strategy. Fact is, there is generally a better profit margin on a lower priced Lexus than on a higher priced Mercedes!

    You've made your point, but you keep on grinding. READ all the counterpoints and consider the merit in them. I have to admire you for your high-spirited nature, but c'mon already, let's move past this campaign of yours to raise Lexus prices.

    If you do not believe me, ask ljflx. You have already complimented his business knowledge. Ask him if a Lexus dealership is in need of higher prices or margins. I'll bet he'll tell you that they are doing just fine with the current winning strategy.

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    well said oac.

    The LS 460 now needs to evolve into a true premium HELM and price should be a head to head with 7 and A8.

    And it will still have a 14,000$ price advantage over S550.

    It will still be "GREAT" value since the quality and reliability and resale value will be higher than 7 and A8.

    The driving dynamics will greatly improve too. May be (just a guess) as good as 7.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles