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Comments
Just dont suggest that they are British in the UK!
Bill
BMW actually rose to spectacular fame as Europe's #1 luxury automaker a few years ago mostly because of the UK's particular affection for them.
In continental Europe, France for example, Mercedes are still far more popular. In Germany, I see a lot of BMW's but I see almost as many Audis. The only place in the world I have seen more than one Renault or Peugeot "luxury" sedan is in France. Where the politicos need something to travel around in and don't need to look unpatriotic.
In the UK, it seems to be rather egalitarian. BMW seems the most dominant, but Mercedes, Audi, and Jaguar have a lot of the market share too. London's so rich, that these cars often are the "mainstream" models you'll see on the road.
ljflx,
I know right. It's amazing they care that much about their cars, yet when it came time to put up the money they sat on their hands and checkbooks. Ahhh the British......
M
"The British kill me, they are so stuck on their cars, but when RR, Bentley, Jaguar and others got into trouble, their precious government did nothing."
"That is so ridiculous for them to be that uppity about RR and yet it belongs to a German company."
"Unbelievable"
"Hopefully VW won't turn them [Bentley] into Giant Passats"
... gave me the impression that you were unhappy with Bentley and others not being independent anymore. I see how you meant it now. The problem with these boards is that one cannot easily express such emotions as biting sarcasm or simple explanations etc. I was just explaining (in a happy tone) my ideas on the subject of these British cars when I had addressed you earlier, I wasn't trying to engage you in an arguing match or disagree with you. I was just trying to add some new information to the original idea. Read the post over again with happy thoughts:-)
Also, I can understand why you would say that we have "misunderstandings" with each other, but you and I have never really had an all out arguing match yet (or at least one I can think of). See you on the other boards!
Respectfully,
JagBoyXKR
By the way, "futile" was simply an adjective that seemed befitting in our AWD/FWD/RWD "discussion". I didn't know how easily little words could elicit such powerful emotions! I guess the keyboard is now mightier than the pen. Best regards.
M
That statement in your post is vague and anyone would easily assume of what you said was true so be careful of what you say next time. That was why I corrected you since it came from the horses mouth.
"My last post said that BMW has ownership of Rolls-Royce, just as the Premiere Automotive Group has ownership of Jaguar/Aston Martin, and Volkswagen AG has Bentley." in post #1451
Whatever.
V12Power,
"After I red Sweet Js post again, I wonder if he isn't under the impression that BMW is a British company, not German."
What? If anyone know anything about automaker's would know the origin by now. Since BMW owns Mini and Royce Royce (have control next year), BMW being full-blooded German is far-fetched nowadays. Just about everyone is being owned by someone or partnered with another automaker across the Atlantic and neighboring countries so saying BMW is full German is yesterday's news. Is the X5 and Z3 German cars? No, they are American made so you can call them German-American domestic.
BMW not 100% German like they use to be until they start making cars here and owned smaller car companies. Chrysler is not 100% American after they produce cars in Germany with the Crossfire in 2003.
J "CaddyLac"
What I had said in post number 1449 was true: Bentley is owned by Volkswagen AG, "The same is true of Rolls-Royce and BMW, and Jaguar/Aston Martin and the PAG". The verb I used was "owned", and when I said that "the same is true of Rolls-Royce and BMW", that means that Rolls-Royce is "owned" by BMW. That was why I had even said that I listed all of these makes in post 1449 in the same order of "company that is owned" followed by "company that has ownership", as to clarify the message for you.
You got it wrong twice now. Must I repeat myself again?
You said "That statement in your post is vague and anyone would easily assume of what you said was true..."
Yes, the reason I said it was because it is true. Vague? Maybe to you.
M
On a different note, I really don't care where they build the 2003 E, cause me in love all over again(!):
http://www.mbusa.com/microsite/2003e/index.jsp
M
Bill
Where's the jerk when ya need em? ;D
Bill
Cars that were priced in the "near Luxury" class without Luxury badges have always been failures.
Millenia
Diamante
Cressida
etc...
Bill
this is an example of the original Lexus LS400, which was basically a cheaper Japanese Mercedes.
In Europe people pay for status. They'll pass on a value deal and overpay for a name with status, even if the status car is arguably a lesser car. I think VW loses on both continents. Besides that I'll never understand why they are trying to undercut Audi to begin with. Can you imagine Toyota coming out with a car that would compete with a GS430 or LS430. Even the TLC is probably going to bite the dust, or change markedly because of the LX470. Can you imagine MB creating a Chrysler to compete with an E or S Class. The strategy makes no sense whatsoever. Audi, with a much more respected brand image can't sell 2500 A-8's in this country on an annual basis in the first place. I also agree with bentwoodvolvo - it looks like a nearlux car rather than a true lux car. A European Acura at best.
I think the car will meet will *some* success here due to it being a good product first, and if Automobile Mag is right about the price, a 12-cylinder car for 62K is an awesome concept. I agree with those who think this big VW is going to hurt Audi. If I can get a Phaeton W12 for 62K why would I pay 75K for a Audi A8 with only "8" cylinders? Very true. I don't think VW is really going to make much fuss about the Phaeton here, they'll just sell what they can and leave it at that. The problem with VW's strategy is that they are seemingly trying to turn VW into a full-fledged luxury brand, that simply won't work. Now if they just want VW to be represented in every segment, thats a brilliant idea. They must not forget that the Jetta and Passat have saved them in this country, they must not ever forget that. If VW revamps their dealers, customer service practices and treats a Jetta buyer the same as they would a Phaeton buyer their idea/concept would be realized.
I don't doubt for a min that it'll be a hit in Europe, but here it's the VW dealer that will hinder the car, more so than the car's price. But yes it does put Audi in a very tough position.
M
M
I disagree with you on the Phaeton - I doubt it will cut it in Europe or have sustaining power.
The next S-Class is years off, the current S is just about to get it's first face lift this fall. I'd wait until the actual car is shown before drawing styling conclusions on it. You always seem to find some resemblance between some Ford product and the S-Class. Do you think the LS430 looks like the Avalon?
M
M
As for the comparisons on cars I can see why you would think the Avalon and LS430 have similar looks but the Avalon lacks the grace and stately looks of the LS. Inside there is no comparison. I also wouldn't say the Avalon looks like the old S which is what the LS430 is accused of copying by yourself and others.
As for that 2006 (assuming that sketch is a good one) and even the current S, I simply think that as a car tends to a more sporty look, and away from a stately look, they are going into a class of design concepts where it will look like designs of other cars or vice-versa. It's just natural. That Ford five hundred and that S sketch look alike in the pictures to me though I'm sure the S will have a more massive look in person. I also think MB has to be careful here because the older richer buyer prefers a stately look to a sporty look. Some of these design concepts are aimed toward the younger rich crowd but with the Wall street boom over and the easy money days past that buyer may not be plentiful.
Lastly - the post Ejerod made on the S-class board is exactly what I feared would happen to me if I chose the S over the LS430. He's a lot more forgiving than I would have been. They definitely have to correct these problems. Did you also see the article on the 7 on that board. Scary - if you're a BMW fan.
On the next S-Class. I don't think getting sportier/sleeker will hurt the S-Class. The current car already broke away from years and years of upright, stodgy design and it's the best seller in the class worldwide, and still sells well in the U.S. The 2003 face-lift will only enhance it's following. The current car is to me the best looking large sedan on the road, especially in AMG guise.
Yes I read Ejerod's post. But he did buy another S-Class. I find that most interesting.
Yes I am BMW fan (German car nut period), but it pains me to say that I just can't bring myself to like the 7-Series. Remember the styling test I told you about? Well the BMW 7 failed it categorically. The car is extremely well made, brings new stunning engine and suspension technology to the table, but is as ugly as all getout. BMW was oh so close to having true category buster as everyone likes to say they have nowadays. One ugly car is almost unexcusable, but man if the copy this look to the 5 and 3 Series cars BMW is done.
M
Jaguar must be one very happy camper because I'm sure that's where many 7 buyers will head.
I went to look at the Mini Cooper yesterday (cutest little thing on the road, btw), so I had to look at the 7 one more time. The saleman I talked to advised that they are back ordered for 4 months, and he may have been telling the truth, there wasn't a 7-Series to be found.
M
This article is really disappointing (if not exactly surprising). I was (am) rooting for the 7 to be a success, and I want them to (a) fix the car's hideous tush and (b) drop i-drive as a standard feature. If they do that, and get their quality straightened out, they should be alright and I will consider a 7 when I trade in my LS. If they don't, BMW may not be there to consider (at least as a realistic competitor) by that point.
M
M
M
You may have seen my post on the LS board but if not I'll tell you that I saw a lot of SC430's in London last week (business not pleasure) and I was surprised at how popular they are over there. London is really a money town and it's got to be a MB bread and butter place also given the incredible amount of S-class cars you see on the road. I even came across the first and only Range Rover cab I've ever seen. But in general you see relatively few suv's on the road there given gas is quadruple our prices. By the way I saw a 7 on the road and the driver I had, who was quite an enthusiast, winced when he saw it. His only response to my question of why did he wince was that "it's quite an eyesore, isn't it". It was in silver also and that has to be it's worst color.
I know Dallas well and i know the area you mean. But it's awfully hot at this time of year. Hope you had some fun.
J "CaddyLac"
Yes Lexus has a hit I guess, not only in the U.S. but on a worldwide basis. I have to admit the SC430 in black with the black interior/dark wood is a very *interesting* car to me. I think it's so popular because of styling, for some it's downright gorgeous and secondly the price...well below it's chief rivials from England and Germany. Speaking of Range Rovers, my first sighting of the new one was also in Texas, it looks a lot better on the road than it did at the autoshows this past season.
sweetjeldorado,
Conspicuous by their absence were the high-end British cars. I didn't see one Bentley, just one truly old Rolls-Royce. No Aston Martins either. Only Britian's "regular" car was there in good numbers....Jaguar. This area of Dallas seems to be German/Japanese/Italian country.
M
And "exotic" ones too - I saw an Audi A3 1.8T there as well as a VW Bora and a Peugeot 406 station wagon. It was also the place i first saw a CTS and an 02 Altima.
Do you really think they will roll that design out to the 5 and 3 series?
Haven't seen the new Range Rover but on paper it looks pretty awesome. I never did care for the old one and in my town all you seem to see is LX470's and TLC's in the bigger suv's and various ML's and the RX300 (those things are everywhere it seems) in the smaller ones. The X-5 is also getting a good foothold.
ljflx,
Well I'd tell him to at least try an S55 or S8 out. He just might like them.
From what I've read, especially in the foreign mags this new design is being passed down to the 5-Series in somewhat diluted form. There are several articles in mags like CAR that say even BMW management is worried about the new 5 Series. Thats not good. Better days are ahead for MB and Audi I guess.
M
M
M
Ever since I first saw the SC430 and than the new SL I've decided I've got to get back into a sports car or in reality, a sports lux car. Plus this guy in my parking garage is always raving about his SC430 (black on black by the way) and one of my buddies just picked up the Jag XK8. I'm just about there with Lexus on swapping out my midnight pine LS430 for an SC430 when I switch jobs in September. My wife, who thought I was nuts at first, now can't wait till we do it. Which means this car may not be mine when all is said and done. Lexus is my most likely route because of the current lease situation and I do love the SC430. But I must admit I also love the Jag in that reddish brown color with the wheat roof. One of the best looking cars on the road. And I love the SL but its pricey. So many fabulous cars in this arena these days.
Have a great 4th and stay cool.
You have a good 4th also.
M
I don't know but coupes that are convertibles never hit the nail with me but in hard top form, it always hit the nail with me.
The only coupes that are convertible that is beautiful to me is the 330ci Convertible and aftermarket hardboot top Eldorado.
J "CaddyLac"
M
I am curious as to what the new Maserati Quattroporte looks like.
http://www.germancarfans.com/News.cfm?NewsID=2020709.001
M