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High End Luxury Cars

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  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Stressed Miami drivers speed, tailgate and cut off other drivers so frequently that the city earned the title of worst road rage in a survey released Tuesday.

    AutoVantage, an automobile membership club offering travel services and roadside assistance, also listed Phoenix, New York, Los Angeles and Boston among the top five cities for rude driving.

    Minneapolis, Nashville, St. Louis, Seattle and Atlanta were rated as the cities with the most courteous drivers, who were less likely to change lanes without signaling or swear at other motorists.


    source

    Personally, the rudest I've experienced is Newark, NJ, but I assume that's not in the top 20 MSAs and so wasn't included.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    But I know a thing or two about business and the No.1 rule is not to stray FAR from what made you what you ARE

    Hey lj . . . remember when Coca Cola tried that little trick on all of us? They strayed too FAR from what they ARE . . . and then they had to return to what they ARE . . . and it became known as Coca Cola Classic!!!

    I agree with you on all of this. It all needs to happen a step at a time . . . carefully, strategically, deliberately.

    TagMan
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    Maybe this is why I have never, ever seen a late model S sedan in all of Quebec. Nor a new (post '03) Jaguar XJ or a new (post '02) 7 Series. You guys do love the Mazda 3's though.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Hey lj . . . remember when Coca Cola tried that little trick on all of us? They strayed too FAR from what they ARE"

    New coke - remember it well. The problem for coke was that new coke was Pepsi in a coke bottle.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Way back in my exclusive HS for future HELM'smen, we had to read HELM and SuperHELM in my honors' English class. George Bernard Shaw wasn't it?

    Glad to see you posting again Steve.
    You bring a refreshing cool breeze which helps disperse some of the hot air around here.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If I were Lexus, I wouldn't show any fear of competing directly with Mercedes. They're ready.

    I'd have more of a problem competing with BMW in sportiness right now. They are not there. May never be there.


    Doc,

    It's good to know you are feeling better. You are waving those Lexus pom poms very nicely. ;)

    The thing is, that Lexus already hasn't shown any fear of Mercedes. They know just how to compete, and they've been doing a brilliant job, IMO. All of a sudden, some of the Lexicans get a swollen head over that success and get over-confident and the next thing you know, when that success goes to the head . . . it causes a classic tragedy in business strategy.

    Hershey chocolate is a supreme product that RULES in North America, but it does not try to be one of the "premium" chocolates, because it has a brilliant business model.

    Recently, even Dell computer almost made a tragic mistake, as they were considering large price increases. For a very short time, they actually restructured their price model and web site and suddenly their revenues started to drop. They quickly returned to their successful formula, but with careful minor adjustments, and not a major repositioning of themselves.

    The business world is full of examples, and it is NOT in Lexus's best interest to reposition themselves at this time. Mercedes will not stand by. Expect major things to come from Mercedes, beyond their well-engineered S-Class. Lexus needs to continue to improve their products and not get over-confident, and not reposition themselves, but stay the successful course. As they continue to do so, they will continue to BUILD upon their reputation, not re-invent it.

    Doc, BMW is less of a problem for Lexus than you think. As time goes, the performance of the Lexus will reach higher levels that will soon be very adequate, even if the BMW's are technically superior on paper. There comes a point when the drive itself is terrific enough, and the paper specifications then lose some of their real life significance. The little Lexus IS is evidence of the gap starting to close with BMW. There's a ways to go, of course, but I do not see this as much of a problem as you seem to. Heck, I think BMW is vulnerable.

    To sum up, I see the Mercedes and Lexus battle as being far from over, and the Lexus strategy will, for the most part, need to stay in place. BMW, IMO, has more to lose in the long run.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    It is easy to take words verbatim and not put it into proper context... Denny Clements' comments have been analyzed to death already, but if you consider one of the strengths of BMW is in keeping their products fresh in 18 month cycles of engine upgrades. This is ONE of the key points Denny made about doing it the BMW way... Not verbatim create a 5- killer ! No one can simply kill off a car like the 5 with such a large following. BMW is a premier auto company and have been doing it for 50+ years, so how can Lexus remotely hope to kill off the venerable 5-series ? Not gonna happen....

    Boy a mouthful there. This is a complete reversal of what we've been hearing all this time about the GS vs. 5-Series and IS vs. 3-Series. The reason why your boy's comments have been talked about so much is because some Lexusfans in particular touted everything he said as the next coming of the automobile along with the usual doom predictions. It was Clements said this and Clements said that and you "better believe it will happen" about everything he said about the GS and IS. Now however, I can't believe what I'm reading!

    For what the GS is, it is satisfying for its owners... For what the 5-series is, it pretty much meets their owners needs... Everyone should be happy. BMW is selling lots, and Lexus is selling enough to make the GS line profitable. That's what counts in the final analysis - SALES... That's why these companies are in business...

    Sounds like a Lexus-branded concession speech to me. To be fair though the GS is a fine car, very slick and refined and I enjoyed driving it, but to look at it is difficult.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Doc you're confused.

    I know you didn't bring up the $50k CLK as a C320 coupe! YOU can't wait to announce it as a SC430 competitor, and superior at that. The CLK and C-Class sedan share a platform, and that's about it.

    Yeah I did as to say that the CLK's sales aren't counted in the C-Class like BMW counts their 3-Series coupes in with their sedan. The CLK shares its engines and platform with the C-Class sedans, just like the 3-Series coupes and sedans do, but the difference is the CLK is priced like an E-Class. Point being that the C doesn't have the variants like the 3-Series when it comes time to count the sales numbers. Yes the CLK500 soon to be CLK550 will trounce your SC430 as did the CLK430 before it. The SC430 is as lame of a duck as you claim the C-Class is.

    The CTS, TL, 3-series, G35, and ES all DOUBLE C-Class sedan sales!

    Are you sure about this? Don't have time to look up the numbers at the moment, but again the C-Class is the oldest car of the lot so like I said before it is very easy to pick on its sales at this point. Shall we talk about the free fall the LS430 is doing this year? Of course not because common sense tells us that it is going to drop like a rock with all the newer competition on the market so you harping about the C's sales smacks of desperation to the highest power. Its quite rediculous actually.

    More on your tall sales claims in a few!

    Picking on the looks of the ES smacks of desperation, Merc. You'd be doing a jig if the C-Class could sell anything like the ES, which has dominated the C-Class for, I don't know, 15 years?

    Once again, you fail to understand what competes with what. The C-Class is a smaller, rwd sedan that doesn't compete with the push box, pokeman mobile one on one. Yeah I said the new ES is ugly, it is as ugly as all getout. Domination you say? Likewise, that is what the E has done to the GS all these years. Talking about the C's sales this late in its life smacks of desperation because the only thing happening to the C's sales is what happens to all cars in their 6th model year!

    The C-Class is like that little, nasty, leftover runt piece, at the end of the string of sausage. Only the truly desperate and depraved grab that piece.

    Kinda how I felt about the previous IS,GS and every LS from 1995-2006.

    Regarding the ES vs GS, Lexus doesn't position the GS as a step up from the ES, as the interior room is about the same, and their missions are clearly different. As I've stated before, the LS is the Es' big brother, and the GS, is SUPPOSED TO BE the IS' big brother. That Lexus hasn't followed up on that promise is one of their few mistakes of late.

    Well is that some dodo marketing on their part. How could a car that is priced more than another from the same brand NOT be a step up? That is just plain dumb on Lexus' part. Then again this goes back to what I said about Lexus' and their wannabe sport image, they don't have one because on paper and in reality (if I go by your comments about the GS' lack of space compared to the ES) the ES makes more sense to most buyers, making the GS like totally irrelevant. The GS ain't no BMW and if it isn't roomier than the ES then what is the point of buying one. Now watch as the GS' numbers sink even further while the new ES takes off.

    I'm pretty sure you've never heard me applaude their dynamics, except at times like when C&D called the last GS430 a virtual equal to the 540i in dynamics in 2000 in a comparison. Or when MT said the GS was BETTER in '98. The last GS was what the current M is now. The overachiever. But they left well enough alone, and that won't cut it anymore.

    Another Lexusfan backs away from their middleweight darling, the GS. All that jazz about 1998 and 2000 is eons ago, get with the program doc as in at least 2005 or better! You since the GS's current design hit the road.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The CTS, TL, 3-series, G35, and ES all DOUBLE C-Class sedan sales!

    Really doc? You've got to learn to research these claims before the Lexus-induced chest thump because you couldn't be more wrong.

    Jan-April - YTD 2006

    C-Class-> 14017
    ES330---> 15390
    TL------> 24000
    G35-----> 12169
    CTS-----> 17913

    Must be the new math because not one of those are "double" (28K or better) C-Class' sales! BTW, you can't holler about the C-Class wagon or hatchback, they haven't been in the sales picture since summer of 2005 when the 2006 models hit the ground.

    The only car that does what you say is the 3-Series which is brand new so it is to be expected.

    Source

    M
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    The C-Class is like that little, nasty, leftover runt piece, at the end of the string of sausage.

    Please, you don't need to sugar-coat it for us. :)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    grey Poupon it can be curiously refreshing.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    How do you know that it is not in Lexus' best interests to reposition themselves?

    The hershey chocolate and dell example you have given are exercises in blunder and chaos.We all know Dell was mass-market right from the beginning like Toyota or Ford.

    Comparing Dell or Hershey or Coke with lexus is like comparing Toyota with lexus, doesnt make sense at all.

    Neither Dell, nor Hershey or Coke are luxury brands. They sell by the tens-of-millions every year.

    If Toyota wants to reposition itself where Benz is then yes, we must cite these examples.

    Lexus must evolve from "Value HELM" to "premium HELM" in my opinion otherwise the long term future of lexus BRAND will be in jeopardy.

    Lexus must continue to evolve and re-invent itself, and in order to do so it has to stop cut-rate pricing and price its products head-to-head with BMW-7 or Audi A8.

    OVER CONFIDENCE: NOBODY IS ASKING TO MATCH S-CLASS PRICING. IF LS 460 IS PRICED HEAD-TO-HEAD WITH 7-SERIES IT WILL STILL HAVE SIGNIFICANT PRICE ADVANTAGE COMPARED TO BENZ.
    How much time do you need before it sinks in?

    Lets not forget what happened to Neanderthal man, it did not evolve so it was eliminated from the evolutionary cycle.
    TRIED AND TESTED: NEANDERTHAL MAN USED TRIED AND TESTED FORMULA FOR SUCCESS, AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED, IT STOPPED EVOLVING, AND WAS FINALLY ELIMINATED. DO YOU WANT LEXUS TO BE NEANDERTHAL MAN?
    With LS as the latest update from Lexus, this is the time to close the price-gap.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Lexus must evolve from "Value HELM" to "premium HELM" in my opinion otherwise the long term future of lexus BRAND will be in jeopardy."

    And it is doing so and it will get there. The difference between your opinion and others here is that you wanted it to occur yesterday, and most of us see it happening down the road. The real way to get there is in progressive steps. Lexus needs to offer more product and variability before it makes a serious price move all at once. They will do it but it will be in measured steps. They will gradually buid their arsenal of available products and raise prices deliberately and slowly. Over time it becomes firm just like the fed's rate moves which have pushed us back into a high interest rate enviroment - even with minimal inflation. It's the way business gets done. But no matter how they do it Lexus will still offer value because that is what their business mission statement is all about.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Shall we talk about the free fall the LS430 is doing this year? Of course not because common sense tells us that it is going to drop like a rock with all the newer competition on the market so you harping about the C's sales smacks of desperation to the highest power.

    The LS430's *free fall* in sales is nothing to do with its competition but more to do with its pending model change over. You should know that, Merc1... Lexus has one of the highest owner retention in the industry... Many owners are simply waiting on their hands to buy the LS460 and its other variants... When you see the new LS, why would you not wait another 5 months ???

    Yeah I said the new ES is ugly, it is as ugly as all getout.

    The right adjective here would be IMO... A car as successful as the ES clearly has a lot of things going for it. It is the clear and undisputed leader in its sector... Its not even close... You don't have to like it, but to categorically diss it like you do smacks of hate and lack of objectivity. You simply have a one-track mentality of cars... they should drive like they are on a track otherwise condemn them to the scrap yard... Get real !
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Give it up, Steve.... Its boring as old already. Everyone, and their dog have heard you loud and clear. You aren't saying anything new, so why beat a dead horse.... Lexus will do whatever they feel is right. Feel free to buy their product or buy the higher priced HELM just bcos it is higher priced. Its your money, afterall... Personally, I am tired of this line of discourse... I'd like to read from you something else you'd like to add to the HELM forum besides pricing...
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Here is some recent news which again makes strong case in favor of new LS 460 competing head-to-head with BMW 7 in pricing. LS 460 is the most technologically advanced vehicle on the planet. period.
    This research was done by telematics experts. Read on:

    link title
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    What OAC is saying is simple - all the points have ben made. Your point comes in loud and clear and we all get it. The important thing in a friendly argument/discussion is to get your point across and you accomplished that. But you seem to want to win the argument by getting everyone to agree with you. Even if we did what's the difference. Non of us have control here.

    As it stands many of the price points we're expecting are nearly in line with what you want. The pices I was told was mid 60's on the SWB LS460 but it can go to the low 70's. $68-74K on the LS460L but it can go to $80K and $82-102K on the LS460HL with the most common car configuration in the high 80's. Do you want prices to be higher than this? As it is this is a pretty healthy uptick in LS prices and model variation if the data is accurate.
  • drfillldrfilll Posts: 9
    The C-Class usually sells in the 40k range, while the others are around 70k, consistently. The C-Class is still on it's usual pace, but the others are down in sales, most probably due to the product cycles of the G35, ES, and CTS coming to an end this year. So I wouldn't puff out my chest too far, Merc. Unless you are proud of the consistency of the C-Class mediocrity.

    Maybe CLK is really a C-Class, but I'm not buying it as a C-Class. It's evolution does seem to come from the slab-sided E-Class coupes of the 1980's, not a entry-level 190E derivative. And it's precious pricing, and optional V8 engine are also E-Class, not C-Class, based. So if that's what you're sellin', I ain't buyin!

    You are quick to rag on the GS, but the last gen did VERY WELL in direct comparisons to the 540 and E420 in competitive comparisons, just not in sales. I guess when it serves your purposes, sales are of PARAMOUNT importance, no?

    And you seem to imply that I blindly love every vehicle Lexus makes, which is wrong. I like some, I love others, and the GS I am the most chaffed by, and I have said this many times here and elsewhere. I wanted the GS to have the edginess of the 5-series, in looks and comportment, but with a more elegant interior. And if you are gonna be loose throwing around 5-series comparisons, make Sports Pkgs., manual transmissions, and aggressive designs that the people can gravitate to.

    The IS is doing BIG business, and it still is not being all it can be. I want the looks and interior of the IS, with the drivetrains and back seat of the 3.

    I'd short-cycle the GS, and give it the IS treatment, and make it a true sports sedan for 2009. Make a "Sport" model with manual transmissions and aggressive suspensions/drive ratios for both the GS350 and GS460, and "Luxury" models, with Auto-only.

    And keep the VDIM off of the "Sport" models!

    DrFill
  • drfillldrfilll Posts: 9
    The next LS is such a upgrade in power, size, and features, a mid-to-upper $60's base price is easily justified. I don't see the point in comparing the next LS to the current or past evolutionary changes. This one is a revolution! I'd start maybe $2k under the 7, at $69k.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Lexus must evolve from "Value HELM" to "premium HELM" in my opinion otherwise the long term future of lexus BRAND will be in jeopardy.

    Steve, welcome back (hopefully) ;)

    FINALLY, some truth in your statement, although not completely.

    As the others have pointed out to you, I am also tiring of this line of discussion, but I will try to be patient and reason with you here. So, PLEASE understand this post, my friend.

    YES, Lexus must EVOLVE, and that is exactly what is happening. Successful evolution is a step by step process, and Lexus is in fact properly positioned as we speak.

    To move too quickly would throw away the value card that is important. Even as the LS vehicle achieves a par with other "premium" helm vehicles, Lexus has the incredible advantage of the value factor.

    Remember, the competition can always come out and surprise the world with a killer car, but the value factor belongs to Lexus at this time, and could be necessary in such a condition. It's like an extra ace in their hand! It's too early to give it up when it is such a strong card. Let the evolution continue and you will see your LS become marketed as a premium helm as more time goes by. It is inevitable. But, I repeat, the value card is a bonus that should not be discarded as yet . . . it keeps Lexus's hand very strong against the competition. And, Steve, NEVER forget that there will ALWAYS be SERIOUS competition from the Germans. And NEVER forget the perceptions of the consumer are paramount. Europe is proof of this truth. Never become arrogant or over confident when success is on your side.

    As we sometimes say in California . . . "Ride the wave, (dude)!" ;)

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    I completely agree! Its a revolution and therefore it should start at may be 1-2K$ lower than 7-series. Anything less than this for the most technologically advanced car (and this is not me, its a third party) would be a great trajedy.

    link title
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    You are saying such sweet words for California that I am tempted to relocate there! ;)

    I just tend to agree with what Dr. Fill says. As he put it so succinctly, its a revolution with LS 460 and pricing it $1-2K below 7-series will still enable Lexus to

    HOLD THE VALUE CARD


    Anyway, I am having a ball with this discussion, you guys are so dedicated, we are having a regular firework display here! :P
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Keep up the good work Steve!
    I find you posts quite Scweppervescent, that is, "curiously refreshing."
    I eagerly await your next posts with your new Lexus' price points coming from your most unusual business research.
    You may just become the Bob Prechter of pricing analysis.
  • drfillldrfilll Posts: 9
    Lexus really can't lose.

    Cars like the ES and RX combined can outsell other COMPANIES LINEUPS! So Lexus will always have nice sales numbers.

    The only battle is vertical growth vs. vertical ambition. Lexus knows there is six-figure money waiting for them, it's just how to go about getting it without seeming greedy, and throwing the Baby out with the bathwater.

    I just don't want Lexus to become another Acura, or really Infiniti for that matter, which really has a glass ceiling of $50k, despite good sales of the M35, which is a $45k car.

    Lexus should have no limits, and should move confidently, and fairly aggressively, upward.

    But if the LS moves north, the GS needs to be improved noticably. Maybe the engine swap will be enough, but I'm not thrilled with the offering, unlike how I felt in 98.

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The LS430's *free fall* in sales is nothing to do with its competition but more to do with its pending model change over. You should know that, Merc1... Lexus has one of the highest owner retention in the industry... Many owners are simply waiting on their hands to buy the LS460 and its other variants... When you see the new LS, why would you not wait another 5 months ???

    Oac read the post I was replying to, specifically the Doc's rant about C-Class sales. What you're telling me I already know and stated that in the same post Oac!

    I personally don't see how anyone could buy a LS430 at this point with the 1000 times improved LS460 pending.

    The right adjective here would be IMO... A car as successful as the ES clearly has a lot of things going for it. It is the clear and undisputed leader in its sector... Its not even close... You don't have to like it, but to categorically diss it like you do smacks of hate and lack of objectivity. You simply have a one-track mentality of cars... they should drive like they are on a track otherwise condemn them to the scrap yard... Get real !

    Ok, IMO its one of the ugliest cars on the road. Is that better? You're right the ES is the clear leader in its segment, problem is its the ONLY car in its segment. There are no other fwd imports playing the same game anymore so you really aren't saying much to say its the leader in its segment. If I have a one-track mentality about how a car should drive then you clearly have one about cars when it comes sales. With you all that matters if the car sells or not, not how it looks, drives or anything else. If the car doesn't sell or doesn't have the stamp of approval from CR or JDP then it isn't worthy. That is as one-tracked/sided as it gets.

    For the record I don't think cars should all drive the same way. Again, if you had read my post to DrFill you would have seen why I pointed out the dynamic differences of the ES vs. the other cars in its price range.

    As far as "getting real" I think you'd be wise to follow your own advice there especially when it comes to your hyping up and preaching about the Lexus brand so when called into question you won't have to go back on your iffy claims about the competition.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The C-Class usually sells in the 40k range, while the others are around 70k, consistently. The C-Class is still on it's usual pace, but the others are down in sales, most probably due to the product cycles of the G35, ES, and CTS coming to an end this year. So I wouldn't puff out my chest too far, Merc. Unless you are proud of the consistency of the C-Class mediocrity.

    I can't believe what I'm reading here! You mean to tell me you see that the ES and G35 sales are down because of a pending replacement, but you're still going to rag on the C-Class which has been around since 2001 (before any of the other cars you mention) all the while knowing that a new C is around the corner? How hypocritical is that Doc? Again, the C-Class does not typically sell in the 40K range. Do you need some more numbers to prove this? It usually sells in the 50-60K range Doc. Just last year it sold 60,658 units and in 2004 it was 69,251 units, so you're wrong again Doc. Source.

    Your case against the C-Class has fallen apart badly (actually it was never made!) because the statements you've posted about the C's sales haven't been true in the least. Secondly you're able to see the obvious reason why the others like the ES and G35 have declined in sales, but you can't see that the C is in the same situation. Profound bias detected! No facts included!

    Maybe CLK is really a C-Class, but I'm not buying it as a C-Class. It's evolution does seem to come from the slab-sided E-Class coupes of the 1980's, not a entry-level 190E derivative. And it's precious pricing, and optional V8 engine are also E-Class, not C-Class, based. So if that's what you're sellin', I ain't buyin!

    Well I'm not trying to sell to you that a CLK is a C-Class. One thing it is not though is an evolution of the E-Class coupes of the 1980's. That car (the W124 300CE/E320 Coupe) was based on the E-Class chassis, while the CLK is based on the C-Class chassis, has been since 1998. The pricing of the today's CLK is way cheaper than the 300CE was back in the day. In 1995 a E320 Cabriolet was nearly 80K, today that will get you a CLK55 AMG Cabriolet, big difference. Your reference to the 190E is out of date. Things were way different then.

    You are quick to rag on the GS, but the last gen did VERY WELL in direct comparisons to the 540 and E420 in competitive comparisons, just not in sales. I guess when it serves your purposes, sales are of PARAMOUNT importance, no?

    Yep I am. You using comparos while I use sales when talking about the GS is no different than when you turned to sales to defend the perennial comparo losing SC430! I pointed out how that car has been trounced by its competition and your response was sales, sales and more sales. Seems to me you're willing to switch out the criteria to make a point to Doc!

    M
  • drfillldrfilll Posts: 9
    The E320 coupe (not Cabriolet) was around $60k, the price of the current CLK430! I knew it, I knew it!

    You're just mad because I caught YOU bragging on how the C-Class IS NOT one of the 5 best sellers in the class. Maybe you should check YOUR boasts with a little research!

    And thank you for admitting that sales success is more important than dynamics when it comes to evaluating the relative value of a model, Merc. I'll offer you some cheese with your whine when the ES' sales accelerate again.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    You are quick to rag on the GS, but the last gen did VERY WELL in direct comparisons to the 540 and E420 in competitive comparisons, just not in sales.

    I dont really remember that. The GS picked up an Import of the year in MT for '98 (which doesnt mean all that much, MT has given plenty of "of the year's" to some terrible cars), and it was a 10-best winner once, maybe twice. Once the A6 actually got more than 200hp though, the GS would always lose to it and the 5. The 540i was a beloved car that dominated comparison tests like the 3 series still does. I don't recall the 98-05 GS ever getting an outright 1st place in any comparo vs the Germans. It really wasn't that great of a car. The V8 was very fast in a straight line, but handling was just average, and it had the all-time worst Lexus interior.

    I wouldnt expect anything for the GS any time soon other than an engine swap, and possibly a VDIM off button. If sales were like the RL's it would be getting emergency treatment, but I think as long as it maintains 2K+ a month, they will stay the course.

    I dont think the new ES looks bad. It certainly is better looking than the ES330. The one thing I think they messed up is that in order to fit with the "L-finesse" interior design theme of the other new sedans, they took out almost all of the wood from the last car. The interior is a lot more modern, but it also seems somewhat less luxurious.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    I agree with you 100% Doc, we dont want Lexus to become another Acura or Infiniti with a glass ceiling of $50K pricing. Look at what cut-rate pricing and absence of flagship products did to Acura and Infiniti. It will take a mammoth effort for them to recover now.

    Cutting RSX loose is a step in the right direction, but this stupid stubborn attitude to not make a V8 confounds me. Instead of confidently going after the gold, Acura and Infiniti are happy with bronze medal.

    I also agree on GS, they should give that 380 hp V8 to GS next year.

    Lexus should not commit this grave mistake or it will regret for all eternity.

    Your post should be enshrined as the constitution of the HELM discussion thread.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Thanks dude, Bob was and still is a maverick. Expect more fireworks and straight no-nonsense posts from me after a few weeks.
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