High End Luxury Cars

tagman · May 2006

lj - when I first mentioned this, I got the flame-thrower treatment, as though I was out of my mind, but I agree with you. This is only the beginning, I'm afraid. The world energy and political situation and the changing energy technologies will cause a MAJOR shift in the years to come. I expect hybrids AND diesels to pull in much larger market share over the years to come . . . as well as new gas injection technologies and better cylinder management.

Right now, you can steal a large SUV. This is always the early warning sign.

You will be glad you have that LS600hL next year. You might even save it for evenings and weekends and commute in a higher MPG vehicle, which seems to be an increasing trend. I believe that we will see some high MPG attractive 2-seaters in the near future that should provide a nicer way to achieve that type of approach, rather than an econobox.

TagMan

merc1 · May 2006

Isn't it though. When I read that comparo in SCI I was like they must have made a mistake when printing! The problem with the whole thing is though Mercedes facelifted the C-Class for the 2005 model year, but the engines didn't come until the 2006 model year. Both the engine and interior updates were badly needed and should have been done at the same time. The C350 would have been much more talked about if it come out in 2005 instead of 2006 when the new IS and 3-Series caught all the press glory.

Still though, talk about giving an old man a new lease on life! That C350 likely isn't the desperate little piece that Doc claims it is! We know the C "Class" isn't in sales.

M

merc1 · May 2006

You were right about C-Class sales. Ok! I missed that one. It sells much more than I thought.

Bingo! Finally!

But you are also guilty of lack of research, and saying without knowing!

Nope. Not.

You seem to like to pick on the GS, as I do the C-Class. For some reason you are quick to jump on BMW's bandwagon, while the E-Class gets passed over easily in comparisons, like it's bretheren, the C-Class (but that's discussion in another post).

Well if I do it is because this time last year we heard one boast after another as to how the new GS was going to be a true BMW fighter (I won't even say killer) from both Lexusfans and their head guy alike. It didn't happen and when it didn't happen in the comparos, all Germancarfans got was how the GS is selling, selling and selling. I merely pointed out that now since its sales are already dropping in its second year, which happens to still be its first model year of the new re-design, I asked what will be the excuse from Lexuscarfans now? You took up the argument for the usual suspects because they'd obviously been outdone because the initial promises of a BMW threat weren't kept and now the sales wasn't looking to good either especially with the upstart Infinti M gaining on the GS. That was my point Doc. The Infiniti in particular it was said here didn't have a chance at outselling the GS because people didn't want a sportier car over the Lexus.

You seemed to pick on the Lexus interior, and mentioned it is "Good in a straight line".

I remember saying something about its interior when I first saw one on the local dealer's lot, but never anything that harsh, and it having better steering than the E500 when I drove the GS430 at the Taste of Lexus last year, but I don't remember saying that it was merely good in a straightline.

Regarding the BMW 540i vs the Lexus GS, and I quote:

Save for it's compacted rear seat, the GS400's interior also received high marks, centered on the ergonaomically-friendly IP; and the backlit, sliver-blue-tinted instruments that automatically adjust to ambient light.

Added to these appealing features is a sticker price of $50,347, the lowest of the group, and more than $5k less than the winning BMW. Based on such numbers (lower price, better skidpad numbers, better braking, better top speed, better economy at 24MPG, slower in 60 and quarter by .10 seconds), one could certainly question the Gs' second place finish.

Suffice it to say that a one-point seperation on scores might be considered a tie. The GS is that good!

Car & Driver, Nov. 1998

Other significant facts:

GS earns C&D "10 Best" in 1999.

GS beats Mercedes & BMW in MT comparison in that year.

GS suffers another incredibly close second in R&T the next year.

Mercedes is beaten every time by Lexus, in performance, and price.

The problem with this Doc is that you're living in the past and you're doing the same switch of criteria as you did with the SC430. This data is as old as all getout and secondly Mercedes didn't market the E of that day as a BMW fighter nor did they promise a BMW fighter when the 2003 E appeared. Lexus did with the 2006 GS, that is why I use the BMW as a reference when talking about the GS. The 5-Series is the car that LEXUS said was the competitor, not the E-Class.

It really looks kinda desperate to me for you to have to go back to the previous car and dig up a bunch of comparos that it most cases it didn't even win! What is the point?

Lexus has stated that BMW was the target, not Mercedes in the middle segment.

Let's agree on this. If you need facts on Lexus success and history, get a hold of me. If I need Mercedes history and success stories, I'll call you, deal?

No dice to that because I didn't give a Lexus history lesson to begin with. I brought up the current GS' sales as my most important point and secondly as to how it has been no threat at all to BMW's 5-Series. All of that is true as can be Doc. Your listing of old comparos in which the Lexus only managed to beat the BMW once and came in 2nd all the other times only proves that the GS during its entire life has never a real threat to BMW! Let me try and pass off a "incredibly close second" placing of a Mercedes to a Lexus as something significant and watch how the circuits go off. A close second doesn't count Doc.

Besides you were the one that was flat out wrong about the C's sales, not once but twice! I wasn't wrong about the GS never having been much of anything for BMW to worry about in either comparos (old or current) and certainly not in sales (not even close there).

Infiniti has done what Lexus said they wanted to do in just the last 3-4 years with the G35 and now the M35/45, build a true BMW competitor, not a half-baked attempt smothered in typical Lexus detachment and luxury.

And pick one bandwagon and stay on it, ok? When your team loses say, we lost, but we'll get you next time! I haven't heard you schill for BMW. You just did it to attack Lexus, which is beneath you.

Oh I'm on the Germancar team, with MB being the marquee brand. I usually don't have to go to bat for BMW because they're hardcore fans are usually lurking, but I just couldn't resist in raking the Lexusfans over the coals about all the boasting done about the GS this time last year. I have no idea as to what you're talking about with "we'll get you next time". That is a GM apologist line, you know that. What was beneath you was to come and rag on the C-Class for no good reason and then to consistantly get the sales numbers wrong. I wasn't "wrong" about anything here Doc, the GS' record both past and current against the 5-Series in both sales and comparo speaks for itself. It all points out that BMW has nothing to worry about from Lexus' GS.

M

merc1 · May 2006

Edit: In further reading of the entire last page of posts it was one yours that said that about the GS. Whew, I didn't think I said anything like that having actually liked driving the GS430 last year!

M

lexusguy · May 2006

I've driven the car twice. What I like so much about it is that it combines more sportiness than a 750 with more luxury than an A8, especially on the Executive GT version, which has adjustable heated, cooled, and massage seats in front and back, fold-down picnic trays and privacy curtains in the back VDP style, and an Alcantara headliner.

Perhaps its biggest strength is its exclusivity. The 760, S600 and A8 W-12 are all very exclusive cars, but they look just like the much more common V8 powered versions. The Q is unique and uniquely Italian, with no hints of German or Japanese influence. The only problem with that is the electronics in the car can't come close to matching the abilities of a Lexus or Mercedes. If you can get past the mediocre NAV system though, its an otherwise phenominal car.

http://photos.ebizautos.com/5579/956726_3.jpg
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5579/956726_7.jpg
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5579/956726_8.jpg
http://photos.ebizautos.com/5812/1009393_37.jpg

drfill · May 2006

I'll let your last post slide, since I made a mistake.

We'll hook up down the line. My beef is with Tag and LG.

Peace!

Tag

I don't see you contributing anything! Lebron can't hit every shot, ya no? Words can't bring me down, even my own!

LG

The A6 was just beaten by the GS in a C&D comparison last year, coming in 5th behind the E, GS, RL, and M. So I wouldn't pump those pom-poms too much for a 5th-rate ride! It's not even as good as a Lexus I don't really like!

DrFill

lexusguy · May 2006

The A6 was just beaten by the GS in a C&D comparison last year, coming in 5th behind the E, GS, RL, and M. So I wouldn't pump those pom-poms too much for a 5th-rate ride! It's not even as good as a Lexus I don't really like!

Ok.. so were talking about the current gen A6 and GS now? I dont recall cheer leading for the current car. In fact, I've said on several occasions that I think the interior is a major step backwards from the last A6, which is IMO Audi's best work to date.

As for that C&D comparo, I think a lot of the placing order was just as strange as Edmunds picking the GS as "Japan's best sports sedan". Their priorities were all over the place. In some instances it seems they wanted value, in others performance, and in others simple and intuitive controls. The only car that actually gets all three correct is the Infiniti M, and I completely agree with its 1st place finish.

The problem with an all-inclusive comparison test such as C&D's is that each contender is not necessarily designed with identical goals in mind. For buyers looking mostly for luxury, I would rank the GS 1st and the E 2nd. For buyers looking for a blend of luxury and performance with AWD, I would rank the A6 1st, and the RL 2nd. For buyers looking for a true performance sedan, I would rank the M 1st, and the 5 2nd.

drfill · May 2006

Apparently, C&D wants what every buyer of a $50k+ sedan wants. They only want it all! And if they can't get it, they will default to the most entertaining/powerful car in the class (M45 in this case).

The public isn't as forgiving as C&D is of the RL, which they were highly impressed by.

AWD is not a legitimate performance enhancer in California, where they do many of these comparos, or the South, or the Midwest. On a dry tarmac, the weight offsets the traction advantages, and it moves back in the standings.

I LOVE the Evo (especially THE NEXT EVO X!), but not because it has AWD, because it has low weight, a good sized back seat, great power, and, apparently, it's AWD system makes it appreciably faster than you'd think it would be.

A6 has underachieved in sales, and performance, from what I've seen. Maybe like the GS, the last one was better. I don't know.

DrFill

tagman · May 2006

My beef is with Tag and LG.

"Aaaaaa . . . what's up, Doc?"

Review my posts. I've joked with you a little here and there, told you I was glad you were feeling better, and when you glitched a little on your posts, I suggested you take a vacation, but you and I haven't gotten into ANYTHING like some of those heated discussions you've had with others.

In fact, I've been so busy lately that I've been laying kinda low on the forum, so to quote the old BK commercial . . . "where's the beef"?

TagMan

tagman · May 2006

I totally understand your admiration for this car. Since there is a local area dealership here, I still intend to get there and check this vehicle out. As I posted earlier, and blckislandguy confirmed, the tranny should be improved next year.

I am surprised that the NAV is sub par.

Regarding the Q . . . exquisite is the word that comes to my mind.

TagMan

lexusguy · May 2006

The public isn't as forgiving as C&D is of the RL, which they were highly impressed by.

Yeah, I dont really understand why C&D likes the RL so much. It's not particularly quick, or sporty, or luxurious, its too small, and the sticker is too high.

This also struck me as funny: It's an exceedingly well-integrated vehicle, and when you add legendary Acura quality and resale value, second place sounds like a perfectly reasonable outcome.

I dont think so, bub. First, Acura's "legendary quality" seems to be a thing of the past. The '04 TLs werent the greatest, and the '05 RLs were much worse than that. No better than any of the German cars. In fact, C&D's own long term tester was constantly in the shop (eight unscheduled service visits in less than 1 year!) with electrical problems.

Second, since sales are so poor and dealers are forced to give the new ones away, lightly used '05s are $35-37K. So much for resale value.

The Evo is pretty awesome, especially considering how much it costs. Unfortunately for Mitsubishi, the Lancer its based on, as well as every other Mitsubishi product, is lousy.

drfill · May 2006

It didn't sound like a joke, Tag. But ok! No hard feelings.

LG

If you check the Evo X forum, you'll see the Lancer and Evo are ready to become mainstream icons, if all goes as planned. The Lancer can be the next Mazda3!

DrFill

mariner7 · May 2006

The four luxury car makers in F1 (MB, BMW, Toyota, Honda) are having a tough year.

After finishing last year in 2nd, MB isn't competitive with Renault and Ferrari, despite having 2 super drivers in Raikkonen and Montoya. MB has very few podium finishes and no sniff at victory.

Honda dominated F1 for many years and then left. When it came back about six years ago, everyone expected it to eventually win again. Do you realize it hasn't won a single race since then, despite spending huge sums of money? Last year was encouraging, not this year, for Honda!

Rumors had it that Toyota spent much more money than anyone else, it doesn't even have a sniff at a podium finish. Toyota wants to win at least once before the introduction of its LFA supercar. The way it's going, nobody can tell how long that will be. And BMW regularly runs in the rear of the pack.

What is especially discouraging is the second drivers of Renault and Ferrari, Fisichella and Massa (a virtual rookie), are faster than anyone else! Ferrari is no surprise. But Renault is a surprise. It sells only econoboxes. The only passenger V6's it sells are Nissan VQ's. And yet its technology dominates companies with much better paper credentials. And it also operates on a tighter budget, that's why it's losing its leading driver, Alonso, to McLaren-MB next year.

It's never easy for a luxury maker in F1. Maybe some of them will follow Jaguar and quit.

stevekilburn · May 2006

A very good post from you. Toyota has committed a major blunder of EPIC proportions by pouring in billions in F1, a club of greedy fraudsters. But this is a HELM board so lets stick to discussing HELM cars.

Speaking of which you are right on the mark. Lexus has very sketchy history in motor sports and I believe the introduction of LF-A is a major blunder. They should have never started work on LF-A to begin with until they had a major championship like Le Mans 24, or F1 under their belt.

Daytona 24 which they won this year is not good enough (unless they repeat it several times in the coming years).

Instead Lexus should have gone ahead with a Super-Sedan, something above LS 600hL to compete with S65 AMG with a proper engine and cutting edge technology. Lexus has solid experience and expertise and credentials to make such a sedan.

I am not sure how they will market LF-A if it comes to the market as they have little sporting history. Sounds like a major marketing problem to me.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Merc1 and Doc, your thermonuclear wars are taking a major toll on this board. last 20-25 posts have been on C-class and 3-series and IS, which is not the topic here.

HELM board is for the top 1% of the market ONLY. Sorry to be ELITIST guys, but thats how it is.

stevekilburn · May 2006

You are right Doc, we must win these guys with love and respect. They have been brain washed by god knows who into "VALUE" hysteria.

But we must take it upon ourselves to bring them to the right path of knowledge and wisdom. We must not let them suffer like this. We must not allow our friends to be clouded by communist propaganda.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Thanks for enlightenment and pearls of wisdom, but I never said Maserati is suffering poor sales BECAUSE they lack long wheel-base and V12 from Enzo.

All I said was that Maser should compete HEAD-to-HEAD with bentley by introducing the ROYALE.

Besides, the engine is NOT from Enzo. It is actually a soft version of engine from 360 modena.

You are right on the mark on tranny. But I believe the bad F1 style tranny is not due to mechanicals or electrical elements but due to POOR SOFTWARE.

Ferrari has recently hired a software Company called TATA Consultancy or something by that name from India to solve these issues.

lexusguy · May 2006

Well, for what its worth, I've been driving the Maserati coupe and spyder cambiocorsa since they came back to the US, and their F1 box has gotten better every year. It is now at least on par with any other sports car with a single clutch SMG. Unfortunately DSG blows them all out of the water, and is the only one really civilized enough for the Q.

hpowders · May 2006

So I guess when you were posting about the Bose speakers, that was a topic for the HELM board?

Please don't establish yourself as the HELM traffic cop when you yourself have wandered off topic from time to time.

tagman · May 2006

Please don't establish yourself as the HELM traffic cop when you yourself have wandered off topic from time to time.

I agree . . . as we all have on occasion . . . and will from time to time. It is only natural. If it goes way off for too long, there is always the REAL cop, Pat, to get us back on track. Thank you Powders. Well said.

TagMan

tagman · May 2006

You are right Doc, we must win these guys with love and respect. They have been brain washed by god knows who into "VALUE" hysteria.

No value hysteria at all. Your "premium helm" "Lexus price hike" hysteria and non-stop grinding was the catalyst for most all of those recent "value" posts.

Now that you and the Doc are partners, I think you guys could easily alienate some of the more mainstream Lexus fans that don't relate to your extreme views, but nonetheless still appreciate Lexus vehicles. You guys are kinda like the extreme Lexus left-wing.

BTW, in your remark . . . your reference to God should have been deserving of a capital "G", IMO, don't you agree? Watch out for more police. :P

TagMan

blckislandguy · May 2006

Friday's WSJ or the NYT Weekend Edition had a Maserati lease ad. For (roughly) 10K down, 10K miles a year for 4 years and $1300 a month they would lease you a Q. No other charges were listed.

Lets view the total sum of the initial payment and the lease payments (i.e., 72K or so) as representing Maserati's expectation of the depreciation of the car over the next four years plus their profit plus a money factor. Lets assume that of the 72K that the lease will cost you, 12K of that is profit and money costs. This leaves 60K on the table for depreciation. It seems to me that Maserati is saying that they expect that their $112,000 car will be worth about 52K in four years. This figure seems reasonable to me but high. (I can't imagine anyone but the credit challenged really wanting a four year old Maser which would then be on its fourth clutch and pilot bearing.) This makes the S Class ownership and resale experience however boring a bargain.

tagman · May 2006

Nice analysis.

The question must be just how high those payments should go before they undermine the attractiveness of the lease itself.

You are paying closer attention to the resale of the Q lately, aren't you?

TagMan

ljflx · May 2006

Hey Steve - You and I are in 100% agreement on that one buddy.

designman · May 2006

Aye, get back to the TV... your boys are on.

ljflx · May 2006

They've also been advertisong an $899 deal with $3K down on a $90K+ Q qnd for a car at that pricepoint that is cheap. Maybe demand is falling off for this car.

ljflx · May 2006

I always have to DVR them and watch in about 90 minutes. Now if mention what happens in the interim period my boys will be over to see you.

merc1 · May 2006

I'll let your last post slide, since I made a mistake.

We'll hook up down the line. My beef is with Tag and LG.

M

merc1 · May 2006

Actually Steve the board says High-End Luxury "Marques" not just sedans. I think a discussion about F1 fits in there since Mercedes and BMW do compete at that level. We should be able to talk about HEL brands in general also.

M

drfill · May 2006

I have said nothing "Extreme" or "Left-wing".

The LS is at a crossroads in it's lifespan. Does it stand up and fight the Germans in the HELM class, or settle for a lower class.

Lexus has built the New LS and promoted it as fully competitive with the S-Class, why continue to sit at the back of the bus?

I believe Lexus can build a car as good as anything on the road, grow the brand, enhance prestige AND value, without making the car overpriced.

Given the car's new size, powertrain, and ability, a new price point would be appropriate.

Let the LS spread it's wings.

You either want Lexus to stay the course, or "Move Forward". There really isn't a wrong answer, that I can see. I vote on them Moving Forward.

DrFill

syswei · May 2006

Mr. Cho [Toyota vice chairman] also said Toyota is pushing to shrink major hybrid parts like batteries, inverters and electric motors to make them as small as one-quarter their current size....Toyota engineers involved in the Prius's redesign said they are trying to shrink not only the size of major hybrid components but also their weight and manufacturing costs.

source WSJ

syswei · May 2006

I think they've become complacent. The LX470 hasn't had a major redesign since I think the 1998 model year. I have noticed lots and lots of Range Rovers where I live and checked the sales numbers: YTD through April, LX470 1,992 units, Range Rover 3,691, Range Rover Sport 5,877. (The supercharged Sport is about the same price as the LX.)

designman · May 2006

I always have to DVR them and watch in about 90 minutes. Now if mention what happens in the interim period my boys will be over to see you.

They'd better not catch me in the kitchen when I'm cooking scungilli ;-)

I think the producers are setting them up to go out in a blaze of glory a la Barzini, Tataglia et al since it's getting close to curtain call for the show. Of course there will probably be an out for Tony.

designman · May 2006

Cayenne has 3918 YTD and have actually come back from the intial fuel price hit last year.

designman · May 2006

Mr. Cho [Toyota vice chairman] also said Toyota is pushing to shrink major hybrid parts like batteries, inverters and electric motors to make them as small as one-quarter their current size....Toyota engineers involved in the Prius's redesign said they are trying to shrink not only the size of major hybrid components but also their weight and manufacturing costs.

source WSJ

That's the intriguing part and major task. I think the success of hybrids in the near future is all contingent upon the goals stated here

designman · May 2006

The LS is at a crossroads in it's lifespan. Does it stand up and fight the Germans in the HELM class, or settle for a lower class.

Doc, you said a mouthful here... tacit admission that German HELMs rule the roost.

designman · May 2006

Well, for what its worth, I've been driving the Maserati coupe and spyder cambiocorsa since they came back to the US...

This is a surprise to me. Did I miss something? Please elaborate on your experience. Those engines sound fantastic. However, I don't like the Quattroporte interior. I think the design of the center stack is crude. E tu?

tagman · May 2006

You either want Lexus to stay the course, or "Move Forward". There really isn't a wrong answer, that I can see. I vote on them Moving Forward.

This is where you and I can't seem to agree. You (and Steve) keep suggesting that there is a need to make a change of some sort here or end up "staying the course". This implies that the current "course" is somehow a letdown for you, and is deficient in some way, or that it is not good enough, etc., etc. I totally disagree with that, and I'll explain in a moment.

Your statement also clearly indicates that there are TWO different strategies here to choose from. . . to "stay the course" or "move forward".

What is so ridiculous about this, IMO Doc, is that I see the current course as already moving forward . . . it is evolving very well, IMO, and you seem too anxious for an unnecessary leap ahead. There is no need to leap here.

The Lexus campaign is already a fast-moving highly-successful strategy, as we have discussed many times. In just the last decade consider the sales and production progress and achievements. Nothing short of miraculous, IMO.

Lexus is making very steady and confident steps forward already. Certainly Lexus needs to improve some areas, and I think that is the primary reason to move deliberately and not wildly.

Sorry, Doc, I truly do believe that to move Lexus even faster than they are already moving would be "hazardous to their health".

My vote is not the same as yours. I would vote to "stay the course" which is already quite brilliant and fast-paced enough, considering their ENTIRE picture, IMO. I believe that the Lexus revolution and evolution are on track.

TagMan

brightness04 · May 2006

Comparison (euphemism for fans bashing each other over the head :-) would be a lot easier if the carmakers were making identical products or at least products targetting exactly the same audience . . . except in reality they do not. E, 5 and GS are rough equivalents from the respective mfrs but no exact match-ups. E350 vs. 530i vs. GS300, and E550 vs. 550i vs. GS430/450h are roughly match-ups . . . there is nothing from MB or lexus that is even a close matchup for 525i, which accounts for close to 40% of 5 series sales.

Also, there is no GS wagon like the 5 or E wagons, so a Lexus buyer of mid-size wagons would have to go for RX, which dwarfs the sales any other model from any of the three HELM marques. Buyers of E,5 and GS are essentially looking for a mid-sized family car, for the well-heeled. For someone stepping into the Lexus dealership, GS, especially the GS300, is way overshadowed by the ES350 and RX350 from a value perspective . . . performance buyer would pick IS350 or wait for the GS450H. Before you laugh, the subsidized lease cost for 525i at $500/mo is really closer to that of the ES and RX, at $450/mo and $500/mo respectively, than to the GS and E at $600/mo or higher (well, when E is heavily not subsidized depending on the calendar of the year).

brightness04 · May 2006

Doc, you said a mouthful here... tacit admission that German HELMs rule the roost.

Depending on one's definition of "roost." The defining characteristic of a dying business is gradually defining an ever shrinking roost for itself to "rule." Not saying MB or BMW necessarily are doing that. Both are actually trying to expand in the non-HEL segment of their Marques. A and C class sales are an order of magnitude greater than E and S. Back to HEL, LS outsells both S and 7, so a case of Germans rule the existing roost certainly can not be made. If S and 7 have to move upmarket to define a new "roost" like the Vandals being chased from their home turf by Huns, Lexus has the option of deciding whether it's worth the chase/hunt :-)

tagman · May 2006

Lexus has made tremendous strides in both product development and image development over the years, but I wonder if the image development is starting to overshoot the overall product development.

There are two scenarios that can occur when the image and actual product are not in sync. First, if the product is better than the image, than the consumer is ultimately pleased BEYOND expectations. Not a bad thing at all, except that the marketers may be leaving money on the table. Second, if the image (hype in some cases) is better than the actual product, then this as a prescription for disappointment, as the product can not fulfill the expectations of the developed image.

In the case of Lexus, the point of commonplace knowledge has practically been reached regarding reliability and that's a good thing, but when the image development is so good that many consumers just expect Lexus to be the very "best" vehicles, there is room for concern. Are the ES, GS, SC and current SUV's really the "best"?

This discrepency between the image and the truth is very real, IMO and I think that it is fortunate for Lexus that the newest line of cars is an overall big improvement, but on the other hand it still falls short. There are still design weaknesses, performance weaknesses, and SUV deficiencies at this point in time, IMO. I am not trying to slam Lexus, as it is known that I respect them as a huge success that is well-deserved, but it is only right to keep a balanced overall perspective.

I believe that the Lexus image may have very well surpassed the OVERALL product line at this moment in time, contrary to the cheerleaders that think that Lexus is poised to make a dramatic leap.

IMO, Lexus desperately needs a newer and fresher line of SUV's and crossover vehicle. IMO, Lexus should make the ES a true Lexus! IMO, Lexus needs to continue to improve overall vehicle performance across the board. IMO, Lexus should categorically make the GS a performance LEADER . . . top in its class. IMO, the LS (swb) should have a genuine sports variant to truly compete with AMG and the M. IMO, Lexus needs to totally replace the SC with a REAL sports coupe, not a reconfigured LS.

These are more than enough issues to address if Lexus wants to live up to its image. The cheerleading is great, but ultimately it comes down to reality . . . and if the reality is not up to the image, then things can start to go south . . . even for Lexus.

Do I think that things will go south for Lexus? . . . no I do not, but I do think that all this just goes to show that there is plenty of homework to be done at Lexus, no matter what the Doc and Steve and other die-hard Lexicans think.

The new LS is going to be a smashing success, and the LS600hL will be a tremendous testimony to the capabilities of Lexus. The new IS is a great success as well, so to be balanced, the Lexus train will steadfastly move forward with tremendous power. I just want to make it known that, at least in my opinion, Lexus has a lot of work to do, and that there are still MANY very good legitimate reasons why so many people would rather buy other marques instead of a Lexus.

Lexus needs to make sure it lives up to the image it has created and address their many shortcomings.

TagMan

houdini1 · May 2006

How otherwise rational people could suggest that Lexus should raise their prices just so they could compete at the same price point as Mercedes is simply mind boggling. If certain people would like to see the LS and the S priced about the same, then it would make more sense to preach that Mercedes should lower their prices in order to compete with Lexus. The pressure is not on Lexus to raise prices. The pressure is on Mercedes to lower prices.

stevekilburn · May 2006

These are the hottest words in a long time on HELM forum. You stole my words, God bless you.

Unfortunately Tagman and Lj are just not getting it. Unless LS prices its products HEAD-to-HEAD with A8 and 7 how can it claim to be a true HELM. How can it? Thats the billion dollar question.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Why pray tell me, you are under this impression that we are asking LS to price itself head-to-head with S550. No one said so! You are trying to answer a question no one asked.

All along we said LS should be priced same as A8 or 7-series.

stevekilburn · May 2006

They rule the roost, by enjoying a free largesse which they dont deserve. Its all image, no substance. Let them learn how to make cars first. Our Cadillacs are much better than their Maybachs.

Read this article, it clearly says germans are all about image. No substance. Even though Quattroporte and LS (sport package) handle much better than 7-series, yet people are under the wrong impression that 7-series is the ATHLETE. They are deluded by BMW propaganda.

link title

The article is published in german newspaper so DONT BLAME ME.

stevekilburn · May 2006

A and C class sales are an order of magnitude greater than E and S.

Too much crackpot it seems. Not much sleep either. A and C -class selling 10 times more than E and S, when in fact the truth is C-class slaes are not even double that of E, and A-class sales are lower than C and E.

drfill · May 2006

Tag

Lexus doesn't have an image problem. For a company to become THAT successful, against such heady competition as Mercedes, BMW and GM, to ascend to a position of MARKET DOMINANCE in 10-15 years is LeBron-esque!

There is nothing wrong with Lexus, or how they are "addressing their shortcomings"!

The Gs will get a 300HP V6 and 350+HP V8, so it's performance value will be top-notch shortly. the car is still too soft in personna for ME (the edgy IS still too gentile for ME!), but the GS will improve shortly. I want a stick and a Sport Pkg., but I'm not holding my breath.

The LS will prove to be the dynamic match of the S550, if not the sportier 750iL, and if priced only $15k less, instead of the usual $25k less, should still easily outsell the S. So I don't see a real problem upping the ante when releasing as REVOLUTIONARY car such as this.

This is the greatest car Lexus has ever produced, not a conservative, evolutionary, kaisen improvement over the predecessor. This is a LANDMARK car!

I have faith that Lexus can sell THE SAME AMOUNT OF LS460 at $69k as they did the Ls430 at $57k. It's still a great value, much greater performance, features not available ANYWHERE, and a great track record to work from, with a happy customer base to easily work into a lather.

If Lexus hedges it's bets now, with this car, how can they ask $120-150 for a sports tourer? Where is the brand going? Growing?

There is nothing wrong with the ES! When it sells 50k instead of 70k, then ask what's wrong with the ES.

The RX and GX are studs. Plain and simple. You can't knock either one! How? They sell too well?

EVERY luxury car maker WOULD KILL to have the "shortcomings" Lexus has right now.

The REAL problem is they are victims of their own success. People expect perfection, and now great is not great enough.

I just think with sales growing 10% a year, a market adjustment is necessary on cars like the LS.

Hopefully, they will produce the HPX concept, to replace the LX. It's just a bigger RX with 3rd row seating. I would've had this done already, but......

DrFill

stevekilburn · May 2006

I believe you have made serious blunders in most of your Lexus related posts by implying that somehow "STAYING THE COURSE" means keep offering BEST in CLASS products at CUT-RATE prices. Why should Lexus not charge head-to-head with A8 and 7.

It will be immensely damaging to Lexus and LS that customers become ADDICTED to cut-rate pricing and always ONLY LEXUS to provide that largesse and not germans. The germans are not under any price pressure from Lexus because they know that people will buy their arrogant products and provide them with huge largesse, all the time while Lexus keeps its prices cut-rate. This is a mind-boggling hypocrisy.

BEST in class products deserve best in class pricing. It is nobody's business to PREACH Lexus the "CUT-RATE" mantra. Those who want cut-rate can buy Avalon. Its simple as that.

It confounds me how people have the nerve to say that LS despite being the best product among its competitors has to offer "VALUE" while the germans should charge GAZZILION dollars for fake products.

Tagman, dont be delusional. Wake-up and smell the roses. Your comments are beyond rational. STAYING the COURSE does not mean making customers addicted to cut-rate pricing, it means continuous improvement and that means playing head-to-head with A8 and 7.

anthonyp · May 2006

That certainly makes sense....Tony

pat · May 2006

This is getting way beyond old.

Could we move on? Please?? Surely you are more than a one-note contributor to this song?

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